Author Topic: Anxiety  (Read 53505 times)

Offline Beard

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #400 on: November 7, 2016, 07:26:51 pm »
Suffered from health anxiety for years. Get prescribed citalopram which is fantastic and works for me but then I stop after a few courses because the idea of being dependent on drugs scares me and of course the anxiety appears again.

A vicious cycle

Offline inky2

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #401 on: November 11, 2016, 09:08:25 pm »
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Offline Caligula?

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #402 on: November 18, 2016, 06:18:11 am »


Cheers for the responses, they're much appreciated and I will definitely take each of your suggestions into consideration.  :wave

I feel as if I'm able to better cope with it than before, but mind you I still have to resort to medication to get through any sort of formal speaking engagement.

Phenibut is excellent for social anxiety. Best used for odd occasions before a big presentation or social gathering (tolerance builds fast if used more than once a week generally). Also not really any side effects and much safer than any anxiety med I know of.

Never heard if it before you posted it here. But now that I have, I've been reading up on it through various forums and blogs. It seems as if it's really easy to get a hold of due to it being classified as a supplement and lot of people swear by it when it comes to speaking anxiety, but some warn that its side effects are even worse than any benzo they've ever taken before. Have you ever taken it, what are your experiences?

Offline LiamG

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #403 on: November 18, 2016, 08:14:42 am »
I'm on setraline now

Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #404 on: April 12, 2017, 08:01:32 pm »
Having another episode currently, won't go into it but it's related to an illness which is either real or not real and will either kill me or won't kill me.

So anyway i was looking around about hypochondria as this is something beyond doubt i have but not actually diagnosed as i haven't seen a therapist or anything. Then again is me having hypochondria just me making up another illness/disorder which doesn't exist, is that even possible?

So i found this > https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201001/hypochondria-the-impossible-illness

it was written a few years ago but basically nailed everything i go through and thought other people who worry obsessively about there health might like a read of it.

Offline Andy Hunter

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #405 on: April 12, 2017, 09:16:25 pm »
Having another episode currently, won't go into it but it's related to an illness which is either real or not real and will either kill me or won't kill me.

So anyway i was looking around about hypochondria as this is something beyond doubt i have but not actually diagnosed as i haven't seen a therapist or anything. Then again is me having hypochondria just me making up another illness/disorder which doesn't exist, is that even possible?

So i found this > https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201001/hypochondria-the-impossible-illness

it was written a few years ago but basically nailed everything i go through and thought other people who worry obsessively about there health might like a read of it.

I feel a lot of the time with anxiety, in my experience it's once you feel okay with a certain worry you find another one. As your neuropathways are used to having a background commentary of something to worry about while doing whatever your doing. Eating, working etc.

Whether hypochondria or not, i feel it is perfectly normal to worry about an illness whether you have it or not. It's anxieties way of seeing action today if your having a happy day. If that bit makes sense.

There's an app called headspace for meditation. About £3 a month with an anxiety pack. It really really reallly has helps purely anxiety as they explain anxiety thoughts as traffic but not running into the road. And makes you identify it as separate from yourself.

I would highly highly reccomend it. As that analogy is the tip of the iceberg. Really helps. Sorry for going off topic a bit. But definitely helps anxiety.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 09:21:11 pm by Andy Hunter »
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Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #406 on: April 12, 2017, 10:03:15 pm »
Thanks for that, I'll look into that app  :wave

Offline kesey

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #407 on: April 14, 2017, 03:17:44 pm »
Thanks for that, I'll look into that app  :wave

Yoga.. yoga... yoga !

Try pranayam which is the breathe side of the science of yoga. The asana's which is the stretchy stretchy side of yoga will benefit you too.

Go and find youserlf a good yoga teacher and practice .
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Offline kesey

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #408 on: April 14, 2017, 03:20:31 pm »
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

Offline XabiGerrard

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #409 on: April 16, 2017, 02:05:06 am »
Suffered with anxiety for most of my life since high school, it probably peaked during 6th form when I had panic attacks were I felt like my airways were going to close over. I ended up missing exams because of it. CBT and medication slowly started to make a difference for me but finding a girlfriend helped massively, as I've always struggled to believe in my self and always doubt myself in everyway. I gradually stopped the medication and felt like I was doing well but I still have anxious occasions but feel I can deal with them better than when I as younger.

The last few months have been tough, I split with my long term girlfriend which hit me hard. Obviously this has had a knock on effect with my anxiety but I don't want to go back to the medication if I can help it. I've been trying to push myself out of my comfort zone more as I would always avoid it in the past but it definitely helps in the long run.

I always find I need to prepare myself in my mind for new things, e.g meeting new people or new tasks in work. Whereas a 'normal' person can just do it without a second thought. I always over think things which is frustrating but it's another thing I've been trying to work on. It's good to know that there are other people who have gone through similar as it's easy to feel isolated. When my anxiety gets pretty bad, it's like my brain becomes hazy and I can barely string a sentence together.

Offline kesey

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #410 on: April 16, 2017, 05:14:43 am »
Yoga Yoga Yoga .
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #411 on: October 4, 2018, 09:13:13 am »
Managed to get referred for some high intensity CBT. Just waiting on a date now, hope it's not too long. I need out of hours though so probably will be.

Offline rob1966

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #412 on: October 4, 2018, 12:13:25 pm »
Managed to get referred for some high intensity CBT. Just waiting on a date now, hope it's not too long. I need out of hours though so probably will be.

