Topic: Australian soldiers murdered "up to" 39 people in Afghanistan

[leroy]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/australian-special-forces-soldiers-committed-up-to-39-murders-adf-report-20201110-p56dek.html

The report recommended that General Campbell refer 36 matters to the Australian Federal Police for criminal investigation, which relate to 23 incidents and involve 19 current or former ADF personnel.

The inquiry found credible information that some special forces soldiers were involved in planting weapons to cover up their alleged crimes. They carried "throwdowns" - foreign weapons and equipment such as pistols, small hand-held radios and grenades to be placed with the bodies of enemies killed in action for the purpose of taking photos. This practice eventually was used for the purpose of concealing deliberate unlawful killings.

The Brereton report also found evidence that junior soldiers were required by their patrol commanders to shoot a prisoner to achieve their first kill, in a practice known as "blooding".

But the inquiry found "the criminal behaviour of a few was commenced, committed, continued and concealed at the patrol commander level, that is, at corporal or sergeant level".

So utterly depressing and so utterly predictable.  Senior Army types seemingly pinning this all on the lower commanders.  "A few bad apples".  The justice in charge of the investigation " would respectively ask Australians to remember and have faith in the many. I assure you I do".The full report will remain secret.  Having watched some of the videos it makes you nauseous.  In one there are two SAS soldiers talking about another who had killed an unarmed man.  The gist of their conversation was that "you cant do that in front of non-SAS types".   No one in the media seemed to comment on that fact.  Not "you dont murder people", just dont do it in front of "others".

I have no doubt the numbers they are talking about are a gross under-count.

[harleydanger]

As I understand it, the majority of these killings occurred on joint missions with the DEA. It became well known within American air cav units that the SASR were being used as “kill squads” by the DEA and American special forces.

100% 39 is a low number compared to what probably happened.

[Indomitable_Carp]

Here is the News Report on it, worth watching (although be warned there is some pretty grim footage):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GPplTKCYpQ


And this is a good article on it as well:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/aug/16/australias-special-forces-problem-why-the-sas-is-facing-a-crisis

I thought this part was pretty interesting:

Since the first gulf war in 1990 through to this century’s repeated operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, Australian special forces have been the answer when the US has called for Australian boots on the ground.

The SAS is in a constant high state of readiness (one of the commando regiments, in contrast, comprises, in part, reservists) and its personnel are Australia’s most highly trained soldiers, their efficiency and lethality unparalleled. Australian prime ministers from both major parties have operated on a premise they would experience greater electoral pain associated with high battlefield fatalities if they deployed regular infantry instead of special forces, especially SAS. The special forces are not easily killed.

But a combination of high rotation (some SAS members and commandos deployed up to eight times over periods of several years), leadership shortcomings at regimental headquarters and the over-deployment of senior commanders who ought to have remained on base is alleged by some to have led to the erosion of the SAS’s disciplinary culture.

The SAS ethos is founded on independent thinking, rigorous self-discipline and post enemy-contact debriefing where, rank regardless, men would openly discuss – and criticise without repercussion – suboptimal operational aspects. There is little adherence to the strictures of formal military custom; first names are used without deference to rank, the rules on hair (including facial hair), uniform and kit are relaxed.

It is possible, sources say, regimental recruits have mistaken a laissez-faire approach to military protocol as licence for individual ill-discipline that is antithetical to traditional regimental self-regulation.

Sources say SAS command has been “diluted” by the promotion of too many officers to other roles outside the regiment. Too many warrant officers, meanwhile, have been promoted to officers from within the ranks, resulting in a diminution of the non-commissioned officers corps and potential misunderstanding among newer personnel of traditional unit culture. In a high-rotation environment in Afghanistan, the SAS and commando regiments also sometimes found themselves effectively “competing for work”.

It is something there could be the danger of more of, with the increasing reluctance to put "boots on the ground" in the aftermath of Iraq. A lot of the UKs more recent defence reforms have focused on increasing the size, scope and activity of the special forces in ´deniable´ operations, meanwhile continually decreasing the number of conventional soldiers. I would be surprised if British Special Forces units have had any longer then a few months without being deployed on active operations somewhere or other ever since probably before the First Gulf War.

[BarryCrocker]

A significant first step from those at the top of the armed forces.

Australia’s defence chief Angus Campbell told reporters the Chief of Army Rick Burr had advised the Special Air Service Regiment on Thursday the second squadron had been “struck off the Army order of battle”.

[leroy]

A significant first step from those at the top of the armed forces.

Forgive me if I'm skeptical mate but they've seemed quite focused on suppressing the story.  The extent of potential crimes was only exposed due to leaked documents which then prompted AFP raids of the national broadcaster.  Those documents had the SAS commander trying to interfere with ADFIS investigations.  Now it's all just "the few" and all down to the squad leaders.

