Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[Trada]

Labour agreed a policy at its last conference that if Parliament voted down the government's deal or talks end in no deal, there should be a general election.

But if it cannot force one, it added, the party "must support all options remaining on the table, including campaigning for a public vote".

Mr Corbyn said on Saturday: "The national executive will decide on Tuesday what will be in the European election manifesto and we will reflect the decisions made (at) last year's Labour Party conference - which were for a customs union, market access and rights protection within, with, the European Union.

"We would prefer to have a general election, but failing that if we get that agreement we are prepared to consider putting it to a confirmatory vote. That is a decision the national executive of the party will make."

Asked if the promise of a public confirmatory vote would be in election material, he added: "It's important that the party, which is a democratic party structure, makes those decisions. Sadly, or perhaps it's a good thing, I'm not a dictator of the Labour Party."


Analysis by Iain Watson, BBC political correspondent


When some of Labour's early European election literature was leaked, it provoked an internal row at a senior level.

Why? Because it made no mention of another referendum.

A letter from almost 100 MPs and MEPs calling for one has put additional pressure on the leadership.

With the agreement of a senior official in Jeremy Corbyn's office, the campaign literature is now to be rewritten.

There will be a mention of a confirmatory ballot/public vote (translation: a referendum) but only to avoid "a bad Tory deal".

This won't go far enough for those MPs calling for a referendum on any deal. That is, even if Mr Corbyn reaches agreement on a "soft" Brexit with Theresa May, a chunk of his Parliamentary party still want another referendum.

The issue will be hammered out when the ruling national executive meets on Tuesday to decide the manifesto for the European elections.

Some members will argue for no referendum, some will argue for one but with caveats, and others will press for a public vote under all circumstances.

Maybe the printing presses should be mothballed until Wednesday.

A letter, signed by some Labour MPs and MEPs, said: "Our members need to feel supported on doorsteps by a clear manifesto that marks us out as the only viable alternative to Nigel Frottage's Brexit Party.

"We need a message of hope and solidarity, and we need to campaign for it without caveats. To motivate our supporters, and to do the right thing by our members and our policy, a clear commitment to a confirmatory public vote on any Brexit deal must be part of our European election manifesto.

"We understand the many different pressures and views within our movement, but without this clear commitment, we fear that our electoral coalition could fall apart."


'Final sign-off'

Richard Corbett, leader of Labour's MEPs and a member of the NEC, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "The problem we face now is that Brexit is turning out to be so different from what was promised three years ago.

"Remember they said it would be easy - it's turning out to be rather complex. They said it would save loads of money that would all go to the NHS - it's turning out to be costly.

"They said it would not damage the economy - we are seeing firms move abroad, jobs lost, especially in manufacturing.

"Because it's so different, it's right that it should go back to the people for a final sign-off."

Hmmm why are the BBC saying they are going to be redrafted the leaflets like its a big deal anyway any vote would be on a Labour deal, while at the same time saying nothing has been decided yet not until at least Tuesday.

[Peabee]

Brexit has been great for the likes of Umunna, Soubry, etc. Latch on to one issue and hide behind it. I’m pissed off with politicians in general. There’s a few decent ones like Starmer, Cooper, who haven’t let Brexit turn them into opportunists or lunatics.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Hmmm why are the BBC saying they are going to be redrafted the leaflets like its a big deal anyway any vote would be on a Labour deal, while at the same time saying nothing has been decided yet not until at least Tuesday.

You called it fake news.

[Peabee]

You called it fake news.

I hate the phrase “fake news”. It’s invariably used when someone doesn’t like the news, rather than for actually calling out lies. 

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I hate the phrase “fake news”. It’s invariably used when someone doesn’t like the news, rather than for actually calling out lies.

You and me both.

[Peabee]

You and me both.

It’s the sort of phrase Goebbels would have loved.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

It’s the sort of phrase Goebbels would have loved.

