Author Topic: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC  (Read 16738 times)

Offline Red_Irishman

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2014, 02:10:51 am »
He was excellent. Helped also by the movement of Suarez and Sturridge ahead of him, the work of Flanagan on the right, Henderson keeping shape in the middle and Gerrard supporting from behind. In Brazilian coaching, there is sometimes a reference to the "Brazilian Box" (not the box midfield, but a shape to show where the support options are for the player on the ball). It looks like this:

Nothing quite like a 'brazilian box' alright. 
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2014, 02:10:54 am »
I think he overplays his hand but can see where Vulmeas coming from. I thought we played well in the circumstances our counter attacking was ruthless and we managed to keep Everton from too much possession in areas that would hurt us but it wasn't as easy as the score suggested even though we could have scored more. It was a battle and tactically Rodgers  deserves credit for formulating a plan that worked to our advantage, there were times in the first half where my heart was in my mouth and if  they'd have scored the game would have taken a different course but we stood by our plan an executed it very well denying them possession in dangerous areas and taking advantage of their highline but it was pragmatic rather than the beaytiful football we have seen glimpses of this season and Rodgers derserves credit alongside Gerrard Couthino and out strike force.

I haven't been saying we didn't deserve to win or we didn't look great going forward just that we aint as convincing as many comments or the scoreline suggest - and I felt the same after the spurs game - doesn't mean I'm right in feeling that way. I know in the past when I've felt even 1-0 up that the game was over and the opposition had no way back because we were in control - I just dont feel this team carries that 'authority' - it does conceed good chances, too easily in my opinion (not just from set pieces) but its also fantastic at scoring and if the opposition did score we could go and score another - its just not what I'm used to I guess

They only had 4 shots on target, though. So the question is what kinds of quality chances did they actually create? How many saves did Mignolet have to make where you could say "he kept us in the game there"? I can think of one for sure. Maybe two. That would be standard in any game.

I don't think we controlled the game as much as people might think, but it also wasn't open. They snatched at chances, created maybe 2 good ones, and other than that, we kept them in front of us and to the sides of us. That would certainly qualify as "controlling the game".

You may be right - and as I've said it could just be me - most teams do have spells in games but its just not the impression I'm left with after watching us - clearly I'm in a minority of 1 :)

I thought it was Everton fluffing their lines rather than us restricting them- as you say snatching at their openings rather than there not being any

 I accept I'm  a miserble git though

I can almost see this angle on the Everton game if I squint, but thinking we were flattered in the Spurs game makes me fear for your mental health. ;)

maybe I have some form of seasonal adjustment disorder? I thought in the Spurs game until the sending off we could still have lost - the commentary of domination and control of the game doesn't fit for me -  the 4 goals in this case (still smiling about the last two) just add a certain rosy glint as winning usually does





 
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Offline Miltonred

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2014, 02:23:26 am »
I know where your coming from Vulmea. I remember watching us in the 80's when teams would come to Anfield and not get a shot. The control of the game was complete.  That is how I was brought up to view "controlling the game".

I remember watching is play Coventry in a game where we won 4-0, and their goalkeeper was man of the match - by a mile. He made about a dozen unbelievable stops. At the time Coventry were mid table - they weren't awful but they didn't see the ball for 90 minutes.

Liverpool don't play that brand of football now, they can't and perhaps more importantly they shouldn't be aiming to do that with this group of players. Squeezing the play into the opponents half for 90 minutes is an invitation for opponents to park the bus, and try to hit us on the counter.

I liked Jocky Hansen's comment "Every time Everton attacked I thought Liverpool would score."  This is the ideal for us today.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2014, 02:23:50 am »
Brendan Rodgers has mentioned several times that if you control possession, most of the time you'll win the game. This match was a great example of what can happen in those games that aren't "most of the time".

Martinez is a smart manager. He has a brand of football and he's managed to get Everton playing a patient passing game, something that makes your head spin if you think about it hard enough. Everton had more of the ball than we did. A lot more. Given the missing personnel in our team, we were always going to be very flat across the back, and we weren't about to tiki taka around Gareth Barry and co in the middle. So Rodgers set us up to play differently. To play smarter.

As someone alluded to earlier, Alex Ferguson's teams often didn't dominate possession. They did usually win. And they tended to do it by counter-attacking. You let the opposition have the ball. You let them pass it around and you let them move forwards as a unit. Up to a point. And then you take it away from them.

For all their good work with the ball, this Everton side are not blessed with incredible pace. Their build-up play was channelled away from the danger areas and then, when they were where we wanted them to be, we took the ball off them and changed the direction of play. It's the sucker-punch, draw them in, let them get into attacking positions, let their defence drift up to the halfway line, and then BANG, Sterling and Sturridge, off like rockets. Suarez, not the fastest legs in the game, but easily the fastest brain. They're still turning to see where the ball is and it's in the net.

Where we got lucky, where they played to our tune, was with that early corner. Until then, it was a close thing, they were showing some intent and even had an early shot that on another day might have changed things. But that corner, Suarez showing again that a dead ball is always an opportunity, and the movement of Gerrard, losing his old pal Barry so completely that he clundered into a team-mate, ending the night for Everton's best hopes of a goal in the process. That goal meant that the blues had to go on the offensive, had to take the initiative.

