Author Topic: Lionel Messi  (Read 919131 times)

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7480 on: October 11, 2017, 07:31:35 pm »
Fair enough. I disagree. Curious to know who these players are though?

Messi, C Ronaldo, Cruyff and Di Stefano for starters. Would say Puskas and Beckenbauer too.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7481 on: October 11, 2017, 07:33:50 pm »
Cristiano isn’t even the best Ronaldo never mind being the greatest of all time.

Exactly!

And Messi isn't even the best Argentine player ever.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7482 on: October 11, 2017, 07:37:45 pm »
Exactly!

And Messi isn't even the best Argentine player ever.

and he can’t take penalties for shit.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7483 on: October 11, 2017, 07:37:50 pm »
Exactly!

And Messi isn't even the best Argentine player ever.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7484 on: October 11, 2017, 07:39:17 pm »
Messi, C Ronaldo, Cruyff and Di Stefano for starters. Would say Puskas and Beckenbauer too.

I can't argue that any of them weren't brilliant (I haven't seen/dont know enough about Di Stefano and Puskas tbf, but I know the others were/are absolutely boss). Still disagree mind. Opinions, eh?

Offline Xxavi

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7485 on: October 11, 2017, 08:52:26 pm »
Messi, C Ronaldo, Cruyff and Di Stefano for starters. Would say Puskas and Beckenbauer too.
Great, you can also add other past club greats such as Luis Suarez and Fransisco Gento.

The above players were successful in multiple leagues/clubs and/or have won boatloads of club titles.

Offline trimore

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7486 on: October 12, 2017, 12:28:29 am »
I wouldn't say far better, Messi's had some unbelievably good Argentina teammates over the years.

I remember someone on here saying similar on these hallowed pages not too long ago (seems to be a recurring conversation!). I put it to him that:

a) surely everyone's tired then, so if the midfielders and defenders trying to stop you are equally fatigued surely it cancels out?

and more importantly,

b) why, in recent years, has Muller been his usual workhorse self in 2010 & 2014 yet still been able to play to his really high level in July? Ditto Griezmann in 2016?


I didn't get a reply.


I think I brought this up once with you. So I'll guess I'll try again.

But the answer is midfield always midfield. In most cup games and especially end of season tournaments the midfield rules. The need to control games trumps all. Messi is not much of a workhouse anyways especially when he plays in the midfield, so he's never going to press heavily. For Barcelona as well, he doesn't run around very much he picks his moments for his runs and spends his time just watching the game to find the right space and moment. It conserves energy as well. Messi has a million attributes, but Kuyt-like endless work ethic is something I don't think his body can handle and Messi knows it.

Villa, Griezmann, Muller had amazing midfields. Germany and Spain had midfields that were so good at passing they won games effortlessly, letting the ball do the work for them. Uruguay, Chile and France had midfields that did not play in grueling club seasons and were a lot more physical on the whole (Also Euro 2016 had a dip in quality as well which is true). Argentina has none of that. Their midfield are all overworked, not all that physical and are not like 5 insanely good passers and pressers like the best of what Klopp has done for Liverpool. Enzo Perez is the closest they have in that hardworking but not overworked sweet spot. They have Messi in midfield but he can't do it all on his own. Even this game, Ecuador wasn't exactly locking any doors defensively and Di Maria had his like 1 in every 6 good games for Argentina. All those strikers at that level are only as good as the midfield allows.

For the record, I'd love Messi to 'do' it in the business end of a World Cup, I really enjoying seeing the best players light up the big occasions.

In the end for better or worse, he will never waste pointless energy. He probably just wants to extend his career fo as long as possible at the top level. Totti is his guide in that regard. If the chances are there he takes them. If not it is not going to really force it. Or force it as well as maybe other players in the past. But that's not why people think he is the best ever, if it was just about forcing things on the big occasions even once then the answer is probably the real Ronaldo. But players have burned very close to Ronaldo's brightness and faded away similarly.

People have just never seen this consistency before Messi, in technique, passing and goalscoring ways, and it's not as close regardless of other factors with other players. Though it is hard to say for sure.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7487 on: November 4, 2017, 02:44:20 pm »

Messi's 600th game for Barcelona today (if he plays ;)) - vs Sevilla at home, a 7.45pm ko




source - https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/7aqvs2/messi_on_the_cusp_of_600_appearances_for/
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7488 on: November 4, 2017, 04:08:19 pm »
So where’s he’s going to next season?

City?

