Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1440650 times)

Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22200 on: April 30, 2019, 10:36:15 pm »
This is fun: https://euandi2019.eu

I'll be honest, I got the Greens on 83%, Lib Dems on 74%, ChUK on 64% and Labour on 61%. ;D

Across Europe, my best match are Danish alternatives and Austrian Greens. Never heard of either of them.

Mine's coming back as Tory / Brexit @ 65% and Change UK / Labour / LibDem / Plaid Cymru all @ 64%

 :o
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22201 on: April 30, 2019, 10:54:23 pm »


When I've done similar before, I've matched with the German Greens' voting records in the European Parliament near identically.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22202 on: April 30, 2019, 10:58:34 pm »
Quote
Shadow Trade Minister Barry Gardiner: ‘We will respect the referendum result, we should leave the European Union’

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1123328670871867392

Offline Sangria

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22203 on: April 30, 2019, 11:10:38 pm »
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1123328670871867392
Quote
Shadow Trade Minister Barry Gardiner: ‘We will respect the General Election result, we should support the Conservative government’

N'est-ce pas?
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Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22205 on: April 30, 2019, 11:28:06 pm »
Reading what Labour leaders are saying, I've actually got to the stage where I wonder what the fuck I was ever doing ever even voting Labour.


Surely they can't have always been this fucking stupid or borderline evil?
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22206 on: April 30, 2019, 11:30:57 pm »
Tell me about it, I was a fucking member of this shitshow

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22207 on: April 30, 2019, 11:47:45 pm »
So the Labour party believes we must respect a corrupt advisory referendum the courts would have voided if binding. a corrupt referendum won with a pack of lies, Labour support a policy that will bring decades of Austerity, lack of funding to services, job losses and workers rights.



Shadow Trade Minister Barry Gardiner: ‘We will respect the referendum result, we should leave the European Union’
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22208 on: April 30, 2019, 11:48:11 pm »
Andrew Adonis looks like an even bigger knob today.

Quote
Proud of Labour’s local election campaign - as here in Swindon with me and ⁦@Keir_Starmer⁩. We need to get as many Labour councillors as possible elected to fight austerity & support local communities! The Euro election campaign, & our manifesto, are for after Thursday

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1123308164747812864

Is that when the real fight starts?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 11:49:51 pm by ShakaHislop »

Offline Sangria

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22209 on: May 1, 2019, 12:32:38 am »
So the Labour party believes we must respect a corrupt advisory referendum the courts would have voided if binding. a corrupt referendum won with a pack of lies, Labour support a policy that will bring decades of Austerity, lack of funding to services, job losses and workers rights.



Shadow Trade Minister Barry Gardiner: ‘We will respect the referendum result, we should leave the European Union’

A more accurate quote would be: ‘We will respect Jeremy Corbyn, we should leave the European Union’. That's what it amounts to. We've got to the stage where Corbyn loyalists celebrate every defeat of Remainers. Jeremy Corbyn is the Labour party. The Labour party no longer exists outside Corbyn and his faction. The Labour party no longer supports ideals that exist outside of individuals. There are Corbyn positions, and these are the Labour party positions, and anyone who disagrees is a traitor.
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Offline Trada

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22210 on: May 1, 2019, 01:05:45 am »
You do all realise we are talking about the EU manifesto to vote in MEPs who won't be able to vote for a peoples vote anyway Labour could win every seat in the EU election and it won't change the vote in Parliament.

Where Labour have voted 4 times in favour of a PV and every time it has been defeated.
« Last Edit: May 1, 2019, 01:07:28 am by Big Jezza’s Jizza »
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22211 on: May 1, 2019, 01:29:35 am »
A more accurate quote would be: ‘We will respect Jeremy Corbyn, we should leave the European Union’. That's what it amounts to. We've got to the stage where Corbyn loyalists celebrate every defeat of Remainers. Jeremy Corbyn is the Labour party. The Labour party no longer exists outside Corbyn and his faction. The Labour party no longer supports ideals that exist outside of individuals. There are Corbyn positions, and these are the Labour party positions, and anyone who disagrees is a traitor.
But he's not a dictator though, Labour members will decide Labour policy (well they will be given the opportunity to decide Labour policy when the leadership know they support Corbyns stance) I agree with your point though. hard to believe Labour members applauded Corbyn when he said we must leave the EU even if we know it will bring economic disaster. economic disaster =Job losses, poverty, Austerity and all the other s.. that comes with it. Corbyn is sticking to his word, Corbyn supporters supported him on this, looks like he's delivering.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22212 on: May 1, 2019, 02:57:56 am »
Dunt letting his Labour sympathies cloud his judgment again. As bad as when he tried to spin Labour's policy of ending FOM.

