Topic: The Anfield Wrap

[[new username under construction]]

Yeah but we'd come up with belter q's mate like...should Kloppo start wearing an elastic band on his glasses to avoid this happening?

I think you'll find Klopp is actually throwing his glasses back onto his face, yeah he's that fucking good!

[campioni]

This is a great summary and I think when you look at the feedback on here, the feedback on the TAW site, and even the comments from Gareth on the clip yesterday it is clear that some of the opinions on the pod were perhaps a little extreme and lacking balance. What is also clear is the support for TAW and the value that fans place on it as a medium that can discuss all matters red in a sensible and balanced way. This is about the Klopp criticism by the way, not ticketing which I think needs further debate.

What we have seen is people expressing concern that TAW starts moving away from its core strengths and starts chasing reaction. My view is that as TAW becomes more popular, there is even more responsibility on it to be the voice of reason.

Last week after Porto, we had Lineker saying to Gerrard that Klopp has faced criticism from the fans / that some fans are not keen, Gerrard, who I thought answered well, didn't deny the fact but stressed it was a minority. I'm not saying Lineker was referring to the Wrap, but merely pointing out that once the perception of fan unrest takes a hold, it can quickly morph into something more. Don't forget as a fanbase we have previous for this.

Equally, I'm not saying the Wrap shouldn't criticise or question - there's a way of doing it in a constructive and supportive way, rather than a lets find something, anything to criticise. Or worse, be determined to be the first to find a weakness and be able to say I told you so.

TAW is a group of Liverpool supporters voicing their opinion on various issues going on at the club and football in general. I would say there are well over 50 contributors to TAW and with that number of people you will always get a wide variety of opinions on each issue. Expecting them to be 'the voice of reason' is unrealistic and not what I imagine they set out to do. If contributors are criticising the club needlessly then I expect other contributors to call them out on it and provide an argument as to why they think its bullshit. By and large I do think that happens on TAW. But you can't expect TAW to avoid any criticism of the club and act as if nothing is wrong when sometimes there is, just because it might paint a negative picture of the club in the national media.

As for TAW chasing reaction, I think that is well wide of the mark. You get that shit from the likes of Talksport who have their presenters argue points which they know full well in their own heads are complete nonsense, just so they can generate outrage and people spending money to phone them up to argue back. TAW is nothing like that.

With regards to Lineker, he's a big twitter user. I doubt he has to search too far on there to see some wildly negative opinions on Klopp / the club by people that supposedly support the club.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

TAW is a group of Liverpool supporters voicing their opinion on various issues going on at the club and football in general. I would say there are well over 50 contributors to TAW and with that number of people you will always get a wide variety of opinions on each issue. Expecting them to be 'the voice of reason' is unrealistic and not what I imagine they set out to do. If contributors are criticising the club needlessly then I expect other contributors to call them out on it and provide an argument as to why they think its bullshit. By and large I do think that happens on TAW. But you can't expect TAW to avoid any criticism of the club and act as if nothing is wrong when sometimes there is, just because it might paint a negative picture of the club in the national media.

As for TAW chasing reaction, I think that is well wide of the mark. You get that shit from the likes of Talksport who have their presenters argue points which they know full well in their own heads are complete nonsense, just so they can generate outrage and people spending money to phone them up to argue back. TAW is nothing like that.

With regards to Lineker, he's a big twitter user. I doubt he has to search too far on there to see some wildly negative opinions on Klopp / the club by people that supposedly support the club.

Please don't put words in my mouth.
I never said they were chasing reaction, I just said that people would be concerned if it starts to move away from core strengths and starts to chase reaction. There's a difference.
I also made the effort to point out that I wasn't saying Lineker was referring to the Wrap.
Not sure I agree about expecting them to be the voice of reason being unrealistic - they've actually managed that pretty well from inception. It may or may not be what they set out to do but my view and that of lots of subscribers is that they provided decent comment and context in a sea of shite. All I, and to be fair several others have done, is provide constructive feedback on the dangers of straying too far from that.

Finally, I also pointed out that I am not saying the Wrap shouldn't criticise or question, merely that there is a way of doing it properly. My main issue here is what in my view is over the top criticism of Klopp, that can be twisted into Klopp out agendas by the media, which is a very different thing to TAW playing its part in holding the wider club or FSG to account.

