Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[Yorkykopite]

What a superb post. I don't think Ive read anything quite so penetrating about the big picture being painted by Rafa at Liverpool.

I agree with what you have to say about the youth programme and - even if only a fraction of the fruit is ultimately worth picking - it excites me to think of what might be falling into Liverpool's lap in 2 or 3 years time. Clearly, Rafa is making the major footballing commitment of his life at Liverpool. Let's hope the owners realise this and support him. If there's any further rocking of the boat by G/H my own thoughts will turn to homicide.

The stuff on Michels is interesting. It's tempting for an Englishman to take the piss out of Rinus Michels because it's the application of theory and 'systems-building' to football. But, Liverpool aside, this country has suffered enormously over the years by continuing to treat the game like amateurs.

Macia is impressive isn't he? His comments about Lucas made my spirits soar. The quotes from Hamberg are good too. I just didn't realise the Ajax bloodline there.

The McMananam quote about Redondo (Royhendo?) is revealing too - if only because Macca definitely was NOT like that. He didn't believe in himself and could be easily marginalised by both 'bullying' team-mates and opponents. No good, that.

Finally, do you know what Michels was like as a 'man-manager'? I ask because I'm still not 100 per cent convinced that Rafa couldn't do better here (I remember your previous post on this). Maybe it's not in the make-up of the boss, but a little bit of Harry Redknapp can be worth a helluva lot every now and then. If you want players to 'run through walls' for you then there has to be affection as well as respect.

[Guaranga]

Imagine Bob Paisley coming out with stuff like this.I forgot times have moved on though.

[Red number seven]

...you find yourself desperately hoping our nob-headed owners don't off and muck things by doing something as stupid as following the Newcastle line of thinking...

Scary thought. Any chance this OP could be forwarded to the board?

[Red number seven]

Imagine Bob Paisley coming out with stuff like this.I forgot times have moved on though.

To be fair, though, Paisley built a level 3 side, and bought in quality players, often at a young age who then spent time learning the 'Liverpool way.'

In fact, is the RM method very much the difficult to define 'Liverpool Way' - mentality, winners, pass and move but know how to win ugly, no star culture, inculcate new players into the club's culture, invisible board?

It might have been more instinctive with Bill & Bob, but I would suggest they were absolutely advocates of this way of thinking, wouldn't you?

Be interested to know the original poster's opinion on whether our glorious past is a great example of exactly what he/ RM have advocated.

[hesbighesred]

It's long because it deserves to be. That's a fucking superb article of professional quality, one that deserves to be in OSM or When Saturday Comes or somesuch...you should send it out and see if anyone's interested.

Frankly, I feel somewhat privileged to be able to read something at this level, on here, for free.

I would agree with you too, we are not at level 3 yet, and while our signings this season point in that direction, I don't think we will be there this season yet either. Like you say, the quality and adaptability to be seamless throughout all levels of the squad isn't quite there yet. Reading through the level 2 description is particularly interesting. If that isn't a more or less point by point description of our last 3 seasons I don't know what is, yet, we have been seeing more and more signs of geting closer to level 3 all the time.

One could almost use this to point to why in some ways we appear to have gone slightly backwards or sideways since the 05/06 season. That would seem to me like a level 2 side playing at almost peak efficiency, but never truly making the leap to level 3. The next season we start a transistion to the next level...points and consistency suffer, next season we are further along the road, and we manage to get very close or equal to 05/06, despite horrific problems off the field.

This should be a clarion call for patience. As brilliant and inspiring as much of this article is, there is also an very huge unspoken warning. To get rid of Rafa now would, almost certainly, be an absolute unmitigated disaster, unless we could bring in a successor who believes in this type of team building with the same intensity as Rafa does.

Interesting to make the comparison with our rivals too.

Man Utd, galling as this is, are at level 3. There is no coubt in my mind, all the hallmarks are there. However, even for them this is not something they have achieved consistently and seamlessly. I would argue that this current side is only one of perhaps 3 ever to truly reach this peak, and I would further argue that this is because a lower risk, higher finance strategy is being taken. Namely, the youth production is not that described for a level 3 side, it has been achieved over the years almost entirely through transfers. The longer Fergie goes on, I think, the fairer it is to describe their golden generation as an exception rather than a rule.