The squadron will just be reconstituted under a different name.

The Australian government seems to have gotten fond of criminalizing exposing criminal acts by it's military and intelligence agencies.

[Garrus]

Really sickening to read through some of that. Imagine being on that much of a power trip to just slaughter innocents in a foreign land without blinking an eyelid.

Massive respect to those who came forward and brought these crimes to light. Can't have been easy in a toxic culture like that.

[rawcusk8]

Forgive me for being a cynic but I doubt anything comes of this, some low level fall guy may take the fall for it but the pricks at the top will carry on as they so wish. Just like when Blair played his part in an illegal war then went on to become Middle East peace envoy, none of this makes sense. Politics is a dirty game, many people turn a blind eye to the hypocrisy they see.

[BarryCrocker]

Forgive me for being a cynic but I doubt anything comes of this, some low level fall guy may take the fall for it but the pricks at the top will carry on as they so wish. Just like when Blair played his part in an illegal war then went on to become Middle East peace envoy, none of this makes sense. Politics is a dirty game, many people turn a blind eye to the hypocrisy they see.

This isn't about an illegal war where one country is killing another countries soldiers and the orders come from politicians and generals. This is boots on the ground special forces soldiers using the murder of unarmed people as a 'blooding' initiation for new recruits.

I'm all against tomahawk missiles killing civilians as collateral damage in a war, but this is literally 'serial killers' in uniform using the theatre of war as their playground.

It will be very hard to get a prosecution due to the time delay, the location of the witnesses and the testimony of other soldiers.

[Indomitable_Carp]

This isn't about an illegal war where one country is killing another countries soldiers and the orders come from politicians and generals. This is boots on the ground special forces soldiers using the murder of unarmed people as a 'blooding' initiation for new recruits.

I'm all against tomahawk missiles killing civilians as collateral damage in a war, but this is literally 'serial killers' in uniform using the theatre of war as their playground.

It will be very hard to get a prosecution due to the time delay, the location of the witnesses and the testimony of other soldiers.

All true. It is properly grim.

I guess what Barry Crocker is getting at though is the buck shouldn´t stop at the so-called boots on the ground. Obviously they were the ones murdering civilians, prisoners and whatever else.

However it is clear that rumours of these abuses had been around for years and widely known in military circles. Commanding officers had enough time to put a stop to it and did not. Supposedly officers were even getting involved with the heavy drinking sessions that these special forces units were engaging in.

Likewise, the reason these special forces units were used so heavily on rotation is because it was a political decision to deploy special forces as a way of getting around the publicity of deploying conventional forces, even when conventional forces could have done the same job.

As such you had units of special forces being effectively overdeployed, and denied the kind of R&R that conventional forces (and indeed special forces in other countries - including the British namesake) are given, meaning they are effectively spending years at a time in this ´battle ready´ mindset. (For example British SAS deploy on a four squardron 4-monthly rotation, while the SASR deploy on a three squadran 4-monthly rotation). Mix in a negative culture spread and overseen by the senior NCOs, who were basically given free reign by the officers, mixed in with the hero-worship that basically allowed them to become a law unto themselves, and it is a recipe for disaster.

And this all stems from political and strategic choices from above. Yet those who allowed all this to happen on their watch will most likely get away scot free.

[stevensr123]

Anyone seen the Twitter post China put up about this? They really are c*nts that government.

Oh and Twitter haven’t taken the image down, The same twitter that censored Republicans in the US election is not removing communist propaganda? Gasp! And people wonder why some think the MSM and big tech manipulated the election to an extent.
 

Anyway we are a democracy, and this should go to trial if true, but innocent until proven guilty.

[Bobsackamano]

Anyone seen the Twitter post China put up about this? They really are c*nts that government.

Oh and Twitter haven’t taken the image down, The same twitter that censored Republicans in the US election is not removing communist propaganda? Gasp! And people wonder why some think the MSM and big tech manipulated the election to an extent.
 

Anyway we are a democracy, and this should go to trial if true, but innocent until proven guilty.

Of course its China who are the bad guys in all this 😩

[stevensr123]

Of course its China who are the bad guys in all this 😩

last country that should take the moral high ground is china. Or are we forgetting the slave labour and concentration camps they have at the moment?

[skipper757]

CCP's not going for moral high ground because it has no moral high ground.  Chinese government always complains about unfair treatment and western media hypocrisy.  The term "whataboutism" is also thrown at the CCP whenever western countries criticize their human rights.  For example, western countries criticize China's human rights.  China brings up things like the Iraq War.  Western countries complain that china is use "whataboutism."

