Topic: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance

[Razors Razor]

Yes I would be third is hardly massively overachieving now is it? Also some players like Van Dijk recaptured their top level.

You're missing my point. Let's just leave it.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

4 wins and see where we are with 86 points.

Probably not gonna win the league (and probably not going to get that either)

But if we crack 80 points, with a trophy, I would say it is hard to call that a bad season

[Razors Razor]

maybe read the room and stop being a tit.

Good to see all the big post count bully's are out tonight. YNWA indeed!

[Studgotelli]

Probably not gonna win the league (and probably not going to get that either)

But if we crack 80 points, with a trophy, I would say it is hard to call that a bad season

Yeah I agree. We’d need Arsenal and City to pretty much lose 2 of their remaining games. Unlikely but not impossible.

[collytum]

We were Unlikely to win it before the Everton game, absolutely out of it now. The last month has been an absolute disgrace from the players, hardly any of them get any credit.

[vblfc]

We were Unlikely to win it before the Everton game, absolutely out of it now. The last month has been an absolute disgrace from the players, hardly any of them get any credit.

I think that’s way too harsh mate. Some players have struggled a bit, but no way anyone has been an “absolute disgrace”.  Take a deep breath and think about those words “hardly any” of them. We have loads of positives from this season and our players have been great for most of it.

[Heritage]

I think that’s way too harsh mate. Some players have struggled a bit, but no way anyone has been an “absolute disgrace”.  Take a deep breath and think about those words “hardly any” of them. We have loads of positives from this season and our players have been great for most of it.

Agreed, I don't think we should be speaking about our team in such terms

[jckliew]

Totally out of it. It's about getting the points to secure the top 4. After that Klopp might as well play the kids.

O my...we still have to worry about our 3rd position. 
3rd position chances 80%

[Eeyore]

We were Unlikely to win it before the Everton game, absolutely out of it now. The last month has been an absolute disgrace from the players, hardly any of them get any credit.

Would that be the same players who got us into that position?

[MosDefKop]

Finished watching on delay.
I don't recall ever seeing an end of the season collapse by us in 35 odd years.
Most disappointing thing over the past month is lack of in-game intelligence. Its a major problem.
The team has got poorer once more of the kids were taken out of the team!?!

I've written the season off. Looked like the team already had.
I am just looking forward to next year with a clean start and new manager with new ideas and a fresh view of the obvious flaws we have.

Can't lie, I am down.  But I'm optimistic for next year as we do have a very strong squad.

[LFCEmpire]

Those stats ain't true, we still have a slim chance.

Just need Manchester City to drop points against Tottenham Away and one more.

Arsenal we need them to drop points against Tottenham Away and one more (United away maybe)

We now have to win every game, I don't think it's possible but it's not done just yet

Please stop.

[Avens]

Hilarious seeing posters call the players and manager a disgrace for us not winning the title race they've done brilliantly to get us into in the first place. The Klopp era has been too good for some of you. I'm gutted it's faded as it as, but my word what a ride it was.

[Eeyore]

Hilarious seeing posters call the players and manager a disgrace for us not winning the title race they've done brilliantly to get us into in the first place. The Klopp era has been too good for some of you. I'm gutted it's faded as it as, but my word what a ride it was.

I thought it was your position that it was the genius of FSG an Edwards that got us into this position?

Klopp shouldn't matter surely?

[Samie]

I'm calling the players a disgrace. Kloppo has done too much for us for them fuckers to let us and him down.

[Eeyore]

I'm calling the players a disgrace. Kloppo has done too much for us for them fuckers to let us and him down.

Or maybe the genius of Klopp elevated the players to perform at a higher level than they should have.

Not being funny but apart from Ali I don't see anyone else getting close to our best 11 at their current level. Two or three years ago you would have had four or five players who had a genuine shout about being one of our greatest players.

[Avens]

I thought it was your position that it was the genius of FSG an Edwards that got us into this position?

Klopp shouldn't matter surely?

Al in 'making up utter garbage' shocker. I get that you're desperate to get into arguments tonight, but there are plenty of others you can actually argue with, rather than someone who has always said Klopp has been the best manager in the world in his time with us. Having a world class manager and functioning owners aren't mutually exclusive - in fact some would say they go hand in hand.

[Avens]

I'm calling the players a disgrace. Kloppo has done too much for us for them fuckers to let us and him down.

