Topic: Tories really really aren't very nice at all are they? (***)

[cloggypop]

The actual twitter account of the actual person isn't a reliable source now?

It's as direct as you can get.

[ShakaHislop]

Nice strawman. Claiming that BBC journalists are generally left leaning off camera, is very different to claiming that all BBC journalists are left learning. You have introduced a bizarre absolute.

There are right wing people at the Beeb. There are left wing people. A sample of one proves nothing bar you ignorance of statistics and probability.

I may as well say, McDonnell is a Marxist, therefore all MPs are Marxists. It is patronising gibberish. But then it is sourced from Twitter. Please don't copy and paste Twitter, if it is worth saying, find your own words to express it, and find a decent source.

There's no strawman. There are people who think the BBC is full of lefties and that their bias is reflected in the BBC's output. I don't think a particularly tribal leftie would take up the Director of Communications post for a Tory PM, yet Gibb was the editor of one of the BBC's prominent political brands. All I'm saying is that this one, particular event doesn't support the theory of left-wing bias at the BBC.

[Alan_X]

Really the only reason this is happening is because of Labour and Jeremys leadership.

Hes totally changed British politics even if you still get the odd death twitch from new Labour.

Remind me what's changed?

[Alan_X]

There's no strawman. There are people who think the BBC is full of lefties and that their bias is reflected in the BBC's output. I don't think a particularly tribal leftie would take up the Director of Communications post for a Tory PM, yet Gibb was the editor of one of the BBC's prominent political brands. All I'm saying is that this one, particular event doesn't support the theory of left-wing bias at the BBC.

That's not what Jon was saying - he didn't claim they are all lefties - he said that there are lefties and right-wingers.

[Zeb]

Citizen's Advice has released a report on Universal Credit. It's not news to those who've followed IDS' folly the past few years, but it's again highlighting the problems it's causing even in these initial phases of being introduced with its assumption that forcing people to wait 5 weeks (by design) for unemployment or sickness benefits is a Good Thing.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/06/universal-credit-rollout-should-be-delayed-as-it-is-failing-too-many-people

David Gauke, the new work and pensions secretary, has been urged to delay the mass rollout of the new universal credit benefit, after Citizens Advice produced fresh evidence that it is causing debt and financial insecurity among recipients.

The advisory charity surveyed 800 people who sought help with universal credit in pilot areas, finding 39% were waiting more than six weeks to receive their first payment and more than half (57%) were having to borrow money to get by during that time.

The report also detailed problems with the online application system and long waits to get help over the phone. It said nearly a third (30%) of those surveyed said they had to make more than 10 calls to the universal credit helpline during their application process, often having to wait over 30 minutes to get through.

The evidence from Citizens Advice is the latest in a long line of warnings about problems with universal credit, which involves wrapping six existing benefits into a single monthly payment.

Around two-fifths of the payments go to people in work rather than those who are unemployed, as it includes recipients of tax credits and housing benefit, as well as jobseeker’s allowance and disability benefits. The benefit is currently paid to around 530,000 people in trial areas but it this number will rise sharply in the autumn, when it is due to be rolled out to 50 new areas.

Earlier this year former welfare minister Lord Freud admitted to MPs that administrative problems and design issues with universal credit were causing about one in four low-income tenants to run up rent arrears, putting them at risk of eviction.

Freud, who has helped oversee the development of universal credit over the past six years, also suggested that the long formal waiting times faced by claimants before they receive a first payment when they move on to the new benefit should be shortened.

Citizens Advice is now calling not just for a pause in the rollout of universal credit until its problems are fixed but a reduction in the time period that people have to wait for their first payment and greater awareness of advance payment for those who cannot cope with delays.

BBC has interviewed some of those in the trial areas, and they tell stories of becoming reliant on charitable provision, such as food banks, because of the delays for payments to come through. Going without any income for 6 to 8 weeks would be tough for a lot of people and forcing the most vulnerable to do that has very predictable effects. Even more so because the safety net for such issues, provision such as crisis loans, have been smashed by central government decisions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40528119/the-food-bank-has-been-a-lifeline-after-universal-credit-problems

[Trada]

Its strange how some Tories seem to be trying to turn Rees-Mogg into some kind of posh cult of the common man hero.

They seemed to have moved on from Boris.

When he talks a load of bollocks saying things like HS2 should be scraped but he voted for it. The cuts must stay in place but then saying we will be £10 Billion a year better off if we leave the EU.

