Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[PoetryInMotion]

The main difference between us and City is the fact that De Bruyne and Silva give much more penetration through the middle of the pitch that Henderson and Wijnaldum don't provide. This makes us rely on our full backs for creativity too much which is an issue mainly because crossing just isn't as an effective big chance creator as through balls are. City are averaging a goal a game more than us basically because KDB is a big chance creating freak.

Keita is a unique player for us in the way that I don't think we lose much defensively by having him in the side - he is more than comfortable playing as a 6 in the past and his defensive stats are excellent - but gives us so much more on the ball with his ability to both play a through ball and be able beat a man off the dribble. We need to get him into the side as much as possible, in my opinion. He's just a flat out better all-round footballer than our other options there.

Why should Man City be the blueprint for our game? Did Klopp tell any of us that he's copying Guardiola? There are clear differences in how both managers excel, they're tactically different and it shows in their teams even though there are some common elements as well.

I can flip the same and call Man City's full-backs as not good/creative enough as our full-backs are, hence they have to depend on their midfield for creativity, thereby having attacking midfielders. Something's got to give. If we want Trent and Robbo flying, we need protection from midfield. De Bruyne and Silva won't work in our system. Now, may Naby will work as he is a rounded player, but Klopp has always eased players in, not rushed them back. And, our current midfield has been a major part of two CL Final runs, 1 win and a 97 point season, and we're still here picking flaws out of them that makes no sense whatsoever. Even if Klopp eventually puts in more attack minded midfielder (I'm sure he won't play two of them in the same side regularly, he may do with 1), it bears no judgment on our current 1st choice midfield. They're proven, regardless of whatever gets said or done.

[Jookie]

The notion that there would be some drop-off in our midfield with Naby and Ox is fanciful.

It was the case last season but this season our back 4 is much more exposed , we can't keep a clean sheet and as we've seen with the first goal yesterday teams do run through us at times and we're not as tough to play to against as we'd like to think (see Salzburg). Naby is perfectly capable of matching what Gini and Hendo do without the ball if not even more and even if it's more debatable with Ox two years ago he had his place cemented in our midfield thus displaying he's got the know how to meet Klopp's requirements.

We all have players we rate more or less but even if you believe current midfield options are better we are talking about marginal differences at best.

I don't view Keita or AOC as anywhere near as attacking as Silva and De Bruyne. They are arguably a more attacking threat than Wijnaldum and Henderson. But Keita and AOC wouldn't get near our midfield if they couldn't do the more disciplined stuff.

Fabinho at No.6 is a cert. All the other midfielders I'm relatively non-plussed who gets picked. I'm happy with all of them. Not really too bothered who gets picked though I think a fully fit AOC (think AOC in Jan to Mar 2018) would be getting a lot more games. Think his power and the way he drives with the ball would add something different.. Wijnaldum, Henderson Milner and Keita are all pretty similar level to me. All bring their own strengths and weaknesses.

Based on what I've seen for Liverpool, if every midfielder was fit and firing I'd go for Fabinho, AOC and Wijnaldum. Though I can understand why people may want Henderson and Keita in there. At the moment I probably wouldn't trust Keita and AOC to play against a top side together in midfield. That might come with time though.

[PoetryInMotion]

In terms of performance levels, yes, we're still a step off City. They are crushing it on the attacking end this season - 3.2 xG per game. Not sure that's sustainable actually. The only other over 3 xG per game season there's been was the peak Messi/Suarez/Neymar season at Barca. But that's the level we're talking about anyway. Bridging that gap offensively is pretty much impossible with our current squad but I think Keita elevates us a quite a bit on the attacking side without compromising anything the other way.

Summing up/Averaging xG is a bad way to analyze a season or a set of games. You can have 1 game with xG-xGA 5.*-0.* and another game with 2.3-2.1 and there are chances you lose the 2nd game. This is what happened with Man City against Watford (first game), and Wolves (second game) - approx xGs assumed based on how the games went.

Whereas you could have another team with lesser xG combined in both games, yet doing enough in both games in terms of xG for 6 points. That's why you should never sum up xGs over a season, it paints an incorrect picture. You need to assess each and every game with xG, find the points for every game, and then sum the points to compare with the real points.   