Have they let us down though? I go into every season hopeful we can do something special, but I don't think many necessarily expected a title challenge this year. We'll probably finish third, which is a decent finish considering the upheaval over the summer. It was only overperformance that had us thinking we might win it. Tough to watch at the moment, incredibly frustrating, but at least we got another bit of silverware (in a spectacular way) and back into the Champions League - we would've taken that at the start.

[Samie]

Fair points mate but Al also ha sa ponit. Bar Ali none of our "top players"  are consistent enough these days.

[Eeyore]

Al in 'making up utter garbage' shocker. I get that you're desperate to get into arguments tonight, but there are plenty of others you can actually argue with, rather than someone who has always said Klopp has been the best manager in the world in his time with us. Having a world class manager and functioning owners aren't mutually exclusive - in fact some would say they go hand in hand.

Hey Ho.

How about we draw a line in the sand around about now and we both give our judgement on who we think was largely responsible for our great run over the last 7 or 8 years?

I will say it was largely down to Klopp and think things will get worse from now on.

What is your opinion?

[G Richards]

We have to keep going, but with two teams to overcome and the games running out, plus our lack of form, well… the title is extremely unlikely.

I have mixed feelings. Before the season I would have been quite happy with a CL finish, a trophy, and the introduction of some cracking young players with at least two of them having a great chance to be here for the long haul.

We definitely overachieved to be in a title race this long, but once you are in it, you have to go for it. That feeling is amplified in light of Klopp’s decision. And that’s where it is so disappointing to see it fizzle out. I started to dream of another Prem title and a perfect finale for Klopp. But almost certainly that won’t happen now. Hopefully we find a way to regroup and finish with a few wins and see where it takes us, but the group as a whole just looks deflated.   

[Avens]

Hey Ho.

How about we draw a line in the sand around about now and we both give our judgement on who we think was largely responsible for our great run over the last 7 or 8 years?

I will say it was largely down to Klopp and think things will get worse from now on.

What is your opinion?

I think that's quite a childish way of looking at football. As ever, these things go better when it's a team effort, aligned from top to bottom. The best thing FSG have done, and the most important in them overseeing this period of success, was hiring Klopp - I think we agree on that. Klopp is a genius and over that period of time, I don't think any other manager would have been able to compete with City the way he was.

Can they replicate that? It'll be a tough act to follow, but hopefully with the right structure in place we'll have a chance of doing well again with an inferior manager (not a slight on anyone, they're all inferior to Klopp).

[Avens]

Fair points mate but Al also ha sa ponit. Bar Ali none of our "top players"  are consistent enough these days.

Yeah but that's kinda contradictory to the idea that they've let anyone down. If they're not good enough then they've been overachieving until the last month or so.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Hey Ho.

How about we draw a line in the sand around about now and we both give our judgement on who we think was largely responsible for our great run over the last 7 or 8 years?

I will say it was largely down to Klopp and think things will get worse from now on.

What is your opinion?

For me there isn't one person - it's been a club effort. At the top of the club money has been available to make big investments when needed. The recruitment side of things have brought in way more hits than misses. Klopp has then coached/managed that group of players brilliantly. Plenty of players have held up their side of the bargain (however good the coaching, they have to step on the pitch and get results). The youth setup has brought through TAA. Anfield is still one of the few grounds in the world that can get into the heads of even the best visiting teams.

So for almost a decade the club at all levels has been performing at an elite level. When Klopp leaves one of those elite cornerstones will be absent and so I would not be surprised to see a drop off in performance. But if that happens it won't mean that Klopp has been responsible for everything good we've seen the last few years, just a sizeable proportion of it.

[Eeyore]

I think that's quite a childish way of looking at football. As ever, these things go better when it's a team effort, aligned from top to bottom. The best thing FSG have done, and the most important in them overseeing this period of success, was hiring Klopp - I think we agree on that. Klopp is a genius and over that period of time, I don't think any other manager would have been able to compete with City the way he was.

Can they replicate that? It'll be a tough act to follow, but hopefully with the right structure in place we'll have a chance of doing well again with an inferior manager (not a slight on anyone, they're all inferior to Klopp).

Fuck me did you really say that with the right structure in place we have a chance of doing well again. I take it you don't make your living from doing motivational speeches?

We are one of the biggest club on the planet. We have one of the biggest revenues on the planet.

Forget that. Hey hum with the right structure in place we MIGHT have a chance of doing well.

[Eeyore]

For me there isn't one person - it's been a club effort. At the top of the club money has been available to make big investments when needed. The recruitment side of things have brought in way more hits than misses. Klopp has then coached/managed that group of players brilliantly. Plenty of players have held up their side of the bargain (however good the coaching, they have to step on the pitch and get results). The youth setup has brought through TAA. Anfield is still one of the few grounds in the world that can get into the heads of even the best visiting teams.