Almost out of the dictators Playbook on page 1

[Alan_X]

No Im voting for the Labour partys version of Brexit which would be a very soft Brexit...

Hahahahahaha...

[TepidT2O]

Hmmm why are the BBC saying they are going to be redrafted the leaflets like its a big deal anyway any vote would be on a Labour deal, while at the same time saying nothing has been decided yet not until at least Tuesday.

They are not being rewritten and Peston was spreading fake news about a vote no vote happenhed.

How the momentum propaganda machine ages eh?

A man voting for brexit here.  Take a look

[Andy @ Allerton!]

No Im voting for the Labour partys version of Brexit which would be a very soft Brexit or maybe no Brexit at all in the end.

You're voting for Brexit. Why not admit it.

Any vote for Labour is a vote for Tory Brexit. Jezza is making sure that's a reality.

[Red-Soldier]

Labour's position continues to be one big fudge!!  They're a fucking disgrace at the moment.

[oldfordie]

The Tories are not going to call a election now under any circumstances, the situation has changed dramatically in the last few weeks, the Brexit party has put the fear of God up the Tories, they know they will loose many seats as Tory voters defect to the Brexit party.
Labour can't honestly argue they believe the Tories will call another election, it is not going to happen.

[Sangria]

The Tories are not going to call a election now under any circumstances, the situation has changed dramatically in the last few weeks, the Brexit party has put the fear of God up the Tories, they know they will loose many seats as Tory voters defect to the Brexit party.
Labour can't honestly argue they believe the Tories will call another election, it is not going to happen.

Did the conference vote specify a plan B if there is no general election? Corbyn fans have tirelessly told us that the Labour members control party policy, so presumably the policies chosen by the members will be enacted by the leadership. What is the plan B again?

[oldfordie]

Did the conference vote specify a plan B if there is no general election? Corbyn fans have tirelessly told us that the Labour members control party policy, so presumably the policies chosen by the members will be enacted by the leadership. What is the plan B again?

Yep, that's the sickening part, Corbyn promised Labour members would decide party policy. The members have had no say on Brexit for nearly 3 yrs.
I don't think Labour have got round to Plan A yet. the CU is simple enough to understand, the SM access is very vague as usual for a reason. nobody can put forward a brexit plan that works.

[ShakaHislop]

Labour set to retain 'equivocal' referendum position

A concerted attempt by Labour MPs and MEPs to engineer that their party would campaign unambiguously for a “confirmatory” Brexit referendum in the EU elections looks set to flop.

Instead Jeremy Corbyn’s preferred position of characterising a new public vote only as an option is likely to prevail, because he seems to have retained the backing of most of the leaders of the big trade unions.

The decision on how strongly to push for a referendum, and how Labour’s position on it should be worded in its manifesto, will be taken at a crunch emergency meeting of the party’s ruling NEC on Tuesday.

I am told by senior party sources that in talks last Tuesday with the leaders of the so-called five big trade unions - Unison, Unite, the GMB, Usdaw and the CWU - only the GMB signalled a strong preference for a confirmatory referendum to be upgraded from an option to a clear policy preference.

Unison and Usdaw are in theory aligned with the GMB on this, but sources close to Corbyn do not believe they will vote against the Labour leader’s preferred and more ambiguous referendum formulation in a couple of days.

As evidence, one source told me that Dave Prentis, General Secretary of the largest union, Unison, told Labour’s leader: “Jeremy, if you can get a deal with the Government then take it."

Although no one close to Corbyn thinks there is the remotest chance of negotiations between Labour and the Government on a Brexit pact reaching a successful conclusion, Prentis’s comments were interpreted as showing support for the Labour leadership’s equivocal position on a public vote.

“We think we have three-quarters of the votes on the NEC,” said an official close to the Labour leader’s office.

If this turns out to be so, it would be a blow to a majority of Labour members and probably a majority of its MPs too - who want a confirmatory referendum and who also believe that the party would win the largest share of votes in the EU elections if it in effect became the referendum party.

