Author Topic: Some quality/important posts you may have missed  (Read 767890 times)

Offline Marko B

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #400 on: October 20, 2010, 02:32:55 am »
I don't think it's too difficult to understand.

Many of us are too young to remember the Reds in their heyday. We'd been waiting patiently for our time to come again and under Benitez, to a degree, it did.
Our rapid ascent to the top of European football, the way we swept aside Europe's best, at times with ease. Two CL finals in three years, one win and an FA Cup. Not to mention a great league campaign in 08/09. We were a force in world football once again and it was excellent.

Yes, we didn't quite manage to win the league and last year was shit, but with him in charge I was content. I trusted him and thought that he would get it right eventually. I have never felt as confident as a Liverpool fan as I did under Rafa (I'm under 25). Hodgson is now my manager and I have no confidence. Who knows when we'll be on top of the world again. It took so long to witness it the first time and with all the destructive work that Roy's currently doing, it could be years before I see it again.

Saying that, I am quietly confident in our new owners. Hopefully they will hire the right people to take us back to where we should be, and try to rectify one of the poorest football decisions ever made. Roy Hodgson for Rafa Benitez. Give me strength!


Short, sweet and to the point.

Whether you agree or disagree as to the sentiment, this post provides a short synopsis as to why there are many who have still not gotten over Rafa and probably won't for some time yet.

You simply can't help the way you feel.
Quote from: Rafa Benitez
“I was not fighting for the power. I didn’t need more power. I was fighting for the future of the club.”

Offline Marko B

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #401 on: October 20, 2010, 02:38:47 am »


Great shout. Can't say I disagree with a word of that one.
Quote from: Rafa Benitez
“I was not fighting for the power. I didn’t need more power. I was fighting for the future of the club.”

Offline Shabby

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #402 on: October 21, 2010, 05:04:30 pm »
Another gem from E2K.

Just to follow up on my thoughts posted in the "The Job" thread regarding the (hoped-for) new manager and looking to the future. I think it's telling that some thought the thread to be an apology for Rafael Benitez even though it was solely intended to be forward-looking. Most people got that, some didn't. The thread has since had moments of back and forth arguments about Pellegrini, Rijkaard and a further mini-debate about Rafa's faults, successes, mistakes, etc. So much seems to come back around to him still. I sense that there's a deep wound here still being felt by a portion of the club's support that won't fully be healed until we get back what we've lost, what we feel cheated out of. Meanwhile, another section of fans are telling us "he's gone, get over him." But what we've lost isn't merely Rafael Benitez, it's what he represented, and until we have a man in charge with a vision and the talent to see it through, with ambition, who gets us (the supporters, the club, the city), who's a winner made of the same stuff as Shankly (and as far as myself and others like me are concerned, Rafa ticked all those boxes), then he'll be discussed, brought up, fondly remembered, and those who wanted him gone, don't miss him one bit or are just single-minded enough to forget him will tell us to stop talking about him. That's how it's going to be, and as I see it, there's only one to close this wound - the day another man walks into this club with a vision and the talent to see it through, with ambition, who gets us (the supporters, the club, the city), who's a winner made of the same stuff as Shankly. It doesn't have to be Rafa, but unless he ticks most of those boxes, there'll always be a certain sadness at what we were cheated out of.

What were we cheated out of and how? We were cheated out of seeing such a man realise his vision, first by his undermining by incompetent owners and managing directors, and then by his dismissal and replacement by someone his exact opposite, a man with no ambition, who sees a win at Goodison Park as a "utopia." And why? Was it really just the 7th place, or was it something else? Quite a few of us (probably the minority in truth, but a sizeable one) think not, and as a result, we feel cheated, still somewhat disenfranchised despite the exits of Hicks and Gillett, and angry. We feel like we're living in a parallel universe. The other dimension (where Rafa spent £300m on 100+ players) tells us that Benitez was rubbish and lucky to survive as long as he did, whereas over here in our little world he he was building a dynasty at Anfield, or at least attempting to, with lesser resources relative to his rivals. For them, Roy Hodgson is a better manager, for us he was made from the same stuff as Bill Shankly himself, a man whose ambition was to build Liverpool up and up and up until everyone else just gave in. To them he was a "cold political animal," to us he got the fans, the club and the city perfectly and always came across as one of us. He was dignified and polite, with a sense of humour and an unwillingness to allow just anyone into the inner-sanctum. He outed Hicks and Gillett as conmen, he understood Hillsborough and, most of all, he was a winner. Yes, we saw the mistakes, the games that got away from us, the signings that didn't work out, but those things never obscured the successes and the progress. No need to list them here, just follow the link below:

Most importantly of all, Benitez had a vision, to build us up and up and up until everyone else just gave in. Sound familiar? But he never got the chance to complete that vision, and hence we feel cheated. We feel cheated by how that came to pass. He made mistakes but the mistakes were magnified and twisted to obscure the brilliant work he did. His new employers from spring 2007 onwards undermined him at every turn, from the desecration of his transfer budget to meeting other managers behind his back. He dealt with a ravenous, insulting, in some cases xenophobic media who repeatedly criticised his methods even as they worked splendidly (e.g. zonal-marking, which earned Pepe Reina three Golden Gloves awards and a share of a fourth). It often got personal, and the deep-rooted resentment of him and attempted destruction of his reputation continues to this day. So we feel cheated, not only because a football manager made of the finest Shankly fibre wasn't able to complete his vision, but the manner in which it happened, and we resent those who made it happen - the media (pundits, writers, bloggers, whoever), Hicks and Gillett, Purslow, certain players who it now appears clear wanted him out for no positive reason, even sections of our own fellow supporters who wanted him out either because they were naive enough to think we'd get a Mourinho or because they were misguided enough to think that it was all Benitez's fault. He could take his share of the blame for some wrong turns, but he was far from finished. Alex Ferguson once led Manchester United to successive 11th and 13th place finishes. Managers sometimes have bad spells. The best recover.

And everytime idiots like Souness, Gray, Whelan, Lawrenson, Claridge, Merson, Dunphy or Collymore open their mouths, they twist the knife. Every time we concede soft goals or ask Torres to play like Bobby Zamora, every week we spend in the relegation zone, every boneheaded comment from our manager that makes us cringe, every time our team goes out and shows neither fight nor tactical awareness, every time we see promising, creative players like Aquilani, Insua and Agger marginalised or bombed out altogether, every time we see Paul Konchecky taken to the cleaners by a winger (be it Nani or Seamus Coleman), every time we see Christian Poulsen do anything (or not, as the case may be), every time we see Agger on the bench or at left-back, we are reminded of what we lost. Again, I repeat, NOT JUST RAFA, but an ambitious, talented manager with a plan. To those who want us to get over that, let me ask you this: can you give that back to us? Can NESV? Hopefully. Whoever it is will have to tick some of those boxes mentioned earlier, and if they do and get us back to winning ways, then someday the wound might heal (I really hope it does). For now, John W. Henry has been the disinfectant that stopped the wound going septic, but it's still there. He's gone, get over him? Then why, almost five months after his exit, do articles and broadcasts appear almost every day seeking to put the blame on him for Roy Hodgson's mediocre start as Liverpool boss? Well I've got a shocking admission, Rafa is partially to blame for Hodgson looking so bad - he gave him an impossible act to follow. And it's the act we're still remembering every bit as much as the man.
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Offline the 92A

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #403 on: October 21, 2010, 06:36:34 pm »
Another gem from E2K.


Sums up my feelings at the moment.
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Offline the 92A

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #404 on: October 22, 2010, 08:52:37 pm »
E2k starts it then that fucker Fat Scouser weighs in, writing stuff that I was going to write, its scary when someone writes something that sums up exactly how your feel but two in as many days......
 
 
 
   Right...
Anyone who knows me, either in real life or on here, knows what I thought/think of Rafa. I make no bones about it, I love the fella and rate him up there alongside our great managers of the past.
 
But just talking about in here in RAWK, when some started to question Rafa, I stayed calm. I didn't kick off on them. I just tried to defend him and make them see the real causes why we weren't progressing for the first time under his tuttilage.

I know loads of other people on here also seen the madness in solely blaming Rafa, and tried to calmly explain why we needed to back him through what then seemed a bit of a crissis. But by this time, the others, even the most reasonable of them, wanted a change. Nothing would convince them that it would be a mistake. The gobshites amongst them just wanted to lash out. And by the time, we'd finished 7th that was that... they all wanted a head on the plate.

I'd never felt so ashamed of Liverpool supporters. This was against everything I loved our support for. I'm not some mysty eyed old romantic. Like everyone else, I'd seen the Liverpool Way slowly erroding for years, but I was still shocked at how quickly some people turned on a fella that had fought tooth and nail for us, even with his hands tied behind his back.

I thought the lowest we could get was booing a draw that sent us to the top of the league. But when the knives came out for Rafa so early in the next season, I was honestly shocked and disgusted.

Worse though, I couldn't believe how the once most knowledgable fans in the game, started spouting force fed media drivel as gospel. And when people who's opinions I normally respect started saying things that sounded like the script of Ford Super Sunday, I knew it was all over.

I packed in bothering to talk to them, but watched nad knocked me head on the wall, as wise old hands tried to explain what absolute madness it would be to sack the best manager we'd had in 20 years over one "bad season."

But no matter what got said, out there and in here, by some very knowledgable Reds, young and old, the Rafa Out brigade ploughed on regardless. They wouldn't heed any warning. They didn't want to know about any consequences. They wanted vengance. They went for blood. Some might say that's over the top. I don't care. I seen it and I say what I seen...
I had Reds at the match, telling how much they "hated Benitez."
I argued constantly at the game, in the alehouse, in the street, on here, with people who knew "our fall and predicament" was all down to him, The Stubborn Spaniard who didn't get the English league and refused to change.
I even seen idiots joining in with "sacked in the morning" chants coming from opposing fans and thinking it was funny.

Well, I hold these people as guilty as H&G for the state we find ourselves in.

Make no mistake, these people created the atmoshpere that emboldened Cecil and gave him the platform to sack Rafa "By mutual consent" while Rafa was on holiday. They are every bit as guilty as the media that gave Broughton the excuse.

The worst of them all, were the ones who came on here, and the likes of Talk Shite, pontificating why Hodgson should be given a chance. His "great season" with Fulham was proof enough that the Fat Spanish Waiter had to go and Uncle Roy should be given his chance at a big club.

And by this time, no matter what anyone did or said to warn them, they not only ploughed on regardless, they ploughed on with glee, calling anyone who disagreed with them Raffatollahs and idiots. Well, as we all now know, to our cost, they got their way.