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1123270233312104450

Labour's priority is to get a Brexit deal that is to their liking. I don't see how you can credibly claim a party is not pro-Brexit when delivering Brexit is their priority.
That's not what he means. He's saying that lots of Remainers WILL vote for Labour, whether you like it or not. So if you call Labour a Brexit Party all that will do is give every Leaver the ammunition to say that all those REMAIN voters' votes are actually Brexit votes because they are for a 'Brexit Party'.

The truth is irrelevant; it's how it will be spun that matters. Ergo constantly calling Labour a Brexit Party (even if that's what you believe) will actually be counterproductive.

That's the extent of his point. He has slagged off Labour to the wall and back in his other tweets and articles. But this tweet was a pragmatic point.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22213 on: May 1, 2019, 03:09:29 am »

In reality, as Bradshaw says, there will be no deal with the government, and no Labour government any time soon, so they'll be backing a second referendum. Everything else is there for election purposes. In reality, Labour are doing just fine.
You sure about that?

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1123333794730250241

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22214 on: May 1, 2019, 07:16:14 am »
You sure about that?

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1123333794730250241


Hmm.. politics...

I suspect this is a ploy by one of the partys.  When it all collapses they can say ‘but we were so close, it’s all their fault.’
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Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22215 on: May 1, 2019, 07:53:41 am »
Then voting against Labour in the European elections won't make a blind bit of difference ;). Seriously, though, both sides are just going through the motions, neither of them have any intention of coming up with a deal. Labour especially, given that the government is imploding.

Look, I have no issue with you, you're a Lib Dem supporter and you're trying to convince people to vote Lib Dem. Fair play to you for that.

But let's not pretend it has anything to do with Brexit. Brexit won't be decided at European elections, and probably not even at a general election. It will be decided in a second referendum. So if you want remain to win, you're barking up the wrong tree. You need to start convincing Brexiters to vote remain, rather than trying to convince remainers to vote for another party. And, with this in mind, calling remainer Labour voters stupid can only be counter-productive.

Well Labour are clearly a Remain Party. Corbyn is clearly a Brexit enabler.

If you vote for Labour as a Remainer with Corbyn in charge and you want to have someone represent you then you're an idiot.

The best outcome is that we have a breakaway party that represents Labour views and also represents Remain voters as we don't seem to have that at present.

Corbyn's problem is that given he's so engaged in the idea of Brexit (Something he's been obviously dreaming of since the 70s - look at all his past votes and motions on the subject) that he believes that eventually Remain voters will vote Labour regardless just to get the Tories out. But there are millions of Labour voters that feel betrayed and will fuck him and his party off.

I'd imagine most would return to Labour if he fucked off, but many won't. That he's so keen to drive this wedge into Labour and its voters is something that seems pretty indefensible. His 'Flying colourful glowing magic unicorn' of a fucking 'Labour Brexit' that magics all the 'nasty fings away innit' is so clearly fucking stupid you'd have to be off your chump to agree with it - unless you're a Labour Brexit voter and I think we can all agree they are genuinely as thick as pigshit. Enabling a Tory Brexit that will fuck poor people and the vunerable over for nearly half a century is now somehow good? Really?

Is this what Labour is supposed to stand for fucking over the NHS, Services across the country and people everywhere? And this is a good idea and something we 'should' vote for.

Well, speaking for myself he can fuck off and the horse he rode in on.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22216 on: May 1, 2019, 08:18:45 am »
You do all realise we are talking about the EU manifesto to vote in MEPs who won't be able to vote for a peoples vote anyway Labour could win every seat in the EU election and it won't change the vote in Parliament.