Chelsea, well, I would say that so far they have been a level 2 side of exceptional efficiency. They have so far not attempted to truly implement a level 3 style, and Mourinho is a level 2 manager all over...a strong reason why he shouldn't be considered as a replacement. It would be a backward step for us. A transition to level 3 is demande by Abramovich, yet the youth is not there, and the squad is still all about level 2. As we have seen from ourselves and indeed Man Utd this transition is not an easy one. Phil Scolari may be a genius (although I have my doubts) but he is going to have to be to achieve this transition under the pressure and time constraints he will have.

Arsenal seem to be a level 3, as you say, but clearly lack that ability to vary, and especially lack that transition from level 2 which enables them to fall back on those tactics when they are playing poorly or up against an opponent of phenomenal ability. The only time they have ever had that was just after Wenger had built on Graham's foundations. Since then level 2 has been abandoned, and doesn't seem to be coached into their youth. You see this as well with the kind of quotes their players always come out with...to paraphrase 'We play the best football. We love beautiful football. It's unfair when we lose because our football is beautiful and the other team played unfairly by not playing beautiful football.' Which to me misses the point of football: To win. There are no judges on the sidelines holding up cards for artistic merit, so until you learn to cope with teams who couldn't give a shit about the prettiness of their football you are never going to fulfill your potential. Their signings so far this summer are just a repeat of the same old same old. We will develop next year, MAn Utd are already there, Chelsea are trying, but Arsenal haven't developed since Arsene took over. In fact, they have gone slightly backwards, and in my view will never reach the next level for as long as Wenger remains in charge.

Therefore, although I am terrified at the thought of losing Rafa, I'm also optimistic that we can put a real challenge together, because quite honestly for this season I think we could be the ones who develop by far the most out of the top 4, and given how small the gap actually was last season, and given some semblence of off field stability, and with the media spotlight likely to be elsewhere again, I think this could be our best chance in a long while to realistically challenge, maybe even win.

[SpesRan]

Amazing post, read it all people. 

[forrest1980]

THIS IS A MUST READ POST IF YOU HAVE TIME !

What a great post lad ! Fantastic read and really has opened my eyes to "as someone said above" the complexity of what Rafa is doing at LFC !

Jesus, i think i've just had a lesson in Football Philosophy and Modern Day Youth Structure ! Ta ! 

[hesbighesred]

I took one look and thought bollocks to that.I wouldn't understand it anyway.

If that was a serious comment, then try and give it a go, please. The only thing complex about the article is the length. It's actually very easy to read, and so well written that I suspect if you read the first paragraph or two you will actualy soon forget how long it is because, like any good piece of writing, you will be to busy enjoying/thinking about it to worry about how much is left.

It's exactly the length it needs to be to make all the points it needs to make and explain them properly. One of the best bits of sports writing I've ever read on anything anywhere, and THE best on Rafa. Seriously.

[hesbighesred]

The stuff on Michels is interesting. It's tempting for an Englishman to take the piss out of Rinus Michels because it's the application of theory and 'systems-building' to football. But, Liverpool aside, this country has suffered enormously over the years by continuing to treat the game like amateurs.

Fucking exactly. It does my head in the extent to which English pundits/experts whatever take the piss out of any type of theoretical thinking, still applying the same techniques that worked great back in, oooh, 1906 or so.

It goes hand in hand with the type of 'We need to be playing 4-4-2 with a big man, little man, two Staney Matthews wingers and we'll win everything' mentality that conveniently ignores only about 50 years of football thinking.

It must be a source of endless hilarity to football fans/experts/pundits from other countries that English football is still ignoring the lessons we should have learned as gospel from the Magical Magyars all those years ago.

Sorry. Rant over.

[i6uuaq]

They will need to have the right mental capacity to process the lessons they learn on loan without the guidance from Rafa and his staff,

i guess that part of this teaches our players the independence and decision-making required in the RM model described above - it's hard for players to learn their trade in the presence of so many world-class "monsters", as royhendo calls them.

exposure to different styles of play could also be a factor, as is more regular playing time. but i suspect that some of the serial loanees simply don't figure in Rafa's long term plan. those loans would then be merely a financial consideration.

[hesbighesred]

Finally, do you know what Michels was like as a 'man-manager'? I ask because I'm still not 100 per cent convinced that Rafa couldn't do better here (I remember your previous post on this). Maybe it's not in the make-up of the boss, but a little bit of Harry Redknapp can be worth a helluva lot every now and then. If you want players to 'run through walls' for you then there has to be affection as well as respect.