Were you offered online CBT with phone support? I've had to refer myself back and they offered me doing the CBT online at home and then I will get a phone call from a therapist do discuss it.
« Last Edit: October 4, 2018, 04:34:15 pm by rob1966 »
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Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #413 on: October 4, 2018, 03:54:07 pm »
I have a longstanding issue with anxiety and the depression that can result when your life is so hampered and restricted. My diagnosis is Social Anxiety Disorder, formerly known as Social Phobia. This wrecked my formative years, my early socialisation, my education and it went on to ruin a number of relationships and any career prospects. As I'm sure other anxiety sufferers will know only too well, it also has the capacity to leave you bereft of any confidence and self-esteem. It left me basically living my life inside my head. Existing rather than really living. To be honest, I could write a book on the experience. There were so many associated issues along the way too. Binge (comfort) eating, alcohol problems such as heavy binge drinking in order to try to socialise. This brings its own set of problems to the table. Self-injury, such as cutting, burning. Self-destructive behaviours. Yet more depression as you see life passing you by whilst you stagnate in fear and stew in intense anxiety.

That's just a tiny bit of background, really. Things are a lot better these days but I still live with where this has all left me and each day is an attempt to move on and build something of a life for myself. There is no magic bullet for dealing with debilitating levels of anxiety. Also, it can be difficult to accept the fact that anxiety that is in proportion to the actual threat we face is actually adaptive and helps keep us alive and safe. By that, I mean it can be difficult to accept that we have to actually not only allow, but welcome certain levels of anxiety into our lives. New people, job interview, new environment, out of the comfort zone etc... anxiety in all those and many more situations is perfectly normal. I used to think that I wouldn't be better until I'd got rid of all anxiety, but that is impossible.

I've seen psychiatrists, had counselling. Solution-focused brief Therapy and CBT. I'm also now a qualified Person-Centred Counsellor. I say this because, in my experience, there is no single approach that is better than any other. This is also proved time and again in research. With that in mind I think a more holistic approach is a good thing. I used this myself over the years simply by taking and utilising anything and everything that I found useful to me personally. If yoga helps, then use it. If meditation helps, use it. It medication helps you gain a base to build upon, take it. In training we had to look at different therapeutic approaches, and even the ones I didn't have an affinity with often had a little nugget of theory I could utilise myself. I'm not really a fan of CBT, but I've had it and used bits of it to my advantage. Same with other approaches too. Basically, if it helps you, adopt it and use it.

For me personally, I found Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) to be the best fit for me. It's not widely practiced in this country so I basically taught myself, first through self-help books like The Happiness Trap by Russ Harris, then onto ACT text books. Whatever therapy a person feels is the best fit for them, there are lots of self-help books and text books on that approach to work through if desired. ACT appeals to me because it has Mindfulness as a component and I like that. It's also about working towards the things you value in life despite your issues rather than waiting until you have no issues before you try. Waiting can see you wait your entire life. But best of all for me, ACT is not about disputing thoughts and feelings. It's not about trying to reason with them or get rid of them. it's more about seeing them for what they really are and simply making room for them. So, it takes the conflict out of working with issues such as anxiety, negative thinking etc.. This is good, because most people with issues with anxiety will recognise the fact that the more you fight against anxiety, the more you fuel it. The more you don't want it, the more you have it. Eventually you end up with anxiety about having anxiety. Although it is extremely counter-intuitive, making room for anxiety and dropping the battle with it actually robs it of the fuel it needs, so it burns out far quicker. So the object of the exercise is to be aware of it and let it run its course without engaging with it. Not easy to do at all initially, but with practice it can make a real difference.

Anyway, I know this is a really complex subject with no quick fix, but I just wanted to add about that holistic approach because as I said, no therapeutic approach has ever been proven more effective than the rest. CBT just gets wheeled out so often because it is seen as cheap and quick to deliver. It has a good evidence base simply because a shed load of money was thrown into the research of CBT that has not been thrown at other therapies. Even with all that money thrown at it, CBT has never been proven to be any more effective long term than the other approaches. Actually, the most important factor in any therapy has been proven by research to simply be the quality of the relationship between therapist and client, rather than approach used.

Suppose my overall point is to take whatever is on offer and use anything that you can use that helps from the theory and experience. It can all add up in what is, for many, an ongoing, long term issue.

All the best to everyone in this thread.

The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #414 on: October 5, 2018, 12:18:02 pm »
Were you offered online CBT with phone support? I've had to refer myself back and they offered me doing the CBT online at home and then I will get a phone call from a therapist do discuss it.

No, although i know that's an option. I had a half an hour phone call with a woman and she said she will put me forward for face to face, I never had the option for phone cbt. Maybe because it's my first time having this kind of therapy.

Also on prozac now, takes a month to kick in apparently.

Sometimes I think have I done the right thing here.



Thanks for posting that Son Of Spion. Seems like you know what your talking about here. I'm just open to anything really but being as this is the first time I've actually been on medication and getting some sort of therapy is at least a start I guess. I'll see how I go from here.
« Last Edit: October 5, 2018, 12:27:33 pm by Upinsmoke »

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #415 on: October 5, 2018, 03:04:34 pm »
No, although i know that's an option. I had a half an hour phone call with a woman and she said she will put me forward for face to face, I never had the option for phone cbt. Maybe because it's my first time having this kind of therapy.

Also on prozac now, takes a month to kick in apparently.

Sometimes I think have I done the right thing here.

Thanks for posting that Son Of Spion. Seems like you know what your talking about here. I'm just open to anything really but being as this is the first time I've actually been on medication and getting some sort of therapy is at least a start I guess. I'll see how I go from here.

You're welcome. I know experiences on medication vary wildly, but I'd say in my case they saved my life. I was deeply suicidal (not for the first time) and was all over the place but medication did give me a sense of stability that I could build upon through counselling, self-help and other personal development avenues. I've never been on Prozac but the med I take (Escitalopram) is from the same family of drugs, Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs). I had a rough ride initially on the meds and actually felt worse for a while, but after around six weeks or so I noticed a positive difference and a more stable mood. As I say, this feeling of stability helped give me a base to build on from there. It's fair to say that there is a chance of side-effects initially with these meds, but if they do occur they usually fade once your system gets used to them.