They couldn't be the ones to sit back, not a goal down in the derby, so they came at us, slow and ponderous as they were, blunt as they were, lovely football, but only until we snatched it back and caught them with their trousers down, over and over again.

The plan. Rodgers, the man who some feared had no plan B, had designed and executed yet another tactical masterstroke. Gerrard, guarding the back four, growing into the role, showing discipline and composure and, above all, real leadership. He conducted the team from behind the centre circle like Vassily Petrenko in the Phil, a wave of his baton and Coutinho, also showing previously unrevealed self control in a slightly deeper role than normal, would spread the play, Sterling would rip down the line, Suarez would do whatever the hell he wanted to and another goal was scored.

The derby is always passionate, there's always a story and usually some controversey - (how many Everton fans still maintain that leading with the elbow is an automatic red? Funny, that...) but rarely is it actually a good game of football. One for the purists, one for the neutrals. This was simply magnificent.
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Offline Resurrected

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2014, 02:41:42 am »
Biggest contribution towards our victory didn't come from Gerrard, Sturridge or Coutinho. It came from our own fans who were absolutely superb. A big well done and thank you to everyone who went and supported the team.

Offline Livo.85

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2014, 02:52:00 am »
Biggest contribution towards our victory didn't come from Gerrard, Sturridge or Coutinho. It came from our own fans who were absolutely superb. A big well done and thank you to everyone who went and supported the team.
And Gareth Barry

Offline Livo.85

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2014, 03:07:51 am »
What do we make of Suarez (not exclusively) taking corners instead of Gerrard or Coutinho?

I have a theory that while he can be dangerous from taking the short option, if he gets wrestled in the pen box the ref will likely not give a pen & if he scores, it will also likely not be given due to him supposedly tugging or being dubiously offside just because the ref/linesman see's that it's Suarez.


Offline Nessy76

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2014, 03:09:16 am »
What do we make of Suarez (not exclusively) taking corners instead of Gerrard or Coutinho?

I have a theory that while he can be dangerous from taking the short option, if he gets wrestled in the pen box the ref will likely not give a pen & if he scores, it will also likely not be given due to him supposedly tugging or being dubiously offside just because the ref/linesman see's that it's Suarez.

Aside from that, he's by far our best player of a dead ball.
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Offline Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2014, 03:13:03 am »
Rodgers got it right, Martinez got it wrong. That was how the tune played throughout the whole match. Lukaku's injury didn't help Everton's cause but it was just dead end passing with zero end product. Our attack was purring from the off, it became another game at Anfield that we had already won before half time.

The past week has been like the evolution of system. Against Villa, we started with a 4-4-2/4-2-4 and were poor, until we changed midway through the first half. Against Bournemouth, we played a 4-2-3-1 and won in unspectacular fashion. Against Everton, Rodgers went back to back to old faithful with a 4-3-3 which saw the entire make-up of the team change and everything click back into place.

Coutinho's New Role

He was key, his role was key and his performance was key.

With our depleted midfield options, the possibility of Coutinho playing in a three as one of the two offensive midfielders has been at the forefront of a lot of minds recently, mine included. This performance could indicate where Coutinho's long term future at Liverpool lies.

This role takes advantage of Coutinho's ability to operate in tight spaces with little time, whilst under pressure but it also drastically reduces the expectancy to create or score goals, not a bad thing when he hasn't been as prolific as last season. He looked more at ease and freer than he has all season, maybe playing as left forward has been more a burden in recent games than a more withdrawn role.

His proficiency in this position meant that the three man midfield worked, because as others having pointed out, he pulled his defensive weight (5 tackles, blocked 1 shot). When our midfield works, usually our team works and that was the story here. Offensively, Coutinho seemed to be the key, he completed the most passes in our team (45 passes in 79 minutes).

Flanagan

I bloody love him.

He's committed, he's technically adept and he does the simple things that make the big things happen. No fuss, no thrills. He gets the ball, he sees a pass and he makes it. He doesn't dilly dally on the ball and waste precious seconds.

Offline trembles97

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2014, 03:27:53 am »
I was really impressed with Sturridge's distribution when he did drop deeper from the left side. Very calm and composed and always looked to switch the play to Flanno or Raheem.

Also, Phil's defensive ability was astounding. The tracking, harrying, and tackling were all there. Looked like a Barcelona player in red colors.

Offline adamski29

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Re: Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2014, 11:01:41 am »
I swear you lot comment on the result not the match. Fantastic result in  a key match and really opens up chances for us at the top but but but

just like the 5 -0 against Spurs the result and the game were not really a reflection of each other - in part the distortion comes from our strike force being magnificent,  capable of scoring as many as they want

but despite BR saying we controlled the space, did we?  The game I was watching had Everton create consistently through the game inside the box, out wide and around the edges - Mirallas played well, Mignolet earned his money two or three times with very good saves

the scorelines in both games stand out, maybe its just me but we dont control games , they are wide open, its like kids football where anything can happen, 6 all draws, 5 goals in the last 10 minutes anything  at all, its amzing to watch, but you come out teh other side thinking wtf , how did that happen

Everton were blunt up front, the loss of Lukaku did not help but with  a fraction more luck they could have scored from decent chances at key times, whenever the looked to be back in it they missed (rather than great defending), it may have made little difference, we may have gone and scored again and I agree with Roy, 5 - 0 and it could have been 8  but at the same time if they'd have made it 1-1 or 3-1 and obviously it a different game

For me dominating games, is when we see a one sided contest - plenty of chances for us , none for the opposition - that simply is not happening - I guess I need to learn to appreciate a whole different approach if this counts as a superb game from us.