When it eventually happened and there was Roy at his un-vieling being spoken for by Martin, I can't explain how angry and saddened I was. But after having me kick off on a few of the idiots that helped it, if not forced it, to happen , I done what I thought was right...
I backed the new manager of Liverpool Football Club.

It was what I was taught. I knew it was a step down, but I believed it was what I should do. I knew it was a mistake, but I hoped for the best. And I backed Roy because I thought that was the right thing to do.

I watched the shite pre-season, but I said he's our manager, we respect our own. He needs and deserves the same backing and loyalty that we've given to all our previous managers.

I even argued that with people who's opinions I respected. When they lamanted trading in a European Cup winning manager for a fella who'd never won anything but media acclaim, I argued with them that he was ours and so he should be given respect and time.

Even as the results and performances went bad from worse, I tried to tell people they needed to have a little patientce. Inside I was seething more than when we sacked Rafa and brought Roy in, but I did what I thought was right, and backed him in the hope he'd turn it round.

Then they started. I knew they would, but fuck me, they was quick...
The exact same people that screamed Rafa out, Roy in, were the quickest to turn on Roy.

That was no surprise. And I wasn't surprised when meself and other "Rafatollah's" ended up bollacking them and defending their man Roy against them.

And I'm still glad I done that. I can look meself in the eye for defending him - even though I knew it was wrong, and even though I felt like spewing up everytime I looked at Roy in our club gear on the touch line or spouting shite to the media.

I'll get pulled for all that. So what. I don't give a toss. And I'm not trying to make meself out to be some sort of uber supporter or even a decent fella. I can be a right twat, but I was ingrained in the old Liverpool Way. Throwing that away doesn't come easy. And funny enough, in a way that's why I can't stand Roy.

More than the bad results, the bad performances, the baffling/embarrasing statements, the woeful treatment of some players while kissing the arse off others, I hate Roy for making me turn against the last little bit of our tradition...
Not only can I not back him, I have to call for his head. I don't like doing that. It goes against everything, but he gives me no choice.

Most people will laugh at that nowadays. I don't care. I don't want to be part of modern football or it's ways. I want to back our manager, no matter how bad we are on the pitch. I want to stick a finger up to everyone out there and fight for our own. I'm getting on. I don't want to watch X-Factor, when I can turn on The Clash. I hate this ridiculous throw away society of instant gratification and no substance. But this old bastard is not one of ours...
He has to go, and go sharpish before he causes anymore damage.
But, and I truly mean this, I will always hate the people who got him the job, especially "our own Supporters," far more than I will hate Hodgson for taking it.

You should all hang your heads in shame. And I hope you've learnt your lesson. But sadly, I can see the same old guard defending the next fella to take the job as soon as the team loses it's first toss up under his tenure.

Modern football, modern supporters... you can shove it up your jacksie.   
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Offline Aristotle

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #405 on: October 26, 2010, 01:47:16 am »
Think this one deserves an honerable mention

There's the language of European football, which talks about football in terms of teams and systems. Then there is the language of English football, which talks about football in terms of individuals. The last couple of pages has shown the divide, in what I call the English disease. English traditionalists can't see the game in terms of the overall team, because the very language in which English football is discussed focuses on the individual. After Liverpool were outplayed by other top European teams in the 60s, Shankly knew something had to change, and began redirecting Liverpool's football to a more European model. His work in this became known as the on-pitch section of the Liverpool Way. All the talk about pass and move, how Liverpool's football was different and special, was just Shankly's refocusing of Liverpool's football to a European team-based integrated system. Once the implicit understanding of that was lost, there would inevitably be a move back towards the English baseline of individual-based reading of football, because the language English football is discussed in focuses on that. The influx of foreign coaches has led to a greater understanding of the European model among managers and coaches, and pan-European enthusiasts have tried to develop a language that can better describe the European model. But most English fans still discuss football in the language of English football, and Liverpool is no exception, as can be seen here. That's why the England team will always tend towards shitness, whatever the merits of its individual players.
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Offline Slave

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #406 on: October 26, 2010, 02:15:33 am »
Another gem from E2K.

   Right...

Modern football, modern supporters... you can shove it up your jacksie.   

Brilliant stuff. Absolutely spot on.
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Offline new-red

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #407 on: October 26, 2010, 02:29:43 am »
Quote from: Fat Scouser
Right...
Anyone who knows me, either in real life or on here, knows what I thought/think of Rafa. I make no bones about it, I love the fella and rate him up there alongside our great managers of the past.
 
But just talking about in here in RAWK, when some started to question Rafa, I stayed calm. I didn't kick off on them. I just tried to defend him and make them see the real causes why we weren't progressing for the first time under his tuttilage.

I know loads of other people on here also seen the madness in solely blaming Rafa, and tried to calmly explain why we needed to back him through what then seemed a bit of a crissis. But by this time, the others, even the most reasonable of them, wanted a change. Nothing would convince them that it would be a mistake. The gobshites amongst them just wanted to lash out. And by the time, we'd finished 7th that was that... they all wanted a head on the plate.

I'd never felt so ashamed of Liverpool supporters. This was against everything I loved our support for. I'm not some mysty eyed old romantic. Like everyone else, I'd seen the Liverpool Way slowly erroding for years, but I was still shocked at how quickly some people turned on a fella that had fought tooth and nail for us, even with his hands tied behind his back.

I thought the lowest we could get was booing a draw that sent us to the top of the league. But when the knives came out for Rafa so early in the next season, I was honestly shocked and disgusted.

Worse though, I couldn't believe how the once most knowledgable fans in the game, started spouting force fed media drivel as gospel. And when people who's opinions I normally respect started saying things that sounded like the script of Ford Super Sunday, I knew it was all over.

I packed in bothering to talk to them, but watched nad knocked me head on the wall, as wise old hands tried to explain what absolute madness it would be to sack the best manager we'd had in 20 years over one "bad season."

But no matter what got said, out there and in here, by some very knowledgable Reds, young and old, the Rafa Out brigade ploughed on regardless. They wouldn't heed any warning. They didn't want to know about any consequences. They wanted vengance. They went for blood. Some might say that's over the top. I don't care. I seen it and I say what I seen...
I had Reds at the match, telling how much they "hated Benitez."
I argued constantly at the game, in the alehouse, in the street, on here, with people who knew "our fall and predicament" was all down to him, The Stubborn Spaniard who didn't get the English league and refused to change.
I even seen idiots joining in with "sacked in the morning" chants coming from opposing fans and thinking it was funny.

Well, I hold these people as guilty as H&G for the state we find ourselves in.

Make no mistake, these people created the atmoshpere that emboldened Cecil and gave him the platform to sack Rafa "By mutual consent" while Rafa was on holiday. They are every bit as guilty as the media that gave Broughton the excuse.

The worst of them all, were the ones who came on here, and the likes of Talk Shite, pontificating why Hodgson should be given a chance. His "great season" with Fulham was proof enough that the Fat Spanish Waiter had to go and Uncle Roy should be given his chance at a big club.

And by this time, no matter what anyone did or said to warn them, they not only ploughed on regardless, they ploughed on with glee, calling anyone who disagreed with them Raffatollahs and idiots. Well, as we all now know, to our cost, they got their way.

When it eventually happened and there was Roy at his un-vieling being spoken for by Martin, I can't explain how angry and saddened I was. But after having me kick off on a few of the idiots that helped it, if not forced it, to happen , I done what I thought was right...
I backed the new manager of Liverpool Football Club.

It was what I was taught. I knew it was a step down, but I believed it was what I should do. I knew it was a mistake, but I hoped for the best. And I backed Roy because I thought that was the right thing to do.

I watched the shite pre-season, but I said he's our manager, we respect our own. He needs and deserves the same backing and loyalty that we've given to all our previous managers.

I even argued that with people who's opinions I respected. When they lamanted trading in a European Cup winning manager for a fella who'd never won anything but media acclaim, I argued with them that he was ours and so he should be given respect and time.

Even as the results and performances went bad from worse, I tried to tell people they needed to have a little patientce. Inside I was seething more than when we sacked Rafa and brought Roy in, but I did what I thought was right, and backed him in the hope he'd turn it round.

Then they started. I knew they would, but fuck me, they was quick...
The exact same people that screamed Rafa out, Roy in, were the quickest to turn on Roy.

That was no surprise. And I wasn't surprised when meself and other "Rafatollah's" ended up bollacking them and defending their man Roy against them.

And I'm still glad I done that. I can look meself in the eye for defending him - even though I knew it was wrong, and even though I felt like spewing up everytime I looked at Roy in our club gear on the touch line or spouting shite to the media.

I'll get pulled for all that. So what. I don't give a toss. And I'm not trying to make meself out to be some sort of uber supporter or even a decent fella. I can be a right twat, but I was ingrained in the old Liverpool Way. Throwing that away doesn't come easy. And funny enough, in a way that's why I can't stand Roy.

More than the bad results, the bad performances, the baffling/embarrasing statements, the woeful treatment of some players while kissing the arse off others, I hate Roy for making me turn against the last little bit of our tradition...
Not only can I not back him, I have to call for his head. I don't like doing that. It goes against everything, but he gives me no choice.

Most people will laugh at that nowadays. I don't care. I don't want to be part of modern football or it's ways. I want to back our manager, no matter how bad we are on the pitch. I want to stick a finger up to everyone out there and fight for our own. I'm getting on. I don't want to watch X-Factor, when I can turn on The Clash. I hate this ridiculous throw away society of instant gratification and no substance. But this old bastard is not one of ours...
He has to go, and go sharpish before he causes anymore damage.
But, and I truly mean this, I will always hate the people who got him the job, especially "our own Supporters," far more than I will hate Hodgson for taking it.

You should all hang your heads in shame. And I hope you've learnt your lesson. But sadly, I can see the same old guard defending the next fella to take the job as soon as the team loses it's first toss up under his tenure.

Modern football, modern supporters... you can shove it up your jacksie.   

IMO, the best poster on this board. I have rarely seen him truly say what he means because he is always joking in threads but this is a truly powerful post. FS will always have my utmost respect.
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Offline dzaek

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #408 on: October 26, 2010, 02:46:44 am »
Short, sweet and to the point.

Whether you agree or disagree as to the sentiment, this post provides a short synopsis as to why there are many who have still not gotten over Rafa and probably won't for some time yet.

You simply can't help the way you feel.

Spot on.

We trusted Rafa because he's building a system of play.