There will be a big final push by the party’s deputy leader Tom Watson and its Brexit spokesperson Keir Starmer (who is not on the NEC) to change Corbyn’s preferred manifesto wording so that it would simply call for a confirmatory referendum on any Brexit deal approved by Parliament.

Whether they can win the argument at the NEC will hinge to a large extent on how nine representatives of constituency Labour parties - essentially the representatives of members - choose to vote.

They know most Labour members want a referendum, including most members of its influential Momentum movement.

But some are reluctant to be disloyal to Corbyn by challenging his softer referendum position, and others are hard-left critics of the EU.

Possibly the most important protagonist at the meeting will be Momentum’s founder Jon Lansman, who is widely believed to be moving closer to Starmer’s and Watson’s position because he is aware that is what Momentum members prefer.

But a source close to Corbyn thinks Lansman does not see Corbyn’s referendum wording as “far” from a formulation he could support.

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-04-28/labour-set-to-retain-equivocal-referendum-position/

The sooner this party dies, the better.

[ShakaHislop]

Labour MPs Pushing For Referendum On Any Brexit Deal Trying To 'Change Party Policy,' Says Barry Gardiner

Labour is focused on “trying to deliver” Brexit and could agree to an exit deal without a second referendum, Barry Gardiner has said.

The shadow international trade secretary said Labour MPs and members who were insisting the public should get a confirmatory vote on any deal agreed between Labour and the Tories were trying to “change the party’s policy”.

It comes after HuffPost UK revealed the party had produced a European election leaflet which contained no mention of a referendum, to the fury of many party activists.

Labour’s ruling National Executive Committee (NEC) will decide on what will be in its European election manifesto.

Scores of Labour MPs and MEPs have put their names to a letter calling on the NEC to commit to a public vote.

Talks on finding a consensus on Brexit between the Tories and Labour are set to resume this week.

The government is desperate to pass a deal through parliament and take the UK out of the EU to avoid having to hold the MEP elections on May 23.

Polls suggest the Conservative Party faces a drubbing, with Nigel Frottage’s new Brexit party gobbling up Tory votes.

Speaking to BBC Radio 5 Live’s Pienaar’s Politics, Gardiner said Labour was “trying to deliver on what people voted for” in 2016.

“The party policy at that conference was, to stop a no-deal or to stop a bad Theresa May deal, and we couldn’t get our deal through or something pretty close to it as we’ve outlined it, then of course we would want to have a second referendum. That’s party policy,” he said.

But asked whether the party should commit to an “unqualified” promise to hold a referendum, Gardiner said this would be to “change the party’s policy”.

His comments were echoed by Labour’s National Campaign Coordinator Andrew Gwynne and Shadow Business Secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey.

Asked if a confirmatory public vote should be held on “any” Brexit deal, Gwynne would only tell the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show that a referendum should happen if there was ”a bad Tory Brexit or a no-deal scenario”

Meanwhile asked if a referendum was a “red line” for Labour in the talks, Long-Bailey told Sky News she “wouldn’t couch it in terms of a second referendum”.

“Our party policy has always been that firstly we want to get a Brexit deal that puts our economy and living standards first and protects our environmental protections, workplace protections, health and safety standards,” she said.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labour-mps-pushing-for-referendum-on-any-brexit-deal-trying-to-change-party-policy-says-barry-gardiner_uk_5cc57e1fe4b08e4e34832c77

[Team Sleep]

Labour MPs Pushing For Referendum On Any Brexit Deal Trying To 'Change Party Policy,' Says Barry Gardiner

Labour is focused on “trying to deliver” Brexit and could agree to an exit deal without a second referendum, Barry Gardiner has said.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labour-mps-pushing-for-referendum-on-any-brexit-deal-trying-to-change-party-policy-says-barry-gardiner_uk_5cc57e1fe4b08e4e34832c77

And this too:

Labour is prepared to sign up to a Brexit deal with the government without the promise of a referendum attached if cross-party talks make significant progress in the coming days, one of the party’s negotiators has said.