I dont see why we need to lose such control and give up so many chances to enjoy the spectacle going forward

As for SG I'm afriad I didn't see the same massive improvement as everybody else - if there had been those chances would just not have been there and the last gasp blocks and lung busting runs wouldn't have been needed - early on it looked ominous , he was wrong side, a yard short, he improved when he sat deeper  but I'm still not convinced - I want him to succeed there because I just want the lad to succeed at everything but it'll take  a little more than an adrenalin fueled performance to convince me.

Flanagan did well, Sterling is becoming more of  a player than a luxury, Henderson added a  physical presence that helped balance the side but a pacier side (like Villa) I think would have exposed our deficiencies again.

Great result but but but........















There is more than one way to control a game though, I think. We didn't control centre mid at all, but we did control everything else. Had we pushed up and dominated the midfield we wouldn't have had the space to stretch the game and counter attack into.
Which we did to devastating effect.
Martinez stated he wanted to control the game, so Brendan went, OK you can dominate the midfield seen as it suits us with current personal anyway, but we're going to be compact and murder you on the quick break. Masterclass from Brendan to be honest.

I do kinda agree about stevie though, he had a brilliant game, but was a little bit too much last ditch,  adrenaline fueled seat of your pants type play, I may be being harsh there but I wonder would we be getting that in a less meaningful fixture.

Offline 007.lankyguy

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2014, 11:06:57 am »
I thought we controlled space a lot better than we did at Goodison. It wasn't perfect but by and large, we forced Everton to play wide and then back. We played narrower in midfield, tried to block the passing lanes inside and forced them to play more out through their full backs, which in turn created space for us to counter into.

Thought Rodgers shifted his approach to concentrate a lot more on protecting our midfield and though, as I said we weren't perfect, we controlled that space better than we usually do. When we do that, I think our attack becomes even more lethal.
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Offline mrantarctica

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2014, 11:31:27 am »
I accept I'm  a miserble git though

It's hard not to be after many a depressing season!   :-[

I think the key thing is to recognise that though we've improved drastically, this is still very much a team in transition. We have a lot of elements of our game to iron out, and many of the players are very young and are likely to form the nucleus of the squad for the next 3-4 years.

If we can continue to work diligently and build around what we have then we may end up seeing a team that dominates for the full 90 mins, even against good sides. Heck we may even be regular title contenders!

If you'd told me that we'd be top of the table within 3 years when Roy was in charge, after our protracted bankruptcy problems, I would have laughed, and then punched you for being a WUM. Yet, within 3 years, on New Year's Day we'd gone from 12th to 1st. (In the same time Man City spent £220m on players, Chelsea £280m)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 11:42:10 am by mrantarctica »

Offline E2K

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #53 on: January 30, 2014, 11:43:38 am »
Brendan has said that Liverpool learned from the Villa game (he might have added that we learned from the game at Goodison as well). I really hope that’s true and that the differences in performance (and, crucially, result) weren’t simply a mirror-image of the differences in personnel between Everton and Villa, not to mention the latter’s, shall we say, ‘unique’ ability to be as effective on the road as they are ineffective at home. I don’t know, to be honest, and frankly I can’t be arsed being too analytical after a night like that. Certainly Liverpool looked a lot stronger against Villa after the comparatively slow target man-type Holt came on for Agbonlahor, who had obliterated the Liverpool back-four with his pace in the early part of that game. Once he came off, that was kind of it for Villa as an attacking force and you’d be entitled to wonder whether the similarly uninspiring and enforced Naismith-for-Lukaku change (the latter having scored twice and generally caused utter consternation against Liverpool in the first Derby this season) did for Everton in a similar manner.

Nonetheless, there was definitely something different about how the home side approached this game, and it doesn’t take much of an imagination to picture Rodgers looking at Everton’s marauding full-backs and pinpointing it as a weakness that could be completely and mercilessly exploited to the fullest with the pace of Sturridge, Suárez and Sterling, together with the vision and creativity of Coutinho (especially with a young centre-back lining up on the right). On that point, maybe Martinez stuck to his principles a little too rigidly and should have adopted a slightly more defensive approach, but then it worked for him at Old Trafford and the Emirates. Nor are Everton the most mobile through the middle. Sturridge and Suárez tormented Alcaraz and Jagielka all night, and the sight of them chasing and failing to catch the Uruguayan in a straight footrace over more than half of the Anfield pitch was telling. Similarly, Barry and McCarthy struggled to come to grips with the speed and imagination of the home side. Barry, in particular, threw in some clumsy challenges that called to mind a player who just couldn’t handle the pace of his opponents.

