The Liverpool FC Forum > News and Current Affairs
Brexit. the Con continues
stockdam:
--- Quote from: TSC on May 20, 2022, 07:35:36 pm ---DUP would love a land border, although won’t say so publicly. Back to their good old days, keep the republic separated with a hard border. Even better if patrolled by the British army.
--- End quote ---
None of that is true. Nobody is calling for a hard border nor for troups to patrol it.
I'll also ask a Devil's Advocate question here.................if there was no NI protocol then what issue would that cause (it certainly wouldn't be any direct issue to anyone other than Ireland in the EU).
oldfordie:
--- Quote from: stockdam on May 24, 2022, 09:25:47 pm ---None of that is true. Nobody is calling for a hard border nor for troups to patrol it.
I'll also ask a Devil's Advocate question here.................if there was no NI protocol then what issue would that cause (it certainly wouldn't be any direct issue to anyone other than Ireland in the EU).
--- End quote ---
Not a matter of anyone calling for a hard border, it was always about finding solutions to prevent customs checks at the NI border, every country in the world out side the SM have customs checks. anyone who argued we can leave the EU which the DUP did back in 2016 has to give us the solutions to prevent the customs checks.
Best to go back to 2016 and remember the pre referendum arguments made by leave campaigners. we can over come customs checks with technology, leave then admitted there is no technology available so they argued there will be in the future which is bullshit. this is a big point, they conceded the argument of Brexit causing a hard border, Brexit is bringing a hard border, the protocol was a solution to prevent a hard border.
So there's your answer to the Devils advocate question. Brexit brought the hard border situation not the protocol, the protocol prevented a hard border, take the protocol away and we are back to 2016 Brexit basics. finding a solution to the Border problem caused by Brexit.
I would also disagree over it not being a issue with anyone else besides NI/GB+EU, the WTO have a rule called most favoured nations, if the UK-EU trade deal is ripped up then we can't just open our borders to allow EU goods etc to enter unchecked, same applies to the EU with UK goods. we have to allow goods from all the other WTO countries to enter unchecked as well. not going to happen but you were saying nobody else would have a say in it.
stockdam:
--- Quote from: oldfordie on May 24, 2022, 09:56:55 pm ---Not a matter of anyone calling for a hard border, it was always about finding solutions to prevent customs checks at the NI border, every country in the world out side the SM have customs checks. anyone who argued we can leave the EU which the DUP did back in 2016 has to give us the solutions to prevent the customs checks.
Best to go back to 2016 and remember the pre referendum arguments made by leave campaigners. we can over come customs checks with technology, leave then admitted there is no technology available so they argued there will be in the future which is bullshit. this is a big point, they conceded the argument of Brexit causing a hard border, Brexit is bringing a hard border, the protocol was a solution to prevent a hard border.
So there's your answer to the Devils advocate question. Brexit brought the hard border situation not the protocol, the protocol prevented a hard border, take the protocol away and we are back to 2016 Brexit basics. finding a solution to the Border problem caused by Brexit.
I would also disagree over it not being a issue with anyone else besides NI/GB+EU, the WTO have a rule called most favoured nations, if the UK-EU trade deal is ripped up then we can't just open our borders to allow EU goods etc to enter unchecked, same applies to the EU with UK goods. we have to allow goods from all the other WTO countries to enter unchecked as well. not going to happen but you were saying nobody else would have a say in it.
--- End quote ---
Yes the issue should have been sorted out at the time. Instead Johnson was only interested in the broader aspects of Brexit and not the details. At the time Stormont had been suspended and so nobody in NI had any input into the solution or at least debating it.
That's a good point about WTO. If the UK/EU agree to a way of having a soft border between NI and ROI then other countries would/could argue that they would like the same especially those with land borders into the EU. It's all a mess that hasn't been thought through.
oldfordie:
--- Quote from: stockdam on May 24, 2022, 10:16:34 pm ---Yes the issue should have been sorted out at the time. Instead Johnson was only interested in the broader aspects of Brexit and not the details. At the time Stormont had been suspended and so nobody in NI had any input into the solution or at least debating it.
That's a good point about WTO. If the UK/EU agree to a way of having a soft border between NI and ROI then other countries would/could argue that they would like the same especially those with land borders into the EU. It's all a mess that hasn't been thought through.
--- End quote ---
It's typical of the whole Brexit leave campaign, they have rewrote history on everything concerning Brexit. the NI border problem was openely discussed at the time. Blair+Major held a news conference at the time pointing out how Brexit would break the Good friday agreement. all solid arguments but many either paid no attention or listened to the DUP/Tory bullshit lies.
The DUP must have known the consequences to Ireland Brexit brought. IMO. they had no problem with the consequences( a hard border) just as long as they never took the blame for it.
I just shake my head and cringe when the DUP talk about the Protocol, the Torys really worked it up them but they can never admit it. they never saw the sea border coming which f.. them up good style. they are now reduced to appealing to ignorance to lay the blame on the EU for the problems the DUP brought to Ireland
stockdam:
--- Quote from: oldfordie on May 24, 2022, 10:32:19 pm ---It's typical of the whole Brexit leave campaign, they have rewrote history on everything concerning Brexit. the NI border problem was openely discussed at the time. Blair+Major held a news conference at the time pointing out how Brexit would break the Good friday agreement. all solid arguments but many either paid no attention or listened to the DUP/Tory bullshit lies.
The DUP must have known the consequences to Ireland Brexit brought. IMO. they had no problem with the consequences( a hard border) just as long as they never took the blame for it.
I just shake my head and cringe when the DUP talk about the Protocol, the Torys really worked it up them but they can never admit it. they never saw the sea border coming which f.. them up good style. they are now reduced to appealing to ignorance to lay the blame on the EU for the problems the DUP brought to Ireland
--- End quote ---
The issues were debated at Westminster but not at Stormont and that to me is where the issue started. Nothing sticks in NI without the local long dance.
As far as I remember, the DUP didn't want a hard border......I don't think anyone wants that or has offered that as a solution. Most of the talk at the time seemed to be about how technology would solve the problem at the border but then Johnson appeared to agree the protocol without any debate with the local politicians.
I'm not sure how Brexit breaks the Good Friday agreement....there's nothing in the agreement that I can see would be broken.
I don't think this will be sorted out quickly as it never does when "one side" appears to be happy and the other aren't. There's now a stronger middle ground (Alliance) and they are pro protocol so the solution may be to get things moving cheaply and quickly across the sea. There has been an impact and that needs to be resolved (for example there are lots of empty shelves in supermarkets, some GB based companies will not ship to NI and some items take weeks rather than days to get through (for example garden centres aren't happy). Make things much easier, cheaper and quicker and most people would be happy.
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