This is a Chinese official baiting Morrison, and he didn't need to take the bait.  It's a politically-motivated drawing.  It might be distasteful, but it is that.  Australia didn't need to respond, but this brings up a tit-for-tat that ultimately benefits no one but will be used by China for a global audience.  See the types of responses they can come up with to both Morrison and CCP's critics:
1. "Why do westerners bring up China's human rights when their own actions are under the microscope?  Isn't that whataboutism?  If China can't criticize Australia's human rights, why can Australia criticize China's?  If any country with skeletons should keep quiet, then shouldn't countries like Australia also keep quiet?"
2. "Morrison using "outrageous" and "ashamed" over a political drawing?  Aren't Westerners about freedom of speech?  If only Morrison was so outraged and ashamed about the report."

There's literally no point in engaging.  Morrison should've just said:  "We don't condone the use of this drawing/fake image, but if it's deemed free speech, so be it.  That's a concept that my colleague in China's Foreign Ministry should think about.  In the meantime, we will continue investigations with due process and rule of law."

Rise above the bait, and use that moment to show leadership.  Instead, getting into this tit-for-tat is pointless.  There's no upside to engaging what is basically Trump-esque political trolling.

On your comment on people believing MSM and Big Tech manipulated the election?  A political drawing is not the same thing as conspiracy theories on Coronavirus.  Nor is it promoting a Qanon conspiracy about cabals controlling people.  Nor is it spreading false information about voting for the general election.  Twitter not censoring this image doesn't mean that MSM and Big Tech are manipulating anything, especially since "MSM" such as Fox News and "Big Tech" (Facebook, Twitter, and Reddit) are literally where right-wing talking points were spawned and cultivated.  People can feel all they want that MSM manipulated the results when the reality is that Fox News and the rest of Murdoch empire, many of which spread conspiracy theories (see Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson), are literally some of the most-watched/read news networks.

Free speech has gotten tricky with technology, I'll give you that.  Certainly a slippery slope for Big Tech going forward.

[Garrus]

CCP's not going for moral high ground because it has no moral high ground.  Chinese government always complains about unfair treatment and western media hypocrisy.  The term "whataboutism" is also thrown at the CCP whenever western countries criticize their human rights.  For example, western countries criticize China's human rights.  China brings up things like the Iraq War.  Western countries complain that china is use "whataboutism."

This is a Chinese official baiting Morrison, and he didn't need to take the bait.  It's a politically-motivated drawing.  It might be distasteful, but it is that.  Australia didn't need to respond, but this brings up a tit-for-tat that ultimately benefits no one but will be used by China for a global audience.  See the types of responses they can come up with to both Morrison and CCP's critics:
1. "Why do westerners bring up China's human rights when their own actions are under the microscope?  Isn't that whataboutism?  If China can't criticize Australia's human rights, why can Australia criticize China's?  If any country with skeletons should keep quiet, then shouldn't countries like Australia also keep quiet?"
2. "Morrison using "outrageous" and "ashamed" over a political drawing?  Aren't Westerners about freedom of speech?  If only Morrison was so outraged and ashamed about the report."

There's literally no point in engaging.  Morrison should've just said:  "We don't condone the use of this drawing/fake image, but if it's deemed free speech, so be it.  That's a concept that my colleague in China's Foreign Ministry should think about.  In the meantime, we will continue investigations with due process and rule of law."

Rise above the bait, and use that moment to show leadership.  Instead, getting into this tit-for-tat is pointless.  There's no upside to engaging what is basically Trump-esque political trolling.

On your comment on people believing MSM and Big Tech manipulated the election?  A political drawing is not the same thing as conspiracy theories on Coronavirus.  Nor is it promoting a Qanon conspiracy about cabals controlling people.  Nor is it spreading false information about voting for the general election.  Twitter not censoring this image doesn't mean that MSM and Big Tech are manipulating anything, especially since "MSM" such as Fox News and "Big Tech" (Facebook, Twitter, and Reddit) are literally where right-wing talking points were spawned and cultivated.  People can feel all they want that MSM manipulated the results when the reality is that Fox News and the rest of Murdoch empire, many of which spread conspiracy theories (see Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson), are literally some of the most-watched/read news networks.

Free speech has gotten tricky with technology, I'll give you that.  Certainly a slippery slope for Big Tech going forward.

Good post and completely agree.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Morrison should've just said:  "We don't condone the use of this drawing/fake image, but if it's deemed free speech, so be it.  That's a concept that my colleague in China's Foreign Ministry should think about.  In the meantime, we will continue investigations with due process and rule of law."

I see your point and 100% agree. Morrison should've used this moment to teach China's foreign ministry what freedom of speech really is and that what's Australia's internal matter, remains internal matter.

In the interest of wanting to be fair, dont you think China's call for banning Australian research into the origin of the Corona virus a but unfair? I know this seems like a tit-for-tat logic but if China has been attacking other nation's internal matters but the moment it is about China's, it is deemed "Internal policy" and other nations cant talk about it.

Given this, how do you think Australia can conduct an internal enquiry without it being a focal point on international stage?!? If the soldiers get punished, China's claim about the photos would become true. If they dont, then the international community gets outraged. How can Australia get out of the pickle they are in right now?

[Garrus]

More disturbing depravity:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/dec/01/photo-reveals-australian-soldier-drinking-dead-taliban-prosthetic-leg

[skipper757]

I see your point and 100% agree. Morrison should've used this moment to teach China's foreign ministry what freedom of speech really is and that what's Australia's internal matter, remains internal matter.

In the interest of wanting to be fair, dont you think China's call for banning Australian research into the origin of the Corona virus a but unfair? I know this seems like a tit-for-tat logic but if China has been attacking other nation's internal matters but the moment it is about China's, it is deemed "Internal policy" and other nations cant talk about it.

Given this, how do you think Australia can conduct an internal enquiry without it being a focal point on international stage?!? If the soldiers get punished, China's claim about the photos would become true. If they dont, then the international community gets outraged. How can Australia get out of the pickle they are in right now?

I think on the internal matters issue you raise, China's perspective would be that it's fair game for everyone to criticize each other, but something like an investigation would be "internal."  On the soldiers investigation, China's commenting but not asking to conduct any inquiry itself.  Semantics but now that this has gotten more international uproar all around, it's certainly more complicated, as you say.

For the COVID investigation, Morrison had a strong hand to play but I did read some commentary that questioned if he was too overeager.  He called for a body with inspection powers to investigate (possibly independent of WHO given the org's lack of power to inspect unless invited).  He had focused on talking to some countries first (in the article below, Macron wasn't that keen initially) at a time when it was clear China would be the focus (don't know if he talked to China about this).  Not too long after this, Mike Pompeo pushed the lab theories.  Morrison held the cards (Australia had a relatively good response and is generally trusted), but he didn't get China onboard and was undermined by a major ally at the same time.  To China, Morrison pushing a separate body likely to be organized by nations consistently critical of China with the organization have inspection powers was never going to be palatable.  It was further doomed when the top diplomat of a major Australian ally was on TV pushing conspiracies.  It came across hostile.  Eventually, there's an ongoing investigation anyway (EU/WHO pushed), and Australia got some of what was proposed, but China almost certainly took it as a slight.  Morrison got hung out to dry it looked like.  I think US agriculture may have even benefited from China-Australia trade issues as part of the US-China trade deal phase 1?  No surprise that Trump would sell out an ally.  I think Morrison had the right idea but the approach didn't really pay off.  As soon as Trump lost, Morrison gave a speech in London about working with China and how there were "misunderstandings" and that he was happy to have discussions.  With Biden as president and economic activity picking up in Asia-Pacific, it's a good time for a reset, with less uncertainty all around.  Or at least it looked like that way.

Which is why it's surprising that a Chinese official would tweet this image and it's also surprising on the ferocity of the response.  It makes little sense to escalate now from China's perspective, so maybe China's trying to suss out some hypocrisy?  Morrison had to respond, but the ferocity (and now NZ and France are weighing in too, which to be honest, is expected but probably doesn't help?) now shines the light very much on this issue as well as on the original artist himself (who has continued to make these images).  It's a strange situation, but Australia just needs to do the best with the continued investigations.  I think everyone will generally treat the picture itself as a diplomatic snafu for now, so there just needs to be calmer heads (and no Trump involvement please) to let this go away while Australia continues on with the investigations/prosecutions.  By the time investigations are finished, there should hopefully be less diplomatic tension anyway.  I think the world sees Australia as trustworthy, so as long as this story doesn't continue to boil and become a worldwide issue where every other leader is weighing in, it won't be so politicized.  There's definitely pressure on the results (however they turn out), but the international community would've been watching anyway, regardless of a CCP official's tweet.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-22/morrison-to-push-for-anti-pandemic-inspection-powers/12173806

[leroy]

More disturbing depravity:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/dec/01/photo-reveals-australian-soldier-drinking-dead-taliban-prosthetic-leg

https://www.smh.com.au/national/ben-roberts-smith-pictured-cheering-soldiers-drinking-from-the-prosthetic-leg-of-a-man-he-shot-20201220-p56p2y.html

This idea that it was just a small group and no one beyond the patrol commanders really knew anything is such bullshit.