Topic: Leicester vs. Liverpool vs. Lee Mason [Round-table discussion]

[Aristotle]

What an utterly bizarre game of football. From minutes 19-21 Simon Mignolet had a worse time than any man since the time Garth Algar tried to pick up a woman (if you didn't expect a Foxy Lady reference after waiting years to see Leicester in the PL again, you were sorely mistaken). He started off by demanding the ball loudly. Then he ignored the first touch option and instead, with the firmness of a Belgian chocolate waffle, decided to pass it to Esteban Cambiasso and leave the net wide open for him to score. Luckily for us Cambiasso slid the ball past the open net, meaning a weight was finally lifted from Kolo's shoulders for his incredible miss against Arsenal after Suarez hit the post. Their goal was then a perfect summary of this strange aura that seems to define Goalkeepers as a species, they either have it or they don't. Mignolet at the start of last season looked like King Kong and came into every 50/50 like he'd just done enough PCP to dry up Detroit. This season's Mignolet negated his own, wonderful, save by having the ball strike him in the back and into the goal.

Our equaliser was then a moderate vindication of Rodgers' summer shopping. Lambert provided a dangerous presence in the box. Lallana was the player we lacked last season, someone who comes on the second wave when defenders are caught between dropping deep and pushing up and scored with a brilliant bouncing shot. It was also quick enough so the momentum Leicester had sort of died out, equally their own undoing as our foothold on the game.

Gerrard's goal was an instant throwback to his hat-trick against Everton. The type of goal he scores after his umpteenth operation. It was as close to an open-play penalty goal as he was going to get. We saw in the Crystal Palace game that when he puts his foot through it it's not going to happen. This was clinical. This was everything it needed to be. It's the type of goal Frank Lampard made a career of - without the discomforting of having to experience Frank Lampard scoring a goal. And most importantly I thought this was, to go absolutely fucking cliché, a moment where Gerrard's head overruled his heart. I was thrilled to see it and so clearly was everyone else. And lastly, let's be honest here, it was made just a little bit that much sweeter that it nutmegged Konchesky on the way in.

Henderson's winner. It was a particularly strange goal. Liverpool broke quickly through Joe Allen's clever footwork. Rickie Lambert dropped deep to offer the outlet. Sterling's run and Gerrard's clever movement took the Leicester defence by surprise. Gerrard broke down the left, made a weird pass with the outside of his boot, which was intercepted partially, hit towards Schmeichel (that shouldn't have been on the pitch at that point) - the Dane clearly felt bad about it so rather than catching a relatively slow ball he dropped it. Sterling then was the first to react, channeled Daniel Sturridge in Cardiff, backheeled it to Jordan Henderson who managed who hit the defender staring 2 inches to the right of being dead-center in the goal - but still scored. It wasn't so much well worked (Sterling's run & backheel aside) as it was an accumulation of the last 60 minutes of the game finally switching back round in our favour.

What all this meant was that having lost 3 league games in a row the mighty Reds have now picked up 2 in just 4 days. Much like last call at 3 in the morning at an airport bar, it's not pretty but you'll take it and chalk it in the win column.

Talking points:
- 6 appearances for Kolo Toure this season. His only defeat coming to reigning European Champions at the Bernabeu. He might have the odd mistake in him and he doesn't always appear like he's ready to cope physically. But is there anyone out there who doesn't feel that the world is a better place with Kolo Toure in it?

- 34 year old Steven Gerrard was spared putting through the grind of a midfield lobotomy against Stoke City for the first hour. 34 year old Steven Gerrard had arguably his best performance since Spurs away. Seems a fairly straightforward formula doesn't it?

- There's been talk of Brendan Rodgers bumping heads with the incredibly mysterious transfer committee but I raise the point whether the bigger disruptive influence at the club is the newly signed club sponsor, Subway. Despite signing a number of players with the plan to upgrade the squad and increase the quality of the depth players it seems that ever since signing with Subway Brendan Rodgers has been contractually obligated not to make any subs that upstage the restaurant chain. Is there a logical explanation behind this or is there a genuine problem with Rodgers' reluctance to try and impact games.

- It's incredible what a win does to your mindset. I mentioned pre-match that on Friday I was absolutely dreading this, on Saturday night I couldn't wait or this game to come. After tonight I've got this odd serenity about me. Winning football matches is just genuinely a good time to have. Having said that what are your opinions to keep these feelgood vibes going? More of the same, paraphrasing the Catholic  motto of the Dark Ages; if it works - don't fuck with it. Do you think we need to see Player X in for Player Y? And if so who are your X and Y?

- There are now 7 fixtures until the corresponding match between these two teams takes place at Anfield on New Year's Day, marking the opening of the transfer window. Are there any players you think that are in with a chance to prove the manager wrong and cement their positions at the club in those 7 games? And alternatively are there any players who might see their position under threat come January 1st who will step it up a gear and remind everyone that this is their spot in the team?

- I won't even waste time on Lee Mason and his impact on the game. I can communicate in 6 (or 7 languages, depending on definitions) and I'm completely lost for words in all of them. But if anyone wants to have a go; here is your shot.

[Corkboy]

Two things.

Firstly, poor old Wes Morgan. Captain of his team, he provides the assist for our first goal to Lallana, then provides the assist for our second to Gerrard and finally fucks up a back pass, hauls down Lambert and gets himself sent off. He was our real MOTM.

Secondly, consider the following stat.

Liverpool this season :

With Lucas :

P10, W7, D1 & L2

Without Lucas :

P11, W2, D2 & L7

[Aristotle]

Secondly, consider the following stat.