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Offline dalarr

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7489 on: November 4, 2017, 04:21:07 pm »
Those stats are unreal. FM regen stuff. I wonder if anyone can come even close in my lifetime.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7490 on: November 4, 2017, 07:31:06 pm »
Those stats are unreal. FM regen stuff. I wonder if anyone can come even close in my lifetime.

Not seeking to derail this thread to that eternal debate, but Ronaldo's stats at Real is probably not that far off. Mind you different talents imo.

Offline dalarr

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7491 on: November 4, 2017, 07:37:25 pm »
Not seeking to derail this thread to that eternal debate, but Ronaldo's stats at Real is probably not that far off. Mind you different talents imo.
You are derailing the thread ;) But you're right, so I'll rephrase: I wonder if anyone apart from Cristiano Ronaldo will come even close to his stats in my lifetime.
« Last Edit: November 4, 2017, 07:44:21 pm by dalarr »

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7492 on: November 5, 2017, 10:30:55 am »
523 goals in 600 games

I rate him as the best ever but never even realised his goals - game ratio was that unreal

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7493 on: November 6, 2017, 05:42:23 pm »
Not seeking to derail this thread to that eternal debate, but Ronaldo's stats at Real is probably not that far off. Mind you different talents imo.

Yeah but his overall club stats pale in comparison to Messi's.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7494 on: November 7, 2017, 10:06:06 am »
Not seeking to derail this thread to that eternal debate, but Ronaldo's stats at Real is probably not that far off. Mind you different talents imo.
It's easy to have better stats when you leave out your whole development period.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7495 on: November 7, 2017, 11:15:19 am »
Aye, from my admittedly quick calculations over the last nine seasons he's gone at over a goal a game  :mindblown
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7496 on: November 7, 2017, 11:16:09 am »
Aye, from my admittedly quick calculations over the last nine seasons he's gone at over a goal a game  :mindblown

He's probably outscored a huge number of teams in Europe in that time.

Offline RedSince86

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7497 on: November 7, 2017, 11:20:38 am »
I just finished Guilleme Balague's autobiography on Messi.

Such a good read.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7498 on: November 8, 2017, 11:02:56 am »
Are people getting giddy about Messi to City for a legitimate reason?

I think I would take Messi at City just to see him in the Premier League.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7499 on: November 8, 2017, 11:07:10 am »
Are people getting giddy about Messi to City for a legitimate reason?

I think I would take Messi at City just to see him in the Premier League.

Do you value seeing him in the Premier League more than you value Liverpool winning the league? Because the more good players they get the less likely it is that we win it.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7500 on: November 8, 2017, 11:12:53 am »
Do you value seeing him in the Premier League more than you value Liverpool winning the league? Because the more good players they get the less likely it is that we win it.

He hasn't won the League in every season he has played - it isn't a given IMO.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7501 on: November 8, 2017, 11:13:31 am »
Lionel Messi is not going to Man City  ;D
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7502 on: November 8, 2017, 11:16:08 am »
Are people getting giddy about Messi to City for a legitimate reason?

I think I would take Messi at City just to see him in the Premier League.

You want one of the best teams in Europe to sign the best player to ever put boots on? Each to their own and all but I don't want him anywhere near this league.

Offline Yiannis

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7503 on: November 8, 2017, 11:16:33 am »
There will always be good enough players in other top teams to win the title regardless Messi coming to England or not. Thing is Liverpool to have at last lots of them to finally win it.
Messi in fact doesn't have a recognizable trait.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7504 on: November 8, 2017, 11:16:49 am »
He hasn't won the League in every season he has played - it isn't a given IMO.

Not a given, but it would certainly make our difficult task even harder.

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7505 on: November 8, 2017, 11:20:01 am »
There will always be good enough players in other top teams to win the title regardless Messi coming to England or not. Thing is Liverpool to have at last lots of them to finally win it.

At this time I don't see a team that would be anywhere near good enough to stop them. La Liga has Real Madrid with a world class player in every position, the Premier League has a bunch of good teams but nothing more. Messi would score at least 30 and assist about 15 more in the Premier League.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7506 on: November 8, 2017, 12:06:34 pm »
I'd love it if barca lost Messi on a free.

Also we shouldn't ever sell a single player to them ever again.
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Offline BigAl24

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7507 on: November 8, 2017, 01:21:26 pm »
Part of me would be excited to see Messi in this league. The sensible part would be gutted as it would wipe out any chances of us/anyone winning the Premier League for the next 3-4 seasons.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7508 on: November 8, 2017, 02:04:43 pm »
Part of me would be excited to see Messi in this league. The sensible part would be gutted as it would wipe out any chances of us/anyone winning the Premier League for the next 3-4 seasons.