Rather than player-dependent, he chose to play with a system-dependent. this means that, with the system in place, regardless of which player in position, he should carry out his job easily. (think macdonald's)

just like what manure, arse and Chelsea have now: a system.

wenger ensures that chamakh comes in seamlessly.

saf has hernandez in without hiccups.

Chelsea, less assuringly, hes such a system in place.

luckily, city has yet  a system.

we used to have a system in rafa. now roy is shiiting it up.
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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #409 on: October 26, 2010, 05:58:34 am »
IMO, the best poster on this board. I have rarely seen him truly say what he means because he is always joking in threads but this is a truly powerful post. FS will always have my utmost respect.

fuck me. good and honest post that FS.
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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #410 on: October 26, 2010, 11:59:06 am »

Sums up my feelings at the moment.

Mine too mate
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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #411 on: October 26, 2010, 12:34:54 pm »
E2k starts it then that fucker Fat Scouser weighs in, writing stuff that I was going to write, its scary when someone writes something that sums up exactly how your feel but two in as many days......
 
 
 
   Right...
Anyone who knows me, either in real life or on here, knows what I thought/think of Rafa. I make no bones about it, I love the fella and rate him up there alongside our great managers of the past.
 
But just talking about in here in RAWK, when some started to question Rafa, I stayed calm. I didn't kick off on them. I just tried to defend him and make them see the real causes why we weren't progressing for the first time under his tuttilage.

I know loads of other people on here also seen the madness in solely blaming Rafa, and tried to calmly explain why we needed to back him through what then seemed a bit of a crissis. But by this time, the others, even the most reasonable of them, wanted a change. Nothing would convince them that it would be a mistake. The gobshites amongst them just wanted to lash out. And by the time, we'd finished 7th that was that... they all wanted a head on the plate.

I'd never felt so ashamed of Liverpool supporters. This was against everything I loved our support for. I'm not some mysty eyed old romantic. Like everyone else, I'd seen the Liverpool Way slowly erroding for years, but I was still shocked at how quickly some people turned on a fella that had fought tooth and nail for us, even with his hands tied behind his back.

I thought the lowest we could get was booing a draw that sent us to the top of the league. But when the knives came out for Rafa so early in the next season, I was honestly shocked and disgusted.

Worse though, I couldn't believe how the once most knowledgable fans in the game, started spouting force fed media drivel as gospel. And when people who's opinions I normally respect started saying things that sounded like the script of Ford Super Sunday, I knew it was all over.

I packed in bothering to talk to them, but watched nad knocked me head on the wall, as wise old hands tried to explain what absolute madness it would be to sack the best manager we'd had in 20 years over one "bad season."

But no matter what got said, out there and in here, by some very knowledgable Reds, young and old, the Rafa Out brigade ploughed on regardless. They wouldn't heed any warning. They didn't want to know about any consequences. They wanted vengance. They went for blood. Some might say that's over the top. I don't care. I seen it and I say what I seen...
I had Reds at the match, telling how much they "hated Benitez."
I argued constantly at the game, in the alehouse, in the street, on here, with people who knew "our fall and predicament" was all down to him, The Stubborn Spaniard who didn't get the English league and refused to change.
I even seen idiots joining in with "sacked in the morning" chants coming from opposing fans and thinking it was funny.

Well, I hold these people as guilty as H&G for the state we find ourselves in.

Make no mistake, these people created the atmoshpere that emboldened Cecil and gave him the platform to sack Rafa "By mutual consent" while Rafa was on holiday. They are every bit as guilty as the media that gave Broughton the excuse.

The worst of them all, were the ones who came on here, and the likes of Talk Shite, pontificating why Hodgson should be given a chance. His "great season" with Fulham was proof enough that the Fat Spanish Waiter had to go and Uncle Roy should be given his chance at a big club.

And by this time, no matter what anyone did or said to warn them, they not only ploughed on regardless, they ploughed on with glee, calling anyone who disagreed with them Raffatollahs and idiots. Well, as we all now know, to our cost, they got their way.

When it eventually happened and there was Roy at his un-vieling being spoken for by Martin, I can't explain how angry and saddened I was. But after having me kick off on a few of the idiots that helped it, if not forced it, to happen , I done what I thought was right...
I backed the new manager of Liverpool Football Club.

It was what I was taught. I knew it was a step down, but I believed it was what I should do. I knew it was a mistake, but I hoped for the best. And I backed Roy because I thought that was the right thing to do.

I watched the shite pre-season, but I said he's our manager, we respect our own. He needs and deserves the same backing and loyalty that we've given to all our previous managers.

I even argued that with people who's opinions I respected. When they lamanted trading in a European Cup winning manager for a fella who'd never won anything but media acclaim, I argued with them that he was ours and so he should be given respect and time.

Even as the results and performances went bad from worse, I tried to tell people they needed to have a little patientce. Inside I was seething more than when we sacked Rafa and brought Roy in, but I did what I thought was right, and backed him in the hope he'd turn it round.

Then they started. I knew they would, but fuck me, they was quick...
The exact same people that screamed Rafa out, Roy in, were the quickest to turn on Roy.

That was no surprise. And I wasn't surprised when meself and other "Rafatollah's" ended up bollacking them and defending their man Roy against them.

And I'm still glad I done that. I can look meself in the eye for defending him - even though I knew it was wrong, and even though I felt like spewing up everytime I looked at Roy in our club gear on the touch line or spouting shite to the media.

I'll get pulled for all that. So what. I don't give a toss. And I'm not trying to make meself out to be some sort of uber supporter or even a decent fella. I can be a right twat, but I was ingrained in the old Liverpool Way. Throwing that away doesn't come easy. And funny enough, in a way that's why I can't stand Roy.

More than the bad results, the bad performances, the baffling/embarrasing statements, the woeful treatment of some players while kissing the arse off others, I hate Roy for making me turn against the last little bit of our tradition...
Not only can I not back him, I have to call for his head. I don't like doing that. It goes against everything, but he gives me no choice.

Most people will laugh at that nowadays. I don't care. I don't want to be part of modern football or it's ways. I want to back our manager, no matter how bad we are on the pitch. I want to stick a finger up to everyone out there and fight for our own. I'm getting on. I don't want to watch X-Factor, when I can turn on The Clash. I hate this ridiculous throw away society of instant gratification and no substance. But this old bastard is not one of ours...
He has to go, and go sharpish before he causes anymore damage.
But, and I truly mean this, I will always hate the people who got him the job, especially "our own Supporters," far more than I will hate Hodgson for taking it.

You should all hang your heads in shame. And I hope you've learnt your lesson. But sadly, I can see the same old guard defending the next fella to take the job as soon as the team loses it's first toss up under his tenure.

Modern football, modern supporters... you can shove it up your jacksie.   

92A, As you say mate,  2 absolutely brilliant posts in two days
"Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and making yourself available to receive a pass, it is really that simple"

"Friend, mourn not, though he premature departs, his wisdom marches on within our hearts"
  
RIP Ray Osbourne, comrade, epic swindler, and Internet Terrorist Extraordinaire.

Offline El Campeador

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #412 on: October 28, 2010, 04:41:48 am »
E2k starts it then that fucker Fat Scouser weighs in, writing stuff that I was going to write, its scary when someone writes something that sums up exactly how your feel but two in as many days......
 
 
 
   Right...
Anyone who knows me, either in real life or on here, knows what I thought/think of Rafa. I make no bones about it, I love the fella and rate him up there alongside our great managers of the past.
 
But just talking about in here in RAWK, when some started to question Rafa, I stayed calm. I didn't kick off on them. I just tried to defend him and make them see the real causes why we weren't progressing for the first time under his tuttilage.

I know loads of other people on here also seen the madness in solely blaming Rafa, and tried to calmly explain why we needed to back him through what then seemed a bit of a crissis. But by this time, the others, even the most reasonable of them, wanted a change. Nothing would convince them that it would be a mistake. The gobshites amongst them just wanted to lash out. And by the time, we'd finished 7th that was that... they all wanted a head on the plate.

I'd never felt so ashamed of Liverpool supporters. This was against everything I loved our support for. I'm not some mysty eyed old romantic. Like everyone else, I'd seen the Liverpool Way slowly erroding for years, but I was still shocked at how quickly some people turned on a fella that had fought tooth and nail for us, even with his hands tied behind his back.

I thought the lowest we could get was booing a draw that sent us to the top of the league. But when the knives came out for Rafa so early in the next season, I was honestly shocked and disgusted.

Worse though, I couldn't believe how the once most knowledgable fans in the game, started spouting force fed media drivel as gospel. And when people who's opinions I normally respect started saying things that sounded like the script of Ford Super Sunday, I knew it was all over.

I packed in bothering to talk to them, but watched nad knocked me head on the wall, as wise old hands tried to explain what absolute madness it would be to sack the best manager we'd had in 20 years over one "bad season."

But no matter what got said, out there and in here, by some very knowledgable Reds, young and old, the Rafa Out brigade ploughed on regardless. They wouldn't heed any warning. They didn't want to know about any consequences. They wanted vengance. They went for blood. Some might say that's over the top. I don't care. I seen it and I say what I seen...
I had Reds at the match, telling how much they "hated Benitez."
I argued constantly at the game, in the alehouse, in the street, on here, with people who knew "our fall and predicament" was all down to him, The Stubborn Spaniard who didn't get the English league and refused to change.
I even seen idiots joining in with "sacked in the morning" chants coming from opposing fans and thinking it was funny.

Well, I hold these people as guilty as H&G for the state we find ourselves in.

Make no mistake, these people created the atmoshpere that emboldened Cecil and gave him the platform to sack Rafa "By mutual consent" while Rafa was on holiday. They are every bit as guilty as the media that gave Broughton the excuse.

The worst of them all, were the ones who came on here, and the likes of Talk Shite, pontificating why Hodgson should be given a chance. His "great season" with Fulham was proof enough that the Fat Spanish Waiter had to go and Uncle Roy should be given his chance at a big club.

And by this time, no matter what anyone did or said to warn them, they not only ploughed on regardless, they ploughed on with glee, calling anyone who disagreed with them Raffatollahs and idiots. Well, as we all now know, to our cost, they got their way.

When it eventually happened and there was Roy at his un-vieling being spoken for by Martin, I can't explain how angry and saddened I was. But after having me kick off on a few of the idiots that helped it, if not forced it, to happen , I done what I thought was right...
I backed the new manager of Liverpool Football Club.