Liverpool this season :

With Lucas :

P10, W7, D1 & L2

Without Lucas :

P11, W2, D2 & L7

Does this actually indicate anything? I'm not downplaying Lucas' role, I think he's been especially important in winning the bloody long passes that have killed us this season. But those 10 games are 8 starts and 2 substitute appearances. The subs were against Ludogorets (when we conceded on the counter) and against WBA in a frankly bizarre game, which we won but much like last night's game is hard to take anything from other than Lallana and Henderson providing goals from midfield. His starts include the draw against Boro and a Swansea side without Bony and the Gylf in the league cup. Against West Ham it was game over within 7 minutes thanks to our inability to deal with crosses and then against Madrid which was very good.

That then leaves the Southampton game, not his best and partly at fault for the equaliser. He's only finished 90 minutes 4 times this season: Ludogorets away, Leicester yesterday and then Boro & Swansea in the League Cup. Now full credit to Lucas who should definitely be starting the next game on merit. But this statistic makes it look like Liverpool with and without Gerrard/Torres in 2007-2010 or Liverpool with and without Daniel Sturridge.

Now this isn't aimed at you, but more how these convenient stats pop up out of nothing. The Daniel Agger clean sheet stat gives me an allergic reaction and blood pours from my eyes every time someone brings it up. We've become more solid, if less adventurous with Lucas. But this isn't exactly the physical manifestation of Lothar Matthäus' spirit, let alone Lucas of 3 years ago.

[Lone Star Red]

A sort of vindication game for Gerrard, Lucas, and Lambert? Albeit only against lowly Leicester, but still, it's something.

I get a nice, warm, fuzzy feeling seeing Rickie Lambert doing well in an LFC shirt. He didn't score or assist yesterday and he got caught offsides a bit too much for my liking, but he impacted the game (unlike other performances from some strikers this season), held up the ball well, and had a nice play to get around that poor CB of theirs which led to the red card.

He's the dial-up internet to Sturridge's FiOS and he probably shouldn't be this club's number one striker, but he's gotten a lot of stick this season and this run in the team is more than showing his worth IMO. Long may it continue, at least until we get Danny back.

Oh, I like this back to back winning thing.

[sempi]

Getting on to Lee Mason, why is this man allowed near a Liverpool match?  Man City last year, a couple of years ago against Fulham,  he sent off Carragher after he'd been fouled! In the same game he also sent off Phillip Degan for running after the ball.
Lambert's lucky to be on the pitch for being allowing himself to be throttled!

[DonkeyWan]

Have to disagree with your asessment that Gerrard had a good game. I thought he had a particularly poor first half, perked up for five minutes in the second, scored a goal, had a few nice touches and then was anonymous thereafter. And lets put this in context, yes it awas away, but it was to the bottom of the division and against ten men by the finish... and still Liverpool struggled.

It was interesting to hear the crowd sing out for Gerrard, perhaps they are seeing more at the match than me on the telly. I have to say though, with two 30+ year olds as our most advanced players, Liverpool looked leadened footed.

I want to make a comparison to the Stoke game here; that game was an arm wrestle also, but I felt a lot more comfortable watching that game for two reasons;

1] When Liverpool were pressured, they were back quickly and in a formation that made them dificult to break down. When they broke, they broke at pace and were threatening. For 30 minutes after 1/2 time they looked like they could open Stoke up at will
2] The second reason is related to that. The midfield functioned better because players were able to turn on the ball and play short, diagonal bals and move into space to complete the 1-2.

Last night without the mobility up front the balls were played backwards all night. First it was Gerrard, then he was soon joined by Henderson. Only Lucas was trying to turn and play penetrative balls. Lallana, for all his good work, tends to hog the ball and run down blind alleys. If I want to watch players hog the ball, fallover and then dawdle backwards, I will player cam Glen Johnson

Does this ring a bell? CB plays ball forward, it's immediately pinged back to feet. He tries again, same thing. Meanwhile two forwards are buzzing around him, pressuring him. So he has two choices; play it back to the keeper, who hoiks it long (or sets up Cambiasso, whatevah) and the ball is 50:50 lost; or he plays it to the FB, who repeats the same process or pings it down the line to be contested by the winger.

It was terrible watching that last night, Liverpool ened up with 50% possession, despite having a man extra by the end of the game. Those last few minutes I attribute to nerves and a lack of confidence, but how do you explain the 70 minutes before that? Even the goals seem to come against the run of play.

Against Stoke it was a far better performance, the midfield took the pressure off the backline by turning and playing the ball forward. Last night the goal was coming for a while, Mignolet's brain fart a vision of what was to come.

I don't want to ignore the issue in the backline (it's still cat, though Toure is clearly the better choice) but a more mobile frontline would have helped that midfield an awful lot.

The situation as I see it is that Rodgers, having moved Gerrard backwards to accomodate his age, has moved him forwards to, ahm, accomodate his age. Basically, by trying to crowbar Gerrard into the side he is unbalancing the team. As I mentioned elsewhere, he looks like the final piece for a different jigsaw.

Of course, it's not Gerrard's fault he is currently making up one (older) half off a 66 year old attacking battery. I don't know if Borini is injured or not, but if not, his lack of presence on the bench last night amazes me. Effectively staring a league match with one striker in the match day squad? Strange times.

[freddwarf]

Could of happened almost every time Mig plays. he's far to sloppy, laid back almost. While you don't want your keeper to be to nervy he has to be fully focused. His distribution is hit and miss. Lot of the time he casually boots the ball just short of the half way line out wide, often getting intercepted. Hardly ever make the quick throw out.