It’s also clear that Liverpool were determined to give their opponents less space in midfield than they had afforded Villa, although the necessity for such a change would have been painfully obvious to anyone who had watched Benteke, Agbonlahor and Weimann run amok ten days earlier. As a result, Liverpool (and not for the first time under Rodgers – see Manchester United earlier in the season) dropped deeper for long periods in a game at home and were content to allow their opponents the lion’s share of possession. The thing is, if you go back and look at the United game from the start of the season, Liverpool  could get very little going on the counter in an attacking sense in the second-half. Granted, Sturridge was carrying an injury and Suárez was suspended, but it was backs-to-the-wall stuff for a long time and we all said that Rodgers’ team would need to develop the ability to break on opponents before they could truly challenge for the top-four. Well, wow. The sight of Sktrel, of all people (twice), and Flanagan winning balls on the edge of their own box, then stepping out with confidence and proceeding to maraud forward with intent told you all you needed to know about how far this team has come. I know it was 4-0 at the time, but Skrtel was in the Everton penalty area when Howard took down Sterling. Martin Skrtel. I swear, I was having visions of that Tony Adams goal for Arsenal (also against Everton) back in 1998 when he went running through the middle and finished with a glorious left-foot volley (had that happened, I think the away end would have collapsed in on itself).

To be honest, in a season that’s seen Liverpool use variations of 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-2 and 3-5-2, play both possession football and counter-attacking football, and withstand the long-term absences of, at various times, Sturridge, Suárez, Gerrard, Coutinho, Johnson, Lucas, Agger, Sakho, Enrique and Allen, often having to use players out of position, the ability to adapt has become one of the most impressive (and exciting) features of Brendan Rodgers’ Liverpool. With a relatively poor bench, and therefore little in the way of personnel to engineer an overarching ‘Plan B’ if it was needed, and against a team that had only lost twice all season, Liverpool were as clinical and merciless as I’ve ever seen them. Fuck it, it was beautiful. With an identical team to the one that disappointed for large portions of the game against Villa, enough tweaks were made to ensure that it wasn’t about to happen again and it led to Liverpool’s biggest Derby win in 32 years while missing arguably the entirety of their first-choice back-four (Johnson, Agger, Sakho, Enrique) and a key performer in midfield (Lucas).

There’s nothing more terrifying than a team that can beat you in a number of different ways, that can change tactical approaches and pinpoint your weaknesses almost imperceptibly. You want to play possession football? Ok, play possession football, but be careful not to leave the backdoor unlocked because we’ll destroy you on the break. You want to park the bus? Well fuck, thanks for all the possession, Suárez and Coutinho with the ball at their feet for 90 minutes, are you mental? Liverpool aren’t there yet, clearly the squad needs improvement and defensively there will still be question-marks, and City, Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea are all to come at Anfield. I still believe that Rodgers, at financial disadvantages of varying degrees to at least five of his rivals (e.g. each of City's front-six against Spurs last night, and substitute Jovetic, cost over £20m - with a full-strength team, Liverpool have one player who cost that much) and working with owners who are determined to find reason in madness (i.e. value in the transfer market), has arguably the toughest task that any Liverpool boss has ever had, but inside 18 months, I personally couldn’t have imagined this level of improvement. And regardless of how many injuries Everton had or how badly we played for large periods against Villa, my gut-feeling is that past Liverpool vintages would have lost the Villa game 1-2 and drawn 0-0 with Everton. That’s not happening anymore and it’s exciting, isn’t it?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 11:47:33 am by E2K »
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #54 on: January 30, 2014, 12:07:40 pm »
That’s not happening anymore and it’s exciting, isn’t it?

It is exciting.  We do have different tactics but I think we've tried the rope a dope many times this season. The problem has been we have not been good enough at controlling the opposition to make it work and we've tended to lose momentum and intensity in our play when we've sat back and gifted the opposition momentum. Our goals against record is not inspiring and for me we do gift up too many chances to feel comfortable. The gaps I think were covered up by the occasion, the adrenalin - Coutinho was tackling back brilliantly, Sterling and Suarez were both very deep working hard, Sturridge too (although we may want to re-think just how deep given that cross field ball....) tactical absolutely but for me it was the application which made the difference and I'm not sure we can expect that intensity every game wonderful as it would be 


I know where your coming from Vulmea. I remember watching us in the 80's when teams would come to Anfield and not get a shot. The control of the game was complete.  That is how I was brought up to view "controlling the game".

I remember watching is play Coventry in a game where we won 4-0, and their goalkeeper was man of the match - by a mile. He made about a dozen unbelievable stops. At the time Coventry were mid table - they weren't awful but they didn't see the ball for 90 minutes.

Liverpool don't play that brand of football now, they can't and perhaps more importantly they shouldn't be aiming to do that with this group of players. Squeezing the play into the opponents half for 90 minutes is an invitation for opponents to park the bus, and try to hit us on the counter.

I liked Jocky Hansen's comment "Every time Everton attacked I thought Liverpool would score."  This is the ideal for us today.

 your right that was exactly where I was coming from and your also right about whether its relevant anymore - I am looking for perfection I guess - the attacking verve and the defensive solidity
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Offline Danny_

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2014, 12:22:18 pm »
The biggest

Coutinho's New Role

He was key, his role was key and his performance was key.