I wish you all the very best with your CBT too. The CBT therapist I had was fantastic, and although it's not my preferred model of therapy I still gained plenty from it. Like I said earlier, I think it wise to take whatever is on offer, engage with it as best as you can, see it through then take anything out of it which helps then utilise it. Anything we pick up along the way which helps goes into our 'tool box' of strategies which we can always refer back to if/when needed.

I know it's all down to personal preference, but as a client I'd always prefer one-to-one therapy rather than online/telephone work. I just find it better for building a good rapport, and good rapport is important to good therapy. But again, anything that's on offer can have its benefits.

Anyway, all the best with it. I hope it helps.

« Last Edit: October 5, 2018, 03:06:21 pm by Son of Spion »
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Offline rob1966

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #416 on: October 5, 2018, 03:34:13 pm »
No, although i know that's an option. I had a half an hour phone call with a woman and she said she will put me forward for face to face, I never had the option for phone cbt. Maybe because it's my first time having this kind of therapy.

Also on prozac now, takes a month to kick in apparently.

Sometimes I think have I done the right thing here.

Thanks for posting that Son Of Spion. Seems like you know what your talking about here. I'm just open to anything really but being as this is the first time I've actually been on medication and getting some sort of therapy is at least a start I guess. I'll see how I go from here.

You have done the right thing, no question.

I've been on Prozac since February this year, when I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety - I also had anger issues. I did face to face sessions with a cracking woman and she helped me sort both my anxiety and anger issues over about 3 months. Depression is still bad, but starting CBT soon.

There is a depression thread on here, don't know if you have seen it. Lots of help and support in there https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=259330.0

Best of luck.
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Offline Red Beret

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #417 on: October 6, 2018, 11:24:01 am »
I'm looking at a very stressful few weeks.

Technically it should be fab.  I'm going to Rome the week after next for a week; and I've finally got a chance to move out of this Riverside infested apartment block I call home.

But I find travel stressful even at the best of times, especially going abroad.  I make myself do it because it's important to get out of my comfort zone.  And now I have to roll a house move into that as well.  The building's not even finished yet, but I had to give my notice in where I am already; and even though I've been assured I can retract the notice if I don't like the new place (it's not ready for viewing yet) or extend the notice (in case there's a delay finishing the property), I'm really struggling not to freak out.

My place is a tip and I need to pack so much stuff and do a ton of cleaning - on top of the usual day to day stuff like buying food and doing laundry.  I'll need to find someone who can help me move, and change all my addresses... plus I just applied for the warm home payment and I'm worried it will go the wrong address... It's a battle not to get brainlock.
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Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #418 on: March 7, 2019, 09:27:48 am »
Felt like I had an anxiety attack today morning. Woke up fine. But somewhere inbetween then and getting into the office, I had small arguments with my wife and my parents. I know I could have just stayed silent and let it pass but somehow I didn't find the composure to shut up.

I composed myself over the 20 minute commute. Thankfully I never let my anger get to me when I drive. On the contrary, I find driving has a calming and relaxing effect on me.

I feel kind of less restless now. The drive certainly helped improve my mood.  But I am unable to figure out what made me react the way I did today morning. I am not sure if its anxiety or restlessness or whatever compulsion it is to be right all the time. But I want to know what it is so that I dont repeat it again, knowingly or unknowingly.

I am not sure what it is but the last time I felt something like it, my friend who was studying for doctor, told me it was an anxiety attack. And hence this thread.

Does anyone know anything about it?

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #419 on: March 7, 2019, 07:08:23 pm »
Felt like I had an anxiety attack today morning. Woke up fine. But somewhere inbetween then and getting into the office, I had small arguments with my wife and my parents. I know I could have just stayed silent and let it pass but somehow I didn't find the composure to shut up.

I composed myself over the 20 minute commute. Thankfully I never let my anger get to me when I drive. On the contrary, I find driving has a calming and relaxing effect on me.

I feel kind of less restless now. The drive certainly helped improve my mood.  But I am unable to figure out what made me react the way I did today morning. I am not sure if its anxiety or restlessness or whatever compulsion it is to be right all the time. But I want to know what it is so that I dont repeat it again, knowingly or unknowingly.

I am not sure what it is but the last time I felt something like it, my friend who was studying for doctor, told me it was an anxiety attack. And hence this thread.

Does anyone know anything about it?

It's difficult to say without knowing the full context of what happened but it doesn't sound like a classic anxiety attack to me.

I've had many anxiety/panic attacks over the years and symptoms can vary, as can their severity, but they are outlined here in this link - https://www.anxietycentre.com/anxiety-attack-symptoms.shtml

You may get a more accurate picture of whether or not it was an anxiety attack after reading through that.

If you believe it wasn't actually an anxiety attack, maybe you have been tired and or stressed recently and this has just left you a bit irritable?
You mentioned a compulsion to be right all the time. Sometimes when people feel that way it can be very easy to become frustrated with those around them, and bickering may result.

Regarding anxiety generally. If there are any ongoing issues that are stressing you out and worrying you, then maybe talking those things through with relevant people and getting them addressed may help alleviate it.

Anyway, take care of yourself.
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Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #420 on: March 8, 2019, 10:55:01 am »
Thanks for the reply.

I went through the link. And I had these. Not all at the same time. Over a period of 4-5 hours starting at breakfast.

A feeling of overwhelming fear
A surge of doom and gloom
An urgency to escape
Feeling detached from reality
Burning skin

Confusion
Depersonalization (feeling detached from reality, separate from one-self, separate from normal emotions)
Derealization (feeling unreal, in a dream-like state)
Emotional upset
Butterflies in the stomach
Sudden urge to go to the bathroom
Feel like crying

I am not sure if I was anxious. But then since my friend suggested it could be one, I thought if there was a term for it, if it was not anxiety.

You mentioned a compulsion to be right all the time. Sometimes when people feel that way it can be very easy to become frustrated with those around them, and bickering may result.