Dosen't command the box, obviously has great agility and makes breathtaking saves. But you need a keeper with all round ability not just a great shot stopper.

Sooner or later we are going to have to win a tough away game without SG. Led us on last night. Sending off helped.Confidence better but still a lot of improvement needed. Good strike by Lallana but he still plays in pockets, would obviously benefit from a run to gel with the others.

The defence will put further pressure on the attack if they don't start defending as a unit.

[steveeastend]

Last night without the mobility up front the balls were played backwards all night. First it was Gerrard, then he was soon joined by Henderson. Only Lucas was trying to turn and play penetrative balls. Lallana, for all his good work, tends to hog the ball and run down blind alleys.

Totally agree. I am also kind of sick of those long hollywood balls from Gerrard, which Henderson kind of joined in yesterday. Those balls are useless without having someone like Suarez AND Sturridge upfront, only put us under pressure and deny possession.

There seems to be a lack of believe in short passes and a constant unpatience within the team whenever Gerrard is around which makes our attacking play predictable and the team work even harder in defense as we won't be able to control games when trying to force it too early, especially away from home.

Overall I thought our passing was weak, the team worked as a unit though, which was a positive just as in those last two games. Sunderland home should be winable and then Basel home more or less will set the tone for the second part of the season.

Very important two games, let's hope for some confidence and patience in our passing and Balotelli or Sturridge to be fit for those but that's probably wishful thinking.

[kkjellquist]

With Lucas :

P10, W7, D1 & L2

Without Lucas :

P11, W2, D2 & L7

I'd like to see the same numbers for the Lucas/Toure combo.

[Lasardine]

I was at the game and I thought Gerrard was really good. Some of his decisions may have been the wrong one but let's not forget he's barely played in this position over the last three years. The problem we have is there's no real runners around him except Sterling - that's the problem. For me Gerrard has to be in front of the sitting midfielder but not behind the striker purely because we lose mobility and goal threat, as things stand anyway. If we get quicker players in the front three then he'll be much more suited to playing attacking midfield as it'll create space for him and he'll have more runners to pick out.

Other key points: Lucas looks a lot more mobile, slowly getting back to his best, was very solid for us in midfield. Skrtel was strong in the box against Leicester's aerial threat, won most things. Mignolet has to go, he instills panic throughout the defence due to his poor footwork/distribution/commanding of the box/lack of leadership - need I go on?

 Lambert did well but I still doubt how suited he is to us if we want to be challenging. I don't know if our pressing/defending was good or their passing was shit but we could've battered Leicester if we had more counter attacking threats in our team. There was no outlet on the break except Sterling, who, might I add, was given nothing by the biggest shithouse ref I've ever witnessed in Lee Mason.

Lallana? I'm not really sure what made us pay £23m for him. I like him but he's being played out of position and isn't really offering much at all. He's on the bench way too often as well for a "marquee signing". We overpaid massively for him. He runs down blind alleys, doesn't get involved enough, isn't quick on the counter, doesn't create chances, doesn't score enough. He's a luxury player in my opinion - has elegance about him and no real productivity. Yes, I know he scored.

[Gnurglan]

Talking points:
- 6 appearances for Kolo Toure this season. His only defeat coming to reigning European Champions at the Bernabeu. He might have the odd mistake in him and he doesn't always appear like he's ready to cope physically. But is there anyone out there who doesn't feel that the world is a better place with Kolo Toure in it?

- 34 year old Steven Gerrard was spared putting through the grind of a midfield lobotomy against Stoke City for the first hour. 34 year old Steven Gerrard had arguably his best performance since Spurs away. Seems a fairly straightforward formula doesn't it?

- It's incredible what a win does to your mindset. I mentioned pre-match that on Friday I was absolutely dreading this, on Saturday night I couldn't wait or this game to come. After tonight I've got this odd serenity about me. Winning football matches is just genuinely a good time to have. Having said that what are your opinions to keep these feelgood vibes going? More of the same, paraphrasing the Catholic  motto of the Dark Ages; if it works - don't fuck with it. Do you think we need to see Player X in for Player Y? And if so who are your X and Y?

- There are now 7 fixtures until the corresponding match between these two teams takes place at Anfield on New Year's Day, marking the opening of the transfer window. Are there any players you think that are in with a chance to prove the manager wrong and cement their positions at the club in those 7 games? And alternatively are there any players who might see their position under threat come January 1st who will step it up a gear and remind everyone that this is their spot in the team?

Like the OP!

- Kolo Toure, just keep him in the side. We're better with him and as long as that's the case, he should play.

- Gerrard's role is perhaps the most interesting thing. Finally we've decided to play Lucas deep and build things around him. And I reckon things look better. It's no real surprise, but we were really good with Gerrard deep last season, so to change that requires a bit of thought from Rodgers. Was great to see Gerrard score. That should mean everyone is happy with the new setup. Lucas is in the side, Gerrard became a match winner and there can be no real complaints.

- It's time for us to go Catholic. We've found something that works. Let's take great care of that. We'll need the odd change here and there, as usual. That's it.

- With so many games coming up, every player has a chance to make his mark. We really need Coutinho, Sterling and Lallana to step up and add goals and assists. Up front, Borini has a great opportunity to show his worth now that Lambert is his only competition (and he can't play all games). In his case, I reckon it's something of a last chance. Say he was to come in and score a few goals, then he has a chance. If not, his time is up, perhaps already in January. I would like to see Markovic come in and have an impact too. In his case, it's more of an opportunity to prove his worth. So far he's been the invisible man. Now we will have to play him and quite frankly, he needs to show something. He'll remain, but I reckon everyone, him, Rodgers, team mates, supporters etc all need to see some evidence of his potential.