[Jookie]

De Bryune, I'll grant you has not a good defensive side to his game but Silva is as tenacious a tackler as anyone we have.

If you think the defensive aspects of our midfield play can be boiled down to being a tenacious tackler then I think you a missing a bit of what they do.

Silva wouldn't have the physicality to do what our midfielders are asked to do. To be honest you wouldn't want him to. It'd be a waste of a great attacking talent. Ditto with De Bruyne. You'd want the game dictated by and played through them. We don't ask our midfield to do this. Our midfield help facilitate other aspects of the team. That doesn't give them a free pass to not be an attacking threat but they aren't asked to be the creative hub of our team like City ask Silva (x2) and De Bruyne to do. That's why any comparison between our No.8's and theirs is ultimately flawed.

[joezydudek]

In terms of performance levels, yes, we're still a step off City. They are crushing it on the attacking end this season - 3.2 xG per game. Not sure that's sustainable actually. The only other over 3 xG per game season there's been was the peak Messi/Suarez/Neymar season at Barca. But that's the level we're talking about anyway. Bridging that gap offensively is pretty much impossible with our current squad but I think Keita elevates us a quite a bit on the attacking side without compromising anything the other way.

There's me thinking that us having six points more than Man City meant we were doing better than them, but now it turns out expected goals are more important. Fuck sake, what a disaster!

[jepovic]

Why should Man City be the blueprint for our game? Did Klopp tell any of us that he's copying Guardiola? There are clear differences in how both managers excel, they're tactically different and it shows in their teams even though there are some common elements as well.

I can flip the same and call Man City's full-backs as not good/creative enough as our full-backs are, hence they have to depend on their midfield for creativity, thereby having attacking midfielders. Something's got to give. If we want Trent and Robbo flying, we need protection from midfield. De Bruyne and Silva won't work in our system. Now, may Naby will work as he is a rounded player, but Klopp has always eased players in, not rushed them back. And, our current midfield has been a major part of two CL Final runs, 1 win and a 97 point season, and we're still here picking flaws out of them that makes no sense whatsoever. Even if Klopp eventually puts in more attack minded midfielder (I'm sure he won't play two of them in the same side regularly, he may do with 1), it bears no judgment on our current 1st choice midfield. They're proven, regardless of whatever gets said or done.

I rather think it's the managers using their squads the best they can. It's possible to have both attacking full backs and skilled midfielders. Some players are just better than others. Klopp has managed to get two of the best full backs in the world, while Guardiolas midfield has been fantastic. I think de Bruyne would be brilliant in our team as well,although of course tactics would be adjusted. Keita and Ox obviously havr a lot to prove before they can be compared with de Bruyne, and I think Klopp will stick with Henderson and Gini.

[PoetryInMotion]

If you think the defensive aspects of our midfield play can be boiled down to being a tenacious tackler then I think you a missing a bit of what they do.

Silva wouldn't have the physicality to do what our midfielders are asked to do. To be honest you wouldn't want him to. It'd be a waste of a great attacking talent. Ditto with De Bruyne. You'd want the game dictated by and played through them. We don't ask our midfield to do this. Our midfield help facilitate other aspects of the team. That doesn't give them a free pass to not be an attacking threat but they aren't asked to be the creative hub of our team like City ask Silva (x2) and De Bruyne to do. That's why any comparison between our No.8's and theirs is ultimately flawed.

Agreed. It's the same as comparing their full-backs and ours and then asking them why their full-backs don't go as forward/cross as much as ours do.

Both sides are setup differently. We do not need to copy Man City, and Klopp has no interest in doing that based on his work so far. We need to ensure we win more points than Man City. That's the only thing that matters.

[PoetryInMotion]

I rather think it's the managers using their squads the best they can. It's possible to have both attacking full backs and skilled midfielders. Some players are just better than others. Klopp has managed to get two of the best full backs in the world, while Guardiolas midfield has been fantastic. I think de Bruyne would be brilliant in our team as well,although of course tactics would be adjusted. Keita and Ox obviously havr a lot to prove before they can be compared with de Bruyne, and I think Klopp will stick with Henderson and Gini.

We already have that. Or are you saying Fabinho, Hendo and Gini are not skilled?

What is your definition of 'skilled'? Is it restricted to playing exquisite through passes?