If City keep this up we're at that point anyway. Also if we can't win it I prefer a plastic club to win. Doesn't seem like a real deserved win. So doesn't annoy me as much. I mean it should annoy me more, but have to say I hate utd winning the league so much.
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Offline BigAl24

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7509 on: November 8, 2017, 02:25:38 pm »
If City keep this up we're at that point anyway. Also if we can't win it I prefer a plastic club to win. Doesn't seem like a real deserved win. So doesn't annoy me as much. I mean it should annoy me more, but have to say I hate utd winning the league so much.

I'm with you there mate.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7510 on: November 10, 2017, 08:54:24 am »
Messi, C Ronaldo, Cruyff and Di Stefano for starters. Would say Puskas and Beckenbauer too.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7511 on: November 10, 2017, 10:28:59 am »
Messi, C Ronaldo, Cruyff and Di Stefano for starters. Would say Puskas and Beckenbauer too.

Iniesta too. The most underrated player in history.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7512 on: November 10, 2017, 10:52:40 am »
He's staying at Barca and then going back to Newell's when he's like 34/35. No chance of moving to Man City.

Offline Rysoph76

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7513 on: November 10, 2017, 10:53:21 am »
If City keep this up we're at that point anyway. Also if we can't win it I prefer a plastic club to win. Doesn't seem like a real deserved win. So doesn't annoy me as much. I mean it should annoy me more, but have to say I hate utd winning the league so much.

I feel completely the same. I really couldn't care less about City, they just aren't even on my radar. I watch as much football as I can but to be honest I don't even watch their games (unless they are playing a 'big' team) when they are on as I just don't care. If we can't win the league for the next 3 or 4 years, i'd be gutted for us but as long as they win it I won't be that arsed as it will mean United haven't won it either The funny thing is with City is that the impression I get from most old school City fans is that as much as they can enjoy the football, part of them wishes they could go back to the old days when they were a proper team and had highs and lows.
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Offline Jookie

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7514 on: November 10, 2017, 11:08:01 am »
Iniesta too. The most underrated player in history.

Iniesta is one of the best players of the last 20 years.

But he's not even on the same planet as Diego Maradona. Not even close.

The best players in my lifetime are Messi, C.Ronaldo, Zidane, Maradona and Ronaldo. It's obvious that Zidane and Brazilian Ronaldo are 4th and 5th on that list. The other 3 are really close. Though obviously some of the best players of all time, the likes of  Iniesta, Xavi, Figo, Batistuta, van Basten, Sammer, Nedved, Gerrard etc.. sit a rung below that.

The pros for Messi and Ronaldo are their goalscoring stats and the amount of trophies that they've won.

For Maradonna, he won a lot less and his stats are no way near as impressive. However, theres a context. Serie A in the late 80's and early 90's was a way superior league than La Liga is now. Ceraintly in terms of depth of quality.  If you are under the age of 30, than  go and have a look at the squads from Serie A teams at that time. It's probably relatively easy to make the argument that 7 or 8 of the best 10 squads in Europe were playing in that league. Milan, Juventus, Roma, Inter, Napoli, Sampdoria all had amazing squads. At times Fiorentina, Verona, Torino and Atalanta had squads that pushed these teams.

Diego Maradonna was not playing for a Serie A superpower. He wasn't playing alongside a group of mugs either. However, it would be like him playing for Everton now and them winning the league twice and the UEFA Cup (when it was arguably the hardest European trophy to win) in the space of about 4 seasons. He took a good team, in probably the strongest domestic European competition I've ever known, and elevated them to being the best. Not once but twice.

Could Messi or Ronaldo do this domestically? Who knows. They've both played the majority of their career at teams who are stacked with amazing players. Playing in leagues and competitions were the differential in quality between the best teams and even those coming 5th or 6th is a chasm. That's not meant to be a criticism of either player. It's context when you just compare stats between the players. The other difference is that Maradona had to deal with a serious level of physical abuse on the football field. If he played in this era, where attackers are protected, who knows how good he'd be. Would be interesting to see how Messi and C.Ronaldo fared if they were getting assaulted on the pitch nearly every game.

The more level playing field is when comparing international football. Maradona has the clear edge over the other 2. He dominated a World Cup like no-one has done since. If you weren't around in 1986 then go and watch what he did. Again he took a slightly above average team and his performances lifted them to World Champions. These weren't just any ordinary performances. These were back to back out of this world performances over the course of a World Cup. Arguably his weakest game was the final against West Germany.