But I have always "not allowed" it to run my everyday life. Because of my experiences in life, I do find it annoying (sometimes) when some people take life for granted but I have come to make peace with the fact that its their life. But yesterday, there was no conversation, with either my wife or my parents, that made me revisit this particular nasty side of me. I got up like I always do, I had breakfast like I always do, and as I was starting to work some confusion and detachment to reality started. I felt like crying. Then burning skin until I got into the car and started driving. I felt calm during the drive. I actually wanted to take a longer route to work to experience more serenity. But I had a 9am meeting. And then at work, I felt like going to bathroom but didnt do any business once I got there. Happened 5 or 6 times. And then felt upset and butterflies in stomach and an urge to go away somewhere. Usually I dont act upon such impulses when I know they are just impulses.

So yeah. I went home after work and I seemed to be fine. I spent the evening trying to figure out how to put them in words because what I went though, I wasnt able to find a cause or reason for how I felt.

I feel better now after a long 8 hour sleep. And usually I dont pay heed to such mood swings. Because they usually wear off after a couple of hours and all I need to do is continue to work on what I was working on before the swing. But yes. Thanks for your reply.  Appreciate it.

Offline LiamG

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #421 on: January 7, 2020, 07:16:02 pm »
Anyone recommend any decent books for helping deal with anxiety and boosting confidence? I've been looking into the whole "rewiring the brain" stuff and if it's possible then i definitely want to give it a go

Offline UntouchableLuis

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #422 on: January 7, 2020, 09:02:34 pm »
Anyone recommend any decent books for helping deal with anxiety and boosting confidence? I've been looking into the whole "rewiring the brain" stuff and if it's possible then i definitely want to give it a go

Matt Haig - Notes on a nervous planet is good. Helped me when I went through a bad patch due to work a few years ago.
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Offline Lady_brandybuck

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #423 on: January 8, 2020, 02:48:32 am »
Anyone recommend any decent books for helping deal with anxiety and boosting confidence? I've been looking into the whole "rewiring the brain" stuff and if it's possible then i definitely want to give it a go

Someone here once recommended me The Tao of Pooh and it helped tons to calm down and let things flow, which help wonders if you're an anxious person.

This extra advice, even though is not a book, is a great exercise to reduce anxiety, it's called Jacobson relaxation technique. It is a good tool to have when you feel like the anxiety is getting out of control.

Hope it helps!
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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #424 on: January 8, 2020, 08:05:11 am »
Anyone recommend any decent books for helping deal with anxiety and boosting confidence? I've been looking into the whole "rewiring the brain" stuff and if it's possible then i definitely want to give it a go

This is a fantastic book by a great Aussie psychologist about CBT/NLP.

https://www.booktopia.com.au/change-your-thinking-sarah-edelman/book/9780733332241.html

Also worth having a flick through is this by Sarah Wilson

https://www.booktopia.com.au/first-we-make-the-beast-beautiful-sarah-wilson/book/9781743535868.html

For a quick read I found this extremely helpful. In a nutshell it says anxiety monster is always going to be around trying to pull you into a hole. The objective is to let go of the ropes that can pull you and understand that it's on the opposite side of the hole so it can't get you and without ropes it can't pull you in.

https://www.thecareerpsychologist.com/tug-of-war-with-the-anxiety-monster/

And all the world is football shaped, It's just for me to kick in space. And I can see, hear, smell, touch, taste.

Offline Crimson

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #425 on: January 10, 2020, 09:05:24 pm »
Have had some form of social anxiety for most of my life, but feel it has really evolved into something more the last couple of years.

The turning point was a really bad physical reaction (throwing up, hot flashes etc.) which came "out of nowhere", in a perfectly mundane environment and situation, but of course in public.

This has made me "expect" an anxiety attack in most social situations where I'm either; the centre of attention or are, in my head at least, expected to make an impact. OR in situations where there is "no escape", like when flying, taking the bus, going out to eat with others etc.

This is especially tiresome as I have a job which demands a high degree of social interaction, meetings, team work, presentations etc. But this is also what I think will help me in the long run. Forcing myself to be exposed and facing the challange head on should normalize the situations again for me.

I've had recent incidents where I've started my job interview and meetings with smaller attacks. Where my throat dries up, my heart is pounding, I feel sick to my stomach, but I've come through by dealing with it there and then, instead of avoiding the situation.

Whenever I feel an attack coming, I focus on my breathing. Deep and slow. I also agree with those that highlight physical exercise as a prevention method. Firstly, you get to "learn" to deal with a high pulse and that it will pass. Secondly, you feel more relaxed in mind and body when some of the energy spent on worrying is used for activities.

Still worried about my trip to Liverpool and Anfield though  ;)

PS! Wrote this on my phone, so sorry for any bad grammar. 
I have no idea what I’m taking about

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #426 on: January 10, 2020, 09:32:39 pm »
Someone here once recommended me The Tao of Pooh and it helped tons to calm down and let things flow, which help wonders if you're an anxious person.

This extra advice, even though is not a book, is a great exercise to reduce anxiety, it's called Jacobson relaxation technique. It is a good tool to have when you feel like the anxiety is getting out of control.

Hope it helps!

 :wave

Nice to hear it worked LB.

That book should be given out in schools .

Hope you are well.
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #427 on: January 11, 2020, 04:50:09 pm »
Have had some form of social anxiety for most of my life... <Snip>

Hi mate. I feel your pain on this. I'm a lifelong sufferer of Social Anxiety Disorder which has also gone on to cause other issues such as depression, self-injury*, excessive drinking*, vastly limited life/job opportunities, very poor educational attainment, suicidal ideation, relationship issues etc...

My issues with severe facial blushing when anxious drove me to extreme lengths of avoidance because it's something so visible and people would point it out. I was so suicidal over it my GP, on my request, sought out a surgeon who would perform an Endoscopic Transthoracic Sympathectomy (ETS) operation on me. This cuts the sympathetic nerve chain along the spine and can stop you blushing. Problem is, where they have to cut is so very close to a part of the chain that affects the eyes. You can end up with Horners Syndrome, where the eyelid permanently droops and can require plastic surgery to correct. It also stops you sweating above the nipple-line so, you're body has to sweat excessively elsewhere to regulate body temperature. After weighing up the pros and cons I decided against the op. As the surgeon said, it's a physical attempt to try to address what is a psychological problem. A sledgehammer approach at cracking a troublesome nut. I only post my account there so you know I get the gravity of your feelings on the subject. It wrecks lives.