With our depleted midfield options, the possibility of Coutinho playing in a three as one of the two offensive midfielders has been at the forefront of a lot of minds recently, mine included. This performance could indicate where Coutinho's long term future at Liverpool lies.

This role takes advantage of Coutinho's ability to operate in tight spaces with little time, whilst under pressure but it also drastically reduces the expectancy to create or score goals, not a bad thing when he hasn't been as prolific as last season. He looked more at ease and freer than he has all season, maybe playing as left forward has been more a burden in recent games than a more withdrawn role.

His proficiency in this position meant that the three man midfield worked, because as others having pointed out, he pulled his defensive weight (5 tackles, blocked 1 shot). When our midfield works, usually our team works and that was the story here. Offensively, Coutinho seemed to be the key, he completed the most passes in our team (45 passes in 79 minutes).


Good summary of the most critical thing (IMHO) to come out of the derby - the revelation that Coutinho can play the advanced midfield role for us and maybe, it's his best position.  We won't know from one game - BR might have caught Everton by surprise with this.  From this point onwards, teams will start preparing to deal with it and we will see if it is going to be a long term solution or not.

I don't think I can add anything to what you said other than I think he is just as dangerous in terms of 'creating goals' from this position (maybe even more dangerous) because he gets the ball earlier and we all know about his ability to unlock a defence.  Not only does it add this element but it also takes some pressure off Gerrard as now, the opposition have two deep threats to worry about in addition to the front 3.  The biggest question is whether our midfield will have enough steel in it (but if we have the ball most of the time, maybe, the thinking is that this doesn't matter as much).   

Offline JackWard33

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2014, 01:15:36 pm »
@Vulmea you're not in a minority of one - I still have many of the same reservations despite the elation of the win

Judging SG and where he should play from the derby is always going to be a pointless exercise - he's always ludicrously up for it and usually gives a motm type performance
We should enjoy it but probably reserve debate about the future use of him

You're right that Everton had far more of the game than the score reflects - they also created some really good space and openings. the fact they had 4 shots on target has more to do with some of their shooting and decision making
The team that sprung to mind when watching the game back were Atletico Madrid who have regularly won games with 40% possession this season. Dropping off and 'shelling' a lot and then utterly murderous on the counter attack
Our scheme worked brilliantly when we were ahead as we are just so ridiculously good on the counter - whether it will work as well when we're 0-0 away at WBA is a conversation for a different day

But yeah great win, great forward play but it doesn't really change / lessen the problems with our midfield going forward
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 01:18:40 pm by JackWard33 »

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2014, 01:28:07 pm »
Quote
The sight of Sktrel, of all people (twice), and Flanagan winning balls on the edge of their own box, then stepping out with confidence and proceeding to maraud forward with intent told you all you needed to know about how far this team has come. I know it was 4-0 at the time, but Skrtel was in the Everton penalty area when Howard took down Sterling. Martin Skrtel.
That memory came to mind when Roy described the night as bonkers.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2014, 01:39:30 pm »
After each goal we seemed to become more and more withdrawn into our own third, I really don't see a problem with dropping deeper after going 2 or 3 goals up and then just countering. It's not surprise but we are a lot more solid defensively and it provides huge amounts of space for our attackers to exploit when we win the ball back.

At the start it looked we were doing a 1/2 press on Everton, do we really need to do that when the game is already won? From a fitness and tactical point of view, I thought sitting back and letting Everton "control" the game was perfectly fine and it's something we've done to great effect this season.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2014, 01:42:46 pm »
While there are a few raising Liverpool weaknesses in midfield/defence (concerns which I do share) this tends to put to one side Liverpools lethality in attack.

Witness Everton the other night, 60% odd possession and nothing of note, at all, does this remind anyone of us last year ?

Clearly we have given a degree of solidity and possession to be a team brim full of threat and danger, in my opinion, outside of my loyalties, the most potent attacking team in the league, including City and the great thing is we are never beaten, full of goals every game.
I know which I would rather have.
This isn't merely Suarez, as some will no doubt say, but Surridge Sterling, Henderson the 3 best up and coming English players in the league, Coutinho for the vision.

We haven't had this excitement for many a long year, superb.
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Offline TheDarkKnight

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #60 on: January 30, 2014, 05:23:53 pm »
Not going to lie, I went in to the game less confident than I ever had before in a derby game at Anfield. I just thought that, with us putting out 3/4ths of the defence that leaked eight goals in three games against Hull, Stoke and Aston Villa against an impressive Everton attack would cause us all kinds of problems and that our having a two man midfield against their three would result in them overrunning us time and time again. I'm not normally a negative Nancy, but I truly was shitting it on Tuesday afternoon.

After the game though I had heaps of praise for the team but also for Brendan Rodgers. I guess I was worried he would be naive and have us set up similarly to the Villa game thinking it was just a blip but he got his tactics and team selection spot on. Was able to get our four best attacking players but remain very disciplined, which takes some doing. Sterling and Coutinho stuck to their defensive tasks throughout which was great to see, and Suarez/Sturridge likewise whenever they swapped positions. Rodgers obviously expected Everton to come flying at us and so he responded by playing a system that meant the likes of Cissokho and Gerrard weren't exposed (unlike vs Villa) while allowing us to hit them devastatingly on the counter. Top marks for the boss for Tuesday's showing.