[lamonti]

An interesting point about the cultural and societal factors that can lend themselves to fan ownership. The German model, as you say, probably reflects something in the German psyche. Their post-war introspection and will to put things right may well feed their collective endeavour and will to unite. Indeed, Spanish fan ownership may also be a by-product of them ridding themselves of the damaging influence of dictatorial masters following the death of Franco. Fan ownership is built on socialist ideals in many ways, which is at odds with how British business has been built up over the past few centuries. I'm obviously over-simplifying very complex issues here but hopefully you get my point.

In short, maybe such ideals aren't built into the British psyche no matter how much we'd like it to be otherwise.

Very good show.

I too am wary of over-simplifying things with regards to the broad sweep of societal factors... but since I'm here doing it already, I would say that those factors that are derived from local/national social structures and practices have roots much deeper than 50 years. Post-war Germany reckoning with itself is a huge factor, but most of the clubs already existed before the war – although the Bundesliga did not.

Best book I've read (although not quite finished) is The Ball Is Round by David Goldblatt FYI. Might actually be the best book I've ever read about football. Also Uli Hesse's Tor! is great on German football history.

[Fitzy.]

I too am wary of over-simplifying things with regards to the broad sweep of societal factors... but since I'm here doing it already, I would say that those factors that are derived from local/national social structures and practices have roots much deeper than 50 years. Post-war Germany reckoning with itself is a huge factor, but most of the clubs already existed before the war – although the Bundesliga did not.

Best book I've read (although not quite finished) is The Ball Is Round by David Goldblatt FYI. Might actually be the best book I've ever read about football. Also Uli Hesse's Tor! is great on German football history.

Thanks for the heads up. I’ll look out for these.

[SlowRap]

Just listening to the questions podcast,

Very refreshing and the sort of conversations you wont read about much on here but you will have them in taxis, pubs and other public places around the city.

[NotTooXabi12]

Absolute state of mike nevins twitter feed.

[Filler.]

Re: Question Time

Quality debate had by all. Always good to hear points of views debated well and contested well when certain views raised are asked to be, and there were certainly a few of those. Alot to possibly comment on throughout the show, but I just wanted to get something off my chest about the Klopp chat at the start. Have listened to it twice now, as at first, I wasn't sure if the 'antics' on the touchline that a few have an issue with were focussed on the whole geeing up the crowd thing, or just his general 'fist-pumping' character. Am pretty sure it's the latter.

This led onto other factors about Klopp which I found intruiging - that he's given more scope and more room because of these so called 'antics' of his and his general likeablity about the place. I personally find that a relief if so. I didn't want Rafa to go, or Kenny to go, or Rodgers to go, so that puts me into a certain category of fan perhaps, but if it gives him a bit more time away from a baying mob then great. Speaking of which - the almost universal love in that Rafa now receives from Liverpool fans I find pretty laughable. Where were they when it mattered?

I don't buy into any of this Klopp=Shankly stuff you sometimes hear/read (has that helped to nourish the irritation?), but there is at least a certain sense of irony at work here regarding the fact Klopp has yet to win anything is there not?

Is there an irritation about Klopp's likeability outside Liverpool that has helped nurture a certain sniffiness about it all, or is it a general dislike of being quite free with emotion? Rafa used to get a bit of grief of showing none - could never get my head around that either.

[red_Mark1980]

Fwiw I listened to the question time pod on a run.

If I had other podcasts on me id have moved on.

I'm sorry but the almost constant need by some to bring it back to FSG was boring.

I get it, you don't like them.

The shouts as Alonso or Gerrard as managers is laughable.

For every Kenny, Zidane and Pep there's a Gary Neville, John Barnes or Alan Sherear

[DangerScouse]

The criticisms when made are because it's vague pie-in-the-sky stuff, not concrete suggestions. There are some of the latter too, but far too much of the former.

You can be dissatisfied with some thing whilst not having suggestions on how to remedy it. It was acknowledged how difficult the ticketing situation is with regard to pleasing everyone.