Where Labour have voted 4 times in favour of a PV and every time it has been defeated.

The Tories won 4 general elections in a row between 1979 and 1992, with the last being the highest vote ever. Does this mean we should vote Tory for ever more?

And more recently, the Tories have won 3 general elections in a row: 2010, 2015, 2017. Does this mean we should give up voting non-Tory in the future? After all, Labour could win every MEP election, and it won't change a thing in Parliament.

Corbynites: supporting the Tories since 24th June 2016.
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Offline Devon Red

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22217 on: May 1, 2019, 09:34:52 am »
You do all realise we are talking about the EU manifesto to vote in MEPs who won't be able to vote for a peoples vote anyway Labour could win every seat in the EU election and it won't change the vote in Parliament.

Where Labour have voted 4 times in favour of a PV and every time it has been defeated.

Not true, Labour abstained on the first PV vote and failed to whip the others with any enthusiasm or consequences for the rebels, even on the front bench.

Also bollocks on the manifesto; it's an opportunity to clarify and amend policy, what MEPs can or cannot vote on is not the issue. The manifesto actually puts Labour further away from fully supporting a PV as it once against places barriers. Every time it looks like a PV is the only option left standing the Labour leadership restate the provisos that had previously been proven impossible. A general election is not happening. Why restate it?

Do you not believe Barry Gardiner when he says that Labour will facilitate Brexit? Do you think he's not speaking for the leadership?

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22218 on: May 1, 2019, 10:12:10 am »
That's not what he means. He's saying that lots of Remainers WILL vote for Labour, whether you like it or not. So if you call Labour a Brexit Party all that will do is give every Leaver the ammunition to say that all those REMAIN voters' votes are actually Brexit votes because they are for a 'Brexit Party'.

The truth is irrelevant; it's how it will be spun that matters. Ergo constantly calling Labour a Brexit Party (even if that's what you believe) will actually be counterproductive.

That's the extent of his point. He has slagged off Labour to the wall and back in his other tweets and articles. But this tweet was a pragmatic point.

Labour Remainers voting for a Brexit party is what will give Leavers such ammunition, not the people who will merely point that out (and if fellow Remainers don't as you claim Dunt is suggesting, Leavers will more than happily do so) The phrase "don't shoot the messenger" springs to mind.

I'm sick of mollycoddling voters. If you voted for Brexit and you lose your job over it, it's ultimately your own fault. Likewise, if you vote for Brexit Labour and your vote is, not unreasonably, construed as a vote for Brexit, that's your fault. The pragmatic thing for Remainers is to simply not vote for a Brexit party. If they still aren't prepared to do so, fine but take responsibility for it. If it rains tomorrow, it'll be the fucking fault of non-Labour voting Remainers according to some.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22219 on: May 1, 2019, 10:17:26 am »
I don’t know why we are even discussing this. Labour is a Brexit party. It is constantly throwing up obstacles to a second referendum. And while it may not be agitating for Brexit it is relying on drift to take us there. It’s been doing this since the morning Corbyn wanted A50 triggered.

There is a contradiction of course. Labour voters are mainly Remainers. Labour members are mainly Remainers. Labour MPs are mainly Remainers. Labour’s EU candidates are all Remainers.

But here is the tragedy. It doesn’t matter. If the party was truly democratic it would do of course. But it isn’t. It is actually an oligarchy not a democracy. The voters, the members, the representatives have no say when it comes to the question of Europe. It’s exclusively a matter for Corbyn and the unelected party officers who serve him. They are all ideological Brexiteers and they write policy and decide tactics.

Labour is a Brexit party.

If you’re a Remainer then it’s a bit stupid to vote for them.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22221 on: May 1, 2019, 10:45:05 am »
Disaffiliate Manuel. Unions should be looking after their members first, not the political fortunes of Jeremy Corbyn. Trade unions would carry more clout if they used the political levy to fund their own campaigns, and played hard to get instead of submerging themselves within the Labour Party.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22222 on: May 1, 2019, 11:07:11 am »
This is fun: https://euandi2019.eu

I'll be honest, I got the Greens on 83%, Lib Dems on 74%, ChUK on 64% and Labour on 61%. ;D

Across Europe, my best match are Danish alternatives and Austrian Greens. Never heard of either of them.