The team were brilliant and rightly get lots of credit too. The attackers did their main task of scoring goals while contributing defensively, the midfielders linked the play very well all night as well as keeping their shape far better than I anticipated and the defence, partly due to being well protected but also down to their own solidity limited Everton to only one or two genuine chances.

I'm intrigued to see how we play at West Brom on Sunday, given their manager comes with a reputation of employing a high pressing game. You would expect him to adjust to us in accord, however, because their defenders are pretty damn slow and our players thrive off teams that play with high lines. We've come a long way since the Southampton game earlier in the season, a time when we looked uncomfortable whenever a team played in our faces/with a high line (I realise we were without natural full-backs and Coutinho & Suarez, but the point remains). Our wins at Tottenham and against Everton in particular though show we are every bit as good, if not moreso, when playing with more of an emphasis on direct attacking play rather than the possession game which perhaps we don't yet have the personnel for to use successfully against certain sides.

Considering I felt fairly negative prior to the derby, it is quite amazing the turnaround that win has done for my personal belief in us. Get one or two new players in for extra competition and options, keep the front two fit and we really should be getting top four (at least).

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #61 on: January 30, 2014, 05:42:33 pm »

Judging SG and where he should play from the derby is always going to be a pointless exercise - he's always ludicrously up for it and usually gives a motm type performance
We should enjoy it but probably reserve debate about the future use of him


Surely the key difference here is that he was playing a very different role. The criticism of Gerrard as a more defensive midfielder has been that he is fundamentally incapable of playing there, that he is too prone to charging forwards, that he lacks the tactical discipline for the part.

So while I agree that one swallow doesn't make a summer, this game must fundamentally change that debate. We have now all seen that he can in fact purge that gung ho instinct, and if he can show tactical discipline in the derby then he can surely do it the rest of the season too.
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #62 on: January 30, 2014, 06:33:31 pm »
Surely the key difference here is that he was playing a very different role. The criticism of Gerrard as a more defensive midfielder has been that he is fundamentally incapable of playing there, that he is too prone to charging forwards, that he lacks the tactical discipline for the part.

So while I agree that one swallow doesn't make a summer, this game must fundamentally change that debate. We have now all seen that he can in fact purge that gung ho instinct, and if he can show tactical discipline in the derby then he can surely do it the rest of the season too.

We've had examples of a deep, disciplined Gerrard at times throughout his career, including under Rafa, but it's not prevented some saying he can't do it within a few days.
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2014, 09:12:54 pm »

Great points already given above - personally I agree with Vulmea's post most.

Just like to say that if the crowd was like that for every game it would be worth an extra 12 points a season.
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2014, 09:43:36 pm »
Workrate and quality.

Workrate. We closed down quickly and forced Everton to rush their passes. We didn't give them time to think or to find quality space. Henderson did this as well as anyone but it was evident throughout the team and a good example was Suarez's goal; he forced the mistake and was alert to nick the ball.

Quality. The finishing and coolness of Sturridge and Suarez was a level above what Everton could muster. Neither of Sturridge's goals were easy and he showed how good his finishing is. A lot of players would have missed both chances. In the EPL you need to put your chances away. Suarez's goal was also very well taken. He had an awful lot to do but a player of his quality takes the chance whereas others would have messed up. Lastly SG worked his socks off and took his goal superbly. The quality of these three players and they way they took their goals was the main difference.

I could go through the whole team and praise the work rate and also say that we just had the better players.

However you can have all the possession and huff and puff but you need players like Sturridge and Suarez that make difficult chances appear so easy. The two of them are head and shoulders beyond what Everton have and both took their goals so well. We are so fortunate to have two players that would grace any team in the league.
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2014, 10:17:37 pm »
Surely the key difference here is that he was playing a very different role. The criticism of Gerrard as a more defensive midfielder has been that he is fundamentally incapable of playing there, that he is too prone to charging forwards, that he lacks the tactical discipline for the part.



Aren't the main two worries that his positioning / mobility and general off the ball play aren't good enough and that he takes the 'direct' option too often
The way the game played out (with us shelling for large periods) helped him off the ball as he had less ground to cover and more support

The debate about our midfield construction and SG's use isn't black and white. Clearly he can play almost any position on the pitch to a decent level - the question is what's the best use of him and how does it help us overall
Anyway like I said he did a great job in the derby like he always has and if you didn't enjoy his celebration you need to check for a pulse

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #66 on: January 30, 2014, 10:24:29 pm »
Anyway like I said he did a great job in the derby like he always has and if you didn't enjoy his celebration you need to check for a pulse

Can't argue with that
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #67 on: January 30, 2014, 11:04:08 pm »
I swear, if that penalty had gone in, you'd have seen 7 or 8.
Lots, including myself, saying the same in the pub afterwards. And if there's one criticism, ruthless professionalism was always preferable to sentimentalism, even at 4-0. Too long still to go in the match to be thinking about hat-tricks, and Everton pull one back just afterwards and you never know what happens next....