Can't think anything that was said which was hugely over critical and/or out of line. Storm in a tea cup.

[CONFIAMOS]

Absolute state of mike nevins twitter feed.

What do you mean?

[Ipcress]

I want to add my voice to those praising the Big Question podcast. Well researched and argued by everyone involved, educational and entertaining, intelligent and illuminating and well hosted by Rob. Thanks guys.

[CONFIAMOS]

The problem is this, if you are going to criticise the club for screwing LFC fans, when you've been happy enough to screw a LFC fan out of a season ticket each year for the last 12, you should be aware that you are coming across as a bit of a hypocrite.

Oh, and for the record, I'm happy when a Liverpool manager uses everything that gives us an advantage, and if that includes galvanising the 12th man, then that's brilliant.

Jesus Christ. I despair at some of the stupid FSG sheep on here. Quick there's a scouser with a ticket in someone elses name, get him! The point well made is that thousands and thousands are using tickets in someone elses name each game. Why? Because people have died and the ticket has continued to be renewed over the years (and generations!), the system as it were, once allowed people to have 4 STs in one name or 4 under a company name - these are still in circulation, online - touting agencies and closer to home websites like this one which has alone circulated thousands to all those naughty people who should have a far far far! better moral compass than to accept a ticket in someone elses name... and of course people, friends who've maybe been going to the match for years or maybe have not but of course over the years it's all been allowed to take place with little moderation by the club. Because that was the system.

I'll admit I don't know where I'm going with this but I read senseless shite on here and elsewhere time again having snide digs and often at people who are with the best intentions trying to help sort this mess out. All of the above is a product of the club allowing the ticket situation evolve in the manner it has and now finally with talk of an amnesty it looks like they're ready to consult on solutions and to act going forward to make the whole thing 'fairer' - if you can describe it as that.

In the meantime rather than throwing the boot in people, stakeholders in this wider discussion should be considering how they can contribute some progressive ideas going forward. Pointing the finger at individuals is sad. If you're into that point it at FSG for being complete mingebags. A stadium to cater for demand would solve the whole fucking thing.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

Loved the lower league show.
Interesting guests and well hosted. It's good to hear views from fans and owners of teams from outside the bubble of the premier league and all that it entails.
The Shrewsbury fan really conveyed the sheer joy of having one of those seasons when it all goes right and he's enjoying it with his kids. Hope they get what they want. Great to hear the sheer enjoyment and appreciation of the season they are having with no sense of entitlement.

[Iska]

I want to add my voice to those praising the Big Question podcast. Well researched and argued by everyone involved, educational and entertaining, intelligent and illuminating and well hosted by Rob. Thanks guys.

I thought so too.  It made a nice ‘other side of the coin’ to the Question Time pod from the day before that drew all the barbs on here.  Listened to together they’d probably make for a well-rounded whole.

[KingKenny]

  played lad.

Jesus Christ. I despair at some of the stupid FSG sheep on here. Quick there's a scouser with a ticket in someone elses name, get him! The point well made is that thousands and thousands are using tickets in someone elses name each game. Why? Because people have died and the ticket has continued to be renewed over the years (and generations!), the system as it were, once allowed people to have 4 STs in one name or 4 under a company name - these are still in circulation, online - touting agencies and closer to home websites like this one which has alone circulated thousands to all those naughty people who should have a far far far! better moral compass than to accept a ticket in someone elses name... and of course people, friends who've maybe been going to the match for years or maybe have not but of course over the years it's all been allowed to take place with little moderation by the club. Because that was the system.

I'll admit I don't know where I'm going with this but I read senseless shite on here and elsewhere time again having snide digs and often at people who are with the best intentions trying to help sort this mess out. All of the above is a product of the club allowing the ticket situation evolve in the manner it has and now finally with talk of an amnesty it looks like they're ready to consult on solutions and to act going forward to make the whole thing 'fairer' - if you can describe it as that.

