Poll

What are your views on Kier Starmer's leadership of the Labour party to date?

Excellent
5 (1.9%)
Good
33 (12.7%)
Average
88 (34%)
Poor
46 (17.8%)
Awful
69 (26.6%)
Too early to say
18 (6.9%)

Total Members Voted: 259

Author Topic: Keir Starmer: your views?  (Read 90096 times)

Offline villagelife

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1880 on: October 27, 2021, 12:25:24 am »
Should labour have condemened the Saudi takeover of Newcastle?

Offline villagelife

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1881 on: October 27, 2021, 12:29:48 am »
Yes, just in the same way it was a white thing, because she was white and some trans people are white, and it was a marketing executive thing because she was a marketing executive and some trans people are marketing executives.

Trans people doing well in the UK, who would of thought. And the problem again is?

Offline Elmo!

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1882 on: October 27, 2021, 12:31:08 am »
Trans people doing well in the UK, who would of thought. And the problem again is?

It's all good guys, some trans people have a decent job, panic over, we can all go home.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1883 on: October 27, 2021, 01:13:44 am »
A report from the LGBT+ anti-violence charity Galop (link here: https://galop.org.uk/resource/transphobic-hate-crime-report-2020/) in 2020 suggested that four out of five trans people had experienced a hate crime in the previous twelve months, which is a statistic that is unfortunately moving in the wrong direction. There is definitely a problem. However, it’s relevance to Labour? Well, we can discuss how Labour finds itself having to walk a tightrope on a number of issues and how a lots of different factors play into that, but if we’re just going to carry this on by talking about how good trans people have it or don’t have it in this country, then maybe take it to the actual thread dedicated to that subject.

Isn't the one you linked to locked?
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1884 on: October 27, 2021, 08:47:36 am »
I downloaded ok but who knows with this stuff.

My trans friends, and the dozens of friends who know more than I do, suggest trans rights is about 20 years behind gay rights. I have to say, I think it's closer to 40 years behind and I would not want to live the life of a trans person right now.

And, no, I don't think it should be a premier point of Starmer's campaign, but I also don't think it was a major point of the last 5 years either. I mean, I'm hearing all these things about Labour exclusively talking on this issue when, in reality, it was such a small part of both their comms and their policy. Is that small part too much?

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1885 on: October 27, 2021, 08:50:46 am »
Strong agree
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1886 on: October 27, 2021, 09:18:09 am »
And, no, I don't think it should be a premier point of Starmer's campaign, but I also don't think it was a major point of the last 5 years either. I mean, I'm hearing all these things about Labour exclusively talking on this issue when, in reality, it was such a small part of both their comms and their policy. Is that small part too much?

I think it's partly an effect of social media and Tory amplification of the friction there. It's also partly the way the debate has been conducted and so can then be portrayed. Think the fight over Section 28, the difference between what was wanted and what was portrayed. It was shifting the discussion to somewhere else which ultimately led to the changes which should have been made, and which the general public could broadly get behind when put in terms of fairness and common sense and not wanting someone else to feel hated or unloved purely because of who they were. To use a different example, rather than pushing a message of 'defund the police', Labour could instead retain their commitment to undoing the Tory cuts to policing and also implement Lammy's proposals for reform of the criminal justice system. Two things done at the same time and neither as contradictory as some would seem to want to have them portrayed. Not as radical initially as others would want but a start on some of the underlying issues.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1887 on: October 27, 2021, 09:36:37 am »
I think it's partly an effect of social media and Tory amplification of the friction there. It's also partly the way the debate has been conducted and so can then be portrayed. Think the fight over Section 28, the difference between what was wanted and what was portrayed. It was shifting the discussion to somewhere else which ultimately led to the changes which should have been made, and which the general public could broadly get behind when put in terms of fairness and common sense and not wanting someone else to feel hated or unloved purely because of who they were. To use a different example, rather than pushing a message of 'defund the police', Labour could instead retain their commitment to undoing the Tory cuts to policing and also implement Lammy's proposals for reform of the criminal justice system. Two things done at the same time and neither as contradictory as some would seem to want to have them portrayed. Not as radical initially as others would want but a start on some of the underlying issues.

The equivalent might be to push for emphasis on being tough on the causes of crime, and demonising anyone who wants to be tough on crime, when the right approach is to be tough on both.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1888 on: October 27, 2021, 09:38:41 am »
Rumour is that they are going to do something to UC.  Possibly raise the threshold at which you can earn before you loose UC.

So there you go, you don’t have to go hungry, you just have to flog your guts out until you drop.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1889 on: October 27, 2021, 09:55:35 am »
The equivalent might be to push for emphasis on being tough on the causes of crime, and demonising anyone who wants to be tough on crime, when the right approach is to be tough on both.