Glad it didn't come to that, but I want to see a killer instinct for the rest of the season. A real mauling on Tuesday night (ok, it was one anyway), but a proper hammering by 5 or 6 and we would've really dented their confidence for the next few games. I mean, Christ, did you hear the Kop between the 4th goal and the peno?!!! As loud as it's been for a few years and they were on the rack with the 12th man smelling blood (in between hysterical fits of laughter).

Oh and my current favourite player, Mr Daniel Sturridge, should be shot for not passing to Coutinho later on.

Apart from all that, I still haven't stopped smiling. Can't get a certain Boney M tune out of my head, and feel as positive about our top 4 chances as I've done all season. It was a brilliant night that will live long in the memory.

P.S. Sterling and Coutinho, immense performances. Gerrard too.

P.P.S. Catch the friggin thing Simon!

As for Everton? Tragic.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 11:05:40 pm by Red_Mist »

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #68 on: January 30, 2014, 11:44:50 pm »
I agree with bits of what Vulmea says. 4-0 probably flattered us a bit, but in the end, it was practically done by half time. If Lukaku had stayed on, he might have popped up with a goal or two just based on a few chances they had that were crying out for a bit of clinical finishing. The defence did get split open a few times; Cissoko has awful positioning and distribution.

That said, we certainly deserved the win, it was a great performance overall, and an eternity away from Villa. And the Kop was bouncing - it's been a while since I've hugged complete strangers up there!

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2014, 08:23:45 am »
I am interested in the view that Lukaku might have had an impact had he not been nailed by Barry. Talking to blues, including some sensible ones in my family, the opinion seems to have swung away from signing Lukaku. Comments such as "he isn't trying" or "he has all the control of a dustbin" signal that all is not well for the lad. I even heard the line from one bitter "lid" that "Maureen knows what he is doing getting rid, he couldn't wait to get off the pitch- never even tried to run it off." I think Rodgers' set up for the team negated Lukaku, who looked deadly running on to a ball in space both at WBA and earlier in the season for the toffees. His control is not up to the demands of a fast passing game (special grass?) and I think the way we set up left him struggling. In the air, I think he might possibly have had some joy, given the number of crosses swung in, but we will  never know.  :)
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Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2014, 10:33:53 am »
Liverpool A) Dominate possession, create chances, goals
Liverpool B) Manage space, counter attack, goals.

This perfectly sums it up for me. People used to talk about us not having a plan B. It's clear that we are willing to adapt to the teams that come to play us (and also adapt based on lessons learned).  We have made mistakes sometimes in our tactical mindset, but on the whole Rodgers has been damn impressive on this.  So the two options above are pretty much what we try to play.  The only problems come when we try to play the wrong option.

As for the game... wow. Best atmosphere in years. Centre of the Kop, Sturridge's penalty hit the guy in front of me. Just wow!

Like others I was worried about our approach to this game after our struggles against Villa.  However, the switch of Coutinho into a more central position was a real game changer. Some players shy away from a game as intense as a derby, but Coutinho was the embodiment of LFC on Tuesday.  He dropped deep, tracked back, controlled quickly the attacking play and got truly stuck in against a strong and determined Everton midfield.  Combined with Gerrard and Henderson they worked well together in letting Everton have the ball but not do anything with it.

Flanagan was assured and continues to progress far more than many of us expected. I loved his standing ovation. It was larger than the one for Sturridge, such is the love for a Liverpool lad done well.

On Sturridge the man is amazing and, I can't believe I'm saying it, is even out-Suarezing, Suarez. That second goal of his was just madness.  There was a downside in the second half with his determination to get a hat-trick and it detracted from a superb performance. Rodgers was right to sub him and in a way I'm glad they had a little bust up and quick make up as it demonstrates the determination within the squad to win. I like that fire.

Sterling was running riot against the defenders but it didn't really come off for him a lot. He seemed to be lacking a bit of composure with the final ball. Henderson, Toure and Skrtel were all very solid and Mignolet put in a good shot stopping performance.

On Cissokho, I know he gets a lot of stick, and while he did put in some good tackles I still feel he is a weak link in the squad. His passing is laboured and sloppy, plus he was often pulled into the centre leaving his flank exposed. I want him to do well, but his confidence still looks on the floor.

Finally on Gerrard, I guess we've come to expect these performances against Everton, but that shouldn't make it any less impressive.  If anything, knowing how fired up he is for derby games should put him under more pressure as it's guaranteed that he will be targeted. But he thrives on it. Wonderful performance from him and he demonstrated how he can perform in that deeper role with the right level of support around him.

Great performance and I'm happy with us playing to 'plan b' against teams that dominate possession. We did it earlier in the season and it worked well then.