In the meantime rather than throwing the boot in people, stakeholders in this wider discussion should be considering how they can contribute some progressive ideas going forward. Pointing the finger at individuals is sad. If you're into that point it at FSG for being complete mingebags. A stadium to cater for demand would solve the whole fucking thing.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

What do you mean?

i think it’s the ‘if klopp wins nothing the next two years bring in Gerrard or alonso’, you know those two guys who’s managerial medal tally is the same as mine

[Ipcress]

Jesus Christ. I despair at some of the stupid FSG sheep on here. Quick there's a scouser with a ticket in someone elses name, get him! The point well made is that thousands and thousands are using tickets in someone elses name each game. Why? Because people have died and the ticket has continued to be renewed over the years (and generations!), the system as it were, once allowed people to have 4 STs in one name or 4 under a company name - these are still in circulation, online - touting agencies and closer to home websites like this one which has alone circulated thousands to all those naughty people who should have a far far far! better moral compass than to accept a ticket in someone elses name... and of course people, friends who've maybe been going to the match for years or maybe have not but of course over the years it's all been allowed to take place with little moderation by the club. Because that was the system.

I'll admit I don't know where I'm going with this but I read senseless shite on here and elsewhere time again having snide digs and often at people who are with the best intentions trying to help sort this mess out. All of the above is a product of the club allowing the ticket situation evolve in the manner it has and now finally with talk of an amnesty it looks like they're ready to consult on solutions and to act going forward to make the whole thing 'fairer' - if you can describe it as that.

In the meantime rather than throwing the boot in people, stakeholders in this wider discussion should be considering how they can contribute some progressive ideas going forward. Pointing the finger at individuals is sad. If you're into that point it at FSG for being complete mingebags. A stadium to cater for demand would solve the whole fucking thing.

Wow. A few questions.

1.What size stadium, at what ticket price, will cater for all?

2.How does an FSG sheep differ from an Anti FSG sheep and what are the grades in between?

3.Regarding the system. I may be mistaken, but isn't the intention that when the person stops using their season ticket that they return it to the club, and then the club offers it to the next person on the waiting list?

This would mean that the ticket J is using should have been offered to the next person in the queue. Instead this supporter is being forced to pay prices to go to the match that J himself admitted he wouldn't pay. Or not going. Now I'm not having a go at him for having the ticket. My problem is that he claims to be standing up for supporters rights while screwing over another red year after year.

4.In what way is my observation snide? How does it compare to criticising a manager for trying to galvanise a crowd to help the team we all claim to support?

By all means criticise me, I just ask that you back up your criticism.

Cheers.

[Ipcress]

I thought so too.  It made a nice ‘other side of the coin’ to the Question Time pod from the day before that drew all the barbs on here.  Listened to together they’d probably make for a well-rounded whole.

A bit like the Club equivalent to the Pink and the Review shows for the match. Or the Chimp versus Non chimp versions to get all vaguely Dr Steven Peters.   

[NotTooXabi12]

What do you mean?

Just read it, it's the most 'yer da' thing you'll ever read. I mean Xabi hasn't ever managed a senior game and he's being touted as Klopps replacement, absolutely embarrassing

[kavah]

The spion kop 1906 lads - brilliant stuff. These lads are the lifeblood and future of the club.

[red_Mark1980]

Just read it, it's the most 'yer da' thing you'll ever read. I mean Xabi hasn't ever managed a senior game and he's being touted as Klopps replacement, absolutely embarrassing

This. Pointing out three players whove moved into managing teams isn't the end of the argument.

Kenny took over a side that Paisley and Fagan had mastered (and was under the arm and eye of Bob)

Taking over Madrid and Barcelona isn't exactly the same is it. The club still needs some way to go and I don't think asking Alonso or Gerrard to sort it out is fair

[LallanaInPyjamas]

This. Pointing out three players whove moved into managing teams isn't the end of the argument.

Kenny took over a side that Paisley and Fagan had mastered (and was under the arm and eye of Bob)

Taking over Madrid and Barcelona isn't exactly the same is it. The club still needs some way to go and I don't think asking Alonso or Gerrard to sort it out is fair

I would say the Gerrard comparison is fair strictly in terms of considering a Klopp successor in 3-5 years. Guardiola and Zidane honed their managerial skills in Barca and Real's reserve sides in the same way Gerrard is currently doing with our U18's. And they proved very successful in doing so, helping them gain legitimacy as first-team managers with the players, board and fans alike at clubs they of course already had a very good standing at, as Gerrard has with us.