[Jookie]

I rather think it's the managers using their squads the best they can. It's possible to have both attacking full backs and skilled midfielders. Some players are just better than others. Klopp has managed to get two of the best full backs in the world, while Guardiolas midfield has been fantastic. I think de Bruyne would be brilliant in our team as well,although of course tactics would be adjusted. Keita and Ox obviously havr a lot to prove before they can be compared with de Bruyne, and I think Klopp will stick with Henderson and Gini.

Both managers have had 3 to 4 seasons to shape their squads. They have moulded the squads into how they want them. If we wanted a more attacking midfielder type ( a No.8/No.10 hybrid) then we'd have bought one by now. We've flirted with the idea - Coutinho in midfield on the odd occasion and maybe Fekir might have played there - but after 100's of games as manager Klopp is deciding to pick Wijnaldum and Henderson as his No.8's. That's by design rather than managing what he's got.

De Bruyne (or someone similar) would be an excellent player to have in our squad. He's arguably the best player in the league. But why would you want to change the tactical system and attacking emphasis of this current team? Or do you think De Bruyne could, and would, do the defensive leg work that we ask of Henderson/Wijnaldum/Milner/Keita/AOC? Having De Bruyne would potentially mean him operating in the positions of the pitch that Firmino and Mane take up on occasions. Is having a De Bruyne type player worth the potential risk of blunting the impact of Mane and Firmino?

I really don't get this fascination with City and trying to replicate what they are doing in midfield. It's comparing apples with oranges based on how both teams are set up.

[jepovic]

We already have that. Or are you saying Fabinho, Hendo and Gini are not skilled?

What is your definition of 'skilled'? Is it restricted to playing exquisite through passes?

Henderson and Gini are not very skilled for playing advanced midfielders in a top team, no.
Skill could be incisive passes, dribbling, shooting. Is it really that hard to see the difference?

Fabinho is another level though. Wouldn't trade him for anyone.

[Jookie]

I rather think it's the managers using their squads the best they can. It's possible to have both attacking full backs and skilled midfielders.

Which teams in current European football have had success playing a front 3 with 2 attacking midfielders and 2 full backs who are putting up 15-20 assists a season?

Had a think and historically I can only think of Barcelona in around 2015 when they had Alves and Alba at full back, Rakitic and Iniesta in midfield and a front 3 of Neymar, Suarez and Messi. Beyond that I'm struggling to think of any.

[Coolie High]

Defensively i don't see how replacing one of the three (not Fabinho) with Keita or Ox would bring us down a level, from a casual perspective we already this season don't look as good defensively, shape wise, as we were last season and the stats prove this as well, a midfield three of Keita Fabinho and Wijnaldum still looks pretty solid defensively to me?

[Coolie High]

You'd think so wouldn't you.

I've been at the stage with this management team for a long time now where I barely bother to look at the starting line-up on match day. We're too good no matter which team we put out.

We are at the stage United were during that 07/09 period, they could put Rafael and Oshea in centre mid and still win games, lucky we don't have to face anyone on the quality of that Barca midfield of that time either.

[Knight]

Both managers have had 3 to 4 seasons to shape their squads. They have moulded the squads into how they want them. If we wanted a more attacking midfielder type ( a No.8/No.10 hybrid) then we'd have bought one by now. We've flirted with the idea - Coutinho in midfield on the odd occasion and maybe Fekir might have played there - but after 100's of games as manager Klopp is deciding to pick Wijnaldum and Henderson as his No.8's. That's by design rather than managing what he's got.

Klopp has usually played a progressive 8 in our midfield. He has played Lallana, Milner and AOC as progressive 8s (or 'attacking midfield types', 'flirted' with buying Fekir and actually bought Shaq. This current preferred 3 is a move away from his normal 'design' because Henderson is, nominally, the progressive 8, but can't actually progress the ball.

Defensively i don't see how replacing one of the three (not Fabinho) with Keita or Ox would bring us down a level, from a casual perspective we already this season don't look as good defensively, shape wise, as we were last season and the stats prove this as well, a midfield three of Keita Fabinho and Wijnaldum still looks pretty solid defensively to me?