Rebecca Long-Bailey, the shadow business secretary, has been attending the negotiations alongside the shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, and the shadow Brexit secretary, Keir Starmer.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/28/labour-hints-at-backing-brexit-deal-without-promise-of-referendum

[ShakaHislop]

Basically, Remainers have to hope that May/the Tories continue to refuse to accept a customs union, or a customs "arrangement", so that there is no deal that Labour can accept and not have a referendum on.

The one true socialist, Jezza Corbyn and "proper" Labour forcing the majority of their supporters to rely on the Tories to help save the country. I don't believe that was what was envisaged during the heady days of the 2015 leadership election.

[Red-Soldier]

Any Remainer who votes for Labour in the upcoming Euro elections is a mug in my opinion.  They are a Brexit party.

[ShakaHislop]

Any Remainer who votes for Labour in the upcoming Euro elections is a mug in my opinion.  They are a Brexit party.

The lesson is there to be learned from the 2017 election, since which we've heard many times that 80% of the public voted for parties committed to delivering Brexit which isn't technically untrue, but it wasn't the message many Labour voters that year intended to send.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Any Remainer who votes for Labour in the upcoming Euro elections is a mug in my opinion.  They are a Brexit party.

some of us realised this a long long time ago

[Team Sleep]

Basically, Remainers have to hope that May/the Tories continue to refuse to accept a customs union, or a customs "arrangement", so that there is no deal that Labour can accept and not have a referendum on.

The one true socialist, Jezza Corbyn and "proper" Labour forcing the majority of their supporters to rely on the Tories to help save the country. I don't believe that was what was envisaged back during the heady days of the 2015 leadership election.

If there was anything I would have expected this iteration of the Labour party to have been capable of delivering on, it would have been:

• Making sure staff get fair pay rises at the same time senior leaders don't get large increases - fail and fail
• Listening to party members and not trying to weasel their way out of adhering to it - see last few posts
• Advertising roles, hiring the right people, avoiding nepotism or "who you know" being the main hiring criteria - fail

[ShakaHislop]

Pro-referendum Labour MPs should quit the party this week if an unambiguous pledge for a referendum isn't agreed by the NEC. They don't have to join the TIGs (Ian Austin didn't). Form an Independent Labour group instead.

There's only so much pressure we on the outside can apply. MPs have to finally start stepping up en mass and doing it too.

[oldfordie]

Pro-referendum Labour MPs should quit the party this week if an unambiguous pledge for a referendum isn't agreed by the NEC. They don't have to join the TIGs (Ian Austin didn't). Form an Independent Labour group instead.

There's only so much pressure we on the outside can apply. MPs have to finally start stepping up en mass and doing it too.

Why should they leave after the way people have turned on Change UK.  those MPs left their parties to not only fight Brexit, they left to bring back some honesty and trust in UK politics and now people are walking away from them. cant blame any MP staying put now.

[The Gulleysucker]

More undoubted troublemakers ...

...The Observer has also been told that hundreds of activists, councillors and supporters have written to the NEC and the leader’s office to demand that Corbyn stick to the referendum policy and promote it during the campaign – and many have said their support depends on his doing so...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/28/labour-activists-threaten-european-election-campaign-boycott-second-referendum

[Zeb]

Why should they leave after the way people have turned on Change UK.  those MPs left their parties to not only fight Brexit, they left to bring back some honesty and trust in UK politics and now people are walking away from them. cant blame any MP staying put now.