Messi and C.Ronaldo have not had the same influence on a World Cup. Even Portugal's European Championship win was not dominated by C.Ronaldo performances.

I suppose my over arching point is that Maradona is easily on the same level as Messi and C.Ronaldo. Those 3 are easily the best 3 players of the last 30 odd years. Maradona's stats and medal haul don't compare but his individual contribution to what he did win was absolutely phenomenal. The teams he played for would have won nothing without him. Can you really make the same argument for the teams Messi and Ronaldo have played for?

It's easy to make an argument that Messi and C.Ronaldo are the greatest players of the last 30 years. Are they better than Maradona? Arguably so.

Iniesta or anyone else over the past 30-40 years? No fucking way. If you think so then you are either too young to remember Maradona or don't understand the context of how he dragged teams to unbelievable feats.
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Offline Rysoph76

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7515 on: November 10, 2017, 11:19:21 am »
Iniesta or anyone else over the past 30-40 years? No fucking way. If you think so then you are either too young to remember Maradona or don't understand the context of how he dragged teams to unbelievable feats.

Good post. I'm inclined to agree with you on Maradona. I'm 41 and so was 10 when he dragged Argentina to win the 86 world cup and I was mesmerised by him. For anyone of my age, you must remember these videos



Some of his goals and assists were ridiculous. I used to watch these videos over and over again. There were some fantastic teams and players in the Italian League in them days, you are completely right in that respect, and the overall quality was ridiculous.

I love Messi but for me I would always have Maradona at 1, Messi and 2 and Brazilian Ronaldo at 3 as he was the most naturally gifted footballer I think I have ever seen and, had it not been for injuries, he would have had a legitimate shot at being the greatest ever in my opinion. Just a reminder of his class:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/NC57WLJYmUE" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/NC57WLJYmUE</a>
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 11:26:44 am by Rysoph76 »
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7516 on: November 10, 2017, 11:30:06 am »
Excellent post Jookie.

The best players in my lifetime are Messi, C.Ronaldo, Zidane, Maradona and Ronaldo. It's obvious that Zidane and Brazilian Ronaldo are 4th and 5th on that list. The other 3 are really close. Though obviously some of the best players of all time, the likes of  Iniesta, Xavi, Figo, Batistuta, van Basten, Sammer, Nedved, Gerrard etc.. sit a rung below that.

I'd also include Ronaldinho in that top tier of the last few decades though.

Offline Jookie

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7517 on: November 10, 2017, 11:34:44 am »
For anyone of my age, you must remember these videos


Sgorio on S4C during the late 1980's and early 90's was brilliant.

If you lived in Merseyside you could generally manage to pick up S4C. Think it was 2 hours of Italian and Spanish football highiglts hosted by Arthur Emyr. All in Welsh so you couldn't understand a word they were saying. It was magic though. In an era when you could only watch the very best players every 2 or 4 years at an international competition, Sgorio was an absolute find. As a child/teenager, felt like you were getting a sneak peak into a different footballing world.
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Offline Rysoph76

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7518 on: November 10, 2017, 11:38:39 am »
Sgorio on S4C during the late 1980's and early 90's was brilliant.

If you lived in Merseyside you could generally manage to pick up S4C. Think it was 2 hours of Italian and Spanish football highiglts hosted by Arthur Emyr. All in Welsh so you couldn't understand a word they were saying. It was magic though. In an era when you could only watch the very best players every 2 or 4 years at an international competition, Sgorio was an absolute find. As a child/teenager, felt like you were getting a sneak peak into a different footballing world.

Yes I remember Sgorio. My main memory of Sgorio was watching it and hearing a stream of welsh that I didn't understand and then occasionally the voice would shout IAN RUSH and then back to Welsh for 5 minutes until KEVIN RATCLIFFE or similar. Used to have some good clips on there definitely.
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Offline Jookie

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7519 on: November 10, 2017, 11:41:52 am »
I'd also include Ronaldinho in that top tier of the last few decades though.

Yeah maybe. From the outside his impact on Barcelona in 2003-2006 seemed huge. There's probably other factors but he lifted that club after 3 really poor seasons from their perspective (4th, 4th and 6th league placed finishes between 2000/01 and 2002/03).

I'll have missed other players for sure. Before Messi and C.Ronaldo I always thought Zidane was the best footballer since Diego Maradona. Ronaldo was probably the next best. Both were amazing players. I think Messi and C.Ronaldo have eclipsed both. Not sure many others have eclipsed Zidane and Ronaldo but a few of have got to a similar level.
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