It was what I was taught. I knew it was a step down, but I believed it was what I should do. I knew it was a mistake, but I hoped for the best. And I backed Roy because I thought that was the right thing to do.

I watched the shite pre-season, but I said he's our manager, we respect our own. He needs and deserves the same backing and loyalty that we've given to all our previous managers.

I even argued that with people who's opinions I respected. When they lamanted trading in a European Cup winning manager for a fella who'd never won anything but media acclaim, I argued with them that he was ours and so he should be given respect and time.

Even as the results and performances went bad from worse, I tried to tell people they needed to have a little patientce. Inside I was seething more than when we sacked Rafa and brought Roy in, but I did what I thought was right, and backed him in the hope he'd turn it round.

Then they started. I knew they would, but fuck me, they was quick...
The exact same people that screamed Rafa out, Roy in, were the quickest to turn on Roy.

That was no surprise. And I wasn't surprised when meself and other "Rafatollah's" ended up bollacking them and defending their man Roy against them.

And I'm still glad I done that. I can look meself in the eye for defending him - even though I knew it was wrong, and even though I felt like spewing up everytime I looked at Roy in our club gear on the touch line or spouting shite to the media.

I'll get pulled for all that. So what. I don't give a toss. And I'm not trying to make meself out to be some sort of uber supporter or even a decent fella. I can be a right twat, but I was ingrained in the old Liverpool Way. Throwing that away doesn't come easy. And funny enough, in a way that's why I can't stand Roy.

More than the bad results, the bad performances, the baffling/embarrasing statements, the woeful treatment of some players while kissing the arse off others, I hate Roy for making me turn against the last little bit of our tradition...
Not only can I not back him, I have to call for his head. I don't like doing that. It goes against everything, but he gives me no choice.

Most people will laugh at that nowadays. I don't care. I don't want to be part of modern football or it's ways. I want to back our manager, no matter how bad we are on the pitch. I want to stick a finger up to everyone out there and fight for our own. I'm getting on. I don't want to watch X-Factor, when I can turn on The Clash. I hate this ridiculous throw away society of instant gratification and no substance. But this old bastard is not one of ours...
He has to go, and go sharpish before he causes anymore damage.
But, and I truly mean this, I will always hate the people who got him the job, especially "our own Supporters," far more than I will hate Hodgson for taking it.

You should all hang your heads in shame. And I hope you've learnt your lesson. But sadly, I can see the same old guard defending the next fella to take the job as soon as the team loses it's first toss up under his tenure.

Modern football, modern supporters... you can shove it up your jacksie.   

Thanks for that, Fats.

Offline mercury

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #413 on: October 28, 2010, 07:35:37 am »
Thanks for all these posts, especially 92K and Fats.  Simply, Rafa is one of us.

We know what we have lost.  We know how wrong the sacking was, though I thought then it's probably best for Rafa.  He tried everything, fought toe and nail (that's a reason why we love and admire him, isn't it? This man fights!).  He really looked caged and tired and the prospect of new ownership did not look good then. 

But it only took less than six months for us to get the new owners afterwards.  The euphoria cannot quite take away the bitter taste left in my mouth on what might have been.

We just have to move forward, we have no choice.  Such is life and destiny.  For myself, never those conspired in the folly will be forgotten. 

Offline Buzz Killington

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #414 on: October 28, 2010, 08:14:25 am »
Excellent reads

Offline Alonso

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #415 on: October 28, 2010, 08:40:05 am »
Excellent reads

+1

We miss you Rafa. :(

Offline edmundljs

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #416 on: October 28, 2010, 08:49:15 am »
Hear Hear!!!

Offline the good half

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #417 on: October 28, 2010, 11:07:13 am »
The best thread on RAWK.
100% made from concentrate.
No artificial colours or (heaven forbid) sweetners.

Im gonna make a cuppa and read lots of this.

Offline Brian Blessed

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #418 on: November 4, 2010, 12:52:34 pm »
I thought was an excellent article, maybe even to split off into it's own topic.

Damned lies, statistics and sabermetrics

By John Sinnott

Much like Rafael Benitez's time as Liverpool manager the arrival of Damien Comolli at Anfield as the club's director of football strategy is likely to divide opinion both with fans and pundits - good or bad, genius or idiot?

The position of director of football has become almost a dirty word within English football and it is hard to think of an example in the Premier League where it has not ended in tears.

The 38-year-old Comolli, who has been recruited from St Etienne, is a prime example. His time as Tottenham's director of football ended acrimoniously when he was dismissed along with manager Juande Ramos after the club's dreadful start to the 2008-09 season.

Across the Channel the picture is very different and most top European clubs have a director of football overseeing the club's strategy.

"The English model hasn't worked because chairmen haven't matched the right types," European scout Tor-Kristian Karlsen, who has worked for German clubs Hannover 96 and Bayer Leverkusen, told BBC Sport.

"Structurally, it always makes sense that the director of football arrives before the head coach or manager, so he can have a hand in appointing a person who shares his vision.

"It's key that the director of football has no coaching ambitions and that the training ground is the manager's domain - the areas of responsibility must be clearly defined as grey areas just create conflicts."

When Norwegian Karlsen was working for Leverkusen, the Bundesliga club's transfer operation was so profitable that it funded the BayArena outfit's entire operation.

Key to the success of Leverkusen, who reached the Champions League final in 2002, was then general manager Reiner Calmund, who was an ever present figure at the club as coaches came and went.

Leverkusen had 20 international scouts, five of them working full-time - one each in Brazil and Argentina - earning 50,000 euros (£44,000) a year.

"The philosophy was to be self sufficient and to buy up-and-coming young exciting players, often from Brazil, which Leverkusen could develop and sell on," the 35-year-old Karlsen added.

"Players like Dimitar Berbatov, Lucio, Juan, Ze Roberto and Emerson are good examples of this strategy."

Some of the players Comolli brought to White Hart Lane - Gareth Bale and Benoit Assou-Ekotto for example - provide a clue as to the Frenchman's modus operandi; buy young talent to ensure maximum resale value if they are to be sold on.

Comolli was also responsible for the signing current Tottenham squad members Luka Modric, Heurelho Gomes, David Bentley, Vedran Corluka and Roman Pavlyuchenko, as well as bringing current Manchester United striker Dimitar Berbatov into English football.

"Big wages and relatively high fees for players in their late 20s and early 30s does not fit with New England Sport Venture's vision," said writer Paul Tomkins, who recently met John W Henry for lunch after Liverpool's owner contacted him on Facebook, having read his books.

"Sometimes you need to pick up a canny older player as a bargain, but the average age of Joe Cole, Christian Poulsen, Raul Meireles and Paul Konchesky, plus the re-signed Fabio Aurelio, is 30," Tomkins continued.

"So far, only Meireles of those five has impressed Liverpool fans this season. I hope it can get back to how the likes of Pepe Reina, Fernando Torres, Javier Mascherano, Daniel Agger and Xabi Alonso, who were all bought when they were in their early 20s."

Liverpool's takeover by NESV prompted a swathe of newspaper articles suggesting that the Boston Red Sox's owners wanted to introduce the principle of sabermetrics to the Premier League.

Using statistical analysis to recruit players rather than rely on the subjective judgement of coaches and scouts, sabermetrics was an idea developed by baseball fan Bill James.

It was an idea put to the test with some success by the Oakland 'A's general manager Billy Beane and author Michael Lewis wrote the book "Moneyball" about the story, which is now being filmed, with Brad Pitt starring.

In the past Comolli has talked of his friendship with Beane, who Henry tried to bring to the Red Sox before hiring James as a consultant, while Chelsea's performance director Mike Forde is a disciple of sabermetrics.

Tomkins' latest book "Pay As You Play", which has been talked of as the football equivalent of "Moneyball", looks at the relationship between money and success in the Premier League.

"The data shows that it wasn't purely money behind [Sir] Alex Ferguson's success at Manchester United, but that in some seasons - particularly the first few years, and at times when rivals posed a greater threat - it played a more pronounced role," wrote Tomkins and his co-authors Graeme Riley and Gary Fulcher.

That conclusion suggests that as much as NESV want to obtain more 'bang for their buck' in the transfer market if Liverpool are to win the Premier League in the future plenty of greenbacks will be needed. That is the size of the task facing Comolli.

Karlsen, however, remains sceptical about the application of statistical analysis to the business of talent identification.

"Baseball consists of set pieces, so it's perfect for cricket," argued Karlsen. "But football has too many variables, cultures and styles. It's difficult to rate players merely on statistics. Sabermetrics is a bit of a red herring in relation to football."

For Karlsen, who has described identifying talent as like "detective work", the key principles to transfers are timing, the ability to target cheaper and developing markets and to always have a resale value in mind.

"In addition to possessing the trained eye, what's really important is to understand the relationship between value and quality so you can compare players from different countries or even continents and their respective attributes and measure up which player represent best value," he commented.

The Norwegian pointed to his recommendation to German team Hannover to buy Hungarian international midfielder Szabolcs Huszti from French club Metz for £200,000, who was then sold to Russian team Zenit St Petersburg for £2.5m.

"Huszti might not be a household name but this transfer illustrates that you can create value and a business model out of shrewd player transactions," said Karlsen, who worked under Graham Taylor at Watford between 1998 and 2000.

"It's about knowing the world wide markets, prices and sniffing out an opportunity."

Another top European scout, who works for a top-four Premier League club, has also questioned whether statistical analysis would ever be able to evaluate a player's character.

"It's very important to consider a player's mentality. We have a very good spirit at our club, so you have to be very careful. If you bring two or three players with a bad attitude it could be disastrous," the scout, who did not want to be named, told BBC Sport.

"You don't have to have been a player to excel as a scout, but when you've played it's almost as if you can smell a good player. That's why it is important to watch players over a long period."

Key for this scout, who has been working for his club for eight years, was to build a long-term, trusting relationship with the manager and to be always watching and analysing.

"I love my life and football is my passion. I watch football all the time, even when I'm home, sometimes three games in an evening on televsion. My girlfriend hasn't watched a movie in six months," he added.

Like Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger, there is a little that Comolli does not know about the French market but Karlsen has suggested Liverpool's new football strategist should also look elsewhere as he goes about the business of reshaping Anfield's transfer operation.

"First and foremost Liverpool should devote a minimum 25% of their resources to exploiting their local area. There's nothing that excites a Liverpool fan more than when a local academy kid pulls on that red strip," Karlsen said.

"He should also keep a close eye on the German market. It's undervalued if you compare the quality to the going rates, even compared to France. Holland, Spain and Italy are also expensive markets with great domestic competition for the best talent."