Agree about drawbacks on actually leaving right now. Although Change are still building in the polls - contrast between European election polling and Westminster is quite impressive for a new party. Biggest net loss of Labour voters in Westminster polling is to the Greens at the moment though. Both main parties are struggling to hold onto 50% of their 2017 voters, with a heck of a lot of 'don't knows'. Think Tom Watson is seeing how this could work out once the Tories have shifted further right under a new leader so there is incentive to try and push for a position which isn't going to cause even bigger problems for Labour down the line but there's a major fracture opening up however this plays out now.

Source for polling comments: Yougov tables pdf

[oldfordie]

Agree about drawbacks on actually leaving right now. Although Change are still building in the polls - contrast between European election polling and Westminster is quite impressive for a new party. Biggest net loss of Labour voters in Westminster polling is to the Greens at the moment though. Both main parties are struggling to hold onto 50% of their 2017 voters, with a heck of a lot of 'don't knows'. Think Tom Watson is seeing how this could work out once the Tories have shifted further right under a new leader so there is incentive to try and push for a position which isn't going to cause even bigger problems for Labour down the line but there's a major fracture opening up however this plays out now.

Source for polling comments: Yougov tables pdf

Yeah,remain voters were crying out for a new party yet they are not backing them when it matters. why should any MP put his neck on the line now after seeing what is happening to ChangeUK.
Chris Leslies point in bold is whats important for me right now. don't get me wrong I am disapointed they didn't come to some sort of arrangement with Lib Dems/Geens but they have given their reasons why, similar to the Brexit parties logic and I don't hear anyone ripping them apart for not coming to some agreement with UKIP.
Chris Leslie +Umunna explainations.


Chris Leslie.

It just wasn't ever on the agenda... I don't think it will ever be likely because we are starting something new. We are not joining the Liberal Democrats or the Green Party."

He urged Lib Dem members to instead leave their party and join Change UK. "The emergency situation we are in demands a completely fresh overhaul of the centre-ground."
"They [the Lib Dems] have fallen below a critical mass and haven't had the drive to get out of that for a long time. We [Change UK] are starting afresh and don't come with that baggage.


Reflecting on a whirlwind few months Change UK, which launched eight weeks ago under the title "The Independent Group," Leslie said that the significance of its formation had not been "fully appreciated."

The ex-shadow chancellor said: "We haven't just decided to exit for the sake of our integrity.
"What we have done further than that is plant a flag broadly in the centre ground to try and see if there is an appetite to bring together those who have felt political homeless as the political parties have moved towards their fringes.
"And to build a better type of politics."
https://www.businessinsider.com/change-uk-chris-leslie-anti-brexit-alliance-will-not-ever-be-likely-2019-4?r=US&IR=T

Chuka Umunna.

The alternative suggestion has been for the pro-EU parties to at least agree among ourselves to stand down in favour of just one of our number in particular regions.  However, it is not clear at the start of this European election campaign which party is most likely to win in which region in five weeks’ time.
Again, a lot can happen in five weeks. And, even if agreement could be reached on who is most likely to win, that degree of cooperation is highly likely to lead to the Electoral Commission treating all those parties as one party for compliance purposes around the treatment and reporting of election expenditure – it can all get very messy.

As a pluralist who thinks tribalism is overrated, I can see the attraction in the argument for a pro-EU coalition of the sort argued for, but no one has been able to explain to me how these practical hurdles can be overcome. That is because they can’t be.

[ShakaHislop]

Why should they leave after the way people have turned on Change UK.  those MPs left their parties to not only fight Brexit, they left to bring back some honesty and trust in UK politics and now people are walking away from them. cant blame any MP staying put now.

Some people like myself have turned on Change UK because they're acting like billy big bollocks, telling the other smaller opposition parties to fall into line when they've proved absolutely nothing to date. Their priority seems to be advancing the electoral interests of their party, regardless of what eventually happens with Brexit rather than opposing Brexit for the good of the country. It's the opposite of what people hoped for from any new party.

In your other post, they sound no different to Labour giving lots of excuses why they supposedly can't do the sensible thing.