I think we improve defensively if we play Fabinho-Gini-Keita as it happens because all 3 will stay infield more, and make us more compact. When we lose the ball with Henderson wide right the centre of the pitch is vacated and we can be in trouble. Now, will it also make us less of an offensive force, because Arnold will have less backup? I suspect Gini just moves over to the right and protects better than Henderson is capable of doing.

[PoetryInMotion]

Henderson and Gini are not very skilled for playing advanced midfielders in a top team, no.
Skill could be incisive passes, dribbling, shooting. Is it really that hard to see the difference?

Fabinho is another level though. Wouldn't trade him for anyone.

So, your definition is restricted as I assumed.

Plus, you're confusing roles and positions. The role of our midfielders is to break up play, circulate the ball, set pressing traps, in that order and then only to create and score. Even if other players come in, the roles expected of them will not change. Max that will happen is one midfielder (Ox or Keita), will be given more freedom forward, but it will never be like City's midfield whoever Klopp has. Even if Klopp has Coutinho & De Bruyne now, do you think he will play a midfield three of Fabinho, De Bruyne and Coutinho? Will never happen. If you think that's possible, you haven't understood Klopp at all.

[Knight]

I don't think it's sustainable to have a midfield 3 for whom progressing the ball isn't in the role's job description. This is much less about assists and goals and much more about penetration, or the pass before the assist. Our 6, nominally the player who would be doing this least, was the guy playing passes into the box yesterday.

Oh and by sustainable, I don't think we continue to create enough and score enough to win enough (the title) with this midfield 3. What happened at OT will happen again, and unnecessarily.

[PoetryInMotion]

I don't think it's sustainable to have a midfield 3 for whom progressing the ball isn't in the role's job description. This is much less about assists and goals and much more about penetration, or the pass before the assist. Our 6, nominally the player who would be doing this least, was the guy playing passes into the box yesterday.

Oh and by sustainable, I don't think we continue to create enough and score enough to win enough (the title) with this midfield 3. What happened at OT will happen again, and unnecessarily.

Yep. We never amassed 97 points (lost title by 1 point) or won the CL with that midfield at all. Erased from history and revised successfully and 'unnecessarily'.

Btw, our midfielder who is not our No. 6 scored the equalizer yesterday.

[Phil M]

Is Fab-Hendo-Gini our most played midfield 3 since say the start of last season? Interested to see the selection stats for the different trios we've played in the league.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Skill is technique + decision-making.

So when we say our midfield (as is) isn't "skilled", then we're saying they either haven't got the technique, they don't make good decisions, or both.

[Jookie]

Klopp has usually played a progressive 8 in our midfield. He has played Lallana, Milner and AOC as progressive 8s (or 'attacking midfield types', 'flirted' with buying Fekir and actually bought Shaq. This current preferred 3 is a move away from his normal 'design' because Henderson is, nominally, the progressive 8, but can't actually progress the ball.

I agree that Klopp probably does want a midfielder who can offer more in an attacking sense. I don't think it would be a No.8/No.10 hybrid though. Think it'll be someone who is more box to box. Looking back I'm intrigued what the plan was Fekir, or what we would have done if Coutinho had stayed. Because for me we've been a better team with a functional midfield that has allowed other parts of our attacking game to flourish whilst maintaining a solid base for the team defensively. There doesn't seem a place for that type of midfielder in the team without changing things significantly.

That's why I don't think you can include Shaqiri as a midfield option. Shaqiri has never played in midfield in a 433 for us. He's virtually always played in a 4-2-3-1 with 2 holding mids. The odd time he's played in the front 3 in a 4-3-3.

I disagree about it being a move from the 'normal design'. Henderson, Wijnaldum and Fabinho have been our 1st choice midfield 3 for months now. That's because we are continually winning. Not despite of them but because they contribute to those wins. I think we'll move more towards seeing Keita and AOC involved more as the season progresses but at the moment the 'normal design' is Fabinho, Wijnaldum and Henderson.. I'm not sure both AOC and Keita would be trusted together in midfield in a big game yet though. Still think you'll always see 1 of Wijnaldum or Henderson play with Fabinho as the No.6.

By the way saying Henderson can't progress the ball does a disservice to the other points you raised. Post comes across very much like you just want Henderson out of the team. He hasn't played very well recently and in the long term we may well see AOC play more regularly on that RHS position. But let's not make things up just to suit an agenda.