Think one thing which could be usefully learned from Blair, and New Labour's PR work - for positive and negative at times (the message sent out on benefits, for instance, can be reasonably argued to have set up the 'skiver vs striver' narrative of austerity), is how something is framed can help build a consensus on socio-cultural things. Britain can be pretty socially liberal if the argument is put in a way which builds on shared ideas of 'fairness'. It's where I think Labour can lead on these issues but it's certainly easier done from within government than outside of it. Just really wanted to highlight that there's a difference between 'values' and how you then present those values though. The latter can influence how others will perceive the former etc.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1890 on: October 27, 2021, 10:01:18 am »
Think one thing which could be usefully learned from Blair, and New Labour's PR work - for positive and negative at times (the message sent out on benefits, for instance, can be reasonably argued to have set up the 'skiver vs striver' narrative of austerity), is how something is framed can help build a consensus on socio-cultural things. Britain can be pretty socially liberal if the argument is put in a way which builds on shared ideas of 'fairness'. It's where I think Labour can lead on these issues but it's certainly easier done from within government than outside of it. Just really wanted to highlight that there's a difference between 'values' and how you then present those values though. The latter can influence how others will perceive the former etc.

Oh yes, that's the work of comms and the Labour party has a horrible comms team at the moment.

And, let's be honest, the environment they communicate in is, at best, indifferent to the Labour party. So, it's not an easy job at the best of times and these are not the best of times.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1891 on: October 27, 2021, 10:01:37 am »
Think one thing which could be usefully learned from Blair, and New Labour's PR work - for positive and negative at times (the message sent out on benefits, for instance, can be reasonably argued to have set up the 'skiver vs striver' narrative of austerity), is how something is framed can help build a consensus on socio-cultural things. Britain can be pretty socially liberal if the argument is put in a way which builds on shared ideas of 'fairness'. It's where I think Labour can lead on these issues but it's certainly easier done from within government than outside of it. Just really wanted to highlight that there's a difference between 'values' and how you then present those values though. The latter can influence how others will perceive the former etc.

Building that liberal consensus will depend on using existing language, describing ye olde England ideals. The article I read yesterday citing "cancel" and "terf" just had me switching off.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1892 on: October 27, 2021, 10:17:15 am »
Building that liberal consensus will depend on using existing language, describing ye olde England ideals. The article I read yesterday citing "cancel" and "terf" just had me switching off.

Think that's part of making the argument in a way which works, isn't it? If your use of language is driving people away, even those who'd be inclined to support some or most of what you're proposing, then maybe you're the wrong person to be in charge of doing the convincing. Still, Labour have yet to put together a coherent repeated message, let alone figure out a way to find some unity on gnarlier issues than the Tories being shite, so we wait on that happening.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1893 on: October 27, 2021, 10:25:14 am »
Why is the Tory thread locked??

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1894 on: October 27, 2021, 10:26:38 am »
Why is the Tory thread locked??
One of their MPs was assassinated. I suspect the mods wanted to keep a wee bit of respect.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1895 on: October 27, 2021, 10:31:06 am »
One of their MPs was assassinated. I suspect the mods wanted to keep a wee bit of respect.

Yes, but that's old news now.  Lots of things they have been doing the past few days need highlighting.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1896 on: October 27, 2021, 10:32:00 am »
Oh yes, that's the work of comms and the Labour party has a horrible comms team at the moment.

And, let's be honest, the environment they communicate in is, at best, indifferent to the Labour party. So, it's not an easy job at the best of times and these are not the best of times.

Yeah, that's part of it. Don't disagree at all about Labour's failure there, and I do see the work going in so it's not lack of effort whatever else it may be.

Think internally Labour need to find some common ground and, perhaps as the Labour right suggest, reach a clear (albeit limited in many ways) position and stick to it. Can want it to more but the minimum a Labour government will do in power is *X* and *Y*. Your user name reminded me just now of other things which are quietly being pushed for in terms of education. I'd like the broader perspective than some mates feeling obliged to explain stuff, and I think it would be helpful to finding common ground and at least informing people so there's no excuse for ignorance in being an arsehole to others.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1897 on: October 27, 2021, 10:33:16 am »
Strong agree

Really? Who on earth has accused the Labour Party of "exclusively talking on this issue"? (It's a bit awkwardly put but I take this to mean that people are accusing Labour of talking about trans rights to the exclusion of everything else).