I'm not sure why Mike is pushing the Alonso agenda, though. Clever guy, sure, loved the club, sure, but not only does he have zero experience of management yet, he also jumped ship at the first opportunity of moving to a bigger club. Gerrard didn't and I don't see Klopp doing that either. I like having a manager who is committed and not looking at the next move.

[CONFIAMOS]

Wow. A few questions.

1.What size stadium, at what ticket price, will cater for all?

The ins and out for this purpose are irrelevant. The simple fact is a bigger stadium tips the supply and demand scale in the right direction. And the additional 6000 seats that Liverpool insist plans remain for in the Anfield Road end wouldn't half help. We can argue whether a 60+ thousand seater would be full against the likes of Swansea on a Wednesday night until the cows come home, along with a pricing structure but the bottom line is more seats = more people in the ground.

2.How does an FSG sheep differ from an Anti FSG sheep and what are the grades in between?

I've no idea. I'm not in the 'FSG out' camp, not yet anyway. Maybe FSG sheep is the wrong phrase but I am amazed at the people who think they are holier than thou. I'm calling out people who are falling for FSGs mantra that is that season tickets are in the wrong hands. In reality FSG hate season tickets because it's the poorest performing revenue stream of its kind by its very nature. Hence the narrative about the scouse stranglehold that you're stupid enough to fall for.   

3.Regarding the system. I may be mistaken, but isn't the intention that when the person stops using their season ticket that they return it to the club, and then the club offers it to the next person on the waiting list?

Yes. But tell me how that intention has been enforced by the club over the years? Rather, it's been endorsed (being allowed to sign over your ticket to someone else's name) - So rightly or wrongly, the club have facilitated the 'jumping of the queue' by allowing this. And it's no use you blaming the likes of Jay or others because its been going on for generations!   

This would mean that the ticket J is using should have been offered to the next person in the queue. Instead this supporter is being forced to pay prices to go to the match that J himself admitted he wouldn't pay. Or not going. Now I'm not having a go at him for having the ticket. My problem is that he claims to be standing up for supporters rights while screwing over another red year after year.

You are lying when you say you're not having a go at him and your falsifying your claim with the pathetic line 'My problem is that he claims to be standing up for supporters rights while screwing over another red year after year'. You seem extremely out of touch, I don't know you or why this is but you are out of order for going after any individual in this argument. And you won't find any individual involved in this discussion dragging their feet to comply with the club when the detail of this amnesty is agreed. Whilst this discussion isn't about any individual it is worth noting that without people like Jay you'd be looking at a very different football club at this moment in time, top to bottom, ticket prices included.

4.In what way is my observation snide? How does it compare to criticising a manager for trying to galvanise a crowd to help the team we all claim to support?

See above. Don't get the second part of the q. As I said before, the amnesty is a huge job. People need to take the opportunity to voice their opinion constructively as this goes through, so they don't find themselves looking back bitterly in the future.

By all means criticise me, I just ask that you back up your criticism.

Cheers.

[ScottScott]

Your answer to his 2nd question reads like the ramblings of a mental patient lad. FSG hate season ticket holders? The scouse stranglehold? What the fuck are you on about?

You say FSG think tickets are in the wrong hands. They are and I hope this amnesty gets them in the right hands. People who have been dead for years still going the game, people with tens of season tickets selling them on to make a bucket load of money. Get them in the right names and get the waiting list reduced like it should be every year. If you don't want to go or can't go then your ticket goes back and the next fella or woman gets it and it's theirs for as long as they want it. None of this passing it to your mate so he doesn't have to wait on the list. You do this and you're fucking fellow fans over, people who have waited years to get a season ticket

[-HH-]

Hahaha, Talking Reds today absolutely spot on on Firmino-Holgate-gate. Well in Robbo and Paul.

[Millie]

Hahaha, Talking Reds today absolutely spot on on Firmino-Holgate-gate. Well in Robbo and Paul.