[Knight]

Yep. We never amassed 97 points (lost title by 1 point) or won the CL with that midfield at all. Erased from history and revised successfully and 'unnecessarily'.

Btw, our midfielder who is not our No. 6 scored the equalizer yesterday.

97 points and a CL win does nothing to disprove my point. Nor does Henderson scoring. In fact, I was very explicitly talking less about assists and goals and more about penetration, getting the ball to our attacking players. Although if you want to use Henderson's end product as evidence that he's all we need as an 8 going forward we can certainly dig up his statistics in the 8 position...

The thing is, we didn't amass 97 points without a penetrative midfielder. We often played a midfield with penetrative players. Last season's midfield included Keita some of the time and the longer the season went the more he was trusted. It also included Milner who functions in that capacity in some ways. Shaquiri also had a small run. Obviously in the CL we'd run the risk of what happened in the '18 final happening again although we could easily win it by good knockout management but even in the CL in '18 we had AOC until the injury. My issue is with the relentless grind of 38 games and the need to get 100 points (I'm assuming that's what it'll require despite man City's poor start). To do that, we are going to need to find as many ways of creating and scoring as possible, and relying on magic from the front 3 and our fullbacks is an unnecessary risk.

You're right to point out that role is more significant than position. The issue is, one of the roles of our midfield isn't being fulfilled as well as it should be by a 3 of fabinho, henderson and gini.

Klopp spent a lot of money on keira and chamberlain, and he did it because we will need penetration from midfield more than henderson, fabinho and Gini give us. There's nothing wrong with pointing that out, and pointing out that historically Klopp has picked midfields which include penetrative players.

[Giono]

If you think the defensive aspects of our midfield play can be boiled down to being a tenacious tackler then I think you a missing a bit of what they do.

Silva wouldn't have the physicality to do what our midfielders are asked to do. To be honest you wouldn't want him to. It'd be a waste of a great attacking talent. Ditto with De Bruyne. You'd want the game dictated by and played through them. We don't ask our midfield to do this. Our midfield help facilitate other aspects of the team. That doesn't give them a free pass to not be an attacking threat but they aren't asked to be the creative hub of our team like City ask Silva (x2) and De Bruyne to do. That's why any comparison between our No.8's and theirs is ultimately flawed.

Agree. On the NBC feed I had of the match the commentator said something like , there's Wijnaldum doing what Wijnaldum does. He was saying this when Gini closed down one of their midfielders, then got the ball from him, controlled and protected it, then passed it cooly to a team-mate. You can't capture all that in a stat.

[jepovic]

So, your definition is restricted as I assumed.

Plus, you're confusing roles and positions. The role of our midfielders is to break up play, circulate the ball, set pressing traps, in that order and then only to create and score. Even if other players come in, the roles expected of them will not change. Max that will happen is one midfielder (Ox or Keita), will be given more freedom forward, but it will never be like City's midfield whoever Klopp has. Even if Klopp has Coutinho & De Bruyne now, do you think he will play a midfield three of Fabinho, De Bruyne and Coutinho? Will never happen. If you think that's possible, you haven't understood Klopp at all.

I don’t think it's their job description at all.
Fabinho creates much more chances than his colleagues, despite more defensive responsibilities. Ox and Keita create more when they play exactly the same roles.

I agree it will probably never be as attacking as Citys midfield, and that's fine. I just think we could do better. Really can't see the drama in that.

 I remember when Henderson played DM and some fans longed for a more natural DM. He was fiercely defended, and it was pointed out that Klopp put him at 6. Well, Klopp bought Fabinho and the rest is histor.  Henderson was fine, but Fabinho is way better and has markedly improved our midfield. I feel the same way about our 8s now.

[RedG13]

Some of you are making out like the highlighted is a bad thing. We're winning with our midfield as a part of it. Penetration is becoming a bad word these days. We're somehow winning games without penetration at the rate that we're somehow defying football. We got to have had a pact with someone to do that with a bad 1st choice midfield/with no 'penetration'.

I mentioned two different thing that also help each other. I dont see how winning would be a bad thing. It also means we dont have a look for change solution and rush players players back. We also have elite level finishing and GK which would help that. Also have FB who provide creativity and penetration from wide positions. It good thing we can win in multiple ways also.