I would say that Rafa is more than capable of doing it, but doesn't wnat to. A big part of his personal philosophy is that professional and aloof approach, and I think it makes sense. I don't want a Liverpool manager banging on about 'untouchables' the way that Mourinho did. I mean, how does that make the rest of the squad feel? What motivation does it give an Agger to know that Hyppia and Carra are 'untouchable', and how does Hyppia feel when he's replaced by a 'lower' squad member?

On the other hand, I think Rafa does recognise that some players need a more hands on approach...hence Sammy Lee.

[nicholasanthony]

Loved it, and really is making me think hard and starting to really fear us losing Rafa based on too higher expectations in a squad which simply may not be ready yet and this mightn't be due to Rafa. If he isn't given every opportunity to implement his full plan then it wouldn't be smart to sack him for not performing above where the team and plan is at.

I do agree also with your Alonso comments. I am a big Alonso fan just as any liverpool supporter is but i have to agree that he simply is not moving the ball in the fashion i wish he would. To put it in a brash over-the-top way, he seems to get the ball, hang on to it for a while, then return it to where it came. I remember when he used to be a superb play-making midfield and when he used to be talked about in the same ways that Xavi is spoken of in Barcelona (at least with my mates) in his ability to dictate tempo. I loved that Xabi and just pray that we see him return.

One of the most interesting pieces of football writing i've read for a while, now i just wish i had Michels' book,

[Red number seven]

Interesting to make the comparison with our rivals too.

Man Utd, galling as this is, are at level 3. There is no coubt in my mind, all the hallmarks are there. However, even for them this is not something they have achieved consistently and seamlessly. I would argue that this current side is only one of perhaps 3 ever to truly reach this peak, and I would further argue that this is because a lower risk, higher finance strategy is being taken. Namely, the youth production is not that described for a level 3 side, it has been achieved over the years almost entirely through transfers. The longer Fergie goes on, I think, the fairer it is to describe their golden generation as an exception rather than a rule.

Chelsea, well, I would say that so far they have been a level 2 side of exceptional efficiency. They have so far not attempted to truly implement a level 3 style, and Mourinho is a level 2 manager all over...a strong reason why he shouldn't be considered as a replacement. It would be a backward step for us. A transition to level 3 is demande by Abramovich, yet the youth is not there, and the squad is still all about level 2. As we have seen from ourselves and indeed Man Utd this transition is not an easy one. Phil Scolari may be a genius (although I have my doubts) but he is going to have to be to achieve this transition under the pressure and time constraints he will have.

Arsenal seem to be a level 3, as you say, but clearly lack that ability to vary, and especially lack that transition from level 2 which enables them to fall back on those tactics when they are playing poorly or up against an opponent of phenomenal ability. The only time they have ever had that was just after Wenger had built on Graham's foundations. Since then level 2 has been abandoned, and doesn't seem to be coached into their youth. You see this as well with the kind of quotes their players always come out with...to paraphrase 'We play the best football. We love beautiful football. It's unfair when we lose because our football is beautiful and the other team played unfairly by not playing beautiful football.' Which to me misses the point of football: To win. There are no judges on the sidelines holding up cards for artistic merit, so until you learn to cope with teams who couldn't give a shit about the prettiness of their football you are never going to fulfill your potential. Their signings so far this summer are just a repeat of the same old same old. We will develop next year, MAn Utd are already there, Chelsea are trying, but Arsenal haven't developed since Arsene took over. In fact, they have gone slightly backwards, and in my view will never reach the next level for as long as Wenger remains in charge.

Good assessment. Was going to post something about rivals too, but you've saved me the bother!

One point I would make is that Mourinho had far closer to a level 3 side at Porto than at Chelsea. Perhaps the demand for instant results and the owner/board interference stopped him developing? (as Royhendo says, Level 2 is the quickest way to success)

When he was the 'God in the blue chair' at Porto he could do what he wanted, and his side, whilst very ugly in many ways (diving, timewasting) actually played far better pass and move than he ever played at Chelsea - lots of good triangles and the puppetmastery of Deco in his pomp.

Be interesting to see what Scolari can do. One suspects Abramovic will never be patient enough to allow anyone to develop (which is how you have to achieve it, I think) level 3 football.

[i6uuaq]

Frankly, I feel somewhat privileged to be able to read something at this level, on here, for free.

ditto.

unfortunately, there isn't any newspaper in the world that prints articles of this quality - it's well ahead of what any journalist could ever hope to achieve. besides, it's far too long for the average reader.

i admit just scrolling through the first bit without even reading it, but the quality just caught me, and i found myself reading every word.

what caught me was the variety of sources and quotations used, with multiple references to the original source material.  Even without reading it in any detail, you can see that the article possesses a great amount of academic rigour, which would stand up well to criticism.

unless, of course, you don't even bother reading it.

definitely front-page material. thanks so much royhendo.