Sad really thats all the Tories seem to have left trying to start Moggmania.

[Libertine]

Its strange how some Tories seem to be trying to turn Rees-Mogg into some kind of posh cult of the common man hero.

They seemed to have moved on from Boris.

When he talks a load of bollocks saying things like HS2 should be scraped but he voted for it. The cuts must stay in place but then saying we will be £10 Billion a year better off if we leave the EU.

Sad really thats all the Tories seem to have left trying to start Moggmania.

The politics of the personality cult, eh?

Definitely something we'd want to avoid....

[killer-heels]

Its strange how some Tories seem to be trying to turn Rees-Mogg into some kind of posh cult of the common man hero.

They seemed to have moved on from Boris.

When he talks a load of bollocks saying things like HS2 should be scraped but he voted for it. The cuts must stay in place but then saying we will be £10 Billion a year better off if we leave the EU.

Sad really thats all the Tories seem to have left trying to start Moggmania.

Mogg mania is great because him become PM will definitely mean the Tories get kicked out next time. But its only some grassrooters trying it on for a bit of a laugh. Even the Tories are not stupid enough to choose him as their leader.

[Trada]

Mogg mania is great because him become PM will definitely mean the Tories get kicked out next time. But its only some grassrooters trying it on for a bit of a laugh. Even the Tories are not stupid enough to choose him as their leader.

I was watching one of the News channels the other day, might had been one of the political programs and they did a piece on Moggmania.

Its something the media are trying to push as a kind of answer to Corybn.

Put the the thing that hooked people onto Jeremy first was his policies and it went on from there.

[Craig S]

2 students. 1 from a poor background and 1 from a richer background. Both earn the same money but according to the IFS, the poorer one will pay more back.

Surely that's because one of them doesn't even need to take the loan to pay for their fees? Unless you force every student to take out a loan, even if they have the cash upfront to pay.

I think what Martin Lewis is suggesting is changing it to Student Contribution and every graduate pays a small set % of income over a certain threshold for x years. That would be a fairer way of funding further education and would remove the stigma associated with debt (even though you may ultimately pay more than loan repayments).

[killer-heels]

Surely that's because one of them doesn't even need to take the loan to pay for their fees? Unless you force every student to take out a loan, even if they have the cash upfront to pay.

I think what Martin Lewis is suggesting is changing it to Student Contribution and every graduate pays a small set % of income over a certain threshold for x years. That would be a fairer way of funding further education and would remove the stigma associated with debt (even though you may ultimately pay more than loan repayments).

Its because the poorer student needs to take out a bigger loan due to the maintence grants being scrapped. Martin Lewis is applying a logic of this being not a proper debt but instead a contribution which is right but he is not seperating the difference in rich and poorer students in equivalent jobs.

But then again poorer students dont get as good jobs with as high pay, so whats the problem i guess.

[SP]

Surely that's because one of them doesn't even need to take the loan to pay for their fees? Unless you force every student to take out a loan, even if they have the cash upfront to pay.

I think what Martin Lewis is suggesting is changing it to Student Contribution and every graduate pays a small set % of income over a certain threshold for x years. That would be a fairer way of funding further education and would remove the stigma associated with debt (even though you may ultimately pay more than loan repayments).

That only works if they keep living in the U.K. That scheme would incentivise graduates to work and pay tax abroad. Under the current system they would still make payments. Under that system they would not. As a country we do not want the tax system to incentivise the brightest to leave.

[Craig S]

That only works if they keep living in the U.K. That scheme would incentivise graduates to work and pay tax abroad. Under the current system they would still make payments. Under that system they would not. As a country we do not want the tax system to incentivise the brightest to leave.

Very good point. How does it work now for a graduate not on PAYE, do they self certify?

[Inpeace]

Very good point. How does it work now for a graduate not on PAYE, do they self certify?

Never used to bother chasing you, now they try but rely on you to declare and send, will be even harder come BREXIT.

So this proposed change will have little impact on brain drain.

[John C]

She pointed out that Labour had “already lost someone to hatred” when Jo Cox was murdered by a far-right extremist last year.

I still haven't got over the Tories cheering winning the vote on the public sector pay cap which illustrated their inveterate disdain towards the public sector and I thought about Jo Cox today and how on the evening of her death the news espoused it would create a lasting change in politics altogether.

Unfortunately it didn't. The pernicious party prevailed, this fucking country entrusted a bunch of fucking c*nts.