[Bjornar]

When do we get to the point where Klopp getting it right every previous time means that he and not (some) fans is probably right this time as well?

What City are doing is unprecedented in English football (as is what we're doing to match them). No club without the combination of Guardiola and either Messi or ridiculous financial backing compared to the rest has ever to my knowledge matched their chance creation in a major league. Us not doing that but "only" as it stands beating them on points has precious little to do with picking Henderson over Keita/Oxlade-Chamberlain or not. With or without that change, we'll have to beat them another way than outcreating/outscoring them. It's an unreachable bar IMO and not the one we're reaching for anyway, it's the points that matter.

[Legoland]

Hendo and Gini offer a lot of good qualities.

For one, they have great stamina, a good sense of discipline and are consistently good at performing their defensive duties. Having said that, there is room for improvement in that they can offer either more penetrative passes or make more penetrative runs. I feel that they don't do that because of they either lack the ability or the right sense of decision making (skill as POP put it). Keita and OX are yet to demonstrate the leadership levels and other intangible elements that Gini and Hendo have shown (although this is just a matter of having a chance to demonstrate). However, if they can offer the penetrative passing and runs without losing out on a sense of discipline and whilst simultaneously performing their defensive duties, there's no reason why this team can't improve...

That could possible take our expected goals scored per game up to the peak MSN Barca season without a cost of increasing our expected goals conceded.

[DanA]

As none of Gini,Fab and Hendo provide penetration centrally at an elite level, they not really creative they will struggle with low blocks and can have issues vs the high press. I think Klopp more been starting the MF for two reason bc of injuries and they been winnings. He doesn't like to change when winning also Keita been hurt so he doesn't want to over work him coming back from injury. Ox is coming off an injury and they are handling him carefully. I would expect to have 1 of Ox and Keita starting every game probably after this next international break.

They will struggle with low blocks and issues vs the high press? Come on, we are Champions League winners and 6 points clear with just one draw against Man Utd. Our midfielders are disciplined so our fullbacks don’t have to be.

I wouldn’t change this winning formula.

[BrandoLFC]

They will struggle with low blocks and issues vs the high press? Come on, we are Champions League winners and 6 points clear with just one draw against Man Utd. Our midfielders are disciplined so our fullbacks don’t have to be.

I wouldn’t change this winning formula.

But yet Trent is being accused of not being good defensively when it's the midfielders job to cover for him as he's being asked to do all the heavy lifting with the ball progression into the final 3rd.  Most of the conversation whether about Trent or the midfield is that the way they're being used is rather unique in world football so it doesn't fit with the notion of what each player should be doing or why they should be doing it.

[Bjornar]

Most of the conversation whether about Trent or the midfield is that the way they're being used is rather unique in world football so it doesn't fit with the notion of what each player should be doing or why they should be doing it.

Agree, good post.

With Trent we have perhaps the best crosser of the ball in the world, part of what we're doing is using that IMO. And with time he could well become an even more consistent attacking threat for us with those crosses, which could be massive as they're so hard to defend when he gets them right.

[mrantarctica]

Happy to be corrected, but to my reckoning, for all this complaint about not enough goals from midfielders, I think about 50% of our last 15 goals have come from our midfielders!

Milner, Lallana, Gini, Ox and now Hendo have all scored in the last 10 games and that seems to have made up about half (or just slightly less) of our goals which is actually not too bad.

I think were all just used to Gerrard belting in goals all the time, even though he wasn't strictly a midfielder in his most prolific seasons anyway

[ThePoolMan]

Agree, good post.

With Trent we have perhaps the best crosser of the ball in the world, part of what we're doing is using that IMO. And with time he could well become an even more consistent attacking threat for us with those crosses, which could be massive as they're so hard to defend when he gets them right.

It should be beyond reasonable dispute that both our fullbacks are integral to the spine of our team and are the world's best at their respective positions. Which other fullbacks in world football are as complete attacking wise and defensively as they are?

[reddebs]

Ahahaha crossing isn't a reliable way to get goals? 

How many assists did Trent and Robbo have last season?

I hate all this comparison to City bullshit. 

We don't play or set up like them.

Stick a "10" in this team, replace the FBs with proper defenders, get Mo and Sadio to get white on their boots?