There are just over 50 days to the opening of the January transfer window. No pressure then on Comolli.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/9156815.stm

Offline norfolkandchance

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #419 on: November 4, 2010, 01:10:31 pm »
E2k starts it then that fucker Fat Scouser weighs in, writing stuff that I was going to write, its scary when someone writes something that sums up exactly how your feel but two in as many days......
 
 
 
   Right...
Anyone who knows me, either in real life or on here, knows what I thought/think of Rafa. I make no bones about it, I love the fella and rate him up there alongside our great managers of the past.
 
But just talking about in here in RAWK, when some started to question Rafa, I stayed calm. I didn't kick off on them. I just tried to defend him and make them see the real causes why we weren't progressing for the first time under his tuttilage.

I know loads of other people on here also seen the madness in solely blaming Rafa, and tried to calmly explain why we needed to back him through what then seemed a bit of a crissis. But by this time, the others, even the most reasonable of them, wanted a change. Nothing would convince them that it would be a mistake. The gobshites amongst them just wanted to lash out. And by the time, we'd finished 7th that was that... they all wanted a head on the plate.

I'd never felt so ashamed of Liverpool supporters. This was against everything I loved our support for. I'm not some mysty eyed old romantic. Like everyone else, I'd seen the Liverpool Way slowly erroding for years, but I was still shocked at how quickly some people turned on a fella that had fought tooth and nail for us, even with his hands tied behind his back.

I thought the lowest we could get was booing a draw that sent us to the top of the league. But when the knives came out for Rafa so early in the next season, I was honestly shocked and disgusted.

Worse though, I couldn't believe how the once most knowledgable fans in the game, started spouting force fed media drivel as gospel. And when people who's opinions I normally respect started saying things that sounded like the script of Ford Super Sunday, I knew it was all over.

I packed in bothering to talk to them, but watched nad knocked me head on the wall, as wise old hands tried to explain what absolute madness it would be to sack the best manager we'd had in 20 years over one "bad season."

But no matter what got said, out there and in here, by some very knowledgable Reds, young and old, the Rafa Out brigade ploughed on regardless. They wouldn't heed any warning. They didn't want to know about any consequences. They wanted vengance. They went for blood. Some might say that's over the top. I don't care. I seen it and I say what I seen...
I had Reds at the match, telling how much they "hated Benitez."
I argued constantly at the game, in the alehouse, in the street, on here, with people who knew "our fall and predicament" was all down to him, The Stubborn Spaniard who didn't get the English league and refused to change.
I even seen idiots joining in with "sacked in the morning" chants coming from opposing fans and thinking it was funny.

Well, I hold these people as guilty as H&G for the state we find ourselves in.

Make no mistake, these people created the atmoshpere that emboldened Cecil and gave him the platform to sack Rafa "By mutual consent" while Rafa was on holiday. They are every bit as guilty as the media that gave Broughton the excuse.

The worst of them all, were the ones who came on here, and the likes of Talk Shite, pontificating why Hodgson should be given a chance. His "great season" with Fulham was proof enough that the Fat Spanish Waiter had to go and Uncle Roy should be given his chance at a big club.

And by this time, no matter what anyone did or said to warn them, they not only ploughed on regardless, they ploughed on with glee, calling anyone who disagreed with them Raffatollahs and idiots. Well, as we all now know, to our cost, they got their way.

When it eventually happened and there was Roy at his un-vieling being spoken for by Martin, I can't explain how angry and saddened I was. But after having me kick off on a few of the idiots that helped it, if not forced it, to happen , I done what I thought was right...
I backed the new manager of Liverpool Football Club.

It was what I was taught. I knew it was a step down, but I believed it was what I should do. I knew it was a mistake, but I hoped for the best. And I backed Roy because I thought that was the right thing to do.

I watched the shite pre-season, but I said he's our manager, we respect our own. He needs and deserves the same backing and loyalty that we've given to all our previous managers.

I even argued that with people who's opinions I respected. When they lamanted trading in a European Cup winning manager for a fella who'd never won anything but media acclaim, I argued with them that he was ours and so he should be given respect and time.

Even as the results and performances went bad from worse, I tried to tell people they needed to have a little patientce. Inside I was seething more than when we sacked Rafa and brought Roy in, but I did what I thought was right, and backed him in the hope he'd turn it round.

Then they started. I knew they would, but fuck me, they was quick...
The exact same people that screamed Rafa out, Roy in, were the quickest to turn on Roy.

That was no surprise. And I wasn't surprised when meself and other "Rafatollah's" ended up bollacking them and defending their man Roy against them.

And I'm still glad I done that. I can look meself in the eye for defending him - even though I knew it was wrong, and even though I felt like spewing up everytime I looked at Roy in our club gear on the touch line or spouting shite to the media.

I'll get pulled for all that. So what. I don't give a toss. And I'm not trying to make meself out to be some sort of uber supporter or even a decent fella. I can be a right twat, but I was ingrained in the old Liverpool Way. Throwing that away doesn't come easy. And funny enough, in a way that's why I can't stand Roy.

More than the bad results, the bad performances, the baffling/embarrasing statements, the woeful treatment of some players while kissing the arse off others, I hate Roy for making me turn against the last little bit of our tradition...
Not only can I not back him, I have to call for his head. I don't like doing that. It goes against everything, but he gives me no choice.

Most people will laugh at that nowadays. I don't care. I don't want to be part of modern football or it's ways. I want to back our manager, no matter how bad we are on the pitch. I want to stick a finger up to everyone out there and fight for our own. I'm getting on. I don't want to watch X-Factor, when I can turn on The Clash. I hate this ridiculous throw away society of instant gratification and no substance. But this old bastard is not one of ours...
He has to go, and go sharpish before he causes anymore damage.
But, and I truly mean this, I will always hate the people who got him the job, especially "our own Supporters," far more than I will hate Hodgson for taking it.

You should all hang your heads in shame. And I hope you've learnt your lesson. But sadly, I can see the same old guard defending the next fella to take the job as soon as the team loses it's first toss up under his tenure.

Modern football, modern supporters... you can shove it up your jacksie.   
Excellent post  :)
empireofthekop Empire of the Kop   
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Offline OohCampione

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #420 on: November 4, 2010, 01:16:50 pm »
It's a nice place to be this thread. Very decent posts from very decent members (oh-er missus!), whether they share my view or not, I enjoy reading them all - even the one's that are quoted again . . . and again . . . and again! :P
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Offline fredfrop

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #421 on: November 5, 2010, 02:58:43 pm »
This from one of the newer rawkites, but Johnny is the guy who told us how screwed Hicks was with his last investment vehicle and how he couldn't use the money from it to bail himself out.

Fans' Concerns
Well that was the worry in Boston, too...  But not in the way that most think.

The worry in Boston when Henry/NESV took over was not the Youth Set-up.  The worry from the fans' point of view (and it's going to be no different @ Liverpool), was & will be two-fold:
  • How they set it up the organizational structure, which flew in the face of traditional establishment
  • Making hard decisions on historically key LFC players
If Henry & NESV continue to stick to the Red Sox plan, which they have here @Liverpool so far to a T... These guys are going to spend boatloads of cash on both the big name players, but also on the youth players, too. Big money..

That said, they aren't going to shell out £25M on guys like David Luiz (let alone anyone else on that list of players that above), when they can get a comparable young great CB (or another position) at another club for much less (this is where the Moneyball-approach comes in).

Anyway, as I see it, WE THE FANS are going to have to change our tune.  We are going to have to realize that in the 21 years since we last won the league that the business of this sport and what it takes to win week-in and week-out has changed dramatically in just about every way off the pitch and that new approaches are necessary.

It's having to realize that one guy doing everything (i.e. Shanks) is the growing exception and not the rule.  It's having to realize that with a global game and global players, that having a massively over-priced under-achieving English player(s) on the team simply isn't acceptable if you are going to stick to a winning formula.  Stuff like that...


The DoF Role only works if the ENTIRE rest of the organization buys into it
I have been reading people trying to size up Comolli's past accomplishment/signings/etc...  I think that's fair.  But IMO most are completely missing the point.  The DoF Role ONLY WORKS if the rest of the organization is set-up to support it.  Just because the a club brings in a DoF does not mean that the rest of the organization is going to work with it.  Take Spain & Italy for instance.  A lot of those teams have DoFs but in no way shape or form are the organizations set-up to support it.  In Spain most of the DoFs are non-futbol guys trying to make the decisions (i.e. Florentino Pérez and his cronies @ Madrid). Take even the UK... Guys like Avram Grant @Chelsea or Dalglish @Blackburn & Celtic may have held the title of DoF, but the power was still elsewhere (with the owners or managers).  Even look @ Inter Milan.  They have a DoF and a strong-willed manager, but @ the end of the day the owner makes all of the decisions.

So that said, I think it's hard to look back on his time @ Spurs and try to make a correlation with how he did here.  When he was @ Spurs the organization wasn't set-up the way that NESV are setting it up here.


For Everyone out there who is having a hard time accepting the role of a DoF @ Liverpool
To those people, I'd ask what their reasoning is...  Is it simply because that's not the way things have always been done historically in 20th century futbol when Shanks was running the show or Clough & Taylor were running wild all over Europe...?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but guess what...  Futbol is big business anymore.  Despite these clubs only currently bringing in the revenues of a single big Asda store, this sport is growing massively.

Say Sayonara to the days when you could take a family of 4 to the match. And let's have a BIG HEARTY STUDIO AUDIENCE WELCOME to the 21st CENTURY....  (applause sign).


Guess what England (and the rest of Europe)...  Big Media already put the squeeze on sports fans in the biggest media market in the world (the US) 20 years ago....  to the point where die hard season-ticket   holders  have been pushed out to corporates...  If we wanted to go we could still afford the season tickets, but dropping the additional £250 per match for a family of three (not counting tickets) starts to take a beating on the old wallet...


Do people still actually believe that a simple futbol manager (and asst. manager) armed with nothing more than a futboling mind, street smarts, and a high-school diploma has the following skill-set?:
  • Tactics
  • Evaluate current players
  • Scout opposition
  • Scout players globally
  • Run an Academy
  • Run a Clubhouse of Massively paid 25 year-old first teamers
  • Run a Clubhouse of Massively paid 20 year-old reserves
  • Handle Agents who are armed with International Law degrees
  • Have a deep understanding of the movement and trading of a complex International Transfer Market
  • Have an understanding of global bond, currency & interest-rate markets
  • Have the ability to actually trade players well
  • Understand Currency issues
  • Understand complex Tax issues
  • Understand the business of Image rights laws
  • Have the ability to understand Wage development and direction
  • Have Negotiation expertise
  • Have Psychological expertise
  • .
  • .
  • .
  • Gimme a break...


