Topic: Lionel Messi

[Xabi Gerrard]

Very difficult to say, as I tend to sort of separate the early 'pioneers' of very technical football from the giants who emerged once the sport properly exploded in the '60s and onward (when unedited filmed/televised matches became more commonplace) in my mind. A lot of the time the pitches were pretty crap - even in posh places on the continent like Spain, ha - and Di Stefano would come deep for the ball very often rather than wait to be fed, which is where you tended to see his skills at their best. I definitely think the claims of his being a 'complete' footballer hold up better for him than for some others around that era, because you really do get to see him dispossessing opponents in deep areas, doing a few stepovers and feints to evade challenges, then picking out forward passes that require real game intelligence and vision, along with yer fancy flicks an one-twos and the like. There's no doubting that he was enormously influential, as even today he's a joy to watch.

One thing I will say is that sometimes an golden oldie's reputation really does seem hyperinflated, most notably with someone like Stanley Matthews, who did not live up to his billing, at least from what I could see of his play. But Di Stefano and Puskas (and a few of the other Hungarians in that amazingly modern team) were two where you just go, "oh yeah, that's a proper footballer". It has little to do with their athleticism, they just look the business on the ball. I consider that in itself extremely valuable, as they were leading the way technique-wise in far more primitive eras than the likes of Cruyff plied their trade, and we all know how much of an impact he made on the game with his no-fucks-given brilliance.

There just isn't enough to put him at the very top though, for me. Same with Pele, just haven't got to see enough to elevate them above yer Maradonas and Messis; I believe in each of their roles as attackers, those two Argies are pretty peerless - influenced by their great predecessors certainly, but taking the art of creative forward play to new levels.

I have no issue with any arl fellas totally hero-worshipping Di Stefano though, he's up there with the best 'complete' players in history - it's certainly not highly arguable like anyone giving Duncan Edwards the benefit of the doubt that he was bound to fulfil his enormous potential to the fullest and beyond had he not died so tragically young. I would personally put him above Zidane, and I fucking love Zizou, me, so that's no small thing. But that isn't top 5 territory.

Cheers 

[_00_deathscar]

Yes, you're right. I don't know why I said that. He was incredible for PSV/Barcelona/Barcelona and yeah, he is one of the best of all time. One wonders if he hadn't had his injuries and health issues, how much better he would have been.

But it's very rare that it happens, to my mind, despite the frequency of certain young players being hyped up, it doesn't happen all that much where a player gets that label, much less at 22. I was just reminded of how great Messi was at such a young age that he was called one of the best of all time even then, and then the fact that he got even better over the next few years is just mad.

The Barcelona season is much feted, but he was even better in his first at Inter (without putting up the numbers). Much like Messi went from being a dribbling wizard to being an insanely good passer, Ronaldo was turning more into a playmaker.

[ggcc14]

When Messi takes a nothing team to 2 League titles and a European trophy in the space of 4 years come back to me.  Heck Even Cristiano has proved it at another team.

No one is assed about your opinion on it though, least of all Messi.

You do realise before Messi joined Barcelona they had 1 european cup and now they have FIVE? Has Maradona ever won a solitary European cup? Thought not.

Messi has won TWO trebles, domestic cup, league and european cup. We all know club football is the bread and butter of football, what we watch the majority of the year, every single year. Club football is clearly where you judge a players credentials, not a international cup tournament played once every four years, such a moronic yard stick to measure a player by.

I guess Eder is better than Messi too. 

It's almost as though people forget Maradona was a drug cheat who took concoctions to shred weight because he enjoyed being a gluttonous pig in Naples.

[The North Bank]

Probably the second best player in history.

Behind Kante.

[ggcc14]

Speaking of Muller, I'm curious, how does him turning up in 2010 & 2014 fit in with your theory of top level forwards not being able to play to their level in June/July after a gruelling season?

Well considering he scored just 13 league goals in both seasons before those major tournaments would suggest he wasn't performing at such a level Messi was, because he isn't anywhere near capable obviously. Hardly maintaining a goal a game kind of form for 9 months is he. 

Muller has only ever hit 20 league goals once, only ever mustered over 30 goals in all comps once (same season). Let's not embarrass ourselves here.

Gerd Muller isn't fit to be involved in such a debate, Thomas is just hysterical.

