Author Topic: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table  (Read 19929 times)

Offline Warks Moustache

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #80 on: September 23, 2015, 04:58:54 am »
There's a fundamental disconnect here, one Rodgers needs to resolve to retain his job.

All of what you said isn't wrong, but we created more than enough chances to win the game several times over. You can't legislate for Mignolet making a total hash of a corner and Coutinho missing a goal most schoolboys would score.

Offline cricketrocks

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2015, 05:05:45 am »
All of what you said isn't wrong, but we created more than enough chances to win the game several times over. You can't legislate for Mignolet making a total hash of a corner and Coutinho missing a goal most schoolboys would score.
You can't, but there are intellectuals on here who can. It seems to me that the next few weeks, as Sturridge is integrated and as we move into the heart of the season, are when we should be seeing improvements. If we don't, with most of the squad available, then pressure is fair will be inevitable.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 05:45:07 am by cricketrocks »

Offline sempi

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #82 on: September 23, 2015, 06:00:31 am »
The problem with having a round table for this game is that it is very difficult to look at this without taking everything else into account.

The main problem is that we are still struggling to create an identity for ourselves which really shouldn't be the case coming into a 4th season even with all the new players. Was this match an attempt to implement the correct identity and strategy? If so, then the result is acceptable as long as things improve in the coming matches.

The problem was also there at Bordeaux, individually the defenders did well but collectively we seems to be cut open too easily. That stems from midfield and we are showing weakness esp without Hendo. In some ways it would be better to leave Can in midfield and let him grow into the role than put him back as a CB and try to fix the midfield. Being a little bit more open will probably help us against the lower teams though.

Sometimes the one thing you really need is composure and we lacked it at both ends of the pitch, apart from Ings' goal. So many chances were wasted simply because we rushed into the wrong decision - the wrong layoff, shooting when passing was the better option and vice versa. Suarez did the same for 18 months - he scored great goals but missed easy chances, hitting the woodwork when he should score etc. Once he gained that composure inside the penalty box, there was no stopping him.

Coutinho is at that stage when he can score great goals but not much else (in terms of scoring). We shouldn't be putting all the pressure on him to win us games on his own - hopefully the movement of Sturridge, Ings and Benteke will allow him to put more of those passes in.
Can is not a defender, I think BR is desperate to even try to shoehorn him. 3 at the back has been found out, he needs to try  something different, 4 4 11 or something. 

Offline cricketrocks

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #83 on: September 23, 2015, 06:06:18 am »
Can is not a defender, I think BR is desperate to even try to shoehorn him. 3 at the back has been found out, he needs to try  something different, 4 4 11 or something.
Quick, tell Guardiola!

Offline spider-neil

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #84 on: September 23, 2015, 08:03:33 am »
I think there are two things at odds with each other;

1. We look very composed bringing the ball out from the back with Can and Sakho in the back line.
We seem to create far more chances and players seem far more comfortable in their positions.

but

2. We seem a player light in attack.

It's hard to tell whether the 3 at the back will remain but in my humble opinion we need to be squeezing one of Lallana or Firmino into the team.
In an ideal world you would have two strikers, one 'number 10' (Lallana or Firmino), one 'number 8 (Coutinho) to create chances.
I think a long term solution would be partnering Gomez (I would say Can but that isn't going to happen even long term) with Sakho in a 4-4-2 and then make a straight choice between Lucas and Milner as the partner for Henderson. Then you get the best of all worlds.

1. You get the calmness out of defence and the ability to defend high up the pitch.

2. You have the energy and pressing of Henderson and Milner.

3. You get Coutinho pulling the strings in midfield without the heavy burden of scoring goals.

4. You Lallana or Firmino behind the strikers both of whom have a much better scoring record than Coutinho.

5. You get two strikers up front.

I feel with 3 at the back you are more solid and better at brining the ball out but you lose an attacker, unless Rodgers wants to drop one of Henderson or Milner.

Back to the match;
1. I thought Moreno was excellent and revelled in the wingback position.
2. I thought Clyne was subdued in the new position which may have been down to unfamiliarity rather than not being suited to a wing back.
3. I thought Sakho was excellent and what we have been missing from the back line but it was he initial brain fart that led to the corner that resulted in us conceding.
4. Mignolet is a great shot stopper but weak in pretty much every other area.
5. Milner had his worst game in a Liverpool shirt and needs to be taken of corners and set pieces.
6. Coutinho was poor all game and not just the shocking miss.
7. Sturridge looks sharp despite the lengthy lay off and his movement was fantastic.
8. Ings was Suarezesque in his pressing and determination and his goal was extremely well taken.
9. Lallana and Firmino did well when they came on and linked up with the attack really well.

I was pleased with the chances we created but bitterly disappointed with the result. I don't get the 'we were shite' crowd. We weren't shite, unless you think missing a host of clear cut chances makes you shite in which case we were shite. A lot of positives to be taken out of the game but the people who are desperate to get rid of Rodgers wont see the positives only the result.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 08:13:04 am by spider-neil »

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #85 on: September 23, 2015, 10:24:23 am »
Apologies to Hinesey as it's not strictly on Round Table topic but let's be honest all roads currently lead to one subject - the manager's suitability or otherwise - and I just want to get a perspective which I feel to be relevant tossed into the equation.

 :)

And so I say this - Am I fucking missing something in respect of comments such as the following?