I had to write my entire school education off because I simply couldn't cope with the classroom environment. I've walked out of jobs in sheer terror and panic and never gone back. With this in mind I have to say that I hope you know how remarkably well you have done to get where you are in life when having to deal with this along the way. You must have some pretty effective coping strategies and no shortage of guts and determination.

You are right about keeping your exposure levels up, despite it being difficult. The worst thing you can do when you have SA is to retreat inwards. Once avoidance sets in, it's a downward spiral. The less you do, the less you feel able to do. You can retreat into your home, then eventually into your own head. I know that one because I lived my entire life inside my own heads for many years. The longer you do that, the harder it is to come out again. By sticking in there and forging ahead regardless you have definitely done the right thing.

I've no idea if you've had any treatment for SA or if you've gone down the therapy or self-help route at all. One book (you may already know all about) SA sufferers tend to find useful is 'Overcoming Social Anxiety and Shyness' by Gillian Butler.  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Overcoming-Social-Anxiety-Shyness-Gillian/dp/1849010005
This uses the Cognitive Behavioural Therapy approach to the issue. I know many people find it helpful. There are other books out there on the subject which use different approaches too.

It;'s also worth highlighting here that anxiety is completely normal. We wouldn't actually survive without it. We need the fight, flight or freeze response and it's been with us for as long as humans have roamed the earth. It's also entirely normal to feel a certain level of anxiety in interviews, when meeting new people, when presenting, in meetings where the focus falls on you. In such situations it's best not to fight against anxiety, but rather understand that it's quite natural then let it run its course. It always does so, as the fight, flight, freeze response kicks in very quickly but burns out quickly too. The only thing that keeps it going for longer is if we fuel it further by having anxiety over having anxiety. So, it's best to accept its presence, make room for it, and let it burn out as you carry on doing what you are doing.

Personally speaking, I find the Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) approach helps he more than any other. It is Mindfulness based and teaches you to make room for things you cannot change, whilst you get on with doing the things in life you value regardless of the discomfort involved. This works so well for me when it comes to anxiety. The problem with things like anxiety and fear is that you can further fuel both by being anxious and fearful over them. You then fully expect an anxiety attack to roll up when you least want it to. In turn, this guarantees the arrival of the attack you desperately feared.

Ironically, the best way to cope with anxiety, in what we know are not actually life-threatening situations, is to actually be willing to have it. Now I realise how counter-intuitive that sounds but it is actually rather effective. With anxiety, the more you fear it, the more you have it. The more you fear a panic attack, the more likely one is to appear. So, if we are willing to make room for anxiety and not fear it, we rob it of the fuel it needs to burn. It's quite a brave move to let yourself be open to it and make room for it, but if you do, it will dissipate far quicker. If anxiety shows up, ok, just acknowledge it, but make that bit of room for it and let it burn out. In the meantime, carry on with what you are doing.

ACT doesn't ask people to put up with feelings they don't like just for the hell of it. It's more about making room for those feelings while you get on with doing all the things you value in your life. I find it better than CBT in that CBT always seems to have you in conflict with feelings and thoughts by constantly trying to rationalise them and dispute their validity. With ACT, you don't fight your thoughts or feelings. You acknowledge them, let them come and go, but do so while living a life you value.

Of course, other things can help with anxiety generally. Give caffeine a miss. Get enough sleep and relaxation. Make time for yourself and those you love. Eating well and exercise all come to mind too, as does breathing exercises, mindfulness exercises and pretty much anything else you find that personally enriches your day to day living.

Your trip to Anfield is a good example of making room for uncomfortable thoughts or feelings that might bring on anxiety, whilst doing something in your life that enriches it and which you value. So, if we have to deal with discomfort, at least make it worth it.  :) We make room for the angst in order to live the life we value.

I hope some of this makes some sense for you. I did an even longer post in reply last night but I was so full of cold, with eyes and nose streaming that I couldn't really articulate it that well. I scrapped it in the end. Hopefully this one is a little better, although I'm still feeling like crap.

Social Anxiety at disorder levels of severity is horribly crippling. I know that to my cost, and could write an entire book on the subject. A lot of people don't understand it and think it's just shyness. It's actually not though. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I feel for you and everyone else affected by it.

Anyway, I hope this is not too long and rambling to read, and I hope it makes some sense to you in some way.

Take care, and all the best to you.



*Maladaptive coping strategies.



The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #428 on: January 11, 2020, 09:32:30 pm »
:wave

Nice to hear it worked LB.

That book should be given out in schools .

Hope you are well.

It did man, as a teacher I would love it if my students could read it. All is well and working for better things over here and the anxiety is in as much control as possible.

I hope you are doing well as well.
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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #429 on: January 11, 2020, 09:57:06 pm »
It did man, as a teacher I would love it if my students could read it. All is well and working for better things over here and the anxiety is in as much control as possible.

I hope you are doing well as well.

Nice to hear it LB.

The things that you seek you already have by the way . Or ... if you think you don't have them then in the words of Rumi ... the things that you seek are also seeking you.

And... breathe .

All is the way it should be here and that's when I accept ' how it is ' and not ' what you think it should be ' . Squares and round pegs an all that.

So... back to that bear again....


Inner Nature, and with the natural laws operating around us, we reach the level of Wu Wei. Then we work with the natural order of things and operate on the principle of minimal effort. Since the natural world follows that principle, it does not make mistakes. Mistakes are made–or imagined–by man, the creature with the overloaded Brain who separates himself from the supporting network of natural laws by interfering and trying too hard.