[McSquared]

Probably the second best player in history.

Behind Kante.

You forgot pogba. Messi's not fit to lace his boots

[Xabi Gerrard]

Well considering he scored just 13 league goals in both seasons before those major tournaments would suggest he wasn't performing at such a level Messi was, because he isn't anywhere near capable obviously. Hardly maintaining a goal a game kind of form for 9 months is he. 

Muller has only ever hit 20 league goals once, only ever mustered over 30 goals in all comps once (same season). Let's not embarrass ourselves here.

Gerd Muller isn't fit to be involved in such a debate, Thomas is just hysterical.

Much like a Messi shot in a World Cup knock out game, your understanding of the conversation is way off the mark. No one is saying either Muller is as good as Messi.

[ggcc14]

Much like a Messi shot in a World Cup knock out game, your understanding of the conversation is way off the mark. No one is saying either Muller is as good as Messi.

You argued that Muller was capable of putting in performances at the World Cup after a "gruelling season" a gruelling season consisting of him scoring 13 league goals? cool

[Xabi Gerrard]

You argued that Muller was capable of putting in performances at the World Cup after a "gruelling season" a gruelling season consisting of him scoring 13 league goals? cool

Knockout stage or difficult group games in June and July are too mentally exhaustive these days for ANY forward across the globe who scored regular club goals (18+) to take over and dominate every game.

Thomas Muller
2009-10: 48apps 19goals
2013-14: 51apps 26goals


ggcc14, if you care enough to comment on our tedious bullshit conversation, then at least bother reading it first.

[ElCapo]

We should also remember that Messi was only one very late Gotze goal from actually winning a World Cup. After that goal, he actually hit the bar. Fine margins.

No he didn't.  #fakenews

[ElCapo]

I love Messi, it's hard to find such an individual blessed with amazing technique, dribbling ability, superhuman sprinting ability in addition to other underrated faucets of his game like mental strength, poise under pressure, calmness etc.  He got elbowed in the face by marcelo and was spitting blood, but he didn't complain or dramatize his injury, or lose his rag.  Instead he just carried on the match trying to poke holes into Real's defense until it breached. 

Maradona was a superb player in his right, probably my favorite player ever growing up.  He did have a shorter career, but my God he was amazing.  He was scoring from 40-50 yards at Napoli, he was just outstanding.  And yes, he did play in a tougher, more defensively minded league Xxavi - I'm sorry you can't compare Serie A of the late 80's early 90's with La Liga.  It'd be like facing Juventus like defenses every fooking week. 

But Messi wins on longevity and mental strength.  If Leo could win a WC it would end the argument forever. He hasn't, so it goes on.

[child-in-time]

You do realise before Messi joined Barcelona they had 1 european cup and now they have FIVE? Has Maradona ever won a solitary European cup? Thought not.

Not Maradona's fault only winners were allowed to contest the European Cup back then, is it?

[Billy The Kid]

I'd still take Ronaldo over him

[Gerry Attrick]

I'd still take Ronaldo over him

Which one?

[Billy The Kid]

Which one?

The real one - Christiano

[Xabi Gerrard]

I'd still take Ronaldo over him

The real one - Christiano

[Corkboy]

The real one - Christiano

Jesus, Billy.

[Billy The Kid]

Jesus, Billy.

I heard he was good on crosses

He's a bit before my time though

[ggcc14]

The real one - Christiano

It's Cristiano and no he isn't. Certainly head and shoulders above the Brazilian Ronaldo though.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

The real one - Christiano

[Billy The Kid]

It's Cristiano and no he isn't.

Why isn't he?

He's the only player on the planet with a superior goal record to Messi, is he not?

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

Why isn't he?

He's the only player on the planet with a superior goal record to Messi, is he not?

Messi's playmaking abilities are so far ahead of C. Ronaldo's. Messi isn't playing up top, and hasn't done for a while. Barca are also going through a bit of a bad patch as Enrique isn't really doing such a great job. Considering that, I don't see how Ronaldo is better. He's scoring but I feel like he's contributing a lot less than before

[Billy The Kid]

Messi's playmaking abilities are so far ahead of C. Ronaldo's. Messi isn't playing up top, and hasn't done for a while. Barca are also going through a bit of a bad patch as Enrique isn't really doing such a great job. Considering that, I don't see how Ronaldo is better. He's scoring but I feel like he's contributing a lot less than before

Even when Messi was playing up top, Ronaldo was still hitting similar figures to him goal wise, was he not? Messi's playmaking abilities are better than Ronaldo's. I certainly won't dispute that. But I stand by what I said. If I had a choice between the two, then I'd pick Ronaldo.