Text from Rob Guttman on TAW Facebook site:

Things to cling to, but the manager is no longer one of them. I'd like to see the owners show decisive leadership and not repeat the Hodgson fiasco. There's a salvageable season here. Be bold, be fair, be kind to a lost leader too, but most of all let us at least have Anfield and some hope back.

So far he's had three shit seasons and one good one where we didn't actually win anything.

I believe the good season was a blip and more to do with suarez having the season of his career.

Things will carry on as they are unless we find another suarez (not likely) or change the manager.


plus his first season was awful with not qualifying for Europe and no cup run....It's inevitable he'll have to go because he's done a downright shocking job for the last 16 months now and completely lost his way/lost the plot.

? ? ? ? ?

 :o

Anyroad, here's how I'd summarise Rodgers three seasons to date.

Season 1 – August to Christmas. Essentially feeling his way, experimenting. Pretty mediocre stuff from him and the team. Not that good. Not that bad -  which I guess is what you'd expect as a new manager. From Christmas to May – very probably the best team in the league. The injection of Coutinho and Sturridge took us to a level arguably for that period above every other club in the league. In fact if the league had run from January to May I believe the stats tell us we'd have been champions for that period.

Season 2 - Probably the best team in the league with the amazing attacking quartet of Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling and Coutinho with Gerrard a fine quarterback serving up football that ranks as arguably our most exhilarating ever [and I go back to Division two] - even in the games when Suarez was absent. Denied the league title by what I can only term unbelievably cruel turns of misfortune which we're never likely ever to see again [Gerrard's Chelsea slip and the unfeasible Crystal Palace recovery]

Season 3 – the season of THE TEAM WITH NO ATTACK - an utter clusterfuck which I’m sure any reasonably intelligent football person would agree was a direct consequence of Brendan's/the club's rank negligence in failing to bring in like-for-like replacements for the departing Suarez and injury prone Sturridge [albeit nobody they could have procured  could ever be quite as good as the two vital missing ingredients - but imagine how much better we'd have been for that entire season with a Danny Ings or some of those other equivalent Premiership buys other clubs made up front]. The season was partially salvaged in the middle due to a surge in form driven by Sterling deployed as central pacy/mobile attacker fed by Coutinho only to plummet as those two players ran out of steam by March and the entire season fell apart as we all know only too well.

Season 4 - six games in we have played mostly shite other than 45 minutes at the Emirates. But there have been some slightly brighter passages of play in the last two games - perhaps performance and certainly results wise nowhere near the level we crave but who knows whether or not they may be portents of what could lie ahead dragged forward by an Ings/Sturridge/Coutinho frontal assault.

CONCLUSION - I'll just pose a question rather than affirm any real view one way or the other [although it's pretty clear I'm very firmly in the camp of why the fucking desperation to replace the manager? Or why else would I be posting this?  :)].

Anyroad - the question.

How do we equate the seemingly desperate need of some to replace the manager with the above record which is mixed but certainly not without its extremely positive aspects?

Granted during the period he's been here the fellow has had his share of fuck ups both in terms of transfers, tactics, selections etc etc. Also things have certainly deteriorated this past six months. But against the first aspect all people including managers do fuck up from time to time and against the ongoing deterioration it is inarguable that for the entirety of last season and even now we are still suffering the adverse effect of vital player departures/injuries and Rodgers/the club's negligence in failing to adequately replace them – something which might just be about to change as the fast pacy mobile penny [namely the inclusion of a forwards such as Danny Ings] may just have dropped.


Offline gandalf50

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #86 on: September 23, 2015, 11:03:40 am »
Apologies to Hinesey as it's not strictly on Round Table topic but let's be honest all roads currently lead to one subject - the manager's suitability or otherwise - and I just want to get a perspective which I feel to be relevant tossed into the equation.

 :)

And so I say this - Am I fucking missing something in respect of comments such as the following?

? ? ? ? ?

 :o

Anyroad, here's how I'd summarise Rodgers three seasons to date.

Season 1 – August to Christmas. Essentially feeling his way, experimenting. Pretty mediocre stuff from him and the team. Not that good. Not that bad -  which I guess is what you'd expect as a new manager. From Christmas to May – very probably the best team in the league. The injection of Coutinho and Sturridge took us to a level arguably for that period above every other club in the league. In fact if the league had run from January to May I believe the stats tell us we'd have been champions for that period.

Season 2 - Probably the best team in the league with the amazing attacking quartet of Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling and Coutinho with Gerrard a fine quarterback serving up football that ranks as arguably our most exhilarating ever [and I go back to Division two] - even in the games when Suarez was absent. Denied the league title by what I can only term unbelievably cruel turns of misfortune which we're never likely ever to see again [Gerrard's Chelsea slip and the unfeasible Crystal Palace recovery]

Season 3 – the season of THE TEAM WITH NO ATTACK - an utter clusterfuck which I’m sure any reasonably intelligent football person would agree was a direct consequence of Brendan's/the club's rank negligence in failing to bring in like-for-like replacements for the departing Suarez and injury prone Sturridge [albeit nobody they could have procured  could ever be quite as good as the two vital missing ingredients - but imagine how much better we'd have been for that entire season with a Danny Ings or some of those other equivalent Premiership buys other clubs made up front]. The season was partially salvaged in the middle due to a surge in form driven by Sterling deployed as central pacy/mobile attacker fed by Coutinho only to plummet as those two players ran out of steam by March and the entire season fell apart as we all know only too well.