Wtf for?  So we can play the same as pundits think we should.

Get the fuck out of here!!

We're unique, we're Liverpool and we're leading the way.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

[Knight]

They will struggle with low blocks and issues vs the high press? Come on, we are Champions League winners and 6 points clear with just one draw against Man Utd. Our midfielders are disciplined so our fullbacks don’t have to be.

I wouldn’t change this winning formula.

We can have potential or actual shortcomings when certain combinations of players are on the pitch AND be a fantastic football team. The fact is, we are incredible and we have got very little wrong this season. However it is also a fact that teams have tried to nullify us (with success on occasion) by shutting down our fullbacks. When we have two players in midfield who are offering very little going forward that can be an issue. This is a perfect time to have the conversation too because we beat spurs. There's always a danger that talking about this post points dropped (utd for example), will sound like moaning. Which, given our brilliance, would be a poor look. But post a win, it's an enjoyable way of letting off steam to discuss this weakness. And it is a weakness, no matter what you say about this 'winning formula'. No one should want someone in their team giving it away as much as Henderson did on Sunday when they're offering no penetration alongside it. We potentially have the options available to us to be as solid defensively (which isn't actually that solid thus far this season), AND have more variety offensively. Why not talk about what that might look like.

[Magix]

I think we need to temper our expectations of what a more progressive and penetrative midfield could look like. The best balanced midfield on paper is said to be Fab-Gini-Keita, which I agree can be, but that's also putting a lot on pressure on Keita to be that transformative presence almost immediately. He needs minutes to build back his match fitness and fluency.

[keyop]

I don’t really get why so many are keen to change the midfield. This team has been on an absolute tear lately and having a combative midfield IMO has played a big part. Hendo, Gini and Fab might not be setting the world on fire with goals and assists but are a big part of our defensive record. Obviously VVD and Alisson played a massive part in the improvement as well but I do think our combative nature in the middle of the pitch adds plenty too.

I don’t think Keita/Oxlade are improvements. They’re good players and we need to rotate but IMO the starters are Fab/Gini/Hendo for the foreseeable future.

I think its mainly about having other attacking options when Trent/Robertson are pegged back (which is rare), or where the front 3 can't make the breakthrough (which is also rare).

I also think we still have vivid memories of a Gerrard/Alonso slide-rule pass to Torres, a Coutinho through ball to Suarez/Sturridge, or a Gerrard 30-yarder, which was so often a key factor in us winning games in 08/09 or 13/14. However, its worth remembering how porous our defence was then compared to now, and how full backs such as Arbeloa, Aurelio, Dossena, Johnson, and Enrique offered nothing like the energy, passing, attacking impetus, or assists that Trent and Robertson do.

Perhaps it all comes down to patience. I think the desire to have a more penetrative midfield (even with our points haul over the last 18 months) is largely due to the standards we need to reach to beat City to the title, and turn draws into wins, and find a way through a defence with a creative spark when needed (the Utd game being a recent example).

I think there's perhaps also a desire to get a midfield that can maximise the talents of our front 3 as much as possible whilst they're at their peak. As effective as our team is at the moment (and there's an argument to say if it ain't broke don't fix it...), there's no doubt that more penetrative balls from midfield for Mane and Salah to run onto could possibly take us up another level, and Keita and AoC certainly have that in their locker.

The argument on here is often that a more attacking midfield won't work in a system where the fullbacks and front 3 do so much of the damage (because in such a system, the midfield needs to be more robust and workmanlike). I certainly think we're quite rare in having two full backs that are so versatile and capable in advanced positions, and even the likes of Alves/Lahm at Barca and Bayern knew they could bomb forward knowing there were 3 defenders covering (not two), plus the defensive midfielder.

However, I think whoever Klopp chooses, its perfectly reasonable to hold two opposing views about our team at the same time - namely that we're champions of Europe, absolutely boss and 6 points clear, but at the same time we do occasionally lack that extra special something through the middle.

[keyop]

It's also worth noting that Henderson is 30 next year and Wijnaldum 29, so regardless of how Klopp adjusts things (either this season or next), it's natural to assume that Keita and AoC could be their successors given that they're only 24 and 26. Fabinho has also just turned 26 last week, so we potentially have a midfield that could all reach their peak together which would be a key factor.