So for almost a decade the club at all levels has been performing at an elite level. When Klopp leaves one of those elite cornerstones will be absent and so I would not be surprised to see a drop off in performance. But if that happens it won't mean that Klopp has been responsible for everything good we've seen the last few years, just a sizeable proportion of it.

How was it a club effort when Edwards left, when Ward left, when Gordon left, when Graham left.

How was it a club effort when Jorg arrive as an interim DoF.

There has been fuck all club effort and very much a Klopp effort. No wonder he is fucked and is walking away. No wonder we have fell apart since Klopp said he was walking away.

[Avens]

things will get worse from now on.

What is your opinion?

Can they replicate that? It'll be a tough act to follow, but hopefully with the right structure in place we'll have a chance of doing well again

Fuck me did you really say that with the right structure in place we have a chance of doing well again. I take it you don't make your living from doing motivational speeches?

You really are Trump, just with better political views. Goodnight Al. Sleep it off mate.

[Avens]

For me there isn't one person - it's been a club effort. At the top of the club money has been available to make big investments when needed. The recruitment side of things have brought in way more hits than misses. Klopp has then coached/managed that group of players brilliantly. Plenty of players have held up their side of the bargain (however good the coaching, they have to step on the pitch and get results). The youth setup has brought through TAA. Anfield is still one of the few grounds in the world that can get into the heads of even the best visiting teams.

So for almost a decade the club at all levels has been performing at an elite level. When Klopp leaves one of those elite cornerstones will be absent and so I would not be surprised to see a drop off in performance. But if that happens it won't mean that Klopp has been responsible for everything good we've seen the last few years, just a sizeable proportion of it.

Excellent post Sammy.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

How was it a club effort when Edwards left, when Ward left, when Gordon left, when Graham left.

How was it a club effort when Jorg arrive as an interim DoF.

There has been fuck all club effort and very much a Klopp effort. No wonder he is fucked and is walking away. No wonder we have fell apart since Klopp said he was walking away.

That's an easy question to answer I think. When people left they didn't take their good work with them. We continued to benefit from their good decisions.

You could argue that the performance on the pitch has dropped off it's peak since some of those backroom people moved on. Personally I wouldn't agree with that analysis - I think it is more a natural process whereby a world class team can only maintain that level for so long before age and fatigue takes its toll. But given the last three years we've had a bad season, a good season and an ugly season and given that one of the constants of those season has been Klopp I'd be pretty reluctant to argue that it is him that's been behind all of the success and others that have been responsible when we've fallen short.

[Eeyore]

You really are Trump, just with better political views. Goodnight Al. Sleep it off mate.

Don't you get the point we are one of the richest clubs on the planet. Yet you are stating that with the right structure in place we will have a chance of doing well again.

That is fucking nuts.

[Avens]

That's an easy question to answer I think. When people left they didn't take their good work with them. We continued to benefit from their good decisions.

You could argue that the performance on the pitch has dropped off it's peak since some of those backroom people moved on. Personally I wouldn't agree with that analysis - I think it is more a natural process whereby a world class team can only maintain that level for so long before age and fatigue takes its toll. But given the last three years we've had a bad season, a good season and an ugly season and given that one of the constants of those season has been Klopp I'd be pretty reluctant to argue that it is him that's been behind all of the success and others that have been responsible when we've fallen short.

Excellent post Sammy.

[Eeyore]

That's an easy question to answer I think. When people left they didn't take their good work with them. We continued to benefit from their good decisions.

You could argue that the performance on the pitch has dropped off it's peak since some of those backroom people moved on. Personally I wouldn't agree with that analysis - I think it is more a natural process whereby a world class team can only maintain that level for so long before age and fatigue takes its toll. But given the last three years we've had a bad season, a good season and an ugly season and given that one of the constants of those season has been Klopp I'd be pretty reluctant to argue that it is him that's been behind all of the success and others that have been responsible when we've fallen short.

I will make it easy for you.

Klopp+Mainz=success
Klopp+Dortmund=success
Klopp+Liverpool=success

Dortmund+other managers=failure
FSG+other managers=failures

What do you think is the main contributing factor?

[Avens]

Don't you get the point we are one of the richest clubs on the planet. Yet you are stating that with the right structure in place we will have a chance of doing well again.

That is fucking nuts.