[Trada]

They are saying that there are some leaked documents going around that the Tories are saying they have to learn from Momentum and the impact they had on the election.

And they are going to try to start their own local activists groups, trying to copy them.

Good luck with that.

[TepidT2O]

They are saying that there are some leaked documents going around that the Tories are saying they have to learn from Momentum and the impact they had on the election.

And they are going to try to start their own local activists groups, trying to copy them.

Good luck with that.

Yep, a bit of causal antisemitism seems to go down well with the masses...

Astonished me they've not made any genuine efforts to stop it

[Zeb]

Just another brief detour into the world of disability and the DWP. You'll probably all hear a lot about 'Work Conversations' over the next few months as people get pushed into them. When a disabled person gets put onto ESA (the benefit if you're unable to work due to ill health), they'll be expected (ie sanctioned if they don't attend) to head to one of the remaining job centres and partake (ie sanctioned if they don't) in a conversation based upon what's stopping them from working and how to fix it (no sanctions if you don't do this bit afterwards).

The whole thing is based upon the idea that the real problem with disabled people is that they just aren't positive enough. They don't have the right mindset to go to work. A growth mindset. This is the highly scientific evidence used to train Work Coaches in this concept:



Source

See the yellow blobs? They happen when you have a growth mindset.

It's like a really shite version of CBT but with added potential for really damaging people by placing them within a set of false assumptions.

Dr.Jay Watts, consultant clinical psychologist, has described the dangers in terms of mental health: "Guilt and shame are central to so many mental health problems (and obviously the governmental discourse have made many claimants feel like this). This form [used in the conversation] will press on those emotions, making life more unbearable and increasing suicide risk. The suggestions in the form that this is not for now will not help. They set up a trajectory of moving to work which is not achievable for many, making people feel they do not have a worth otherwise. This is not only unethical but will end up increasing healthcare costs."

As I said, expect to hear more about this as people get sanctioned for being too ill to attend, too ill to have the conversation, and need help after being told that the only problem they have is one they should be able to fix with a quick session of inspiration porn.

[cloggypop]

She wants the other parties not to actually be opposition but to help her out now, including shaping policy.

She's fucking shite.

[Gerry Attrick]

She wants the other parties not to actually be opposition but to help her out now, including shaping policy.

She's fucking shite.

Undoubtedly but I don't actually think asking for help to shape policy is a bad thing. It seems like politics is becoming very entrenched and working with the 'other side' is seen as some sort of sin. I would welcome parties working together if it enables more progressive policies to get through the HOC.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Undoubtedly but I don't actually think asking for help to shape policy is a bad thing. It seems like politics is becoming very entrenched and working with the 'other side' is seen as some sort of sin. I would welcome parties working together if it enables more progressive policies to get through the HOC.

Its a nice idea, parties working together, compromising and getting the best outcome for the country, but you can't trust the Tories.

She's clearly trying to get Labour to declare what their position actually is, so that they can't sit on the fence any longer - and therefore can take blame/lose votes when people find out they're not actually all things to all people.

[Gerry Attrick]

Its a nice idea, parties working together, compromising and getting the best outcome for the country, but you can't trust the Tories.

She's clearly trying to get Labour to declare what their position actually is, so that they can't sit on the fence any longer - and therefore can take blame/lose votes when people find out they're not actually all things to all people.

True, I just wish parties would actually work together for the benefit of everybody instead of looking to get one up on each other whenever they have an opportunity. I've started to become quite disillusioned with it all to be honest.

[killer-heels]

True, I just wish parties would actually work together for the benefit of everybody instead of looking to get one up on each other whenever they have an opportunity. I've started to become quite disillusioned with it all to be honest.

No way should Labour work with the Tories. Fuck off should be the stock answer. This is clearly a stitch up plan by the Tories to out Labour in several areas.

[cloggypop]

Either that or they have genuinely run out of ideas.

[killer-heels]

Either that or they have genuinely run out of ideas.

They have run out of ideas. But they do want to take down Labour. Just look at the Telegraph and how they see this as an opportunity to deliberately damage Labour by working with them. Labour should not entertain this idea whatsoever.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

They have run out of ideas. But they do want to take down Labour. Just look at the Telegraph and how they see this as an opportunity to deliberately damage Labour by working with them. Labour should not entertain this idea whatsoever.

And then they'll blame Labour for not working with them, if the deal goes south. 'Well if only those nasty Labour MPs had worked with us, we'd have got a better deal for Britain...they're traitors/saboteurs/Commies'

Win-win for the Tories. The fucking twats.