They also need to start saying something other than soundbites about the "centre ground" and the theme of being new. They're the political party a team on The Apprentice would create.

[No666]

Chris Leslie just sent out a message re: Change UK, which includes this:

- Cross party working with other pro-People’s Vote parties

We totally understand the frustration people have with the electoral system used to choose MEPs which prevents parties from standing on a joint slate unless they formally merged (and did so months before we even knew European elections were happening).

It’s clear we need change to a fairer more proportional system that reflects the changing nature of politics today. And, it is important that, short of merging, we don’t commit the mistakes of Vote Leave in collaborating in a way that plays fast and loose with electoral law. However, we can assure you we are working very closely with other parties including the Liberal Democrats in Parliament to campaign for a People’s Vote and to Remain, and have put in an application for a joint Change UK-Liberal Democrat Opposition Day debate on a People’s Vote.

[ShakaHislop]

Chris Leslie just sent out a message re: Change UK, which includes this:

- Cross party working with other pro-People’s Vote parties

We totally understand the frustration people have with the electoral system used to choose MEPs which prevents parties from standing on a joint slate unless they formally merged (and did so months before we even knew European elections were happening).

It’s clear we need change to a fairer more proportional system that reflects the changing nature of politics today. And, it is important that, short of merging, we don’t commit the mistakes of Vote Leave in collaborating in a way that plays fast and loose with electoral law. However, we can assure you we are working very closely with other parties including the Liberal Democrats in Parliament to campaign for a People’s Vote and to Remain, and have put in an application for a joint Change UK-Liberal Democrat Opposition Day debate on a People’s Vote.

It sounds like he's hiding behind technicalities. All I simply expected of the Lib Dems, Greens and CHUK was to informally agree not to stand in certain areas. So for example, in the North West, the Lib Dems and Greens would formally submit candidates but CHUK would not, whereas in the North East, Lib Dems and CHUK would make formal submissions but the Greens would not. I don't see how that would possibly be illegal? For it to be so would effectively bar even smaller parties without the finances/resources to run in every region, or independents from competing in the election.

I was never asking for a lot of box-ticking to be done so "Lib Dem-Remain Alliance"; "Green-Remain Alliance" etc would be on the ballot paper.

"before we even knew European elections were happening" Am I expected to respond to this in a positive way? Either he didn't expect Euro elections to be happening because he thought we'd be out by now, which doesn't suggest he has much confidence in Remain or it demonstrates a complete lack of preparation and professionalism. We knew we'd be leaving on the 29th of March unless there was an extension; we knew that the extension had to be lengthy to provide the time to legislate for a 2nd ref; we had known since before the referendum that the next set of Euro elections would take place in spring 2019, so during the aforementioned necessary lengthy extension. Why the fuck weren't they making preparations accordingly years ago? Oh wait, because they wasted fucking years telling the Sunday Times every week that they maybe would set up a new party, instead of getting on with it.

[oldfordie]

Some people like myself have turned on Change UK because they're acting like billy big bollocks, telling the other smaller opposition parties to fall into line when they've proved absolutely nothing to date. Their priority seems to be advancing the electoral interests of their party, regardless of what eventually happens with Brexit rather than opposing Brexit for the good of the country. It's the opposite of what people hoped for from any new party.

In your other post, they sound no different to Labour giving lots of excuses why they supposedly can't do the sensible thing.

They also need to start saying something other than soundbites about the "centre ground" and the theme of being new. They're the political party a team on The Apprentice would create.