It is asking WAY TOO MUCH OF MANAGERS today to remotely believe that they have those attributes let alone do any of them well.  Name me any manager in the Prem (sans SAF or Wegner) who do...  I'd be willing to bet that you could go down that entire top league in the world (The Premiership) list and not name one manager who excels at even 3 of those attributes...  FACT.

There are always the exception in all of global futbol... Wegner and Mourinho who ace a lot of those.  But even guys like SAF, can't manage 25% of those things on their own and they rely on futbol executives to make the final decision.


If we are against change and just want simple things, my advice is follow another sport.  Because futbol over the next 10 years is going to go through a big change from the dollars involved to the ticket prices to the set-up of the organizations.


I trade for a living and look at the fundamentals of all sorts of businesses every single day, and I can tell you that there are HUGE areas where the tradional business of futbol needs to improve because it is being exploited by insiders (Agents, Players, Owners, Media, etc...) all to the expense of the general fan.  That is not to say that things are going to get cheaper, but rather that there is MUCHO room for things to be run more efficiently.

One way for things to be run more efficiently is for a proper executive organization.  For the most part the current set-ups don't cut it.  To think that your club is being run effectively with your manager doing everything is not modern-day reality (let alone the future of futbol/sports).

It's not to say that the ways of Shankly and Clough are the way of the dinosaur...  Far from it.  Their principles were ahead of their time and have a FIRM place in good futbol going forward ; HOWEVER, the way that they had a hand in everything is for the most part a way of the past.


IMO the executive set-up for Liverpool is going to look like this (stealing from NESV's Red Sox set-up):
  • Henry:  involved in all big Club decisions including stuff with the big stars (don't think for an instant that this guy is hands-off)
  • CEO:  reports to Henry & Board ; a sports-business guy ; sounding board for both Henry and the DoF  ;  also knows stadium building and   finance like the back of his hand  ;  this is a Keith Edelman-type of guy ; not a 7am-7pm job, but rather hard middleman & corporate negotiation work when necessary
  • COO:  reports to CEO  ;  club operations guy (sales, tickets, project management, etc...)
  • Comolli as the DoF:  runs the show  ;  reports to CEO, but has ultimate vote on transfers/youth/scouts/contracts ; NOT involved with  ANYTHING on the pitch
  • 2 Asst. DoFs: #s crunchers who sit in on all DoF meetings
  • Academy Coaches:  report to DoF
  • Youth Scouts:  report to DoF
  • Scouts:  report to DoF
  • And finally... The Manager:  tactics/handles players/tells the DoF what he needs and which players he likes / DOES NOT have final say on ANYTHING off the pitch (not transfers, not contracts, nada...!)
That's the organizational structure, and it takes complete buy-in from everyone to make it work.  The other thing that it takes to make work is complete communication.  No silos of information.  No silos of power.


Anyway, I welcome all this and look forward to a day where we kick tail again not only on the pitch, but also when it comes to our operations (stadium building, contracts, scouting, youth academy, corporate sponsorship, charity & community work, community redevelopment, etc...)
* * * * *

Offline Red_Isle_Chap

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #422 on: November 7, 2010, 03:14:29 am »
Class from Stussy this:

"A moral point of view" is an interesting phrase to use.

At a certain point, you can't argue with feeling and emotion.

Morally, people feel Rafa was discarded prematurely and improperly and without the diligence that has been the case in most of our previous change of leadership since Shankly.

Morally, people feel that Purslow did not have a mandate to do what he did.

Morally, people felt that Liverpool FC should only ever change their manager if they can secure the services of either an equal or better manager.

Morally, people feel that Rafa had done enough over his tenure to at least deserve another season to rectify his mistakes, and to see if he could accomodate himself into any new system when we get new owners.

Morally, the man who scouted and signed the likes of Torres, Reina and Mascherano, and took us from the pigsty of European competition to becoming a swaggering name again, winning one and reaching another final, to such a degree that under him we became the number one rated team in Europe, winning in the greatest citadels of the game like the Nou Camp, Bernebau and San Siro, so much so that we sent a chill down the spine of any club that drew us, morally speaking, Rafa should his capabilities under the command of a terrible set of ownership and working conditions, suggesting he would be able to at least equal that under a stable situation that helped rather than hindered him, and one terrible season did not singlehandedly wipe out that.


Morally, people felt that at a vulnerable moment in our life, when we were facing such severe pressures externally and internally, that continuity and stability was the most important thing.

Morally, we had a manager utterly in tune with our way of thinking, and the culture of our club and city, to an almost uncanny degree, something evident in his donations to the HJC and Rhys Jones memorial charity and in a million other different ways.

Morally, people felt that every manager must be judged by how they perform relative to a number of factors and the extreme stress in the ground reality of our club over the last few years made Rafa stand in good moral stead.

Morally, Rafa would be subject to review of his fitness for office at the end of another season. Either if he could work under the new owners under their rules, or if he failed to advance us, morally Rafa would have to face up to it.

But morallly, for all those reasons, rooted in a rational approach, there was something especially grubby and callous about the way Rafa was done away with.

So morally, and emotionally, and in their instinct, they feel an assassination took place.

Quite apart from his comparative inferiority as a manager, Roy's conduct has made things worse. The passivity of our play at the beginning of the season exacerbated this. His press conferences, demeanour, and mentality grates. Morally and stylistically.

Having said that, I believe we can still get fourth place and secure Champions League. Roy is going to have to pull his finger out to achieve this. And we have to move on and draw a line under this.

At the end of the day, as much as I disagree with all those who wanted Rafa out, I want to be singing songs of victory with them as my Red comrade, rather than arguing about the morality and efficacy of what took place in the summer.

For the greater good, I want us all to move on, and dream and believe again.




And when you find yourself along the untrodden path
Remember me with a smile, a drink, a gesture or a laugh
And a toast for the man who loves every hour of every day
And a feast for the friends and faces met along way
Gratitude

Offline proudred

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #423 on: November 7, 2010, 09:01:05 am »
Carra .. haha .. the back stabbing so and so ... the prospects of him getting a taste of his own medicine will frighten him away

I could imagine it in the dressing room today's tactics are hoofing and more hoofing.I expect hoofing for the whole 90 minutes and if i see anyone playing the ball on the ground he will subbed asap.HOOOOF!!

Offline OohCampione

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #424 on: November 7, 2010, 09:30:43 am »
I could imagine it in the dressing room today's tactics are hoofing and more hoofing.I expect hoofing for the whole 90 minutes and if i see anyone playing the ball on the ground he will subbed asap.HOOOOF!!

You may have missed the point of this thread.
Quote from: Peter Griffin, Yesterday
"You'd better watch who you're calling a child, Lois. Because if I'm a child, you know what that makes you? A Pedophile. And I'll be damned if I'm gonna be lectured by a pervert."

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #425 on: November 29, 2010, 10:57:01 pm »

how? would be the question.

i've said before my overwhelming frustration is that i want perfect knowledge for the people making decisions.  the disatisfaction with hodgson is complicated, its on a number of levels, for most its on every level. but how could that feeling be articulated within the ground.. all you have is soundbites, 'hodgson out'? a lot of people have said they dont want to hear it, and i dont either. how do you avoid the false depiction of as the media would have it, greed.. or impatience and short term-ism when we all know they were the same people who would preach the opposite just months ago?


these are just my thoughts

its like the bloody truman show listening to the media in this country. we lost a man who knew it was all bollocks, with the vision to lead us and they tried everything to stop it. forest fire ahead.. nuclear fallout... anything. and for too many people it worked. those people let the corporation hire roy hodgson. too many people are looking for compromise, lets be clear it is compromise with the media and nothing else. there is an absolute right or wrong here, rafael benitez should not have gone he should still be here, he was the right man for liverpool, he overachieved, with the right backing anything was possible. why compromise? he was removed by a money man, under a corrupt regime, why must we compromise with the fallout from that. why should we not push for a full restoration of what was lost, its glaringly obvious. ive heard it said -'i saw through the media bias, rafa was a great manager he just wasnt my style, i wanted a return to pass and move.. he was too negative etc etc' and im sorry i just dont buy it, i see it as a glaring missinterpretation of the facts and i dont buy that those sentiments are independent from the media whatsover. i could launch into an exhaustive tirade about this but its not my main point. 

the whole thing, it infuriated me, i wanted to reach everyone.. sit down every dissenting voice and talk, for as long as it took.. set up power point presentations, i wanted to climb inside the phone and destroy the 5 live phone in studio, take alan green to task on every single arrogant ignorant word of his voice over the course of 4 years, i wanted sabotage sky sports news coverage and deliver an hour long monologue entitled ‘it takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile – a Rafa Benitez tribute’ in its place. In some ways though i loved the divergence of opinion over Rafa, quite simply because it told you instantly who was clued up and who wasn’t, who you wanted to stand with. In a flash ‘don’t get me wrong tactically he’s brilliant but…’ and we’re away. 

now i keep hearing, 'forwards not back', 'the benitez era is our past', 'UNITE THE FANBASE'. i say, if you would have me unite with the people that agitated for rafael benitez to be removed, a man who understood us, represented us, was dedicated and passionate about taking us forward.. i say divide the fanbase. because those people didnt get it, they didnt understand and they didnt want to. i wont stand with them. because i know they would do it all over again in the future. 

so my point is this: i dont think il see it but for me, a soundbite, whats the one thing that would lift the anger, the disillusionment, the sense of hopelesness of this whole disasterous chapter in our history? to hear 42 000 people sing for rafa benitez one more time. it tells of loss and hope at the same time, it shows class, and it'd tell anyone who would listen when patience was really needed.

whatever happens then, its been said and i for one would feel a huge weight lifted. but if he could return if it could happen who cares of the backlash, lets go to war with whatever ignorance and the media have to offer, i for one would take great pleasure in proving them wrong. agitators OUT, lets build around that man and let him finish what he started.



What a post!
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline HFD

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #426 on: November 29, 2010, 11:23:53 pm »
What a post!
Couldn't agree more. Thanks for pointing out this gem of a post.

Offline El Campeador

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #427 on: November 29, 2010, 11:56:56 pm »
Fantastic post there Paisley84. Sums up my frustrations perfectly.