[GrkStav]

When people use the fact that Gerrard hasn't played in the CAM/SS position in a few years as a way to account for his taking a bit of time to adjust to it, I am reminded of how savage the criticisms of Lucas were when he was used in Henderson's position in a 1-2 or 1-2-1 midfield.

It is CORRECT to give players a couple of games in a position they haven't featured in a while to adjust, to get their bearings, etc. Let's just do it consistently, though. It's the right thing to do.

[welshred1976]

Thank goodness we won this. Toure & Lucas have to stay in for now to help us try and build something more solid. Mason's performance was truly shocking.

[Robinred]

It's really rather sad to see The Round Table dying a slow death.

I don't know why so many former posters have abandoned ship. But where are they? There used to be so much wisdom and wry humour on here; I miss the contributions of Juan Loco, Yorkykopite et al.

And I wonder what they make of a team so devoid of the ingredients that made last season such a joy. A team that might have built on an attacking, possession, high energy and swift-transition based approach, but is now reduced to nail-biting, nervous and unconvincing rear guard actions (frequently seeing 10 men behind the ball with no attacking outlet) against poor teams that show more collective resolve than us.

Analysis is rather superfluous for me. Three points is very welcome, but seeing Leicester's ten men pinning us back for the last 15 minutes sticks in my craw.

[007.lankyguy]

It's really rather sad to see The Round Table dying a slow death.

I don't know why so many former posters have abandoned ship. But where are they? There used to be so much wisdom and wry humour on here; I miss the contributions of Juan Loco, Yorkykopite et al.

I think it's partly to do with the form of the team - it's a bit demoralising writing a decent length post on how bad your team are.

Having said that, I was very disappointed to see only four posts in the Round Table for Stoke because I thought there was quite a lot to discuss from that game.

[ThePoolMan]

Like the OP!

- Gerrard's role is perhaps the most interesting thing. Finally we've decided to play Lucas deep and build things around him. And I reckon things look better. It's no real surprise, but we were really good with Gerrard deep last season, so to change that requires a bit of thought from Rodgers. Was great to see Gerrard score. That should mean everyone is happy with the new setup. Lucas is in the side, Gerrard became a match winner and there can be no real complaints.

- It's time for us to go Catholic. We've found something that works. Let's take great care of that. We'll need the odd change here and there, as usual. That's it.

Gerrard worked last season because we had a super fast and mobile attack which allowed us to benefit from his long balls and breaking into c outnerattack. Apart from Sterling, we don't have that anymore. So it's pointless to play him at the base of the MF and only weakens the control that we have in the midfield. Lucas simply must continue playing in CM as controller - what more since he is the only player we have currently who can do so.

Gerrard should be given a new contract but he will need to accept that he cannot a guaranteed first team starter anymore. Playing him the way United deployed Giggs in his last couple of seasons playing for them will allow him to conserve his freshness and energy. and he should not be deployed deep MF anymore.

[MontyM]

OP, spot on. Witty, insightful, well versed.

Now onto the hoshpoddle that was last night's game (and refereeing). As an Australian based Red, I have to get up very very early to watch us play, or go a full day of sticking my fingers in my ears and lalala'ing so I can watch the replay without knowing the result. The game had moments that made me sing in joy and regret my early rise in equal abandon. WHAT, I repeat WHAT was Mignolet doing to hand Cambiasso (who I thought played well) an early contender for miss of the season? Atrocious at this level, nigh inexcusable. I don't care if he's low in confidence, I don't care if he's fragile. If you play goalkeeper for a team competing for top 4 in the premier league, not to mention being paid very handsomely for his efforts, you get the basics right. I know its become a bit of a squeaky wheel, but migs has to go for me. Has to. Anyone else will do, even if we concede a few more 'great' shots because their level of stopping ability doesnt match migs. The benefits of organisation and calm headedness will more then outweigh the negative.

Watching Gerrard for this game was frustrating, for want of a better term. Yes, he scored (scared the heck out of my dogs when he did, I lapped the house in celebration) and what a good finish it was. Great positioning for the spill. But red colored goal goggles aside, our midfield made a 50 year old Cambiasso look like a rampaging teenager. Now this wasn't all Captain fantastic, but how many times did they get possession and threaten to break, only for Gerrard to be jogging in the periphery in a rough vector to eventually intersect the passage of play approximately 3 minutes post threat? Too many. He has a lot to offer us, he's fantastic for short bursts. But thats it, it has to be for short bursts. I thought his super sub appearance against Stoke was the dawn of a new day for our cap, come on at 70 minutes and bring the cool head, experience and lateral thinking we need to change the game. If he starts next game I'll be disappointed, not because I think he's a bad player, I just think we need to be smarter at this stage.

A few posters already alluded to our back 4 passing charade. There was a point during the game that I popped off to get a cuppa, shot to the loo in a rush, screamed back to the couch and Skirts was still passing to Toure. Lucas was the only one who wanted to make those vertical passes to split the midfield. It seems our team shrinks away from the slightest passing risk, content to recycle backwards to the ever confident Mignolet. Where was the cavalier passing of last year, the confidence to pass and move, the nerve to make that ball.

Overall, a game of mixed feelings. Similar to a bucket of chicken. Feels good at the time, but afterwards you just have a bit of a slackjawed look and feeling like you aren't sure where the napkins are.