When you work with Wu Wei, you put the round peg in the round hole and the square peg in the square hole. No stress, no struggle. Egotistical Desire tries to force the round peg into the square hole and the square peg into the round hole. Cleverness tries to devise craftier ways of making pegs fit where they don’t belong. Knowledge tries to figure out why round pegs fit into round holes, but not square holes. Wu Wei doesn’t try. It doesn’t think about it. It just does it. And when it does, it doesn’t appear to do much of anything. But Things Get Done.

When you work with Wu Wei, you have no real accidents. Things may get a little Odd at times, but they work out. You don’t have to try very hard to make them work out; you just let them. [...] If you’re in tune with The Way Things Work, then they work the way they need to, no matter what you may think about it at the time. Later on you can look back and say, "Oh, now I understand. That had to happen so that those could happen, and those had to happen in order for this to happen…" Then you realize that even if you’d tried to make it all turn out perfectly, you couldn’t have done better, and if you’d really tried, you would have made a mess of the whole thing.

Using Wu Wei, you go by circumstances and listen to your own intuition. "This isn’t the best time to do this. I’d better go that way." Like that. When you do that sort of thing, people may say you have a Sixth Sense or something. All it really is, though, is being Sensitive to Circumstances. That’s just natural. It’s only strange when you don’t listen.

He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

Offline kesey

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #430 on: January 11, 2020, 10:06:44 pm »
Just read the Tao of Pooh bit again.

That.... things may get a little odd at times never fails to give me a giggle.

  ;D
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #431 on: January 11, 2020, 10:12:38 pm »
Hugs to everyone.  Not feeling so great so sharing some love helps.
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #432 on: January 11, 2020, 10:39:32 pm »
Hi mate. I feel your pain on this. I'm a lifelong sufferer of Social Anxiety Disorder which has also gone on to cause other issues such as depression, self-injury*, excessive drinking*, vastly limited life/job opportunities, very poor educational attainment, suicidal ideation, relationship issues etc...

My issues with severe facial blushing when anxious drove me to extreme lengths of avoidance because it's something so visible and people would point it out. I was so suicidal over it my GP, on my request, sought out a surgeon who would perform an Endoscopic Transthoracic Sympathectomy (ETS) operation on me. This cuts the sympathetic nerve chain along the spine and can stop you blushing. Problem is, where they have to cut is so very close to a part of the chain that affects the eyes. You can end up with Horners Syndrome, where the eyelid permanently droops and can require plastic surgery to correct. It also stops you sweating above the nipple-line so, you're body has to sweat excessively elsewhere to regulate body temperature. After weighing up the pros and cons I decided against the op. As the surgeon said, it's a physical attempt to try to address what is a psychological problem. A sledgehammer approach at cracking a troublesome nut. I only post my account there so you know I get the gravity of your feelings on the subject. It wrecks lives.

I had to write my entire school education off because I simply couldn't cope with the classroom environment. I've walked out of jobs in sheer terror and panic and never gone back. With this in mind I have to say that I hope you know how remarkably well you have done to get where you are in life when having to deal with this along the way. You must have some pretty effective coping strategies and no shortage of guts and determination.

You are right about keeping your exposure levels up, despite it being difficult. The worst thing you can do when you have SA is to retreat inwards. Once avoidance sets in, it's a downward spiral. The less you do, the less you feel able to do. You can retreat into your home, then eventually into your own head. I know that one because I lived my entire life inside my own heads for many years. The longer you do that, the harder it is to come out again. By sticking in there and forging ahead regardless you have definitely done the right thing.

I've no idea if you've had any treatment for SA or if you've gone down the therapy or self-help route at all. One book (you may already know all about) SA sufferers tend to find useful is 'Overcoming Social Anxiety and Shyness' by Gillian Butler.  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Overcoming-Social-Anxiety-Shyness-Gillian/dp/1849010005
This uses the Cognitive Behavioural Therapy approach to the issue. I know many people find it helpful. There are other books out there on the subject which use different approaches too.

It;'s also worth highlighting here that anxiety is completely normal. We wouldn't actually survive without it. We need the fight, flight or freeze response and it's been with us for as long as humans have roamed the earth. It's also entirely normal to feel a certain level of anxiety in interviews, when meeting new people, when presenting, in meetings where the focus falls on you. In such situations it's best not to fight against anxiety, but rather understand that it's quite natural then let it run its course. It always does so, as the fight, flight, freeze response kicks in very quickly but burns out quickly too. The only thing that keeps it going for longer is if we fuel it further by having anxiety over having anxiety. So, it's best to accept its presence, make room for it, and let it burn out as you carry on doing what you are doing.

Personally speaking, I find the Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) approach helps he more than any other. It is Mindfulness based and teaches you to make room for things you cannot change, whilst you get on with doing the things in life you value regardless of the discomfort involved. This works so well for me when it comes to anxiety. The problem with things like anxiety and fear is that you can further fuel both by being anxious and fearful over them. You then fully expect an anxiety attack to roll up when you least want it to. In turn, this guarantees the arrival of the attack you desperately feared.

Ironically, the best way to cope with anxiety, in what we know are not actually life-threatening situations, is to actually be willing to have it. Now I realise how counter-intuitive that sounds but it is actually rather effective. With anxiety, the more you fear it, the more you have it. The more you fear a panic attack, the more likely one is to appear. So, if we are willing to make room for anxiety and not fear it, we rob it of the fuel it needs to burn. It's quite a brave move to let yourself be open to it and make room for it, but if you do, it will dissipate far quicker. If anxiety shows up, ok, just acknowledge it, but make that bit of room for it and let it burn out. In the meantime, carry on with what you are doing.

ACT doesn't ask people to put up with feelings they don't like just for the hell of it. It's more about making room for those feelings while you get on with doing all the things you value in your life. I find it better than CBT in that CBT always seems to have you in conflict with feelings and thoughts by constantly trying to rationalise them and dispute their validity. With ACT, you don't fight your thoughts or feelings. You acknowledge them, let them come and go, but do so while living a life you value.