If form and fitness go well then I think over the next 12-18 months we'll see a gradual move from a mostly Henderson/Gini combination to Keita/AoC, which coincidentally would be happening when David Silva will be leaving, De Bruyne will be almost 30, Mahrez 30, Gundogan 31, and Fernandinho 36. Whilst we can’t put too much emphasis on what City do (and they can still spend big, of course), it does put us in a healthy position where a lot of key players are either approaching (or at) their peak at the same time between 2020 and 2022 (Alisson, Trent, Virgil, Robertson, Gomez, Fabinho, Keita, AoC, Mane, Firmino, Origi and Salah). And not forgetting James Milner of course...

By contrast, City will be increasingly looking to the likes of Sterling, B Silva, Rodri, and Sane/Jesus for inspiration and leadership, all of whom are still hugely reliant on David Silva (captain), Fernandinho (vice-captain), De Bruyne (third captain), and of course Aguero (who is 32 next year) to dictate and often win the key games. Of course, having lots of players (including the entire midfield) reaching their peak together is a double-edged sword and we'll have to properly succession-plan and reduce the risk of the kind of collapse we've seen at other clubs after a peak, but I'm sure we'll plan for that.

I think therefore a midfield of Fabinho, Keita and AoC may well be Klopp's ideal medium-long term vision, but the latter two aren't quite ready yet in terms of fitness or form (or game time together) to make the risk worthwhile - especially considering what we've achieved with a Fabinho/Wijnaldum/Henderson combination.

[BrandoLFC]

The reason you would get concerned and want more from your midfielder is there is only one Trent and he can't play every game.  Same with Robbo.  You're not buying that level of talent to sit on the bench either.  So when they are tired or injured what are does the team do?  They have to play differently and is it something they even work on that often since Trent will be right back in the next game?  It sounds silly but until the title is guaranteed you have to think you can't afford to even drop a point from now until then.

[PoetryInMotion]

The reason you would get concerned and want more from your midfielder is there is only one Trent and he can't play every game.  Same with Robbo.  You're not buying that level of talent to sit on the bench either.  So when they are tired or injured what are does the team do?  They have to play differently and is it something they even work on that often since Trent will be right back in the next game?  It sounds silly but until the title is guaranteed you have to think you can't afford to even drop a point from now until then.

That's why Hoever and Larouci are being developed. Hoever is a mini Trent. We'll suffer in the short term in our full-backs' absence, but we can play around it and secure wins. Milner and Fabinho can play full-back and cross the ball. We'll be fine in the long term, whether or not those youngsters make the step up. We're building a solid foundation for how we play, and we have replacements ready for most positions, I'm sure we will have more full-backs for how we want to play in the future.

[BrandoLFC]

That's why Hoever and Larouci are being developed. Hoever is a mini Trent. We'll suffer in the short term in our full-backs' absence, but we can play around it and secure wins. Milner and Fabinho can play full-back and cross the ball. We'll be fine in the long term, whether or not those youngsters make the step up. We're building a solid foundation for how we play, and we have replacements ready for most positions, I'm sure we will have more full-backs for how we want to play in the future.

Maybe what you're saying is true about Hoever and Larouci.  In general though the chances of one of them being as good as Trent is probably close to 0%.

[BazC]

https://youtu.be/-FnQCpKz0k0

That’s a good little summary that I came across on YouTube. Shows why our midfielders are more defensive - they need to be because of the nature of this team; the attacking fullbacks.

One of the interesting things I hadn’t realised though was mentioned at the end of the video - the number of crosses that both Man City and Liverpool put in per game.

Klopp’s built an aggressive, snarling pack of hungry wolves - he knows when there are loose ball situations, who’s coming out on top. Watching it vs Spurs was awesome at times - especially Van Dijk on Kane a couple of times (never seen Kane be thrown around like that). When it happens from the front 3 great things tend to happen - Mane, Firmino and Salah play in and around the box, Trent and Robertson supporting from deep wide areas. Crosses galore, and pouncing on loose balls. This is also why they put those low crosses into the box from corners! They’re not *shit* corners, they’re trying to ping them in to cause a bit of chaos in the opposition’s defence. And this team preys on that disorder with expert precision. Awesome watching this unfold.