Most importantly, 3 points. My ranting post aside, I'll take that all day long.

YNWA   

[Beninger]

We definitely are a bit more subdued than the last half of last season, but I think finding the balance is key, and starting off with a solid defense is the beginning of that.  It's still a work in progress, like always, but I think the majority of us (at least what I've heard) were concerned with the fact that we were looking bad and getting worse, yet nothing new was being tried.  Well, we're trying something new and things are turning around for us.  It isn't all downhill from here, but it appears we're on the right track.  I hope Brendan can show the owners that a little more money in January would be helpful, and then I hope we spend it wisely. 

[kcbworth]

The Daniel Agger clean sheet stat gives me an allergic reaction and blood pours from my eyes every time someone brings it up.

That's a very strange reaction. Why?

[DonkeyWan]

*snip*

Is pretty much my feelings on it. We tend to talk about the steel that Lucas brings to the midfield, but against Leicester he was also the sharpest passer in the middle. Henderson had a torrid night, goal aside. His frequent passes behind players was so frustrating. When Allen came on he was also timidly under-hitting passes, in one instance ruining a  flowing moving with 4 on 3. In fact, besides Lucas the only player playing with verve and courage in the middle was Sterling, but too often he was isolated.

Its a thin line between clever, aggressive passes and stupid, intercepted ones. Last season, with confidence high and fire in the belly, players were zipping the ball about through atom thin gaps. Now they look up, see 3 yards of space, turn and go backwards. Manquillo is particularly awful for this (hence the preference for Johnson I suspect). Perhaps the team will play aggressively again if the side gets some form and confidence. Until they, I suspect we will see a lot more of that horrible backwards/sideways passing that is the hallmark of a team that is worried and nervous.

[Gnurglan]

We definitely are a bit more subdued than the last half of last season, but I think finding the balance is key, and starting off with a solid defense is the beginning of that.  It's still a work in progress, like always, but I think the majority of us (at least what I've heard) were concerned with the fact that we were looking bad and getting worse, yet nothing new was being tried.  Well, we're trying something new and things are turning around for us.  It isn't all downhill from here, but it appears we're on the right track.  I hope Brendan can show the owners that a little more money in January would be helpful, and then I hope we spend it wisely. 

Agree. We're getting back on track. Winning games.

The week we went to Madrid sums it up for us. We lost to Newcastle and were dreadful. Then we changed half the side and lost to Real Madrid. But we looked better as a unit in that game. And yet we heard lots of complaints. Then we changed back and we lost again. We've been searching. Now we've finally found something. We've changed Gerrard's role. Toure is in the side ahead of Sakho and Lovren. We have a different type of striker up front. But we've found a way to make it work. For now. Immediately we think we're not brave enough and we have concerns. Which is fine, but we can't get all at once. At least we've decided to go with something that works.

We're not the same as we were last season, but I wouldn't be too worried about our style of play. We all know Rodgers wants us to be positive. What we don't want though, is to be naive. It's nice to say that we always play an open, attacking game. But there are times when we won't score with ease. There are times when the opposition will be better than us. We need to be able to adapt to that. Now we're showing signs that we can. It's a good thing. For now we should see it as something positive.

[Gnurglan]

Gerrard worked last season because we had a super fast and mobile attack which allowed us to benefit from his long balls and breaking into c outnerattack. Apart from Sterling, we don't have that anymore. So it's pointless to play him at the base of the MF and only weakens the control that we have in the midfield. Lucas simply must continue playing in CM as controller - what more since he is the only player we have currently who can do so.

Gerrard should be given a new contract but he will need to accept that he cannot a guaranteed first team starter anymore. Playing him the way United deployed Giggs in his last couple of seasons playing for them will allow him to conserve his freshness and energy. and he should not be deployed deep MF anymore.

I wouldn't rule out Gerrard from the deepest role already. For now he shouldn't play there, but if we change our attack again (when Sturridge comes back?), perhaps he should. Last season it worked. Maybe it will again? We'll see. What I like with Lucas in the side, is that we're building around a player who could still be here for 4-5 years and not around Gerrard. Gerrard becomes the extra option, who can be used in multiple roles. Which is a lot better for us in the long run. It's a way to use him and at the same time it can help us phase him out. I know that doesn't sound well, but it's something we need to plan for. We need to keep it in mind. It would be foolish to ignore it. And as negative as it may sound, it could perhaps extend his career. It's OK not to use him every single game and hence his career can be a little longer.

[SmallwoodRed]

It's really rather sad to see The Round Table dying a slow death.

I don't know why so many former posters have abandoned ship. But where are they? There used to be so much wisdom and wry humour on here; I miss the contributions of Juan Loco, Yorkykopite et al.

And I wonder what they make of a team so devoid of the ingredients that made last season such a joy. A team that might have built on an attacking, possession, high energy and swift-transition based approach, but is now reduced to nail-biting, nervous and unconvincing rear guard actions (frequently seeing 10 men behind the ball with no attacking outlet) against poor teams that show more collective resolve than us.

Analysis is rather superfluous for me. Three points is very welcome, but seeing Leicester's ten men pinning us back for the last 15 minutes sticks in my craw.

Maybe its like you say - because we dont have an attacking outlet. I think the addition of a decent mobile striker would have made a massive difference. Enable us to soak up pressure and hit on the counter effectively. Like other posters have said - we had two 30+ players heading our counter attack and it showed.

[bathoz]

I'm not usually one to write here, but I want to mention a couple of things that are bothering me and pleasing me.