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #428 on: November 30, 2010, 08:38:34 am »
News From Nowhere, November 2020

To step inside New Anfield is to realise just how well NESV – owners of Liverpool FC for ten years now – have been able to reconcile the two great opposing forces in association football: the relentless drive to the future, the tenacious hold of the past. No club in world football honours its own history more than Liverpool, as envious away fans queue up to testify. The past looms like an Alp in the collective imagination of the supporters – the cups, the legends, the triumphs and disasters. Yet, in the last ten years, no club has possessed a sharper cutting-edge when it comes to innovation – both on the field and off it.  “The past looks after itself because millions of supporters tend its memory” says John W Henry. “The future, we plan for every day”.

This is true from the Boot Room, where manager Xabi Alonso masterminded last year’s 24th league title and the club’s second successive European Cup victory, to the board room where Henry and his team have absolutely grasped what Liverpool supporters told them on day one – ‘this is our club’ - and turned what might have been a deadweight idea into an astounding commercial advantage. Uniquely to English football the board contains two supporters’ representatives with full voting rights. “We found we couldn’t keep saying how much we honour and trust the fans and not back this up by giving them some power”, says Henry. “Nor can you keep that level of wisdom about Liverpool FC permanently on the outside. It doesn’t make sense. We needed it at the very centre of the club where decisions are made about the stadium, about ticketing and pricing, about fan welfare. Anything else was inefficient and we don’t do inefficient”. 

And now the rest of English football looks on in envy. Liverpool has become the club where a seemingly endless procession of local talent finds its way into the first team and where the world’s greatest players long to join them. The youngsters are educated to play in the classical ‘Liverpool way’ from an early age; the established stars are chosen because they fit the mentality of the team and the culture of the club. “We don’t necessarily get the biggest names in world football. Often they cost too much anyway. But we do get the ones most appropriate for the aggressive, attack-based way we play”, says Alonso. “Footballers want to play in successful teams, for sure. But they also want to play in teams which value possession and put the accent on skill. They’re no different from other practising artists. They love to push their talents and to express themselves. We encourage that at Anfield. We also value long-term thinking which intelligent players always appreciate. A few high-profile stars like being gypsies, constantly on the move. But increasingly we have found that the best players in the world want to be one or two-club men – like Steven Gerrard or Paulo Maldini or Ian Callaghan”.

It’s not just the trophies which attract players to Liverpool of course. It’s the whole Liverpool FC experience. Walking past the beautiful memorials to Hillsborough and Heysel to the imposing entrance of the New Anfield grandstand, the visitor is already primed for an experience beyond the run-of-the-mill. There’s no talk of ‘brands’ here, or ‘franchises’. New Anfield is New Anfield, not the Barcap Soccerdome as Old Trafford became two years ago, or The Tesco Soccerama-Experience as Evertonians must now call their home-ground on the outskirts of  Ormskirk. Even the famous red Liverpool shirt – which carries the name of ‘Medecines Sans Frontiers’ – is testament to the enduring class of the club. True enough, the club has not been shy in developing a commercial empire in the Far East and – more surprisingly – North America, but the culture of capitalism is refreshingly absent from the New Anfield stadium itself. The place is a temple to football. Nothing else. A cynic might say that this, itself, is a ‘brand’ and a ‘mission statement’. Henry says “Let them. We know what we’ve built in Stanley Park, and it’s unique”.

It certainly is. As you walk under the venerable ‘This is Anfield’ sign – removed from the old ground when the wrecking crews came in and given pride of place in the players’ tunnel for the opening of the new arena in August 2014 – you emerge into the most famous football stadium in the world. On the left and in front of you the vast double-deckers rear up and fill the sky. No giant tv screens exist inside New Anfield  – the supporters’ reps on the board put the kibosh on that. “We felt that it encouraged people to gawp at replays of a near-miss just at the moment when supporters normally upped the volume and drove the team on to make amends”, says one of them, Fat Scouser. John Henry listened, as he did over the 39th game which was dropped like a hot tatty.

And on the right, as you emerge from the tunnel, is the mighty sweep of the new single–tier Spion Kop with its astonishing acoustics and famously cheap seats and unreserved sections. Asked why it contains 29,000 seats Henry says “We wanted to beat the old record, but not smash it”. And then the grandstand itself, a thrilling combination of high-tec and traditional – an immediate design classic on its unveiling, gesturing back to the old Archibald Leith stand that once graced Anfield between the wars and up until the 1960s. “We hated the idea of building an identikit stadium with no individual personality” says Henry. “British football stadiums were always different to the rest of the world, and we made sure to incorporate some of that character into New Anfield. From day one, this place seemed like home”. “And we still haven’t lost here” adds Alonso.

Naturally the place is full every other week. But why wouldn’t it be? The quality of football Liverpool have been serving up for the past 8 years has been out of this world. “Every player is capable of beating a man” says club captain Pepe Reina -poised this season to match Phil Neal as the club’s most-ever decorated player. “The emphasis is on attacking from the back, speed, collective endeavour, helping each other out, no exceptions. Socialism if you like. Maybe we over-relied on effort and not enough skill when I first came to Liverpool. Now a player has to have both or they aren’t a Liverpool player”. The youth teams, the reserves all play according to the devastating formula. “The average size of the team has probably gone down a bit”, admits Reina, “but we learned that size does not necessarily equal power. It affected the way we chose and developed kids and it had a knock-on effect at first team level. We’ve corrected that. It was a marvellous advantage to have that knowledge first”. Dani Pacheco, now in his 13th season at Liverpool, was a pioneer. “People said I was too small for the Premier League”, he remembers, “and they couldn’t believe it when I knocked Dirk Kuyt out of the team”. “Looking back on it now that was the turning point” acknowledges Reina. “It helped that he scored a hattrick against the Mancs I suppose”.

As the club prepares to open its doors to the city for the 31st anniversary of the  Hillsborough disaster, the club and the fans have much to be happy about. “Justice has been done at last – a big thanks to Andy Burnham and the new Labour government for that - and this may be the last time we gather in such vast numbers for the commemoration”, says general manager Sir Kenny Dalglish. “But of course we shall never forget. That would be impossible”.

But what next for this great club? What else is there after this?  “One day I won’t be here, at least not as the coach and manager”, says Alonso reflectively. “But  it’s important the succession goes well and we continue to be at the forefront of innovation. The game is changing quickly. It always does and therefore we should be prepared”. His face betrays an uncharacteristic anguish. “Look at what happened to Man Utd once Ferguson went. They collapsed. Maybe that had something to do with the extraordinary events surrounding his dismissal, the arrest and the trial and what not. But the fact is their club hadn’t thought about what happened next, even though they’d had 20 years to prepare. Now they are playing Oldham on Saturday and we are preparing for the Barcelona game. That’s tough. ”


:wellin
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

Offline redtrev

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #429 on: November 30, 2010, 09:42:11 am »
This place is like a little beach shack on the indian ocean with nothing but the sound of the ways and liverpool playing live on a stream. Fucking hell lads hows this work? I want to say exactly whay some people are saying regarding some of the unbelievable posts in here; how they are pretty much the thoughts of alot of us put down in writing.

People read certain posts and automatically see that their thoughts are being wrote by someone else, then those individuals come on to state as much and then others like myself come on to say exactly what they have said, i.e how excellent the posts are. So.. AH fuck it i dont know what im getting at there but Fats, E2K and paisley84 take a bow serious fucking posts.

Lads just a quick query for you all. I ve been trying to see how the great man could return here but i cant see how? any of you got a solution to this? Id Love to hear it.

Offline BazC

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #430 on: November 30, 2010, 10:14:28 am »
Yorky, that was fantastic. Made me laugh right at the end there- very good.

“This place will become a bastion of invincibility and you are very lucky young man to be here. They will all come here and be beaten son”

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #431 on: November 30, 2010, 10:16:00 am »
Yorky, that was fantastic. Made me laugh right at the end there- very good.



Ditto, good read.

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #432 on: November 30, 2010, 10:17:17 am »
What a post!

Agree - especially this bit;
now i keep hearing, 'forwards not back', 'the benitez era is our past', 'UNITE THE FANBASE'. i say, if you would have me unite with the people that agitated for rafael benitez to be removed, a man who understood us, represented us, was dedicated and passionate about taking us forward.. i say divide the fanbase. because those people didnt get it, they didnt understand and they didnt want to. i wont stand with them. because i know they would do it all over again in the future. 


How very true.

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #433 on: November 30, 2010, 10:21:47 am »
You´re innocent when you dream...
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Marko B

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #434 on: November 30, 2010, 11:05:15 am »
Magnificent Paisley84, absolutely magnificent. Bravo.
Quote from: Rafa Benitez
“I was not fighting for the power. I didn’t need more power. I was fighting for the future of the club.”

Offline Red_Isle_Chap

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #435 on: December 4, 2010, 02:12:07 am »
I don't even know if I should be putting a post from the General sports section in here, but by fuck it deserves to be in here. Excellent stuff!

Can't be bothered reading this full thread after the first page, but the absolute fucking quilts (and I don't see any reason to show restraint there) who aren't interested in the FA Cup and use it as a yardstick of "how far we've fallen" obviously didn't care when little Luis lobbed Petr Cech in 2006, when Peter Crouch smashed that header past Van Der Saar that same year, when Michael Owen nicked his second past David Seaman with his weaker foot in 2001 and for Christ's sake, when Gerrard scored one of the best goals I've ever seen a Liverpool player score against West Ham in Cardiff. Nope, obviously, it's a mickey mouse cup, polite applause was all that is applicable to it then I'd imagine. You fucking liars. If you didn't go ballistic when the ball flew past Shaka Hislop and nestled in the bottom corner from about two miles away (Gerrard was more or less in Swansea when he hit that ball) because it's "not as important as the 'PL' or 'CL' are to us" then I'm stunned.

Try telling the FA Cup doesn't matter to Havant & Waterlooville. To FC United of Manchester for that matter. To Leeds United last year in the way they dispatched the Mancs and nearly did for Tottenham as well. To Portsmouth fans. To Man United fans for goodnesssakes (it's one thing they have won more of than us). When we turn up at their place with about 10,000 plus hopefully tell anyone there that it doesn't matter.

And yes, Sky have "killed" the magic of the cup. If they don't have the rights to something it is belittled and not important. A trophy is a trophy, and considering 45 years ago people joked that "the Liverbirds will fly away before Liverpool win the FA Cup!", and the joy that 2-1 victory over Leeds brought, this is a big one.
And when you find yourself along the untrodden path
Remember me with a smile, a drink, a gesture or a laugh
And a toast for the man who loves every hour of every day
And a feast for the friends and faces met along way
Gratitude

Offline SMD

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #436 on: December 5, 2010, 08:38:06 pm »
Because we all need cheering up:

Thought it was good and Mr Alex Ferguson would get such a seeing to.