I got Scottish Greens at 80% (although I'm not Scottish so can't vote for them), 75% SDLP (not from NI either), Greens and Lib Dems on 73%. Labour, PC and SF all on 70%.

My best matches elsewhere were Irish Greens on 88%, Slovenian Social Democrats on 85%, Danish Alternativet on 84%. Generally it seems I most closely align with Greens and Social Democrats.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22223 on: May 1, 2019, 11:19:54 am »
I like this article from Alex Andreou; https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/05/01/the-remain-tactic-is-now-simple-give-labour-a-bloody-nose

"strategic voting is irrelevant, the number of MEPs is irrelevant, which Remain party you favour is irrelevant, how well Frottage does is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is to show Labour that there is no route to No.10 unless they change tack. The only strategy is to give Labour a bloody nose, in as emphatic a way as possible."


Even if you are a lifelong Labour supporter, even if you will vote for them in local and general elections, even if you support Corbyn's policies - please, if you believe that we are better off in the EU than out, lend your vote at the EU elections to a remain party. It really is the only way to show Labour how much this matters to its voters.

Offline KillieRed

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22224 on: May 1, 2019, 11:40:15 am »
I got Scottish Greens at 80% (although I'm not Scottish so can't vote for them), 75% SDLP (not from NI either), Greens and Lib Dems on 73%. Labour, PC and SF all on 70%.

My best matches elsewhere were Irish Greens on 88%, Slovenian Social Democrats on 85%, Danish Alternativet on 84%. Generally it seems I most closely align with Greens and Social Democrats.

Scottish Greens - 81%
Lib Dems - 80%
Sinn Fein - 78%

The last two being quite a surprise...
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Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22225 on: May 1, 2019, 12:01:38 pm »
Disaffiliate Manuel. Unions should be looking after their members first, not the political fortunes of Jeremy Corbyn. Trade unions would carry more clout if they used the political levy to fund their own campaigns, and played hard to get instead of submerging themselves within the Labour Party.

What really sticks in my throat is that when the Labour Leadership election took place in 2015, most sections of my union, Unite including my sector recommended backing Andy Burnham for leader. Yet because Len fucking McCluskey is chief executive of Unite, his recommendation of Corbyn suddenly became the stance of "Unite the Union" and all its members - it isn't!!

https://unitetheunion.org/what-we-do/unite-in-politics/

I'm gutted because I think Andy Burnham would have been a great leader and would probably cruise to a GE victory against this lot. I've read on here that posters have left the labour party because of the direction that the party is taking but surely people need to keep their membership and vote against Corbyn at these leadership contests? Although I'm not sure entirely how the leadership voting works as it seems very much stacked it favour of Corbyn as he also won the 2016 leadership election quite easily. 
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22226 on: May 1, 2019, 12:21:42 pm »
A more accurate quote would be: ‘We will respect Jeremy Corbyn, we should leave the European Union’. That's what it amounts to. We've got to the stage where Corbyn loyalists celebrate every defeat of Remainers. Jeremy Corbyn is the Labour party. The Labour party no longer exists outside Corbyn and his faction. The Labour party no longer supports ideals that exist outside of individuals. There are Corbyn positions, and these are the Labour party positions, and anyone who disagrees is a traitor.

You keep churning out this garbage and you are not alone,  in the real world Labour members tend to follow the policies agreed on in conference not just a small cabal in the leadership, you seem to think the massive elections majorities were simply these new members who many in here deem as unworthy of being a member, this wasnt the case many very experienced  Labour members voted for Corbyn twice as it happens if that not democracy what is and still support the policies the leadership and the party voted for ? 

Such was and seemingly still is the dirth of talent in the Right and Centre right of this party.

You cannot blame Corbyn for being the only candidate who could attract new and old members such was the lack lustre performance of the other three. However you have not really respecting democracy is it.

What i find laughable is you all talk about democracy but for many in here it's just democracy when it suits, from the day Corbyn got democratically elected the first time people in here and in the PLP and Media have openly criticised him as a person, sticking the knife in on a daily basis,  not his policies though in the main excluding Brexit.