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1898 on: October 27, 2021, 10:43:35 am »
Really? Who on earth has accused the Labour Party of "exclusively talking on this issue"? (It's a bit awkwardly put but I take this to mean that people are accusing Labour of talking about trans rights to the exclusion of everything else).

Fair point.

Anecdotally, I have friends who didn't vote Labour in 2019 who have said that, and they hold this opinion now. I should have said that it would be more accurate to say that they believe Labour are overly concerned with the trans debate. But, as has been said, anecdotal evidence is not stellar enough to draw much from.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1899 on: October 27, 2021, 12:23:28 pm »
Fair play to Ed Milliband, he had 15 minutes notice he'd be doing PMQs instead of Starmer and did pretty well with what had been prepared.
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Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1900 on: October 27, 2021, 12:27:59 pm »
Labour has always stood for minorities.

Does it have to be front page? No. Should Labour abandon minorities? Hell no.


I know the Labour Party is a broad church and all, but what you are espousing is something that isn’t actually the Labour Party.


Labour's stood for the principle of equal rights, and against hate.

It shouldn't automatically 'stand' for any and every minority issue.

This is especially true when there are conflicting and competing 'rights' - as is the case with the trans debate, particularly concerning access to what women consider 'safe areas' and self-identification.

I think the problem Labour has with regards to these 'minorities' issues is not actually specifically of their making. Whilst Labour does have that history of supporting the principle of equality, what has traditionally been a broad approach has morphed into a labyrinth of increasingly niche 'minority issues', which bring their own subtleties.

Where once 'anti-racism' or 'pro-feminism' was the broad aim, now that large strides have been made in these general areas and the majority of campaigners in these areas are reasonably content with progress, 'micro-minorities' within those groups, who feel that their own niche groups are perhaps lagging behind on the progress front, have come to prominence. With that has come an increased level of militancy and shrillness of activists within these micro-minority issues.

With the Corbyn era, these militant activists more closely associated themselves with Labour and, in turn, the public have come to associate Labour with these militant activists.

Whether we like it or not, that plays a part in deterring a lot of people from voting Labour.




A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1901 on: October 27, 2021, 12:33:59 pm »
Yes, but that's old news now.  Lots of things they have been doing the past few days need highlighting.


Agree wholeheartedly.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1902 on: October 27, 2021, 12:34:22 pm »
Since Johnno might not answer in here (Though I directed him to the thread) - this is what he opined about Starmer (And this pretty much exact thing has been parroted about) - this is what he said (See the Brexit Thread);


Johnno

"He has usurped the Labour Party - assassinated the twice overwhelmingly elected Leader of the Labour Party, turned rightwards and abandoned traditional policies that would benefit the vast majority of our people. A trumped up lie re anti-Semitism being predominant within the Labour Party - of which until 2019, I was proud to have been an active member for 53 years - fabricated by the Labour Friends of Israel of which Starmer et al (Margaret Hodge and other MP supporters of the Israeli apartheid regime) is a prominent player and a cowardly back-stabber. I'm way too long in the tooth Andy to piss about seeking to justify to you or anyone else why Starmer's treachery has destroyed my political home. I recognise traitors when I see the consequences of their betrayal. I will never see another Labour Government in my lifetime because of that planted Establishment scab - and needless to say, my hatred for the blue-hearted quisling runs deep."




I've asked a few times for evidence/proof of all these various accusations and you'd think that if they were obvious and present then it would be super easy, barely an inconvienience to answer them all. So anyone else willing/able to have a crack at it?

It all just sounds a bit parroted and hysterical to me.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1903 on: October 27, 2021, 12:41:54 pm »

Labour's stood for the principle of equal rights, and against hate.

It shouldn't automatically 'stand' for any and every minority issue.

This is especially true when there are conflicting and competing 'rights' - as is the case with the trans debate, particularly concerning access to what women consider 'safe areas' and self-identification.

I think the problem Labour has with regards to these 'minorities' issues is not actually specifically of their making. Whilst Labour does have that history of supporting the principle of equality, what has traditionally been a broad approach has morphed into a labyrinth of increasingly niche 'minority issues', which bring their own subtleties.

Where once 'anti-racism' or 'pro-feminism' was the broad aim, now that large strides have been made in these general areas and the majority of campaigners in these areas are reasonably content with progress, 'micro-minorities' within those groups, who feel that their own niche groups are perhaps lagging behind on the progress front, have come to prominence. With that has come an increased level of militancy and shrillness of activists within these micro-minority issues.

With the Corbyn era, these militant activists more closely associated themselves with Labour and, in turn, the public have come to associate Labour with these militant activists.

Whether we like it or not, that plays a part in deterring a lot of people from voting Labour.