They can't have been 

[-HH-]

They can't have been 

[red_Mark1980]

I would say the Gerrard comparison is fair strictly in terms of considering a Klopp successor in 3-5 years. Guardiola and Zidane honed their managerial skills in Barca and Real's reserve sides in the same way Gerrard is currently doing with our U18's. And they proved very successful in doing so, helping them gain legitimacy as first-team managers with the players, board and fans alike at clubs they of course already had a very good standing at, as Gerrard has with us.

I'm not sure why Mike is pushing the Alonso agenda, though. Clever guy, sure, loved the club, sure, but not only does he have zero experience of management yet, he also jumped ship at the first opportunity of moving to a bigger club. Gerrard didn't and I don't see Klopp doing that either. I like having a manager who is committed and not looking at the next move.

We have a good team who haven't won a trophy since 2012

I hardly think ZZ taking over Madrid or pep taking over Barca is the same

[thekitkatshuffler]

Divey Alli... 

[courty61]

We have a good team who haven't won a trophy since 2012

I hardly think ZZ taking over Madrid or pep taking over Barca is the same

Didn't pep and Zz manage their B side 1st in any case?

[CONFIAMOS]

Your answer to his 2nd question reads like the ramblings of a mental patient lad. FSG hate season ticket holders? The scouse stranglehold? What the fuck are you on about?

You say FSG think tickets are in the wrong hands. They are and I hope this amnesty gets them in the right hands. People who have been dead for years still going the game, people with tens of season tickets selling them on to make a bucket load of money. Get them in the right names and get the waiting list reduced like it should be every year. If you don't want to go or can't go then your ticket goes back and the next fella or woman gets it and it's theirs for as long as they want it. None of this passing it to your mate so he doesn't have to wait on the list. You do this and you're fucking fellow fans over, people who have waited years to get a season ticket

I don't disagree with your second paragraph. As I've said, if done properly the amnesty will make it fair for all, something the current and historical process has not.

As for the first para, haha come on have a think. Season tickets holders are not the cash cows that they want. They just aren't. FSG want as many perfect customers as possible, paying members prices, spending in the 'superstore', day tripping etc etc. They wouldn't have STs if they could have it that way! The regulars who are in and out aren't needed any more.

[Byrnee]

Stu Wright on the Fantasy Football show having an epic rant about Neil is fantastic!

I reckon next year you will need a couple of independent adjudicator/s to verify deals to avoid people who don't care being bribed / influenced by someone in contention. That Dave Downie / Atkinson deal is absolutely wild. Next year anyone with any doubts should be able to call in the Dubious Transfers Panel - with the ability to force benching players or reversing deals if possible.
Imagine the extra tactics for everyone.

I don't even play the game but the podcasts are great.

By the way on another note Mo is bloody brilliant as a host and guest.

[PaulSenior]

Atkinson is a terrible cheat, I wouldn’t associate myself with him personally 

Stu Wright on the Fantasy Football show having an epic rant about Neil is fantastic!

I reckon next year you will need a couple of independent adjudicator/s to verify deals to avoid people who don't care being bribed / influenced by someone in contention. That Dave Downie / Atkinson deal is absolutely wild. Next year anyone with any doubts should be able to call in the Dubious Transfers Panel - with the ability to force benching players or reversing deals if possible.
Imagine the extra tactics for everyone.

I don't even play the game but the podcasts are great.

By the way on another note Mo is bloody brilliant as a host and guest.

[conman]

Atkinson is a terrible cheat, I wouldn’t associate myself with him personally 

Bin him to the a Juve podcast,

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

I was really struggling with that Chelsea fan, and now she has just said 'anti-thesis'. LOL

[conman]

I was really struggling with that Chelsea fan, and now she has just said 'anti-thesis'. LOL

It's probably not her real aunt

[Iska]

It was a bit weird to hear Gibbo stumbling over her surname.  I just assume everyone who appears on the Wrap knows each other really well and they all live together in one big house like the Monkees.

[XabiArt]

I assumed she was recently married?

[Byrnee]

Chat with the San Diego reds also a great listen, interesting hearing Americans identifying so deeply with the socialist background of the club. And actually the talk from one of the guys about how the value of Lovren and Karius et al has been increased by Van Dijk - the idea of spreading that £75m across rhe defence is an interesting point I hadn’t really thought about. Plus love Robbo’s war cry at the end 👏👏👏