Click to see the context and try and figure it out. Then piss yourself even harder.
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Offline Red_Isle_Chap

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #437 on: December 13, 2010, 09:41:36 pm »
2 of the best posts i've read in ages, Blerts is a direct reply to Vulmea's

The idea of Boas, Klopp, Tuchel. Valverde, Emery, Laudrup, Blanc, Saglam. Flores – all the bright young continental things is appealing – they have little to no baggage, they have exciting attacking philosophies – they are all ‘potential’ which is difficult to argue with and they all bring a European attitude and technical approach which is far ahead of the current English game – but it doesn’t feel right to me - rather than plucking specific talent out from their countries and clubs shouldn’t we be looking for our own equivalents?

Half the problem is we don’t have this type of manager coming through our reserves and youth set ups – a number of these lads have trained at youth level on the continent honed their basic motivation and tactical skills whilst learning the basic mechanics of football – the problem is they are using the 21st century manual and we are still in the 20th  - in Klopps case he seems to be writing his own, whilst Boas has improved on the one he was given by Mourinho -  then they’ve been unleashed on the first team and had the drive and ambition to make their teams follow.

The other half of the problem is what affinity do these guys have with LFC – for Shanks it was a home coming – a return to the socialist roots he was grounded in – he was a part of the very fabric of the city – but these clever young men – where is the connection?

You could argue that Benitez had no ties that he was their equivalent 6 years ago – aside from the fact he was far more successful than any of them to date,  he was also somebody who engaged with the people whether it be at Valencia or Liverpool – he was and remains a manager ‘of the people’ – do any of these guys carry a reputation for an association with their respective fans?

When we look at Coyle we see his success and an attractive style of football,  but he immerses himself in the club – he pays as much attention to building bonds with the community as he does organising his defence – he is a modern manager – it has caused issues because when you do that people feel betrayed when you up and leave – however he is the antithesis of Hodgson, who comes across as just another professional journeyman, Liverpool are just another line on his CV, have tracksuit will travel. But does Coyle only stand out because he has so little competition – is he a visionary and a bright young thing with new ideas like Klopp? Is he a modern manager using modern tactics and techniques like Boas ? Or is he just the only horse in town? He’s transformed poor footballing sides in Burnley and Bolton into playing attractive football. He’s been able to get the best from no hopers such as Elmander, revitalise Kevin Davies and build a team spirit. Clearly he is a god man manager and a clever man. Granted this is easier to do at underdogs than at European champions but its difficult to see what else he could have done with the opportunities he’s had  the question though is,  given a bigger canvas can he actually deliver something special – is he the real deal?

Is his football as sophisticated as Emery? No but he does not have the touch players that they have in Spain and the league is not suited to that style. He has not gone down the Allardyce ( Moyes, Mcleish, Pulis, etc etc) route which compromises quality for results (not yet anyway) but you get the impression he will be as practical as he needs to be. One concern though is Steve Coppell tried a similar style and was crushed in his second season always a problem when you have a thin squad but the issue is -  do Bolton play the attractive football based on fluid modern system or is it simply a gamble which eventually catches up with you.  Is Coyles motivational technique something which lasts a short time or is it enduring?

Other ‘british’ options are even more risky Lambert at Norwich has done little wrong but has he done anything to suggest he can move on a stage? Boothroyd would tick all the boxes in terms of youth and modern techniques only if his teams actually played football. The likes of Parkin, Cotterill, Adkins, Pearson, Rogers are seen as up and coming breed but is there anything in any of them which suggests they have the charisma and grit to run a top club successfully?

Markus Babbel relegated last season doing well this with a new club seems to cover both options but is just another name in a growing list of people who could do a job –

its alright suggesting names but  to know the next manager of Liverpool you’d have to meet them get under their skin and understand what made them tick are they a fit for us not just our they a good enough manager on paper

great post mate.

the issue I have over it being a gamble that eventually catches up with you is really one about the size of the club you try it at.

Trying it at Bolton or wherever, it will probably always catch up with you. Simple logistics say that you can only polish so many players so much. As good as  he's got Davies playing there is only so much you can get out of him. Every player is limited to only being able to be taken so far before they reach their plateau. This is relevant throughout the team/squad. Certain players (Elmander/Davies) are shining as they have been allowed to play better football. Others performances have risen because of this (and the coaching), but throughout the team certain players will reach a level that they cant improve on. This is what limits any further progression past a certain point. Not having the ability to replace these players stops any further progress, and your left wondering what might have been, and also was it all just a flash in the pan as it invariably goes stale. For the progression to thrive then investment is needed to inject talent to get more from the better players. its almost self fulfilling.

Its one of the things that Benitez suffered from IMO. He had the vision of what he wanted. he got a lot out of players. But being restricted to £6 - 10 million pound players (generally) never allowed improvements in areas that would allow areas where we already had quality to improve further. I wonder what we might have looked like now if we had got Alves/Simoa (a few years ago)/Villa and especially Silva who is fantastic at the moment. If only eh?

A higher quality of player to begin with, and with the backing of being able to target exactly who you want, when you want, IMO would see the likes of Coyle (and Coppel) thrive. To maybe actually build something. They seem to have more vision for the future than RH does. They have a hunger about them, and they seem to relish the challenge that they can make it work.

Would Coyle be good for Liverpool though? I dont know - I have a feeling we'll never find out though. People saying there is a dearth of managers if RH has to go are wrong. Sure your Mourinhos and big names that are banded about are taken up. But to tell the truth, theyre not the kind of manager I (personally) want in. I want someone with a new vision. No baggage. Someone who will come in, and impose a method with a genuine ending in sight whether it takes 2 or 5 years.

Someone who will make us happy.

Not Rafa unfortunately. But someone very like him.
And when you find yourself along the untrodden path
Remember me with a smile, a drink, a gesture or a laugh
And a toast for the man who loves every hour of every day
And a feast for the friends and faces met along way
Gratitude

Offline Red_Isle_Chap

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #438 on: December 13, 2010, 11:07:42 pm »
Been a good day, 3rd cracking post that i think should go in this thread as he's spot on.

The main reason I want him out is this fucking constant in-fighting between fans, which will happen regardless but the sooner we get a new man in charge, appointed by the new owners without the stigma of being appointed by the previous wankers, then the sooner we can talk about Liverpool FC, the football and not everything surrounding it.

Hodgson was on a hiding to nothing from the off. I was utterly underwhelmed by his appointment, but wanted to give him a chance with a lot of other people. Some didn't and wanted to give the man shite from all angles before the first pre-season game. As it turns out, being underwhelmed with a lot of others, even though a fair amount of us (abuse or no abuse) didn't really want him in charge in the first place, he's shown he's out of his depth here.

But so many arguments break out by comparing him to Rafa. So many arguments break out because he was appointed by the last regime. So much of the bickering, especially on here, stems from the reasons he was brought in, WHO brought him in, and who preceded him.

When we get a new man, appointed by new owners, one manager removed from someone people regard almost God like (Rafa), and the sooner we can concentrate on the football. I actually see people now suggesting Henry and Werner are no better than Hicks and Gillett because they havn't sacked Hodgson yet? (total bollocks).  ::)

Will that kind of shite ever end? Only when they get rid and appoint someone THEY want in charge and not stick by someone who was appointed by the previous regime.

Aside from his shit tactics and terrible away games, his shooting himself in the foot regularly, his inability to handle the pressure, and his lack of ability to change anything, I'd love to see the last remnants of Hicks and Gillett gone so the new owners and manager can be judged on THEIR terms, not on their association with regimes or people we detest.


And when you find yourself along the untrodden path
Remember me with a smile, a drink, a gesture or a laugh
And a toast for the man who loves every hour of every day
And a feast for the friends and faces met along way
Gratitude

Offline Passmaster Molby

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #439 on: December 18, 2010, 11:38:34 am »
Rafa getting dogs abuse from people that should know better. Rafa getting slagged off because 'he's coldhearted, selfish, doesn't care' and the rest. From those that were so blinkered, stupid, petty and sad that their one-eyed rage led them to believe anyone could do a better job and that he was a horrible person.

Then he donates all that money to the HJC. A very particular amount. Then he donates to Alder Heys. Then he donates to other causes close to his families hearts. Then he keeps the house he has over here. Then he says how much he loves the place and loves the club even though he was stabbed in the back. Admits he's made mistakes. Says he would love to come back one day. Gives us the Champions League and gets us to another final. Batters Real Madrid and Manchester United 4-1. Beats Barcelona on their own patch. Makes us feared throughout Europe. Gives us an FA Cup. Takes us to finals. Makes us believe. Makes us Dream. Makes us proud. Makes us spoilt with it all. Has us playing, controlling pressing football all over the pitch. Breaks scoring and points records and yet is labelled 'boring' by the seething, jealous press. The press hate him. The press really, really hate him. As a Liverpool fan - anyone that is hated by the lying Murdoch-led, Sun-oriented, money-spinning, self-serving, Xenophobic/Borderline Racist, Dumbed-Down, lying, crying press machine is a friend of mine. Gets the Club. Gets the City. Gets the Fans. Gets the Tradition. Gets the honour. Is one of us.


Roy: Slags the club, the fans, the City off. Blames everyone but himself. Peddles whopping media lies on a pretty much daily basis. Slags his own players off more often than not. Has a go at the squad which is 'too big', 'too small', 'not his' and then complains about the quality - even though the two worst players in that squad have been signed by him. Has a go at Rafa then backs down when Rafa responds. Tries to wheedle his way around the fans by lying about Rafa's relationship with Kenny - which Kenny and his son quietly refute. Chummies up with all his Southern press mates. Then complains that he is hard done to. Displays all the usual traits of LMA members in this country. Bigs himself up on every opportunity. Tells people how wonderful he is. But it's all the previous managers fault, it's the players fault, it's the clubs fault, it's the fault of not enough money, it's always someone else that is to blame. Bigs up Jose Mourinho to Liverpool fans. Bigs up Alex Ferguson to Liverpool fans. Worries that taking the Liverpool job will upset his LMA Mates. Doesn't get the Club. Doesn't get the City. Doesn't get the Fans. Doesn't get the Tradition. Doesn't get the honour. Is NOT one of us.

Andy with an absolute pearler from the differences between Rafa and Roy thread.