Of course, other things can help with anxiety generally. Give caffeine a miss. Get enough sleep and relaxation. Make time for yourself and those you love. Eating well and exercise all come to mind too, as does breathing exercises, mindfulness exercises and pretty much anything else you find that personally enriches your day to day living.

Your trip to Anfield is a good example of making room for uncomfortable thoughts or feelings that might bring on anxiety, whilst doing something in your life that enriches it and which you value. So, if we have to deal with discomfort, at least make it worth it.  :) We make room for the angst in order to live the life we value.

I hope some of this makes some sense for you. I did an even longer post in reply last night but I was so full of cold, with eyes and nose streaming that I couldn't really articulate it that well. I scrapped it in the end. Hopefully this one is a little better, although I'm still feeling like crap.

Social Anxiety at disorder levels of severity is horribly crippling. I know that to my cost, and could write an entire book on the subject. A lot of people don't understand it and think it's just shyness. It's actually not though. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I feel for you and everyone else affected by it.

Anyway, I hope this is not too long and rambling to read, and I hope it makes some sense to you in some way.

Take care, and all the best to you.



*Maladaptive coping strategies.





Great post mate .

I do feel this bit of it though is so true.

Ironically, the best way to cope with anxiety, in what we know are not actually life-threatening situations, is to actually be willing to have it.

In otherwords ... acknowledge it and surrender to it. I reckon surrendering to pain , anxiety , heartache or whatever is the first steps to inner peace and liberation. Iam going into my own personal journey here but that things that have tried to destroy me the past few years I actually went through a phase ( and Iam still aware of the pain it can cause me )  ... but I started giving thanks to it and now ' I ' feel better for bowing or surrendering  down to it all ... accepting it and not fighting it . It makes you , me and everyone else stronger and more complete as I feel that we can help others too. Experience an all that.

Could go on all night about but I reckon it's MOTD time.


He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #433 on: January 12, 2020, 01:41:37 am »
Great post mate .

I do feel this bit of it though is so true.

Ironically, the best way to cope with anxiety, in what we know are not actually life-threatening situations, is to actually be willing to have it.

In otherwords ... acknowledge it and surrender to it. I reckon surrendering to pain , anxiety , heartache or whatever is the first steps to inner peace and liberation. Iam going into my own personal journey here but that things that have tried to destroy me the past few years I actually went through a phase ( and Iam still aware of the pain it can cause me )  ... but I started giving thanks to it and now ' I ' feel better for bowing or surrendering  down to it all ... accepting it and not fighting it . It makes you , me and everyone else stronger and more complete as I feel that we can help others too. Experience an all that.

Could go on all night about but I reckon it's MOTD time.
Cheers. 😊

Yep, I think we can spend a lifetime fighting anxiety, and all it creates is yet more anxiety. Making room for uncomfortable thoughts and feelings cqn make immense difference. That approach got me through multiple bereavements. As hard as it was/is I let myself be open to the pain rather than try to block it out. It hurts like hell, of course, but it helped me work through the process an awful lot quicker and made sure I didn't get stuck in my grief.

I think we have to learn to see the difference between things we have influence over and things we don't. Then, address what can be addressed but make room for what can't. Being willing to make that room is actually rather liberating. In a way, it takes the power back.
The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #434 on: January 12, 2020, 04:17:01 pm »


That's an excellent post. The line about retreating into your home and then your head, that's been me in a nutshell the past few years. I love to coup up in a room away from the world but the more I do, the more the self -evaluation and self-criticism rears its head.

Glad that others have similar thoughts and feelings and can manage it and get on with their lives.
You're still the one pool where I'd happily drown

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #435 on: January 12, 2020, 06:02:57 pm »
That's an excellent post. The line about retreating into your home and then your head, that's been me in a nutshell the past few years. I love to coup up in a room away from the world but the more I do, the more the self -evaluation and self-criticism rears its head.

Glad that others have similar thoughts and feelings and can manage it and get on with their lives.
Thank you.

The retreat into ourselves can feel like the right thing to do. It offers what we feel is a safe place. A more comfortable place. But it can easily become a downward spiral where your life shrinks ever smaller. The less we do, the less we feel capable of doing. The less we socialise, the less able we feel when it comes to socialising. The more we practice avoidance, the more avoidant we become. So, our safe place can eventually become our personal prison. A prison we get trapped in and ruminate in.

I totally get you when you talk of self criticism. I spent decades beating myself up over not being good enough. I only really got over that by accepting my flaws. I looked around me and saw some utter scumbags seemingly doing ok in life and being quite content with who they were. I also saw lots of really good people too, but realised they all had their flaws, their problems, their personal issues. I sort of realised it is ok to be flawed, because everyone is. It's the nature of being human. I now just try to be a decent human being, warts and all. Do my best, and just let others take as they find me. I do my best, and if people like me then fine. If they don't, then fine too. We can't please everyone, can we?

Self-reflection is no bad thing, and taking time out when needed is no bad thing either. But we have to use it wisely. Rather than use it to beat ourselves up we need to use it to be honest with ourselves. If we have flaws we can work on, then we can take action to work on them. If we have qualities (yes, we all have them) we can identify them and work out how to use them to enrich our lives.

It's also worth acknowledging that we often have far bigger expectations of ourselves than we do of others. But is that really fair? We don't expect others to be perfect. I think we just want others to do right by us. Just do their best. So why do we put far bigger expectations on ourselves? We allow others their imperfections, but often not ourselves. Self criticism is ok when it's fair and done in order to identify ways of improving our lives, but retreating I side our heads in order to end up beating ourselves up is counter productive and ultimately destructive. I think once we recognise that the retreat into ourselves and our comfort zone is something of a trap, we can take steps to break out of it again and grow our lives again rather than shrink them down.
The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

Offline damomad

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #436 on: January 12, 2020, 08:38:26 pm »


Yes to all of this.