[ggcc14]

Why isn't he?

He's the only player on the planet with a superior goal record to Messi, is he not?

That depends, Ronaldo is three years older. So he's played more games. If you look at things from a ratio perspective ala goals per game, Messi wins.

Messi has won more Ballon Dors, league titles, domestic cups and European cups.

Messi has scored 501 club goals while Ronaldo has 518. So Ronaldo scored 17 more goals in 132 games.

Messi has the most goals in a calander year 91, the most goals in a domestic season 50 and the most goals in a season 73. All time topscorer in La Liga, all time most assists in La Liga.

They both have lists as long as your arm of mind boggling statistics, but Ronaldo having marginally scored more goals in his career since it's been 3+ years longer doesn't qualify as one of them.

You don't judge a footballer just on his goals return, especially not one as insanely gifted as Leo Messi, that does a huge disservice to his incredible allround game.

[Billy The Kid]

Ronaldo is still better though

[ggcc14]

That is quite the compelling arguement you have there good sir.

[Billy The Kid]

That is quite the compelling arguement you have there good sir.

It's "argument" - and yes it is

[ggcc14]

Alright Bhilly the Khid, chill out.

[Billy The Kid]

Alright Bhilly the Khid, chill out.

You started it. Not me

It's Cristiano and no he isn't.

[ggcc14]

I know yeh 

Big game for Leo away to Espanyol tomorrow, he's scored 10 in his last 6 la liga matches. Bagging a brace in each of his last three domestic fixtures. Given how wank Suarez and Neymar have been of late, all the pressure will be on his shoulders again.. something he has dealt with admirably for the past 8 years or so.

[Samie]

I'd still take RONALDINO over both. Peak Dinho could do stuff Messi and Greasy still can't.

[ggcc14]

I'd still take RONALDINO over both. Peak Dinho could do stuff Messi and Greasy still can't.

Well he's won a world cup so kind of goes without saying don't you think? 

Seriously though you are right, Ronaldinho was a magician. Not sure that makes him a better allround player but he was certainly spectacular to watch at his peak, shame it didn't last anywhere near as long as Messi's or Ronaldo's. He won the Ballon dor, world cup and CL and just kind of gave up didn't he. Still clearly gifted but no longer with that desire to be the best and more of a desire to go and get sloshed with models.

[Corkboy]

As long as we can all recognise Zidane was the best ever, we'll be fine.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

The longevity and the quality that both Messi and Ronaldo have been able to sustain for the last 8 years is unmatchable imo by any other footballer/s in the history of the game. they're making 40,50 goal season look average, they've set standards that high and have for a long time.

Imo, Messi is the better player. Overall as a football player he brings more than Ronaldo and will continue to do so injuries permiting for a very long time. Ronaldo is in great shape and takes care of himself to the full extent, but I think Messi will have an extended career because of his ability to be a playmaker, to thread passes and play in midfield. His playmaking ability is vastly superior to Ronaldo's, his passing and vision is unmatchable imo.

Both are the best players I have seen and will be in my eyes for a very long time. Messi imo over Ronaldo.

[The 1989 Brit Awards]

Ronaldo is still better though

damn right, just watch this

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/qE774yQX6uQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/qE774yQX6uQ</a>

[_00_deathscar]

I'd still take RONALDINO over both. Peak Dinho could do stuff Messi and Greasy still can't.

Damn right - peak Ronaldinho was maybe not as 'good' as Messi, but my what a watch he was. Breathtaking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cnj64DsO8T8

Just assisted 3 goals last night for Barca legends vs Real Madrid legends, including a sublime no-look chipped pass for Giuly to volley in.

[Chris~]

Gerrard naming his kid after messi surely ends this petty debate.

[sinnermichael]

Can't believe he's turned down Manchester United to stay at Barcelona.

[The G in Gerrard]

Can't believe he's turned down Manchester United to stay at Barcelona.

[sinnermichael]

Messi's salary is set at €570,000 a week before tax. So after tax that's about €570, 000 a week.