As much as has been said about finally realising that for a team that doesn't have the SAS, Gerrard's playmaker role is redundant – and therefore Lucas is your guy – is the realisation that we don't SAS, and our attacking my needs to shift to make up for that.

Moving Gerrard up closer to Lambert (as opposed to using a through-ball merchant like Coutinho) is a tacit acknowledgement that if all we have is target men, we need players around them to be brought into play. I'm vaguely interested in Mario's return, because he suffers from the same isolation that Rickie has. Of course, without the tendency to chase as hard to make up for it.

I think, as much as there have been calls for us to 'stick with it', I think we need to move further in this direction.

Final thought: substitutions. Maybe I'm second guessing the manager here (and still have no idea who was on the bench for the match. Reading this thread was the first I found out that Borini wasn't on it), but after the red card I thought it was the perfect time to bring on either him or Markovic. Just to exploit those open spaces and give Sterling some relief. It was amazing to see that, even with 10 men, Leicester were still double marking him.

I don't understand the Borini-phobia from Rodgers. Maybe he's not good enough. But he's at least premier league quality, and he offers something different. Oh, and fitness. He runs and runs. If you've got one fit Striker you trust (who happens to be over thirty), surely you try and keep his legs in decent condition?

[Aristotle]

That's a very strange reaction. Why?

Because all it does is prove the opposite of the point that people are trying to claim with it. I've yet to see it without the context of Lovren/Skrtel/Sakho/Toure are terrible - Agger was the key to everything. In who gives a fuck how many games Rodgers has been in charge he's had 23 clean sheets and 20 of those came with Daniel Agger. It's then used to have a go at the manager for buying Lovren for 20 million and letting Agger go for 3.

What never follows the statistic is the following facts: That Rodgers got more games out of Agger in a single season than anyone, including Rafa who bought him. That Agger, the national team captain, hasn't even made the bench for the NT in 3/4 qualifying games. That Agger himself wanted the move and has said he couldn't cope with the PL physicality anymore. That Agger was beaten in a sprint by Roberto Soldado, a man more broken than officer Alex Murphy before OCP got their hands on him, despite having a solid 7 or 8 yards ahead of him and Tottenham being 2 goals down.

This bullshit clean sheet statistic with Agger is the perfect example of using stats without context to prove a point - and takes away from any actual debate about their merit.

[Timbo's Goals]

Have to disagree with your asessment that Gerrard had a good game. I thought he had a particularly poor first half, perked up for five minutes in the second, scored a goal, had a few nice touches and then was anonymous thereafter. And lets put this in context, yes it awas away, but it was to the bottom of the division and against ten men by the finish... and still Liverpool struggled.

It was interesting to hear the crowd sing out for Gerrard, perhaps they are seeing more at the match than me on the telly. I have to say though, with two 30+ year olds as our most advanced players, Liverpool looked leadened footed.

I want to make a comparison to the Stoke game here; that game was an arm wrestle also, but I felt a lot more comfortable watching that game for two reasons;

1] When Liverpool were pressured, they were back quickly and in a formation that made them dificult to break down. When they broke, they broke at pace and were threatening. For 30 minutes after 1/2 time they looked like they could open Stoke up at will
2] The second reason is related to that. The midfield functioned better because players were able to turn on the ball and play short, diagonal bals and move into space to complete the 1-2.

Last night without the mobility up front the balls were played backwards all night. First it was Gerrard, then he was soon joined by Henderson. Only Lucas was trying to turn and play penetrative balls. Lallana, for all his good work, tends to hog the ball and run down blind alleys. If I want to watch players hog the ball, fallover and then dawdle backwards, I will player cam Glen Johnson

Does this ring a bell? CB plays ball forward, it's immediately pinged back to feet. He tries again, same thing. Meanwhile two forwards are buzzing around him, pressuring him. So he has two choices; play it back to the keeper, who hoiks it long (or sets up Cambiasso, whatevah) and the ball is 50:50 lost; or he plays it to the FB, who repeats the same process or pings it down the line to be contested by the winger.

It was terrible watching that last night, Liverpool ened up with 50% possession, despite having a man extra by the end of the game. Those last few minutes I attribute to nerves and a lack of confidence, but how do you explain the 70 minutes before that? Even the goals seem to come against the run of play.

Against Stoke it was a far better performance, the midfield took the pressure off the backline by turning and playing the ball forward. Last night the goal was coming for a while, Mignolet's brain fart a vision of what was to come.

I don't want to ignore the issue in the backline (it's still cat, though Toure is clearly the better choice) but a more mobile frontline would have helped that midfield an awful lot.

The situation as I see it is that Rodgers, having moved Gerrard backwards to accomodate his age, has moved him forwards to, ahm, accomodate his age. Basically, by trying to crowbar Gerrard into the side he is unbalancing the team. As I mentioned elsewhere, he looks like the final piece for a different jigsaw.

Of course, it's not Gerrard's fault he is currently making up one (older) half off a 66 year old attacking battery. I don't know if Borini is injured or not, but if not, his lack of presence on the bench last night amazes me. Effectively staring a league match with one striker in the match day squad? Strange times.

Close the thread. No need for any more views. 

If ever a post nailed the course two successive games took then this is that post.

Terrific stuff DW.

Before reading your take I'd posted something akin - though slightly less emphatic - in the Downturn - Stoke 2nd half reversal - thread.

Could it be that the Lucas/Allen/Coutinho/Sterling quartet represents our taxi ride to freedom?