Season 4 - six games in we have played mostly shite other than 45 minutes at the Emirates. But there have been some slightly brighter passages of play in the last two games - perhaps performance and certainly results wise nowhere near the level we crave but who knows whether or not they may be portents of what could lie ahead dragged forward by an Ings/Sturridge/Coutinho frontal assault.

CONCLUSION - I'll just pose a question rather than affirm any real view one way or the other [although it's pretty clear I'm very firmly in the camp of why the fucking desperation to replace the manager? Or why else would I be posting this?  :)].

Anyroad - the question.

How do we equate the seemingly desperate need of some to replace the manager with the above record which is mixed but certainly not without its extremely positive aspects?

Granted during the period he's been here the fellow has had his share of fuck ups both in terms of transfers, tactics, selections etc etc. Also things have certainly deteriorated this past six months. But against the first aspect all people including managers do fuck up from time to time and against the ongoing deterioration it is inarguable that for the entirety of last season and even now we are still suffering the adverse effect of vital player departures/injuries and Rodgers/the club's negligence in failing to adequately replace them – something which might just be about to change as the fast pacy mobile penny [namely the inclusion of a forwards such as Danny Ings] may just have dropped.


What you state about the Chelsea and Palace results are so wrong. Yes the slip was a horrible moment of lapsed concentration. But we tried to blitz a team who defend like they were born to it. We needed one point from that game to keep the title in our hands and we blew it spectacularly. He knew the pressure Chelsea were under with the Madrid games either side. He could have set the team up like he did at Norwich where they were forced to come out and Suarez picked them off. Instead he sent the players out to hit them like a battering ram with no intelligence whatsoever. We didn`t even get in behind them until the last 10 minutes of the game when it was too late anyway. one bit of clear thinking and composure from the manager that week and the league was ours. The Palace fiasco, even with Pulis managing them, would never have happened if things had gone right in the previous game.
He could have followed that season with 3 or 4 mediocre seasons to build his team without any pressure. Especially if he still lost Suarez. Yes fans would moan. But the supporters would know they had a manager capable of league titles and that would be all that mattered.

In your last point. Do you really think he is going to drop his top signing of the summer for a front line of Ings and Sturridge?

Another point about the start of this season is we have the toughest first four months of almost any team in the league. But again he seems to have ignored that and still gone with the slow fitness build up to have the players peaking in the second half of the season. But if this team goes to places like Everton, Spurs, Chelsea and City and come away with nothing. What sort of a mental state will they be in?
There really isn't.  I think a lot of us, even our own have started doubting it. It's time to rise up. And take what is rightfully ours. It's a big mountain, but what is the point in achieving something, which everyone can?

Fate has given us a mountain too big. We have to rise. We have to believe.

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Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #87 on: September 23, 2015, 11:06:44 am »
So, I was sat in the stand to watch this one. I think when you are there watching it there, it becomes clearer why the crowd are angry, angrier than those watching on TV anyway. On the TV you just don't get the full sense of aimlessness that pervades the team at times. But I digress, let me start at the start before I focus on one key area, 3-4-3.

I arrived early and the crowd was excited, 30 minutes before a game. The reason? Namely the first team looked a total departure from the last few weeks and the better for it. Lovren was gone, Moreno and Sahko were in and, most importantly, Sturridge was back!

"Great!" I said, to the attractive (and nonplussed) Chinese girl beside me "433 is back!". She didn't understand. It must have been the Irish accent. 5 minutes in and I didn't understand either. Emre Can's designated role in the game was to stand beside Skrtel and do 5 yard shuttle runs back and forward, while the game played out beside him, like a man playing bulldog in the middle of a barn dance. It was inexplicable, his involvement in the first 45 minutes non-existent. Meanwhile the midfield were a holy show.

Milner picked up a yellow card for his first tackle and played horribly for the rest of the game. Lucas has definitely lost a yard of pace, but at least was disciplined and tackled (unlike Milner who seemed to want to use Brownian motion to decide where best to go). But this was the creative hub, the heartbeat of the team! Uninspiring is a generous description. In turn they were flanked by a two fullbacks, one who gets forward well, but perhaps is a little defensively naive, the other offensively predictable but defensively solid. But these are wingbacks at best, not the sides of a midfiel diamond. Consider that for a moment, our midfield 4 were 2 FBs, a crocked DM and a winger masquerading as a CM. Milner, with the best will in the world, will never be more than a runner in the middle and at 29/30, its late int eh day to be learning his game there.

Up front Benteke was used as a lightning rod but that's not his game. It's also not Liverpool's game. It was ugly. I thought Sturridge did well for a player just back, but it will take a 5-6 games before he is even back to par. The first half was a write off, in which playing 343 did the team and the midfield in particular a massive disservice.

The second half actually started badly, but the goal was a sweet one, coming out of the blue to be honest. Ings made a very good run and his performance that game was encouraging, he certainly brings bite to the game. But my assessment is that he is a very straightforward player with little imagination, effective against Norwich, but might get lost against the bigger sides. However, I have a lot of time for players like him, the Kuyts, the Bellamy's of the game and I was very pleased at his hunger and desire. I was deadset against him signing, but now think he might actually be a very astute acquisition.

It was after the goal everything went wrong, you could feel the nerves set in as Liverpool crept back, the equalizer almost felt inevitable. After that Liverpool stepped it up and wasted a few good chances, but you felt that Norwich had settled at that point and were happy to play the game out. It was the collective failure of confidence in the five minutes before the Mignolet flap that cost the points, not the individual error itself.