Yes they are telling voters what they stand for as this all came about due to Brexit so the 2 are linked, the situation we are in now only came about because we have lying incompetent politicians dominating UK politics, ive always argued this is not just about stopping Brexit, what has happened over the last few yrs should never be allowed to happen again. our laws have to change to make our politicians more accountable, a inquiry has to happen to expose the corruption and the lies.
Change UK have the same values as myself, they don't just want to stop Brexit they want to change politics so politicians like Johnson +co are held to account. so the 2 are linked, if you want to stop Brexit and get rid of the extreme politicians who have lied to the country then support the ChangeUK party. the only real choice voters have in realty, is a extreme right or left government.I really do think they are the only hope for this country right now and sadly it's not looking good, the Lib Dems or Greens wont do it, they are the protest parties when it comes to stopping Brexit and changing UK politics.
Change UK went out on a limb in the hope of other politicians joining them, they have been let down by the people shouting for a new party to defend them from the hard right +left.

[Mutton Geoff]

It’s the sort of phrase Goebbels would have loved.

Or Trump

[Skeeve]

I hate the phrase “fake news”. It’s invariably used when someone doesn’t like the news, rather than for actually calling out lies.

Fake news was fine as a phrase when it was being used properly i.e. the daily show was proudly a fake news show prior to Trump nicking the term to mean news he doesn't like.

[ShakaHislop]

Yes they are telling voters what they stand for as this all came about due to Brexit so the 2 are linked, the situation we are in now only came about because we have lying incompetent politicians dominating UK politics, ive always argued this is not just about stopping Brexit, what has happened over the last few yrs should never be allowed to happen again. our laws have to change to make our politicians more accountable, a inquiry has to happen to expose the corruption and the lies.
Change UK have the same values as myself, they don't just want to stop Brexit they want to change politics so politicians like Johnson +co are held to account. so the 2 are linked, if you want to stop Brexit and get rid of the extreme politicians who have lied to the country then support the ChangeUK party. the only real choice voters have in realty, is a extreme right or left government.I really do think they are the only hope for this country right now and sadly it's not looking good, the Lib Dems or Greens wont do it, they are the protest parties when it comes to stopping Brexit and changing UK politics.
Change UK went out on a limb in the hope of other politicians joining them, they have been let down by the people shouting for a new party to defend them from the hard right +left.

Because they're not acting in a way that commands support. Their actions don't match their rhetoric and are similar to the actions of the parties they left behind.

So they're not acting in a positive new way, nor do they have any electoral track record to point to yet you, and they are demanding that everyone votes for them instead of more established, and consistently pro-EU parties like the Lib Dems and Greens. Can you not see why that annoys some people? They're not setting the polls alight at the moment, and I'm not surprised.

Have Change UK unveiled any detailed proposals yet as to how they plan to "change" politics, such as the law changes and inquiries you hope for? If not, why not?

[ShakaHislop]

Labour set to retain 'equivocal' referendum position

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-04-28/labour-set-to-retain-equivocal-referendum-position/

So I now hear @DavePrentis and the giant Unison union are in fact closer to @tom_watson than @jeremycorbyn on how Labour’s approach to a referendum should be characterised in its EU election manifesto.

In other words, at the emergency NEC meeting on Tuesday, Unison will back a form of words that makes it clear that a confirmatory referendum would be necessary in almost any practical circumstances of a Brexit deal being approved by MPs.

In fact Prentis fears Corbyn misunderstood his position when he expressed it at that meeting with him last Tuesday.  So just maybe Corbyn has not yet stitched up a victory for the more equivocal position on a referendum he prefers.

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1122560414590623744

Could just be Unison covering their arses when Corbyn's position wins out ("hey, we tried!") but a tiny glimmer of hope

[oldfordie]

Because they're not acting in a way that commands support. Their actions don't match their rhetoric and are similar to the actions of the parties they left behind.

So they're not acting in a positive new way, nor do they have any electoral track record to point to yet you, and they are demanding that everyone votes for them instead of more established, and consistently pro-EU parties like the Lib Dems and Greens. Can you not see why that annoys some people? They're not setting the polls alight at the moment, and I'm not surprised.

Have Change UK unveiled any detailed proposals yet as to how they plan to "change" politics, such as the law changes and inquiries you hope for? If not, why not?