Something I've become more aware of recently is having full scale arguments in my head. These could go on for 10/20/30 minutes. Typically it's something that has upset me in work, I'll play the scenario over and over, things I want to say to the person, then I'll project thoughts and feelings onto the other person. Most of the time in these thoughts, they win the argument, I end up being embarrassed.

Then I go in the next day, talk to the person and everything tends to melt away. They probably haven't thought of me in the past 24 hours, I'm likely low down the list in their priorities. Yet I've wasted countless minutes of my life worrying about what they think about me. Then the guilt sets in, I feel like I've made a poor judgement of their character.

I'd love to able to just have the people I love in my head, the football and my other hobbies. Does any of this sound familiar? Are there any techniques I should be trying other than those mentioned above in this thread?

The other points on having higher expectations of ourselves is so true. Any time a friend pulls out of meeting up, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. If it's me doing it, I'll ponder over how to break it to them for days.
You're still the one pool where I'd happily drown

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #437 on: January 12, 2020, 11:32:12 pm »
^
I think ruminating over what we think we could have, would have, should have done or said is very common with overly anxious people. We always have an inquest over things, don't we?

In itself is not a bad thing, but taken to extremes it's destructive. For instance, reflective practice is great in the workplace. Looking at what we've done and asking ourselves where we could improve is a great way of becoming better at what we do. On the other hand, agonising over perceived mistakes then beating ourselves up over it is counter productive. Nothing really improves that way, and we just feel bad over it.

I always ask myself if what I'm doing is workable for me and productive for me. If focusing on an issue is helping me work through it and address it then it's productive and worth pursuing. If it's endless ruminating that makes me feel bad but achieves nothing, I just do something else instead.

Thing is, the mind works in such a way that around 80% of the thoughts we have in any given day tend to be negative to some degree. Studies have shown this. So we can't pick and choose what comes into our minds, but we can pick and choose what we take notice of and act upon.

What you said is familiar to me, yes. I used to spend most of my time trying to fight thoughts and feelings. I also spent years trying to fill my mind with positive thoughts because that was what people said I should do. Thing is, when around 80% of the thoughts of the normal, healthy mind on any given day have negative content, it's clear that constantly battling such thoughts is not the way to go unless you want your whole life to be a draining psychological battle.

Techniques? I'm a firm believer in an holistic approach. By that I mean I use anything and everything that I personally find useful to me regardless of where it comes from. Different models of therapy, different approaches to self help. Anything i find on the internet. It's a case of looking around, trying things you see, adopting what helps and dropping what doesn't. Again, it's about finding what you personally find beneficial and workable. What one person finds useful, another may not, so finding your own best fit is crucial.

I personally find mindfulness my best fit. I don't actually do mindfulness exercises as such any more. I just employ the principle of trying  to live in the moment, concentrating on the present rather than agonising over the past, or living in fear of the future. If we actually look at how much time we spend agonising over the past and fearing for and ruminating over the future then it's scary. It doesn't really leave much room for living in and making the best of the present.

To get the most out of the present we have to make room for it. Thoughts and feelings we'd rather not have will always pop up too, because that's how our minds work. Endless struggle against them is counter productive and ultimately unworkable. It takes all our energies too. The best thing to do is accept them and make room for them too. We don't have to want them or like them, but simply making room for them frees us up to concentrate on more important things.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 11:37:16 pm by Sons of pioneerS »
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Offline damomad

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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #438 on: January 13, 2020, 07:20:48 pm »
Wise words. I couldn't believe the 80% stat but there's data to back it up. That makes me feel a lot more sane. I had always thought it was at least 50/50.

There has to be some sort of evolutionary reason for the negativity. Maybe when we were hunter gatherers, the brain was wired to protect/survive/fear the worst. Now that life is so comfortable (in some ways), it's only working against us.

Meditating, postiive thinking etc has never been my forte. I find when exercising/listening to music and watching football, are the main times when I can settle the mind. They are more distractions than techniques though and when the season ends, I'm in trouble! I'll have to give the mindfulness a try :)
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Re: Anxiety
« Reply #439 on: January 13, 2020, 07:52:42 pm »
Wise words. I couldn't believe the 80% stat but there's data to back it up. That makes me feel a lot more sane. I had always thought it was at least 50/50.

There has to be some sort of evolutionary reason for the negativity. Maybe when we were hunter gatherers, the brain was wired to protect/survive/fear the worst. Now that life is so comfortable (in some ways), it's only working against us.

Meditating, postiive thinking etc has never been my forte. I find when exercising/listening to music and watching football, are the main times when I can settle the mind. They are more distractions than techniques though and when the season ends, I'm in trouble! I'll have to give the mindfulness a try :)
Ah yes, that stat initially sounds ridiculous but, as you say, studies back it up.
Mind you, for most of my own life I'd have had it at about 98% such was the mess I was in mentally and emotionally.

One thing it really does show is the normality of negative thinking. With that in mind, why spend our lives fighting against what is normal? Why not just make room for it?

I think you are correct putting it down to hunter gatherer times. Life expectancy was short, danger was everywhere. If you swanned around with a happy, positive, carefree mindset you were something's dinner pretty quickly.

There are no sabre-toothed tigers lurking around the corners these days, but we still have the hair-trigger fight, flight or freeze response which now kicks in when we have a job interview, a presentation, a meeting, have to meet new people, speak publicly etc... The mind is always on the lookout for danger. Always looking for problems to solve.

I don't see a problem with how you choose to settle your mind. It's whatever helps you is the way to go. Adopt what helps, bin off what doesn't. All I'd add is that if/when you encounter troublesome life issues, do try to address them. That goes for anyone and everyone though. Nothing left to fester goes away on its own. Distraction isn't workable over the longer term in those instances. Distraction is perfectly fine and workable when it comes to dealing with the bullying chatterbox in our heads though.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 07:54:34 pm by Sons of pioneerS »
The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.