So those were my thoughts on the game as I saw it from the stand. The positives were Moreno, Sahko (MotM), Ings and Firmino, all who played well. The negatives were Milner (and this might be harsh) Lallana, who did nothing after coming on. The big problem though was 343.

343 says one thing to me... "I don't trust one of the CBs". So why play them? 343 as Liverpool play it is actually 523 in terms of personnel (with one of the 2 continuously running over to the wing!). The midfield is a shapeless mess. It also negates the true strength of Benteke (the warm-up before the game was hilarious, powder puff shots followed by bullet headers) since everything is narrow. Liverpool were better after halftime simply because Ings ran in behind Norwich time and time again. Quite simply, from the first to the last minute Liverpool were set up wrong with players in unsuitable roles - that is the manager's fault.

For example, Moreno has the name of a bad defender... but he is only as good as the Cb beside him. That, until the weekend, was Lovren, who is barely competent at his best (we praise the games when he doesn't make a mistake, that's the level he is judged at). Meanwhile Sahko is beasting his man, winning 1-on-1s, finding feet with sharp passes (he does have a horrible running style though)... how could anyone look at that and think Lovren is more capable? It was out of a need to protect Lovren and Skrtel Rodger's came up with 3-52 which then became 343... as soon as the novelty wore off and teams (united) figured out how to undo it it became redundant. Yet, when the chips are down Rodger's goes back to it like a small child with a security blanket. I cannot understand it. 1 man up front and we end up with 3 CBs marking him while the midfield is pulled apart. Even the goal comes about because the backline lines up to defend the corner, but the second ball (the midfielders job) is lost. That's how all our goals are conceded now, not first phase, but second ball when the lack of midfielders give the opposition a chance to pop shots in from the edge of our box while 5 defenders stand in a  line in front of them.

So, 343, lost Liverpool 2 points on Sunday. It might have its uses in difficult games away, but the game on Sunday was done a massive disservice not by player selection but deployment into that formation.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 11:10:38 am by DonkeyWan »
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Offline ShayGuevara

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #88 on: September 23, 2015, 11:22:39 am »
I will flip the question around then Shay. What is Rodgers vision of how we should play? Most importantly - are we seeing it?

I think Rodgers does have a clear vision of how we should play. He has talked about it at length. Many top football writers including the likes of Paul Tomkins have written articles about it recently. Importantly though - we are not seeing it at the moment. We are seeing almost the polar opposite of what his vision is. There is a fantastic article about it on the Tomkins Times site from one of their writers which opens with

That pretty much nails it for me. Hopefully the Norwich game was the first step away from what we have seen so far this season which has been selections, a system and a style of football that is suffocating us.

Likewise, I´ll add properly to what Garception and others said tomorrow as it´s early am here.

"Death by football" was ditched by Rodgers by the end of his first season. He seen what Dortmund did that season and then the improvement in Heynckes Bayern when he replicated the same type of system.

Pressing has become more important than possession to Rodgers and having a midifeld that presses aggresively is now how he wants us to dominate games. I've just been reading an article on total distances ran in the Premier League and James Milner tops the list by a considerable distance. Had Henderson or Can partnered him in each game I'm sure they would of been close also. Rodgers wants our CM's to be our engine who dominate the midfield through their work rate and pressing and that then frees up our attacking players. Here's a video of how he has us pressing, note Coutinho is marked as AM and Henderson as CM but off the ball it was Coutinho CM (Can now occupies) , Henderson DM which Lucas now occupies.

Below is a video which highlights that pressure and what each positions role is.

<a href="http://youtu.be/qFvfejBfYZ4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://youtu.be/qFvfejBfYZ4</a>

In each game how high our press has been has varied, in some games we've played quite deep but it's always been similar in what each players role was.

The difference in each game this season was how we attacked. In some games we've went long to Benteke to beat the opponents press and let the ball do the work rather than the players. It was more similar to Simeone's Atletico than Klopps Dortmund. That change likely down to our lack of fitness and Rodgers preference to grind out results early days until we can play that high pressure, high tempo football effectively.

As the season goes on and I have no doubts about it we'll see football closer to the 13/14 season in attack. We might not have Suarez working his magic but the attacking features of our game will be similar and I think we seen that against Norwich we just failed to capitalise.

The big difference between the 13/14 season though will be our defensive organisation and pressing which with the high energy, athletic CM's (Can,Milner,Henderson) and full backs  (Clyne, Moreno) along with a "controller" who can cover ground better than Gerrard (Allen, Lucas) we'll see an improvement in how we control games through pressing.

Here's a video on some of our attacking traits from the same coach:

<a href="http://youtu.be/OPgr1h11vso" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://youtu.be/OPgr1h11vso</a>

It highlights our CM's making runs beyond the front man and the movement to create space.

If you look at any Coutinho, Firmino or Lallana compilation you will see that when they recieve the ball to feet and the first thing they do is turn and look for space in front. It's very direct, likely inspired by Suarez.

People are complaining about Milner but with Rodgers we need to realise our CM's are now our engine. Ideally we'd have a Pogba and Matuidi midfield who can offer similar work rate but also are top top players technically. In Can, Henderson and Milner we do have the hardest working midfield in the league and we can stop sides from playing football.

What we'll see because of that is sides playing on the counter against us more and more. 3 at the back against Norwich is our most effective formation when sides play this way as there seems to be flaws in our 4 at the back system under counter attacks. Our full backs not balanced enough or DM not covering effectively I'm not quite sure.

Which formation we see more of is hard to say, it may depend on opponent. The system and how we press in an attempt to dominate the ball is key though and we won't be straying from that. The signings we've made over the last two years highlight that, all signed with work rate and energy as key attributes. Very much the German model rather than the Dutch/Spanish originally mentioned by Rodgers.
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Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #89 on: September 23, 2015, 12:33:36 pm »
Any chance you can link those videos?  They don't show up for me.

Offline ShayGuevara

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #90 on: September 23, 2015, 12:37:31 pm »
Any chance you can link those videos?  They don't show up for me.

http://youtu.be/OPgr1h11vso

http://youtu.be/qFvfejBfYZ4

Do they work now?
"The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It's the way I see football, the way I see life" Bill Shankly

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #91 on: September 23, 2015, 12:38:23 pm »
http://youtu.be/OPgr1h11vso

http://youtu.be/qFvfejBfYZ4

Do they work now?

They don't show up in your post for me but I can watch them through the link. 

Cheers

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #92 on: September 23, 2015, 01:47:24 pm »
What you state about the Chelsea and Palace results are so wrong. Yes the slip was a horrible moment of lapsed concentration. But we tried to blitz a team who defend like they were born to it. We needed one point from that game to keep the title in our hands and we blew it spectacularly. He knew the pressure Chelsea were under with the Madrid games either side. He could have set the team up like he did at Norwich where they were forced to come out and Suarez picked them off. Instead he sent the players out to hit them like a battering ram with no intelligence whatsoever. We didn`t even get in behind them until the last 10 minutes of the game when it was too late anyway. one bit of clear thinking and composure from the manager that week and the league was ours. The Palace fiasco, even with Pulis managing them, would never have happened if things had gone right in the previous game.
He could have followed that season with 3 or 4 mediocre seasons to build his team without any pressure. Especially if he still lost Suarez. Yes fans would moan. But the supporters would know they had a manager capable of league titles and that would be all that mattered.

In your last point. Do you really think he is going to drop his top signing of the summer for a front line of Ings and Sturridge?

Another point about the start of this season is we have the toughest first four months of almost any team in the league. But again he seems to have ignored that and still gone with the slow fitness build up to have the players peaking in the second half of the season. But if this team goes to places like Everton, Spurs, Chelsea and City and come away with nothing. What sort of a mental state will they be in?


Sorry mate. All's I get from reading your response are the words of somebody with an agenda against Rodgers who seeks to cherry pick anything that seems to suit that agenda and discredit the fella. Can't take that seriously I'm afraid. The fella managed a team that almost won us the league. The nearest we've come since god knows when playing the most exhilarating football since god knows when.

Offline redmark

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #93 on: September 23, 2015, 01:51:44 pm »
What we'll see because of that is sides playing on the counter against us more and more. 3 at the back against Norwich is our most effective formation when sides play this way as there seems to be flaws in our 4 at the back system under counter attacks. Our full backs not balanced enough or DM not covering effectively I'm not quite sure.

There's a significant problem with this, if the switch to back three plus defensive minded central midfielder(s) is to guard against the counter attack: they don't actually produce many goals. According to whoscored's definition of a counter-attacking goal, there were slightly fewer PL goals scored from counter attacks over the last couple of seasons than from penalties; and only slightly more than from own goals. Unless they're all conceded by us, it's a relatively minor source of goals to obsess over. Even for us, they were a minor source of goals in 2013/14, which has become inaccurately defined, I think, as an all-out counter attacking blitz lasting several months (infact, I commented on the prozone video on the subject in discussion last season; it actually showed that even during that spell, we counter attacked significantly less than we had done most of the time under Rafa).




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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #94 on: September 23, 2015, 02:52:29 pm »
Sorry mate. All's I get from reading your response are the words of somebody with an agenda against Rodgers who seeks to cherry pick anything that seems to suit that agenda and discredit the fella. Can't take that seriously I'm afraid. The fella managed a team that almost won us the league. The nearest we've come since god knows when playing the most exhilarating football since god knows when.

Its the re-writing of the Chelsea game that absolutely gets on my tits every time- like the post you are responding to Timbo. All we needed was this, all we needed was that- isn't hindsight a wonderful thing. We didn't try to 'blitz' Chelsea at all during the game- compared to most other matches in the barely believable run of results we were relatively conservative and controlling. A mistake that can happen and we are then chasing the game- a mistake that could happen if we played for the point so many seem to think would have been a given. These people who before that season wouldn't have given us a cat in hell's chance of winning the league seemed to think we should have won every game at the end, or that it was nothing to do with the manager, or it was all Suarez, and so on and so on.

Anyway, on to the Norwich game.

I thought that whilst the three at the back provided better comfort against Norwich's limited counter attacks, it left us with a spare men in the most useless part of pitch for long periods of the game. Neither Can or Sakho could venture too high up the pitch to support the midfield, both due to the aforementioned need to protect against counters (probably team instructions) and also the depth of our defensive line. I think so many of our problems would be solved by pushing our defense up 10 yards and the midfield another 5 yards to compress the space and provide more support and passing options, it would also help us proactively try to stop counters at source rather than back off and protect near our penalty area. Whether we have the defensive personnel to to press and play high (Skrtel is the obvious player this would not suit) is another question.

I thought we created, for the first time in a while, clear cut chances and plenty of half chances that with more luck could have resulted in far more goals. Hopefully with more confidence (preferably on the back of a few good wins) we put these away- I think the players as well as the manager are feeling the pressure at the moment. You look at the Sturridge chance, Milner and Lallana with shots from the edge of the box, the Milner Benteke one two that almost came off, Firmino's shot from a tight angle, the Ings chance going round the keeper, plus the Coutinho chance that shall not be mentioned. That's a positive to take away, but then you ask do we have the weight of numbers in attack to make this count. How do we change the 7-3 defensive split (Benteke, Sturridge and Coutinho as the goalscorers)  into a 6-4 or even further? Do we drop Coutinho/ Lallana into one of the centre midfield positions, try to get Firmino in and drop Coutinho deeper or play Ibe at wingback? It doesn't seem to work in any way- I can't see balance with the squad playing 3-5-2, and it will only work in a 3-4-3 if you play 3 out and out forwards and still a winger at full back or an attacking centre mid.

I thought that Ings was a huge positive, Moreno provide good balance with width and intelligent crossing and Sakho played very well for his first game back. There was quite a lot better than the last few games (that could be something to do with the strength of the opposition) but it is meaningless without a result after the past few games.

Offline Not A Scouser

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #95 on: September 23, 2015, 03:22:07 pm »
In the game they created one chance worth anything from open play and scored from a scramble in the box.  In pretty much every premier league game the opposition is going to get a couple of chances to score.

At the other end we had two one-on-one's with the goalkeeper, scoring only once and five other shots on target.  Basically we created three times the amount of opportunities they did, and better ones too.  Normally a game like this would end 3-1 to Liverpool (i.e. if you played 100 games with the same stats the most common result would be 3-1).  if Coutinho had scored this game would have been hailed as progress (although one frighteningly based on Rodgers adopting a line-up and formation that many fans have been calling for for months).  I think it was progress.

A manager's job is to organize the team in order to maximize the chances of winning the game.  Devise a system in which the other team gets few chances, bad chances, chances for their players fall to players who convert chances less often.  If before the game you had been told that Liverpool would get 60% of the possession, create three times as many chances, including two breakaways would you have taken that?

For me, in the same way that the Stoke and Bournemouth wins were games we snuck a win when we deserved a draw, this was a game where we got a draw when we deserved a win.  The team looked more fluid, was clearly more attacking, and chances were created.  This was far from a great performance, Milner in particular was horrible with the ball, and the team has an unpleasant feeling of nervousness about it (BTW, Anfield sounded like a morgue.)

This has undoubtedly been a poor start to the season, but it is very far from the disastrous one that people think.  The point differentials to our rivals are Southampton (+2), Tottenham (-1), Arsenal -2), Man Utd (-5), Chelsea (+1), Man City (-7).  The title is gone, but barring something astonishing that was always going to be the case.  Two wins on the trot and we will be pretty much where we thought we would be, fighting for fourth. Aston Villa and Everton up next....

Anyone who thought rationally at the beginning of the season thought we would start slowly, under Rodgers' fitness regime that's what happens, without our best player (Sturridge changed the way the whole team looked), with a difficult set of fixtures, that was to be expected.  Every year the team picks up around Christmas.  If we are this close to our rivals going in to the Christmas fixtures I will be very pleased.

Still, it's disappointing when the fans are picking better teams than the manager (Sakho, Lucas, diamond/343 (the formation was a weird hybrid of those two)and the team looks bereft of ideas, which it did UNTIL THIS GAME.  I am disappointed by the result but not the performance, which while being some distance from great was a marked improvement.


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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #96 on: September 23, 2015, 03:22:59 pm »
Its the re-writing of the Chelsea game that absolutely gets on my tits every time- like the post you are responding to Timbo. All we needed was this, all we needed was that- isn't hindsight a wonderful thing. We didn't try to 'blitz' Chelsea at all during the game- compared to most other matches in the barely believable run of results we were relatively conservative and controlling. A mistake that can happen and we are then chasing the game- a mistake that could happen if we played for the point so many seem to think would have been a given. These people who before that season wouldn't have given us a cat in hell's chance of winning the league seemed to think we should have won every game at the end, or that it was nothing to do with the manager, or it was all Suarez, and so on and so on.

Anyway, on to the Norwich game.

I thought that whilst the three at the back provided better comfort against Norwich's limited counter attacks, it left us with a spare men in the most useless part of pitch for long periods of the game. Neither Can or Sakho could venture too high up the pitch to support the midfield, both due to the aforementioned need to protect against counters (probably team instructions) and also the depth of our defensive line. I think so many of our problems would be solved by pushing our defense up 10 yards and the midfield another 5 yards to compress the space and provide more support and passing options, it would also help us proactively try to stop counters at source rather than back off and protect near our penalty area. Whether we have the defensive personnel to to press and play high (Skrtel is the obvious player this would not suit) is another question.

I thought we created, for the first time in a while, clear cut chances and plenty of half chances that with more luck could have resulted in far more goals. Hopefully with more confidence (preferably on the back of a few good wins) we put these away- I think the players as well as the manager are feeling the pressure at the moment. You look at the Sturridge chance, Milner and Lallana with shots from the edge of the box, the Milner Benteke one two that almost came off, Firmino's shot from a tight angle, the Ings chance going round the keeper, plus the Coutinho chance that shall not be mentioned. That's a positive to take away, but then you ask do we have the weight of numbers in attack to make this count. How do we change the 7-3 defensive split (Benteke, Sturridge and Coutinho as the goalscorers)  into a 6-4 or even further? Do we drop Coutinho/ Lallana into one of the centre midfield positions, try to get Firmino in and drop Coutinho deeper or play Ibe at wingback? It doesn't seem to work in any way- I can't see balance with the squad playing 3-5-2, and it will only work in a 3-4-3 if you play 3 out and out forwards and still a winger at full back or an attacking centre mid.

I thought that Ings was a huge positive, Moreno provide good balance with width and intelligent crossing and Sakho played very well for his first game back. There was quite a lot better than the last few games (that could be something to do with the strength of the opposition) but it is meaningless without a result after the past few games.

No disrespect to any of the previous posters but for a complete thicko like me how refreshing it is to read a post where someone is talking in a language I can understand.

Some great points there.

 ;D

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #97 on: September 23, 2015, 03:26:10 pm »
In the game they created one chance worth anything from open play and scored from a scramble in the box.  In pretty much every premier league game the opposition is going to get a couple of chances to score.

At the other end we had two one-on-one's with the goalkeeper, scoring only once and five other shots on target.  Basically we created three times the amount of opportunities they did, and better ones too.  Normally a game like this would end 3-1 to Liverpool (i.e. if you played 100 games with the same stats the most common result would be 3-1).  if Coutinho had scored this game would have been hailed as progress (although one frighteningly based on Rodgers adopting a line-up and formation that many fans have been calling for for months).  I think it was progress.

A manager's job is to organize the team in order to maximize the chances of winning the game.  Devise a system in which the other team gets few chances, bad chances, chances for their players fall to players who convert chances less often.  If before the game you had been told that Liverpool would get 60% of the possession, create three times as many chances, including two breakaways would you have taken that?

For me, in the same way that the Stoke and Bournemouth wins were games we snuck a win when we deserved a draw, this was a game where we got a draw when we deserved a win.  The team looked more fluid, was clearly more attacking, and chances were created.  This was far from a great performance, Milner in particular was horrible with the ball, and the team has an unpleasant feeling of nervousness about it (BTW, Anfield sounded like a morgue.)

This has undoubtedly been a poor start to the season, but it is very far from the disastrous one that people think.  The point differentials to our rivals are Southampton (+2), Tottenham (-1), Arsenal -2), Man Utd (-5), Chelsea (+1), Man City (-7).  The title is gone, but barring something astonishing that was always going to be the case.  Two wins on the trot and we will be pretty much where we thought we would be, fighting for fourth. Aston Villa and Everton up next....

Anyone who thought rationally at the beginning of the season thought we would start slowly, under Rodgers' fitness regime that's what happens, without our best player (Sturridge changed the way the whole team looked), with a difficult set of fixtures, that was to be expected.  Every year the team picks up around Christmas.  If we are this close to our rivals going in to the Christmas fixtures I will be very pleased.

Still, it's disappointing when the fans are picking better teams than the manager (Sakho, Lucas, diamond/343 (the formation was a weird hybrid of those two)and the team looks bereft of ideas, which it did UNTIL THIS GAME.  I am disappointed by the result but not the performance, which while being some distance from great was a marked improvement.



Wow - two posts on the trot I can identify with. Yippee.

 ;D

Offline Cork Red

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #98 on: September 23, 2015, 03:30:26 pm »

How do we equate the seemingly desperate need of some to replace the manager with the above record which is mixed but certainly not without its extremely positive aspects?


I think it is because while the highs under Brendan have been dizzily high, the lows have been depressingly low.

Brendan Rodgers should be given the credit he is due for the football that we played between January 2013 and March 2014.  It's certainly the best attacking football I've seen played at Anfield since the late 1980's.

For me, however, the drop off in the levels of performance since then have been unacceptable, even allowing for the high profile departures that we've had.  Barring a very good run between late Dec 2014 and early March 2015, our performance levels over the last year haven't been much above relegation standard.  The players look confused and unmotivated and we've been tactically outsmarted by some pretty mediocre managers.

If we'd finished 5th last season, but gone down fighting, I could have accepted it.  But our post March implosion, when our main rivals for the last champions league places were also floundering, contained some of the worst football I've seen Liverpool play in the last 25 years; comparable with the worst of the Souness and Hodgson eras in awfulness.

With such a dreadful finish, it was vitally important that we shot out of the blocks this season to restore faith and we just haven't done that.

I really genuinely hope Brendan can turn things around, not least because a change of manager is not a panacea for all the ills at the club that some seem to think it is.  Without broader changes to the recruitment set-up at the club, changing the manager would not yield the long term benefits that many expect.

The next 4 games are vital.  We should be capable of beating each of our next 3 opponents comfortably at home, but the derby at Goodison is the big one.  With the atmosphere around the club as nasty as it is at the moment, I don't think Brendan could survive a defeat in that game.

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #99 on: September 23, 2015, 03:30:34 pm »
Wow - two posts on the trot I can identify with. Yippee.

 ;D
Personally thought the Aliens post is probably one of the most honest, balanced and not loaded - on a game, I've seen in here all season.


Well done.
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Offline CHOPPER

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #100 on: September 23, 2015, 04:02:57 pm »
Sorry if I'm being thick, but which one is that Chopper. Good to see some balanced stuff in here. I'm not sure about Rodgers, it's hard to know where the problems are coming from but there's a decent team in there somewhere but think it's madness to be talking manager change so few games into the season
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Offline ThePoolMan

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #101 on: September 23, 2015, 04:12:49 pm »
There are still serious problems with the team. Rodgers shows little signs of overcoming them yet. We are scrabbling for straws of positivity.


Meanwhile There is a world class manager who evidently admires liverpool and who is currently out of a job on a sabbatical - one who has won the CL multiple times and who was actualy managing the team that opposed us in two successive CL finals!

There is also another younger manager who has achieved amazing results with comparatively little and who was originally the manager FSG wanted to hire in the first place before they appointed the unproven Rodgers.

Can the club really afford to give Rodgers more time beyond the end of this year in the light of the availability of such candidates?

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #102 on: September 23, 2015, 05:07:42 pm »
Sorry mate not on the ball today. Agree it's a measured post. Bottom line I think the fanbase are panicking but agree it's worrying when the fans can see the merits of things like Sahko playing, one of our few defenders who can play out the back comfortably and yet the manager appears behind us lot but at times you get a glimpse of a half decent team and for me a change now would be hasty

Is it at all possible Sakho was frozen out to test his mentality before offering him a new high earning contract like Barret suggested a month or so ago? Moreno and Markovic I would argue have been dealt with similarly.

Sakhos performances against Norwich was as good as he's ever played in a red shirt I thought he was excellent.
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Offline lgvkarlos

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #103 on: September 23, 2015, 05:53:44 pm »
Is it at all possible Sakho was frozen out to test his mentality before offering him a new high earning contract like Barret suggested a month or so ago? Moreno and Markovic I would argue have been dealt with similarly.

Sakhos performances against Norwich was as good as he's ever played in a red shirt I thought he was excellent.

You honestly think Rodgers was taking a chance with our season to fire Sahko up.  Never seen Sahko not fully committed on the pitch.

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #104 on: September 23, 2015, 06:22:47 pm »
Is it at all possible Sakho was frozen out to test his mentality before offering him a new high earning contract like Barret suggested a month or so ago? Moreno and Markovic I would argue have been dealt with similarly.

Sakhos performances against Norwich was as good as he's ever played in a red shirt I thought he was excellent.
It really would be the dumbest thing out to freeze out our best defender for the opening month of the season just to test his mentality. I think it's highly unlikely that's the reason, given that Rodgers really needed results straight from the off this season.
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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #105 on: September 23, 2015, 06:24:33 pm »
I think it is because while the highs under Brendan have been dizzily high, the lows have been depressingly low.

Brendan Rodgers should be given the credit he is due for the football that we played between January 2013 and March 2014.  It's certainly the best attacking football I've seen played at Anfield since the late 1980's.

For me, however, the drop off in the levels of performance since then have been unacceptable, even allowing for the high profile departures that we've had.  Barring a very good run between late Dec 2014 and early March 2015, our performance levels over the last year haven't been much above relegation standard.  The players look confused and unmotivated and we've been tactically outsmarted by some pretty mediocre managers.

If we'd finished 5th last season, but gone down fighting, I could have accepted it.  But our post March implosion, when our main rivals for the last champions league places were also floundering, contained some of the worst football I've seen Liverpool play in the last 25 years; comparable with the worst of the Souness and Hodgson eras in awfulness.

With such a dreadful finish, it was vitally important that we shot out of the blocks this season to restore faith and we just haven't done that.

I really genuinely hope Brendan can turn things around, not least because a change of manager is not a panacea for all the ills at the club that some seem to think it is.  Without broader changes to the recruitment set-up at the club, changing the manager would not yield the long term benefits that many expect.

The next 4 games are vital.  We should be capable of beating each of our next 3 opponents comfortably at home, but the derby at Goodison is the big one.  With the atmosphere around the club as nasty as it is at the moment, I don't think Brendan could survive a defeat in that game.

Make that 3 posts.

 :)

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #106 on: September 23, 2015, 06:26:20 pm »
Personally thought the Aliens post is probably one of the most honest, balanced and not loaded - on a game, I've seen in here all season.


Well done.

No argument from me on that score. Always a pleasure to read good balanced stuff.

 :)

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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #107 on: September 23, 2015, 07:29:56 pm »
You honestly think Rodgers was taking a chance with our season to fire Sahko up.  Never seen Sahko not fully committed on the pitch.

Walked out when he wasn't selected in the derby. Dont think Barrett pulled it out of his arse, reintroduced when he signed the contract and performed brilliant.

I'd be very surprised if Markovic was on loan for any other reason.
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Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #108 on: September 28, 2015, 09:58:05 am »
Just one thing to say and that is to comment on the excellence of Sturridge. There are two qualities in particular that he possesses that make him a stand-out forward. The first is his astonishing pace off the mark. It comes partly from a fine understanding of the game and an appreciation of how to stretch play; it comes partly from his jet heels. The way he got in front of his marker to begin the little one-two with Coutinho for the second goal demonstrates both of these things. His second great quality is his ability to play the ball in confined spaces without taking two touches - the simple thing, hard to do. He's a head-up player clearly. But he also plays without panic and confusion. He's Teddy Sheringham, except with pace.

Last time he came back from injury I thought he was guilty of over-elaborating: raking his studs on the ball - like Coutinho does - but for no apparent advantage, and generally using the occasion to remind us of his training-ground skills. On Saturday he was more direct and therefore more purposeful. The extravagance always had an objective. I hope this continues.

Actually, there's a third quality which Liverpool sorely lack without him - the complete absence of self-doubt.
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