Yes... in direct response to you saying things will get worse from now. They might, but I imagine we'll still have some fun days to look forward to. Not too sure which part of that viewpoint is fucking nuts. You're feeling far too gloomy to do anything but argue with everything, even if it means arguing against yourself.

[King_doggerel]

Yeah I agree. We’d need Arsenal and City to pretty much lose 2 of their remaining games. Unlikely but not impossible.

don;t do it to yourselves

[Sammy5IsAlive]

I will make it easy for you.

Klopp+Mainz=success
Klopp+Dortmund=success
Klopp+Liverpool=success

Dortmund+other managers=failure
FSG+other managers=failures

What do you think is the main contributing factor?

Since Klopp left, Dortmund have finished 2nd five times, 3rd twice, and 4th once. So they've hardly dropped into midtable.

Rodgers came very close to winning the league with us. Obviously it turned sour pretty quickly afterwards but I don't think anyone is arguing that he's anywhere near Klopp's level.

If you wanted to follow the argument through the looking glass you could end up arguing that if FSG had just hired Klopp after sacking Hodgson he would have been challenging for titles and European honours with the likes of Mignolet Downing and Carroll.

[Eeyore]

Since Klopp left, Dortmund have finished 2nd five times, 3rd twice, and 4th once. So they've hardly dropped into midtable.

Rodgers came very close to winning the league with us. Obviously it turned sour pretty quickly afterwards but I don't think anyone is arguing that he's anywhere near Klopp's level.

If you wanted to follow the argument through the looking glass you could end up arguing that if FSG had just hired Klopp after sacking Hodgson he would have been challenging for titles and European honours with the likes of Mignolet Downing and Carroll.

Dortmund won titles under Klopp.

They have won fuck all since then.

[Johnny Aldridge]

Don't you get the point we are one of the richest clubs on the planet. Yet you are stating that with the right structure in place we will have a chance of doing well again.

That is fucking nuts.

I could be wrong but I take in this case “structure” to mean management and upstairs people. We’ve always been a big global club, but for 30 years it didn’t help us win a league. It takes the right management team along with players and recruitment staff etc to have a “chance of doing well” IE winning.

[Dim Glas]

Since Klopp left, Dortmund have finished 2nd five times, 3rd twice, and 4th once. So they've hardly dropped into midtable.

Rodgers came very close to winning the league with us. Obviously it turned sour pretty quickly afterwards but I don't think anyone is arguing that he's anywhere near Klopp's level.

If you wanted to follow the argument through the looking glass you could end up arguing that if FSG had just hired Klopp after sacking Hodgson he would have been challenging for titles and European honours with the likes of Mignolet Downing and Carroll.

Not getting involved with you and Al’s ‘discussion’, but Dortmund have never really got over Klopp leaving, as much as they used to pretend they did.  And there’s been that sense of regret that they didn’t do what needed doing, and what Klopp didn’t want them to do - break up and rebuild the team, and get him to stay, rather than the other way round.

Bayern have dropped 10 levels in this time also don’t forget.  And league positions can be a bit deceptive, they’ve gone through too many coaches, they’ve underachieved at a time when the league was there for the taking in about 4 seasons since he left, in which they failled to win it.  But hey, if they win the CL this year, maybe finally they can move on 

But I don’t think it’ll be the same for Liverpool, as they have the ‘prestige’ and ability to pay bigger fees and the huge wages that BVB never did.

[In the Name of Klopp]

Since Klopp left, Dortmund have finished 2nd five times, 3rd twice, and 4th once. So they've hardly dropped into midtable.

Rodgers came very close to winning the league with us. Obviously it turned sour pretty quickly afterwards but I don't think anyone is arguing that he's anywhere near Klopp's level.

If you wanted to follow the argument through the looking glass you could end up arguing that if FSG had just hired Klopp after sacking Hodgson he would have been challenging for titles and European honours with the likes of Mignolet Downing and Carroll.

We were a mess, a banter club for five years under FSG, and going nowhere until Klopp arrived. FSG managed to sack three managers in that time. The best thing they've ever done for the club and their investment was hiring him. I really believe in that we'd still be hovering around midtable if Klopp wasn't here. He gave us a life, and a purpose, united us, and guided us out of the mess. now I'm getting all emotional.

[Razors Razor]

We were a mess, a banter club for five years under FSG, and going nowhere until Klopp arrived. FSG managed to sack three managers in that time. The best thing they've ever done for the club and their investment was hiring him. I really believe in that we'd still be hovering around midtable if Klopp wasn't here. He gave us a life, and a purpose, united us, and guided us out of the mess. now I'm getting all emotional.

Yup. Fun times ahead :/