Many latch on to any spurious tit bits,  false facts, gossip in any right wing press coverage and embelished it to the umpteeth degree to make more of it than it originally merited.

 This actually make the criticisms that are merited quite meaningless at times to me in a boy cried wolf scenario.
 
You are simply and always have been royally pissed off because the legacy from Blair ceased to continue and for you a case of  god help us a lefty got in for once.

  What the present leadership is doing is actually the same way of working as previous Labour leaders with their close friends in prominant positions for example Milne = Campbell seems to have the same influence no more and certainly no less. Much maligned Barry Gardiner as much a one track hot head as Mandelson for example.  I guess it was alright then though for a small group to propel us using lies into a war that we did not have to take part in.

As for the other banal comment  'We will respect Jeremy Corbyn, we should leave the European Union’

yes the referendum might be called rigged but if or until that is legally challenged and admitted technically we needed to abide by the outcome, however if this situation alters and a court makes the result null & void  then you can say we do not regonise the result and go for a new referendum.

I also know it is convenient in the collective Rawk mindset to claim most Labour members and voters are remainers as it gives some in Rawk another big stick when it is quite obvious they are as split as the rest of the country, for example how many current MP's are in constituencies that voted to Leave?

I sadly believe should the leadership state today we have had a rethink and nevermind going for a GE we are now soilidly behind a new referendum/peoples vote some of you will find a way to slag that off as well its sadly in the Rawk DNA these days in my opinion.

 That alone makes me so sad about this place.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22227 on: May 1, 2019, 12:32:22 pm »
I also know it is convenient in the collective Rawk mindset to claim most Labour members and voters are remainers as it gives some in Rawk another big stick when it is quite obvious they are as split as the rest of the country, for example how many current MP's are in constituencies that voted to Leave?

I sadly believe should the leadership state today we have had a rethink and nevermind going for a GE we are now soilidly behind a new referendum/peoples vote some of you will find a way to slag that off as well its sadly in the Rawk DNA these days in my opinion.

 That alone makes me so sad about this place.

Really daft conclusions there Geoff, especially the penultimate paragraph. Just poor analysis all round

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22228 on: May 1, 2019, 12:54:52 pm »
Really daft conclusions there Geoff, especially the penultimate paragraph. Just poor analysis all round

Too many home truths for you?
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22229 on: May 1, 2019, 12:55:55 pm »
Is this the latest effort at excusing the leadership from ignoring the conference decision? BTW, Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of article the morning of the referendum result. What studies did he have on the proportion of Leave voting constituencies when he did that?
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22230 on: May 1, 2019, 12:57:36 pm »
I also know it is convenient in the collective Rawk mindset to claim most Labour members and voters are remainers as it gives some in Rawk another big stick when it is quite obvious they are as split as the rest of the country, for example how many current MP's are in constituencies that voted to Leave?

It's not "convenient", it's true! https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

65% of those who voted for Labour in 2015 voted Remain.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22231 on: May 1, 2019, 01:04:40 pm »
It's not "convenient", it's true! https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

65% of those who voted for Labour in 2015 voted Remain.

He's now going to claim this is what he meant by "split".
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22232 on: May 1, 2019, 01:09:44 pm »
Is this the latest effort at excusing the leadership from ignoring the conference decision? BTW, Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of article the morning of the referendum result. What studies did he have on the proportion of Leave voting constituencies when he did that?

Keep living in the past fella Saint Tony isnt coming back.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22233 on: May 1, 2019, 01:12:48 pm »
It's a good question and something ive already posted about in the past.
Would ex Labour remain supporters forgive Corbyns Labour if they did a uturn and called for another referendum with remain as a option.
I think we have to remind ourselves how the country got where it is today, why is the country so split. lies, our politicians convinced leave voters a successful brexit that protects jobs and the economy is possible, they argued we can rid our selves of the EU rules and regulation etc and look forward to brexit positively. Corbyns Labour argued all these points while arguing we must respect why leave voters voted leave, the thing is it's not just about Labour calling another referendum, they have to win it as well to be forgiven, Labour should have been educating the public over the last 2 yrs, they chose to lie to them, now they have to try and convince those voters that there is no successful Brexit. they made that task of winning a confirmatory referendum far harder. Corbyns Labour should have been arguing for a confirmatory referendum from day 1, they should have been educating the public on why we need 1 instead of repeating the hard rights lies.
« Last Edit: May 1, 2019, 01:15:07 pm by oldfordie »
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22234 on: May 1, 2019, 01:37:26 pm »
It's not "convenient", it's true! https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

65% of those who voted for Labour in 2015 voted Remain.