An excellent and intelligent post which frames the question fairly. 
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1904 on: October 27, 2021, 12:55:54 pm »

Labour's stood for the principle of equal rights, and against hate.

It shouldn't automatically 'stand' for any and every minority issue.

This is especially true when there are conflicting and competing 'rights' - as is the case with the trans debate, particularly concerning access to what women consider 'safe areas' and self-identification.

I think the problem Labour has with regards to these 'minorities' issues is not actually specifically of their making. Whilst Labour does have that history of supporting the principle of equality, what has traditionally been a broad approach has morphed into a labyrinth of increasingly niche 'minority issues', which bring their own subtleties.

Where once 'anti-racism' or 'pro-feminism' was the broad aim, now that large strides have been made in these general areas and the majority of campaigners in these areas are reasonably content with progress, 'micro-minorities' within those groups, who feel that their own niche groups are perhaps lagging behind on the progress front, have come to prominence. With that has come an increased level of militancy and shrillness of activists within these micro-minority issues.

With the Corbyn era, these militant activists more closely associated themselves with Labour and, in turn, the public have come to associate Labour with these militant activists.

Whether we like it or not, that plays a part in deterring a lot of people from voting Labour.
Agree, I think you've put it very well, 2 sides to this, how the public view Labour and how the militant activists/leaders influence followers, I think the effect of this has been underestimated. the situation is different today than say 40yrs ago.
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Offline thaddeus

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1905 on: October 27, 2021, 01:25:40 pm »
Can the government thread be unlocked as the Budget is being announced as we speak?  I feel the need to vent against the tossers.

For a starter, the cuts to Business Rates are coming out of the half collected by the local government and not the half collected by national government (this was leaked to the LGA earlier this week).  Gove waved this through in his new role so he's clearly got no desire to fight for his department.  The loss will more than wipe out any additional money made available for Adult Social Care.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1906 on: October 27, 2021, 01:31:18 pm »
Can the government thread be unlocked as the Budget is being announced as we speak?  I feel the need to vent against the tossers.

For a starter, the cuts to Business Rates are coming out of the half collected by the local government and not the half collected by national government (this was leaked to the LGA earlier this week).  Gove waved this through in his new role so he's clearly got no desire to fight for his department.  The loss will more than wipe out any additional money made available for Adult Social Care.

Agreed!

How can the thread be locked whilst the budget is happening - these c*nts need to be called out!

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1907 on: October 27, 2021, 02:17:10 pm »
Rachel Reeves wasn't meant to be doing the response and made a decent job of it too. Thought the start was good but faded a bit as she got further in. Can see already the two plans for the future. Sunak as the heir but setting up the tax cuts for next election (2023?), Reeves pinning waste and corruption over Covid contracts etc. on his time as chancellor. Grim listening to all the 'since 2010' stuff from Sunak. What a wasted decade. Suppose the full subtext of this budget was 'ah we've fucked you over on living standards for a decade and will keep doing it, but go and get pissed.'

---

New Statesman is running a model for the polls. They're now down to suggesting an election held tomorrow would result in a Tory majority of 4. And that because of where the Tory vote will be as both parties look like they'd be much closer with 4% between them. Should see the trend continue for a while yet before reversing at some point before the next election because the Tories aren't stupid enough to call an election when they're behind in the polls.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2021/08/election-win-calculator

(Corrected my misreading of a constituency projection for the national result. D:)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 02:25:22 pm by Zeb »
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1908 on: October 27, 2021, 02:37:22 pm »
Bit more to it than that. people in some minority groups think any Labour politician who disagrees with their arguments isn't on their side.

what exactly is your point here? why do we have to just accept whatever shite politicians we're given just because they wear a cute little red ribbon?
YNWA.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1909 on: October 27, 2021, 02:40:23 pm »
Its not nasty its reality. Trans whatever they want to be pro nouned are not  finding their lives in danger everyday, they arent going to be jailed, stoned or killed for slipping into a pair of ten denier tights. As i said, there are pubs in the UK i would be scared to walk into.

It doesnt affect me in anyway, but the likes of JK rowling and the Prof should be able to say what they want. What does worry me is the vitriol aimed at them, by the very people who claim they are being victimised.

As i said all this is far down the list of what the average UK person cares about, and in reality most people are fed up to the tits with it, but I feel it has been hijacked by some in Labour to show how more holier than thou they are. It aint solvable ever, its as divisive as brexit.

sorry, but your mask has slipped so far it has disintegrated.
YNWA.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1910 on: October 27, 2021, 02:46:44 pm »
Locked. There have been accusations of transphobia and I am locking it until the moderation team have had an opportunity to discuss this further.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
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