[Stussy]

Great post royhendo, enjoyed reading that very much.

[Red number seven]

I would say that Rafa is more than capable of doing it, but doesn't wnat to. A big part of his personal philosophy is that professional and aloof approach, and I think it makes sense.

I also think Rafa wants players with untouchable mentality, internally strong minds who have their own self confidence however they are playing and don't need constant bumming up. Look at the Lucas comment about even if he loses the ball.

He's a fucking hard man, Rafa.

[hesbighesred]

Good assessment. Was going to post something about rivals too, but you've saved me the bother!

One point I would make is that Mourinho had far closer to a level 3 side at Porto than at Chelsea. Perhaps the demand for instant results and the owner/board interference stopped him developing? (as Royhendo says, Level 2 is the quickest way to success)

When he was the 'God in the blue chair' at Porto he could do what he wanted, and his side, whilst very ugly in many ways (diving, timewasting) actually played far better pass and move than he ever played at Chelsea - lots of good triangles and the puppetmastery of Deco in his pomp.

Be interesting to see what Scolari can do. One suspects Abramovic will never be patient enough to allow anyone to develop (which is how you have to achieve it, I think) level 3 football.

Interesting. I'm probably being too harsh on Mourinho, in that case. He also had some input/control over the youth structure there didn't he? I seem to remember that the likes of Carvalho and Ferreira came through their youth. Mkes you wonder if stubborness came into play...if Mourinho mightn't have built Chelsea into 'level 3' if left to his own devices, but with Roman demanding an instant transition to top-of-level 3 his own stubborness came into play and made him even more entrenched?

Although, that said, Porto also has a culture of 'beautiful football', a bit like Barca, that all managers are expected to implement... or am I way off the mark there?

[Theon]

First off, amazing post. One of the reasons I frequent RAWK is posts in the mold of these, better than any other analysis I can find anywhere else, IMO.

Be interesting to see what Scolari can do. One suspects Abramovic will never be patient enough to allow anyone to develop (which is how you have to achieve it, I think) level 3 football.

Patience is the key for Rafa too, isn't it? Weren't people calling for his head after year 3? And his last finger was clinging onto the edge of the cliff last season. From the fantastic original post a certain sentence stuck out to me and with paraphrasing it said 'we really won't know if the development is working/complete until players like Dalla Valle hit the ages of 21-22.'  I'm not sure the fans or the board would be willing to give him that much time.

[Red number seven]

Interesting. I'm probably being too harsh on Mourinho, in that case. He also had some input/control over the youth structure there didn't he? I seem to remember that the likes of Carvalho and Ferreira came through their youth. Mkes you wonder if stubborness came into play...if Mourinho mightn't have built Chelsea into 'level 3' if left to his own devices, but with Roman demanding an instant transition to top-of-level 3 his own stubborness came into play and made him even more entrenched?

Although, that said, Porto also has a culture of 'beautiful football', a bit like Barca, that all managers are expected to implement... or am I way off the mark there?

Porto's a tough Port town that loves its football - lot like us, to be honest.

I think they prefer pretty football but prioritise winning football over everything - bit like us, really!

My suspicion is that he had trust, control and freedom at Porto, like Ferguson was given at United and Shankly at Liverpool and that is a cautionary tale for any club owner.

I don't think you can just buy level three football - it involves years of culture development and a massive amount of trust. That is the worst thing about our current ownership debacle.

[hesbighesred]

I also think Rafa wants players with untouchable mentality, internally strong minds who have their own self confidence however they are playing and don't need constant bumming up. Look at the Lucas comment about even if he loses the ball.

He's a fucking hard man, Rafa.

Good point, I think that's surely the ultimate goal, but in the mean time he also has the reality of (this feels too simple but it also feels somewhat true to me) getting the best out of Gerrard. Now, I don't for a second think that Lee and Barry would be brought in solely for Gerrard's benefit, but I honestly think that that is a factor in the thinking. Also not just that they would be 'arms round the shoulder' for him, but that they all seem like utterly consummate professionals (actually Keane as well) whose work ethic and approaches to the game seem to me to be closer to Rafa's.

I'm not saying Rafa and Gerrard are, or ever have been, at odds exactly, but I do think that Gerrard's mentality could be helped by seeing people he trusts and likes also responding excellently to Rafa. Might just be the sea change which helps him realise he's now AT the heart of the team rather than THE heart of the team.

The benefit of which is obvious...a fit, motivated and happy Gerrard, confident in the players and staff around him, is probably as or more capable of leading a good team to a title than any other player.

[hesbighesred]

Porto's a tough Port town that loves its football - lot like us, to be honest. I think they prefer pretty football but prioritise winning football over everything - bit like us, really!

My suspicion is that he had trust, control and freedom at Porto, like Ferguson was given at United and Shankly at Liverpool and that is a cautionary tale for any club owner. I don't think you can just buy level three football - it involves years of culture development and a massive amount of trust. That is the worst thing about our current ownership debacle.

Right, I was being harsho on him then. I think you're right, I'd be inclined to put it down to the Roman factor too.

Be interesting to see what Scolari can do. One suspects Abramovic will never be patient enough to allow anyone to develop (which is how you have to achieve it, I think) level 3 football.

I also find the appointment of Scolari a slightly odd one in this respect. It's really strange how he's suddenly got this rep for beautiful football. It's so backwards. As far as I remember, the whole point of Scolari with Portrugal and Brazil was to introduce a degree of hard headed pragmatism into teams stuffed with beautiful footballers but not exactly overflowing with team spirit and backbone.

He's now got to do it the exact other way around, and with a boss who thinks that the combination of money and desire should be enough to achieve his vision. In business, yes, maybe. In football? Scolari's age doesn't suggest that lessons regarding long term planning, genuine foundations and patience have been learned either.

[Red number seven]

Good point, I think that's surely the ultimate goal, but in the mean time he also has the reality of (this feels too simple but it also feels somewhat true to me) getting the best out of Gerrard. Now, I don't for a second think that Lee and Barry would be brought in solely for Gerrard's benefit, but I honestly think that that is a factor in the thinking. Also not just that they would be 'arms round the shoulder' for him, but that they all seem like utterly consummate professionals (actually Keane as well) whose work ethic and approaches to the game seem to me to be closer to Rafa's.

I'm not saying Rafa and Gerrard are, or ever have been, at odds exactly, but I do think that Gerrard's mentality could be helped by seeing people he trusts and likes also responding excellently to Rafa. Might just be the sea change which helps him realise he's now AT the heart of the team rather than THE heart of the team.

The benefit of which is obvious...a fit, motivated and happy Gerrard, confident in the players and staff around him, is probably as or more capable of leading a good team to a title than any other player.

Absolutely. The mentality thing is probably where Gerrard and Rafa haven't always been, shall we say, on the same wavelength.

Gerrard is a top, top player and has a great mentality in terms of caring, effort etc, but he does have a degree of fragility and seems to need a fair bit of reassurance - Rafa just doesn't do that, he expects players on 120k a week not to be so insecure.

I imagine he despairs when he hears Gerrard moan about playing right mid, for example - for Benitez, you are a cog in the machine and you do what you're asked to do (in fairness to Gerrard, despite the moan, he did play well there, and try his bollocks off at all times, so this isn't intended as criticism)

But Rafa is nothing if not pragmatic, and will probably be prepared to compromise slightly on a talent like Gerrard, and so he should - Fuck me, Ferguson has sold his soul for players like Cantona and Keane over the years.

Having a jolly fat link man like Sammy Lee (who's also a decent coach) might not be about Gerrard, but I'm sure it's a happy spin off for Rafa!

[Red number seven]

I also find the appointment of Scolari a slightly odd one in this respect. It's really strange how he's suddenly got this rep for beautiful football. It's so backwards. As far as I remember, the whole point of Scolari with Portrugal and Brazil was to introduce a degree of hard headed pragmatism into teams stuffed with beautiful footballers but not exactly overflowing with team spirit and backbone.

Yeah, strange appointment. No recent history in club football, reputation as a professional hard ass, but noone's doubting Chelsea's professionalism.

He's now got to do it the exact other way around, and with a boss who thinks that the combination of money and desire should be enough to achieve his vision. In business, yes, maybe. In football? Scolari's age doesn't suggest that lessons regarding long term planning, genuine foundations and patience have been learned either.

See, I think Abramovic hasn't looked at it like that - he wants the Barca of a couple of years ago - beautiful football played by beautiful footballers, attack, attack, attack. And you probably can buy that.

This isn't level 3 (as there is no plan B) and will not be as effective, especially in a league like England's.

In terms of dynastic success there is no substitue for patiently developing a culture that your players have grown up in. Takes time, though and is a painful process. 'Fergie Out' is another cautionary tale!

[Мерфи]

Again, I want to say this was mouth water stuff.

There are very few insightful pieces like this written nowadays: an application of football theory as compared to present day circumstances.  I've no doubt royhendo is looking at this through his own biased supposition that this is Rafa's philosophy, and trying to rectify certain transfers with where Liverpool stands on that process of developing a footballing organization.  I've got to say, if this isn't Rafa modus operandi, than it can't be far off it. 

Rafa is a true student of football organization and management, having taken the time to study some of the greats of the modern game, and will have no doubt taken a look at footballing philosphies of the past and not to distant past to form his own ideas.  It would be impossible to take your job seriously as a manager of one of the biggest and best teams in all of football, if you have not taken into consideration Michels methods.  I'd also be dead interested on where his own personal footballing philosophies now differ from those posed by RM.

I'd also recommend linking this article to Paco Ayesteran's views on Liverpool's prospect of winning the Premier League given at the beginning of last year.  It was an affront to many of the rabid Liverpool fan's, who ascribe to the philosophy that attitude is everything (er . . . 'mentality'?) - but good food for thought when you compare the current article of Liverpool's development to what the coaching staff's overall goal is.

Great great great stuff.

[hesbighesred]

But Rafa is nothing if not pragmatic, and will probably be prepared to compromise slightly on a talent like Gerrard, and so he should - Fuck me, Ferguson has sold his soul for players like Cantona and Keane over the years.

Yep. That's the key for me too. Rafa isn't a man to compromise, but at the same time he's also a football man through and through. I suspect in private he possibly wishes Gerrard had maybe an ounce less talent and the perect mentality that, say, a Mash or Kuyt does, but on the other hand I also suspect that he would rate Gerrard is hands down the best player he's ever worked with as a manger.

I would hope that he sees it as an interesting challenge rather than a problem, but one he's also not prepared to solve by going down that Man Utd approach of icon building. It doesn't surprise me Fergie has talked about Gerrard before. In an alternate universe he would have been their true successor to Keane/Cantona.

[The Fletcher Memorial]

That was the best read I've had one here. Superb!

[hesbighesred]

Yeah, strange appointment. No recent history in club football, reputation as a professional hard ass, but noone's doubting Chelsea's professionalism.See, I think Abramovic hasn't looked at it like that - he wants the Barca of a couple of years ago - beautiful football played by beautiful footballers, attack, attack, attack. And you probably can buy that.

This isn't level 3 (as there is no plan B) and will not be as effective, especially in a league like England's.

In terms of dynastic success there is no substitue for patiently developing a culture that your players have grown up in. Takes time, though and is a painful process. 'Fergie Out' is another cautionary tale!

Still leaves a huge transition to be engineered. That said, if Scolari is successful in implementing the attack side he could well achieve a level 3 side kind of on the sly, in the way that I would argue Wenger's first double winning side was at that level.

Man, the quality of this article is surely confirmed by the way I'm talking about level 3 and level 2 like I would talk about 4-4-2 or the offside trap, despite never having used these terms before or read them anywhere other than in this article a short while ago.

[royhendo]

 

To be fair, though, Paisley built a level 3 side, and bought in quality players, often at a young age who then spent time learning the 'Liverpool way.'

In fact, is the RM method very much the difficult to define 'Liverpool Way' - mentality, winners, pass and move but know how to win ugly, no star culture, inculcate new players into the club's culture, invisible board?

It might have been more instinctive with Bill & Bob, but I would suggest they were absolutely advocates of this way of thinking, wouldn't you?

Be interested to know the original poster's opinion on whether our glorious past is a great example of exactly what he/ RM have advocated.

enjoyed this post a lot - thanks! also loads of others by the way, and some really high quality ones, but especially this one.

the fact our bootroom greats sat in a bootroom with pots of tea, or jumped in the vauxhall viva and tanked it up to gretna for a pie and chips and a cuppa with jock stein - it doesn't make the things they talked about any less theoretical or any less ahead of their time than what rinus michels talks about in his book. the bootroom was the ultimate university of football, and shanks was close friends with some of the greatest thinkers in the game.

just because RM's dutch, and because there's all this academic theoretical mystique about his methods, it doesn't mean it's any different to what went on under Shanks and Paisley, or indeed at Celtic under Stein.

both clubs enjoyed long periods of what we've tagged 'level 3 football' where they enjoyed sustained domination domestically and won trophies on the continent. your point's exactly right. and it's worth reminding people that people still come over here from the continent to do their coaching qualifications.

just because our methods were down to earth, it doesn't make them any less sophisticated. and just because Rinus Michels conjures up images of a theoretician in a lab coat, doesn't mean he was any less down to earth than we were.

It's people like Brian Glanville who perpetuate these myths - blah blah 'hellenio herrera' blah blah 'the great inter milan of the 60s' and all that garbage. it's a working man's game, but working men's brains work just as well as those of their aristocratic counterparts.

[fowlermagic]

Damn. I need to read that 3 or 4 more times to even see the tip of the iceberg. Interesting to see what Michels had to say about the building if a successful team and I am sure every successful manager's thoughts follow suit somewhat.

This is the goal for any title winning team

Level 3 - Domination, play-making, and circulation football

and to be honest any title winner from Arsenal, Chelsea to Utd have achieved that standard. Their styles may vary a little bit but you are not crowned Champions of England unless you achieve the highest level of football.

Mentality is the difference at the moment as I believed since Season 3 under Rafa he had the the majority of ingredients to at least challenge for the title. Adding Torres last season was the topping on the cake I believe and now Keanes addition will free SG up to again to cure the hangover we have out wide I believe.

I do frown upon the idea that we have to wait for the youth to come through as we need to hit level 3 first before that happens as there is no chance we will risk youth at the moment in a side that quite often has to win games to take pressure off Rafa. Youth will only propser in a team of winners and you only have to look at UTD & Arsenal over the past decade as proof of that.

It is a mental issue at this stage as we have gone into too many games hoping for a draw / sneak a win mentality. Games where a full back gets a run out as a winger / wide option or you start a game with just two likely scorers. Once we get beyond that mindset then you might start talking.

Great piece and I wonder how much Rafa agrees on it?

[Stussy]

OK, I just scanned it and speed read it before, but now I've read it properly and it's a little masterpiece of an article royhendo. Thanks for making all these links between where we are and the vision of Michels, and yes, it really deepens understanding of what is going on, and the long term trajectory of our club under the control of Rafael Benitez.

Just read it, everyone read it and learn.

[Dancingpants]

Excellent post! Best I have ever read.

[mulfella]

Should be front page this.

[hesbighesred]

Level 3 - Domination, play-making, and circulation football

and to be honest any title winner from Arsenal, Chelsea to Utd have achieved that standard. Their styles may vary a little bit but you are not crowned Champions of England unless you achieve the highest level of football.


I do frown upon the idea that we have to wait for the youth to come through as we need to hit level 3 first before that happens as there is no chance we will risk youth at the moment in a side that quite often has to win games to take pressure off Rafa. Youth will only propser in a team of winners and you only have to look at UTD & Arsenal over the past decade as proof of that.

I disagree with these two points. Level 3, as described in the OP, is not what titles are made of, it's what dynasties are made of.

Only Man Utd match that, and even then there are some key differences which give me hope that Rafa, given time, can match and even better their level. The principle ones being that the renewal is based on transfers not the youth system, and IMO since Best they have always based teams around an 'icon'. It has huge advantages if the icon is up to the task, not least in terms of marketing, but whether it's more effective than than what might be termed our 'communism' I don't know.

I think both have their benefits, but I think ours at the highest level allows for a continuity and a constancy that Man Utd have never quite achieved...each loss of an 'icon' requires a period of transition that I don't think existed in our glory years, and survived even management changes.

Chelsea got close, but never developed beyond level 2, and for me Arsenal have simply skipped level 2...a fatal weakness that for me means they will never dominate under Wenger. Yes they went unbeaten, but in the league only, and only in that season have the come close to such an achievement. The same old weaknesses were there in Europe and the cups, just like they were last season, just like they will be next season.

On to young players. Couldn't disagree more. If that were true quality youngsters would only ever be developed at great teams, in which case where the hell do the likes of Torres, Toure, Rooney, Richards etc etc etc come from?

Being a young star for a rubbish side can bring enourmous pressures and challenges that the youngster brought into a top side may never have to face, and hence can make the kid from the no mark side much stronger in the long run. The careers of players like Crouch, Wright and Finnan, not to mention many of our own icons like Keegan and Rush, are testament to this. Developing at shite clubs is what helped them be so mentally strong, precisely the thing that is also hardest to coach.

[Guaranga]

If that was a serious comment, then try and give it a go, please. The only thing complex about the article is the length. It's actually very easy to read, and so well written that I suspect if you read the first paragraph or two you will actualy soon forget how long it is because, like any good piece of writing, you will be to busy enjoying/thinking about it to worry about how much is left.

It's exactly the length it needs to be to make all the points it needs to make and explain them properly. One of the best bits of sports writing I've ever read on anything anywhere, and THE best on Rafa. Seriously.

I give it a genuine go couldn't make head or tail of it.

[hesbighesred]

I give it a genuine go couldn't make head or tail of it.

Fair enough.

[Guaranga]

Fair enough.

Sum it up in a few sentences if you don't mind.

[xavidub]

excellent post indeed.

[Red number seven]

Developing at shite clubs is what helped them be so mentally strong, precisely the thing that is also hardest to coach.

Does that explain why Rafa's keen on loans when players are nearly, but not quite, ready for the first team?

Always thought it was a physical strength/stamina/game time development thing, but could equally be about thriving on your own and developing mental solidity?

[fowlermagic]

I disagree with these two points. Level 3, as described in the OP, is not what titles are made of, it's what dynasties are made of.

Only Man Utd match that, and even then there are some key differences which give me hope that Rafa, given time, can match and even better their level. The principle ones being that the renewal is based on transfers not the youth system, and IMO since Best they have always based teams around an 'icon'. It has huge advantages if the icon is up to the task, not least in terms of marketting, but whether it's more effective than than what might be termed our 'communism' I don't know. I think both have their benifits, but I think ours at the highest level allows for a continuity and a constancy that Man Utd have never quite achieved...each loss of an 'icon' requires a period of transition that I don't think existed in our glory years.

Chelsea got close, but never developed beyond level 2, and for me Arsenal have simply skipped level 2...a fatal weakness that for me means they will never dominate under Wenger. Yes they went unbeaten, but in the league only, and only in that season have the come close to such an achievement. The same old weaknesses were there in Europe and the cups, just like they were last season, just like they will be next season.

On to young players. Couldn't disagree more. If that were true quality youngsters would only ever be developed at great teams, in which case where the hell do the likes of Torres, Toure, Rooney, Richards etc etc etc come from?

Being a young star for a rubbish side can bring enourmous pressures and challenges that the yougster brought into a top side may never have to face, and hence can make the kid from the no mark side much stronger in the long run. The careers of players like Crouch, Wright and Finnan are testament to this. Developing at shite clubs is what helped them be so mentally strong, precisely the thing that is also hardest to coach.

So you are only putting dynasties on Level 3? Dynasties, of what we grew up on anyway, are near nigh impossible to build these days as I even look at Utds present set up and say their invincibility is not as solid as it was back in the 90s or ours back in the 70s and 80s. Hats off to winning two in a row but I cannot see any side winning 6 or 7 titles in a decade these days....I may be wrong but I figure the top 4, hopefully, will devy up the titles for the next decade pretty evenly among themselves. Thats just my take on where the game is going and has been actually for the past several years.

I am not expecting Rafa or us to ever win title after title again as the modern game will not allow that to happen I believe. If Rafa can turn around in 10 years time and look at 2 or 3 league titles then I will think he will have achieve as much as any manager could have at the club. For me that is a modern dynasty and the target we need to be setting.

In terms of youth, those that have come through at the dynasties were ones who were eased into a working format that was already winning titles. That is the goal for us. Of course you can always go out and buy the best youth money can buy but again without a working template which the likes of Ronaldo, Rooney, Toure, Fabregas came into too they may struggle. Our youth policy is a work in progress and will only come to fruit, I think, once you have title winners out there easing them into the 1st team.

[Red number seven]

Sum it up in a few sentences if you don't mind.

Dutch football Guru wrote book outlining the building of successful footballing dunasty.

Some of the cornerstones are:
everyone from board to cleaners pulling in the same direction
-developing a culture of excellence, mental strength, team spirit, knowledge of tactics and role within these tactics
-bringing youth up in that culture
-developing your football through various levels from 'backs to the wall' (level 1) through 'counter attacking' (level 2) to 'circulation football with a cutting edge' - similar to pass and move in my opinion(level 3)

The author contends that Rafa's philosphy is very similar and you can see a gradual development from level 2 to level 3 football.

Doesn't really do the article anything like justice, as he argues the points extremely coherently and fills it with examples and quotations.

Very convincing stuff.