[hide5seek]

And then they'll blame Labour for not working with them, if the deal goes south. 'Well if only those nasty Labour MPs had worked with us, we'd have got a better deal for Britain...they're traitors/saboteurs/Commies'

Win-win for the Tories. The fucking twats.

Not if Labour play it smart.

[TepidT2O]

She wants the other parties not to actually be opposition but to help her out now, including shaping policy.

She's fucking shite.

She is.

And what's worse, there's no one better.  Worse?  Yes, because we are the ones who suffer under such weak leadership.

[stewil007]

Not if Labour play it smart.

if the tories can find £1bn for 10 votes for the DUP, Labour should demand £25bn for their help.

The tories are coming across as weak so Labour either takes a lead role or leaves it to the 'coalition' and whipping the votes to take things forward.  I would go for the latter and let them fall on their sword

[Trada]

Shes being asked to step down.

Tory MP Anne Marie Morris Recorded Saying Brexit No Deal Is A ‘N***** In A Woodpile’

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tory-mp-racist-brexit-recording_uk_59638608e4b02e9bdb0e2c77

[Trada]

May is going to miss PMQs on Wednesday.

[classycarra]

Shes being asked to step down.

Tory MP Anne Marie Morris Recorded Saying Brexit No Deal Is A ‘N***** In A Woodpile’

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tory-mp-racist-brexit-recording_uk_59638608e4b02e9bdb0e2c77

Fucking hell. That's insane. So blasé too. Seeing that she had been recorded saying it had me assuming it was overheard, but she seems to have said it at a public meeting - and other MPs didn't react?!

Is this an old phrase that was used more frequently in previous generations? I've never heard it before, and pretty shocked to hear it bandied about unchallenged as if it was something normal. Not that it would make what she said less terrible, no-one of her generation can pretend to be unaware that it's clearly racist language.

[Trada]

Fucking hell. That's insane. So blasé too. Seeing that she had been recorded saying it had me assuming it was overheard, but she seems to have said it at a public meeting - and other MPs didn't react?!

Is this an old phrase that was used more frequently in previous generations? I've never heard it before, and pretty shocked to hear it bandied about unchallenged as if it was something normal. Not that it would make what she said less terrible, no-one of her generation can pretend to be unaware that it's clearly racist language.

I just checked its a old saying from when slaves used to hide in woodpiles by the side of railtracks.

Its means  "some fact of considerable importance that is not disclosed—something suspicious or wrong".

like what you said Whats strange about what Anne Marie Morris said was that no one at the meeting picked her up for saying the racist slur almost like its normal.

The reporter who recorded it said it was so strange no one at the meeting batted a eyelid when she said it.

[SP]

http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/t_in_content_image/49718_lg%20%281%29_np2jl0.jpg

The phrase has a long history. She is old enough to have heard it used openly in the 70s. But I am surprised that a white politician lacks the nous to never use language like that in public.

[filopastry]

The Tories really are the gift that keeps on giving at present.

[TepidT2O]

She's apologized, but clearly more is needed here...

Perhaps some reconciliation work like Naz Shah?

People have been very quick to call her a racist.  They may be right, but in my experience most people who use this kind of language aren't.  Ignorant?  Thoughtless? Insensitive? Oh yes, but not necessarily racist..

Does she have any form on this sort of thing?  That's possibly important.

What's really bad is that she knows that this language isn't acceptable, but she felt ok to use it where she thought it wouldn't be broadcast.

[Trada]

May has suspended whip from Anne Marie Morris - tory party confirms

[Trada]

And the teachers pay cap stays at 1%

[TepidT2O]

And the teachers pay cap stays at 1%

c*nts.

There's a huge recruitment crisis, can they not see that??
Plus teachers pay has performed worse than any other public servants...

Sigh..

[killer-heels]

She's apologized, but clearly more is needed here...

Perhaps some reconciliation work like Naz Shah?

People have been very quick to call her a racist.  They may be right, but in my experience most people who use this kind of language aren't.  Ignorant?  Thoughtless? Insensitive? Oh yes, but not necessarily racist..

Does she have any form on this sort of thing?  That's possibly important.

What's really bad is that she knows that this language isn't acceptable, but she felt ok to use it where she thought it wouldn't be broadcast.

She needs to be sacked and the Tories will sack her. No way she escapes this with her job still intact.