 

[jepovic]

Isn't this exactly what one would expect when you switch from Coutinho to Gerrard? The Brazilian is fantastic at bringing the ball up the field, but often lacks the end product. Gerrard is very direct and impatient, but he can still predict where the loose balls will end up, scores and makes the occasional brilliant pass which splits the opposition open. Coutinho makes our attack beautiful, but perhaps Gerrard is the more productive one over 90 min.

The main problem, with either of them, is that we lack runners. Lambert is static. Sterling runs, Lallana to some extent, but Allen and Henderson seem stuck near midfield. We have too many passers and too few runners.

This "Toure has the odd mistake in him" stuff is just weird. As long as he keeps them "in him", I couldn't care less. Lovren was spreading his mistakes all over the place.

Great OP, btw.

[Aristotle]

This "Toure has the odd mistake in him" stuff is just weird. As long as he keeps them "in him", I couldn't care less. Lovren was spreading his mistakes all over the place.

Great OP, btw.

Don't know how to embed Vines on here but I was referring to things like this https://vine.co/v/O1VB2q9eY3h and the "tackle" that set up their shot where Mignolet fumbled it. But as the vine shows, even if it's mindboggling how he manages that, it's just funny because it's Kolo, not a deep rooted problem.

[Red Genius]

I think the single most emphatic point worth taking (in addition to the lovely 3 points we slapped on the board) is that the result has helped build a little momentum, it's a platform to build from.... how we would have craved that only a couple weeks ago. Now we have 2 wins back to back in the league and a result in Europe that brings the defining game back to Anfield.

The games in all 3 presented some variant of positives and some still apparent weaknesses in our game, however the significance is we got the results which is paramount. Football is fickle, we know this... however what is always and has always been a cast iron guarantee, success breathes success into a team and the squad look better for it. Lallana and Hendo with goals from midfield, precisely what the gaffer was after this summer after the Suarez exodus, the Gerrard conundrum tackles (for the time being) and a goal from open play from the skipper.

Lucas and Toure bringing some resilience to the back line which we much needed and in successive games too.

We needed more than anything else, above all else in the last few games some much needed confidence and self belief back, and that's what this result on the back of the previous two represent. I'm not going to critically analyse every situation, rather prefer to say 'job done well done lads, onto the next one, same again'

I recall only a couple years back United grinding results out to a title, i'd happily grind results out to a top 4 finish this year and that 'grinding' - comes from application and attitude, that's all i ever ask to see as a Liverpool supporter, 11 lads in red shirts giving it their all and applying themselves, can't ask anymore than that, and that's what we got away at Leicester.

Well done lads.

[kcbworth]

What never follows the statistic is the following facts: That Rodgers got more games out of Agger in a single season than anyone, including Rafa who bought him. That Agger, the national team captain, hasn't even made the bench for the NT in 3/4 qualifying games. That Agger himself wanted the move and has said he couldn't cope with the PL physicality anymore. That Agger was beaten in a sprint by Roberto Soldado, a man more broken than officer Alex Murphy before OCP got their hands on him, despite having a solid 7 or 8 yards ahead of him and Tottenham being 2 goals down.

This bullshit clean sheet statistic with Agger is the perfect example of using stats without context to prove a point - and takes away from any actual debate about their merit.

Yeah sorry not even remotely with you there.

My hypothesis is that with Agger - we have 9 more points in the league this season, and we'd have already qualified for the next round of Europe.

Stats or not - that's how much I believe his influence has been missed!

You obviously disagree so it's not worth a discussion, but I would say, this does indicate that while you may strongly believe something to be true, there's nothing to say you're actuall right (aimed at all posters not just you).

[Red Genius]

Can we get back to the er round table lads.. you know about the game or what - Sure there is a thread to chat about that if you would like somewhere else.

[Aristotle]

Yeah sorry not even remotely with you there.

My hypothesis is that with Agger - we have 9 more points in the league this season, and we'd have already qualified for the next round of Europe.

Stats or not - that's how much I believe his influence has been missed!

You obviously disagree so it's not worth a discussion, but I would say, this does indicate that while you may strongly believe something to be true, there's nothing to say you're actuall right (aimed at all posters not just you).

Agger's loss has been equal to losing big Sami. He made us tick, he would bring it when it counts and he would help us play from the back. The fact of the matter is that his inability to stay fit has cost us immensely. We would've won the fucking league if he hadn't injured himself picking up a bloody dumbbell at the gym. But it proved to be the end for him. He was clearly hurting and despite being our best defender he looked completely out of shape. He was barely recognisable against Newcastle and considering the team we put out that day and with Newcastle in absolute free fall, he still looked woefully out of it. I just don't see how he would have made the difference against the likes of Agbonlahor, Gayle and Zamora when he didn't look like he could last season and has since then been struggling to stay fit, to the point of not featuring for club and country. But that's just me.

[fowlermagic]

That was a nervous side we saw last night as obviously we are not a very confident team right now and when we travel we are shytting bricks nearly as you saw last night even against 10 men Leicester were the dominant side for large periods.

They had their chances, could have been 2 up after that mare from Simon and the own goal, unlucky there but we were cut open with a simple pass behind Toure but our response was immediate which might show signs we have a little more swagger to our game. SGs addition has its - I guess but I am always more confident with him in the side as he had a say in a couple of our goals / best chances & would have won a penalty on most nights with the exception that Mason was giving us nothing. I was shocked he sent off the Leicester lad as surely Lambert fouled him as per the view Mason had all night...Sterling nearly lost a leg once or twice due to tackles & Mason gave him feck all.