Why do you think they chose the name ChangeUK, they want to change the way politics is being run in this country, ive seen interviews in the past when some of these politicians have argued laws need to be changed so I believe thats their intention if they ever gain power.
They have broken away from the main parties and are offering voters a option to vote for a party that puts country ahead of themselves. I class that as a positive, they are under police protection for fighting the hard right lies,they have shown us they can be trusted to act in the countries best interests. thats a massive positive in UK politics right now.
The Lib Dems and Greens are also a option but their track record speaks for itself, they are not going to change UK politics, it's up to people who they choose to vote for, I am not demanding anyone votes for ChangeUK, I am making a argument why people should vote for them, we have been shouting for MPs to break away and form a new party and these MPs had the bottle to do it, they had hoped for MPs to follow as public support grew. it hasn't happened up to now, why should any MP break away from their party after seeing the reaction to ChangeUK. this is a opportunity to change the 2 party system which is now extreme right or left. thats a big positive for me.
I can't see anything changing unless the public get behind ChangeUK. people can vote Green or Lib Dems if they want,thats fine, don't expect them to challenge the 2 party system thats f.... this country up right now.

[No666]

They have already said they are looking at a federal government, which would surely give some more purchase on the political system to those in Northern, left-leaning counties/cities.

[ShakaHislop]

Why do you think they chose the name ChangeUK, they want to change the way politics is being run in this country, ive seen interviews in the past when some of these politicians have argued laws need to be changed so I believe thats their intention if they ever gain power.
They have broken away from the main parties and are offering voters a option to vote for a party that puts country ahead of themselves. I class that as a positive, they are under police protection for fighting the hard right lies,they have shown us they can be trusted to act in the countries best interests. thats a massive positive in UK politics right now.
The Lib Dems and Greens are also a option but their track record speaks for itself, they are not going to change UK politics, it's up to people who they choose to vote for, I am not demanding anyone votes for ChangeUK, I am making a argument why people should vote for them, we have been shouting for MPs to break away and form a new party and these MPs had the bottle to do it, they had hoped for MPs to follow as public support grew. it hasn't happened up to now, why should any MP break away from their party after seeing the reaction to ChangeUK. this is a opportunity to change the 2 party system which is now extreme right or left. thats a big positive for me.
I can't see anything changing unless the public get behind ChangeUK. people can vote Green or Lib Dems if they want,thats fine, don't expect them to challenge the 2 party system thats f.... this country up right now.

"they want to change the way politics is being run in this country" - where is the substance? Not all change is good. Brexit and Trump are changes.

"they have shown us they can be trusted to act in the countries best interests" - the little they have done since forming suggests this isn't the case, for example, their selfish refusal to find a way to work with the Lib Dems in these elections. If, as the polls suggest, all they're doing is splitting the Remain vote allowing Frottage to clean up and Labour to get away with stringing Remainers along, how is that in the country's best interests? I appreciate they have a long-term vision for their party but they should be focused on the immediate crisis before us and taking the most pragmatic approach to solving it. By not doing so, in my opinion, they're making Brexit more likely to happen and as a result, have done or will lose the respect and trust of potential supporters like me who they need to be successful long-term. Them trying to conquer the world alone so soon is short-sighted for the future prospects of both themselves and the country.

The Change UK MPs leaving their previous parties is not, taken on its own, enough of a reason for me to vote for them, nor should it be for anyone else. What they do as a new party is what will win people over and so far, they've been very underwhelming, so I don't see why the public should be criticised for not bowing at their feet. If they want votes, earn them, unless they still have the mentality of a Labour or Tory MP who expects votes as a given. Not much of a change.

[Mumm-Ra]

It's not. It is a complete inconvenience distracting focus away from what is the most serious issue facing this country and every other country.

Man City's financial doping? Not really the thread for that mate

[Indomitable_Carp]

Man City's financial doping? Not really the thread for that mate

   Exactly what I had in mind