Onwards and upwards.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #71 on: January 31, 2014, 07:52:04 pm »
this was a game we won because of lukaku getting injured and Stones being a moron for me. IDK what Stones was doing on that second goal he was way too high up the pitch. The third goal Howard shouldn't have come out for but the finish was just crazy. The fourth to me just seemed like a classic pressing for a goal oh fuck we lost the ball and its all over goal. This game was about execution for me. We executed our plan perfectly, and Everton didn't. They didn't put enough pressure on cissokho they didn't cover Stones starting his what? 5th game for them? they didn't finish their chances. To be honest we finished a set piece and two wonder goals in the first half. They didn't finish what they started. Lukaku going off was a huge part of that and sturridge and suarez were a huge part of us finishing.
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Offline Almo

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #72 on: January 31, 2014, 11:05:40 pm »
There were a fe hairy moments, especially at 1-0 when they had a great chance to level things up. and i kind of get what Vulmea means about the scoreline not necessarily being reflective of a total control, the magi's are so tight and with the quality we have up top we can capitalise on every error and every chance.

It was an odd game in a way, once the elation had worn off I genuinely felt disappointed we hadn't ended with an epic 6 or 7 nil ( not that 4 isn't pretty epic). If that pen had gone in.....Sturridge really lost his head after that I thought, he was gutted, pleased to see his desire.

I don't know what steroids Sterling has been on but he's suddenly hard as fuck! Muscling people off the ball, defending deep, blistering pace -  the way he just accelerates away from people always gets me excited, and generally just causing havoc all over the pitch. When he learns to finish he really will be a complete player, can't give Rogers enough credit for the way he's developed.

We defended brilliantly as a team and pressed Everton all over the pitch, so they're posession advantage didn't matter, most of the time they weren't doing much with the ball other than just trying to keep hold of it.

I think playing like this will really put the fear into teams, we have the ability now and the calmness in front of goal to punish teams on the break better than anyone else in the league.

Offline Keita Success

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #73 on: February 1, 2014, 08:16:12 am »
Excellent result. Nervous before the game but that was soon put to rest.  :)

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #74 on: February 1, 2014, 10:46:19 am »
Not sure this is totally the right place to post this, but all else relevant is locked.

But, this is brilliant from Rodgers

Quote
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:lmao
« Last Edit: February 1, 2014, 11:58:58 am by Tepid Water »
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #75 on: February 1, 2014, 10:58:24 am »
Not sure this is totally the right place to post this, but all else relevant is locked.

But, this is brilliant from Rodgers

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #76 on: February 1, 2014, 11:19:52 am »
Scoring from the corner was crucial. It enabled us to let Everton have the ball and come at us, which suited our forward line perfectly for the counter attack. This team can now play several different systems with several different approaches. I know some people have said that the game felt uneasy even when we were 2 or 3 up but that was 100% by design from Brendan, we'll have more possession and control when we need to in other games I think.

Our set pieces are a really dangerous and important weapon, this is the best we have been at them for years and years. We're getting a lot of goals these days from corners, free kicks and pens which open up games for us and stop teams parking the bus and keeping things tight. When the opposition have to open up and attack us, we exploit the space they leave brilliantly. We also played the game with such high intensity in the way we pressed Everton, never seen Coutinho so committed in this way for example.

We were always in control of that game, despite not having as much of the ball. Everton were shifted around the pitch by our pressing and we snatched it off them at the right times to devastating effect I thought

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #77 on: February 1, 2014, 11:49:10 am »
Was anything but confident prior to the game, but utterly delighted with how the match unfolded.

The game plan relied heavily on disciplined defending - crucially including our front four. Sterling, Coutinho and Sturridge all contributed massively to that. Which sort of neutralised the dread that had been expressed in countless posts leading up to the game regarding S.G's ability to play in front of the back four, how sorely we would miss Lucas and Allen and our general lack of defensive midfield cover.

The really interesting statistic, given our overall superiority, is the one showing Everton's dominance of possession. The conclusion is that Brendan has definitely developed at least a plan "B", and that those old certainties so many expressed about the need for a defensive midfielder in the window are no longer certainties. Maybe Stoke's pursuit of Lee Cattermole will in years to come be seen as the last time that sort of player commanded the interest of modern coaches?

Finally, I have to mention two players in particular. I have shared the misgivings of so many good judges on here about Martin Skrtel. His level of performance lately has surprised and delighted me. Second, Raheem Sterling; his continued improvement over the past two months is nothing short of sensational. He's 19 FFS, and once his composure and final ball improves - which it will - we will have a truly exceptional player on our hands.
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Offline dast18

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #78 on: February 1, 2014, 01:24:03 pm »
I just realized we had a right side consisting of youngsters Flanagan and Sterling (took a while for it to really sink in  ;D ). In a Merseyside derby against a good Everton side. Both of them were brilliant, and we won 4-0. Only a few years ago they were both playing in the U18s, now they look brilliant in the Premier League. Well done to both of them, the academy, and everyone involved! The future is bright (and red)  :wave
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-0 EFC
« Reply #79 on: February 1, 2014, 01:56:49 pm »
Was really nervous going into this game.

Then Gerrard smashed in a header, wheeled away with a crazy look and I thought to myself, this is going to be one of those games where we annihilate the opposition.

Bang, bang. 3-0 Sturridge 2 goals in the space of 4 minutes or so.

Gutted that Sturridge missed that penalty. If it had gone in, and made it 5-0, I'd expect we'd steamroll forward and win 6 or 7-0. Can you imagine that?

Wonderful result, though. Just what we needed.