Anyway we are playing a tad better, grinding out moderate performances and getting results right now. Harder to beat I guess with the more experienced heads on the pitch but cant see us getting too many games in a row out of the likes of Lambert, Lucas, Toure, SG & Co due to age / injury prone. Rotate them here & there but hope the momentum keeps going as a couple of huge games on the horizon.

[El Lobo]

Getting on to Lee Mason, why is this man allowed near a Liverpool match?  Man City last year, a couple of years ago against Fulham,  he sent off Carragher after he'd been fouled! In the same game he also sent off Phillip Degan for running after the ball.
Lambert's lucky to be on the pitch for being allowing himself to be throttled!

I was sat with the missus, her dad, her brother, her mum, her auntie, her nephew and obviously a stand full of other Leicester fans. Sitting on my hands. And no word of a lie, they thought he cost THEM the game. 'He must be wearing a red shirt under that'. 'These are crap, that refs won them the game'.

[goalrushatgoodison]

Could of happened almost every time Mig plays. he's far to sloppy, laid back almost. While you don't want your keeper to be to nervy he has to be fully focused. His distribution is hit and miss. Lot of the time he casually boots the ball just short of the half way line out wide, often getting intercepted. Hardly ever make the quick throw out.

Dosen't command the box, obviously has great agility and makes breathtaking saves. But you need a keeper with all round ability not just a great shot stopper.

Sooner or later we are going to have to win a tough away game without SG. Led us on last night. Sending off helped.Confidence better but still a lot of improvement needed. Good strike by Lallana but he still plays in pockets, would obviously benefit from a run to gel with the others.

The defence will put further pressure on the attack if they don't start defending as a unit.

Eh, what could have happened every time he's played? I'm asking because at this stage he's been blamed for everything bar the Kennedy assasination (although that will surely come).

[DonkeyWan]

Eh, what could have happened every time he's played? I'm asking because at this stage he's been blamed for everything bar the Kennedy assasination (although that will surely come).

[slaphead]

Have to disagree with your asessment that Gerrard had a good game. I thought he had a particularly poor first half, perked up for five minutes in the second, scored a goal, had a few nice touches and then was anonymous thereafter.

It was interesting to hear the crowd sing out for Gerrard, perhaps they are seeing more at the match than me on the telly.

I heard Gary Linekar say that he was at the game and that Gerrard was the best player on the pitch by some distance.
Which was good to hear. I was trying to figure out if he was or that was Linekar blowing smoke up Gerrards arse.
I was going to ask you how there could be such conflicting views from 2 people at the same game...,,,Then you went and ruined it by saying you watched it on the telly 

[Hazell]

Last couple of games, Mignolet's been pretty solid I think? Made some good saves vs Stoke and dealt well with pretty much everything on Tuesday, bar that pass to Cambiasso - which he's obviously under instruction to play, I'm sure he would much rather kick it into Leicester's half than pass it to Skrtel from that position. Yeah, his distribution isn't his strongest attribute and thankfully we got away with it.

Actually agree with Rodgers in that we've looked more solid overall in recent games, we haven't dominated matches by any stretch but whereas previously we were conceding a lot of chances with out creating much, we've at least remedied to some extent the former. Lucas and Toure coming in has helped and on merit should really keeping their places. Great to see Gerrard perform like he did as well, a real blast from the past in a lot of respects and showed if use him further forward, he can still be devastating.

The only concern with that is the quality of the opposition we've faced, at the least I'd expect us to to perform similarly on Saturday (although hopefully some confidence after these victories will allow us to get some verve back into our attacking play) and even against Basel but with Arsenal coming up, we'll need to play better than we have been doing.

[kcbworth]

Agger's loss has been equal to losing big Sami. He made us tick, he would bring it when it counts and he would help us play from the back. The fact of the matter is that his inability to stay fit has cost us immensely. We would've won the fucking league if he hadn't injured himself picking up a bloody dumbbell at the gym. But it proved to be the end for him. He was clearly hurting and despite being our best defender he looked completely out of shape. He was barely recognisable against Newcastle and considering the team we put out that day and with Newcastle in absolute free fall, he still looked woefully out of it. I just don't see how he would have made the difference against the likes of Agbonlahor, Gayle and Zamora when he didn't look like he could last season and has since then been struggling to stay fit, to the point of not featuring for club and country. But that's just me.

Agree with your assessment of his influence, not sure I saw the same injury impact as others, but maybe I'm just blind.

In terms of round table discussions, yep we're still missing that classy CB that makes us tick, that's for sure

[stockdam]

Leicester appear to be a good side at home and looked the better team when they went down to 10 men.

But other than that I want to mention Lucas.

Not that long ago he was booed by our supporters and was given a torrid time here. He stuffed those attitudes up people's derrieres with very consistent displays. Unfortunately he then picked up a bad injury but once again he is starting to get back his form.

Granted he did use to give away a lot of cheap fouls but he has improved greatly in this area. He is certainly not the quickest player and this is probably his weakness. He can get caught out by speed.

OK enough of the Lucas love-in. What he does provide is not easy to appreciate. He'll play a short but quick pass under pressure and then moves quickly into space for the return pass. He keeps the ball moving and is very good at keeping possession. A lot of what he does is not flashy but it is effective. Whereas others are passing square or backwards he is moving the ball forwards in short sharp passes.

He will be one of the key players in our team once he gets back both his fitness and his confidence. At present he's not far away from both and I really hope he gets a long extended run in the team.

The win was important for our confidence and to take some pressure off both the team and the manager. Lucas had another good game and I expect that he'll grab hold of his place and quietly be the most important player in our up-turn in form.