You know that for certain how ?

Polls are not very accurate most of the time depends on the way a question is put and people lie anyway and depends on the sample, which is why i never trust polls not matter if i agree with the result or not.

Whichever way Labour go they alienate voters and what's worse with the Labour leavers it could send them over to the likes of Frottage.

Personally i would go for remain but that would still be brave move for the party to take on in the present political climate.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22235 on: May 1, 2019, 01:37:34 pm »
It's a good question and something ive already posted about in the past.
Would ex Labour remain supporters forgive Corbyns Labour if they did a uturn and called for another referendum with remain as a option.
I think we have to remind ourselves how the country got where it is today, why is the country so split. lies, our politicians convinced leave voters a successful brexit that protects jobs and the economy is possible, they argued we can rid our selves of the EU rules and regulation etc and look forward to brexit positively. Corbyns Labour argued all these points while arguing we must respect why leave voters voted leave, the thing is it's not just about Labour calling another referendum, they have to win it as well to be forgiven, Labour should have been educating the public over the last 2 yrs, they chose to lie to them, now they have to try and convince those voters that there is no successful Brexit. they made that task of winning a confirmatory referendum far harder. Corbyns Labour should have been arguing for a confirmatory referendum from day 1, they should have been educating the public on why we need 1 instead of repeating the hard rights lies.

The Overton window was a big thing during the 2015 leadership election. It was why Corbyn was nominated, to move the debate leftwards. At the time of the referendum result, Brexit was supposed to mean something like Norway, which Frottage was advocating. The Overton window on Brexit has now moved to the point where a large portion the populace favours no deal. Corbyn, who should have been moving the Overton window to educate the voters on how Brexit is not practical, was the first to call for its immediate implementation.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22236 on: May 1, 2019, 01:38:53 pm »
Keep living in the past fella Saint Tony isnt coming back.

I point to Corbyn's position on Brexit, and you point to Tony Blair.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22237 on: May 1, 2019, 01:41:49 pm »
11 years since Blair left.

14years years since labour last won an election.

Blair is the past, but we can learn lessons from labour successes in previous elections I think.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22238 on: May 1, 2019, 01:47:18 pm »
Lab 2010 voters: Remain 59 / Leave 41
Lab 2015 voters: 65/35
Lab 2017 voters: 71/29

Labour voters have become significantly more "Remainy" over time as well, hardly a shock given where they did well in the 2017 election, Remain strongholds.

And yes there are margins of error with polling but I don't think it likely that a poll showing 71:29 means 50:50 in reality.

Labour's problems with Leave voters isn't just Brexit, it is that those voters tend to be a lot more socially illiberal than average which obviously pushes them towards the more populist right, a lot of those voters would be difficult for Labour to win back even if they went full Hard Brexit

« Last Edit: May 1, 2019, 01:52:01 pm by filopastry »

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #22239 on: May 1, 2019, 01:52:14 pm »
The Overton window was a big thing during the 2015 leadership election. It was why Corbyn was nominated, to move the debate leftwards. At the time of the referendum result, Brexit was supposed to mean something like Norway, which Frottage was advocating. The Overton window on Brexit has now moved to the point where a large portion the populace favours no deal. Corbyn, who should have been moving the Overton window to educate the voters on how Brexit is not practical, was the first to call for its immediate implementation.
Yep. Corbyn won the Labour leadership election after the referendum arguing for a Norway deal, we know what happened next. I didn't hear anyone screaming betrayal back then,May laid down her red lines as the Brexit people voted for, those red lines make a Norway or Custom union deal impossible. everything changed when May laid down those red lines, a no deal became a certainty unless she dropped those red lines.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis