Author Topic: A change in Venezuela?  (Read 47564 times)

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #80 on: August 1, 2017, 09:37:55 pm »
Can hear the Yanks waffling on about "regime change" already. A US-educated leader in Venezuela would be just what they want.
It's a difficult one though...

If the country is in chaos and people are dying and suddenly a dictatorship comes along.... what is the moral thing to do?
Ignore it or try to change it?
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #81 on: August 1, 2017, 09:40:07 pm »
Can hear the Yanks waffling on about "regime change" already. A US-educated leader in Venezuela would be just what they want.
yeah, because the last in house replacement has worked out great

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #82 on: August 1, 2017, 09:46:04 pm »
Can hear the Yanks waffling on about "regime change" already. A US-educated leader in Venezuela would be just what they want.

Jimmy, I'm glad you're not living in Venezuela, cause I'm sure you like your food, even if you're not that arsed about your human rights.
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #83 on: August 1, 2017, 09:51:55 pm »
Jimmy, I'm glad you're not living in Venezuela, cause I'm sure you like your food, even if you're not that arsed about your human rights.
and bog roll, that's another one

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #84 on: August 1, 2017, 10:39:57 pm »
Maduro looks extremely well fed though. Porky, to coin a word. Ruling classes, especially in dictatorships, are always fat aren't they? The people starve, the boss class eat like there's no tomorrow.
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Offline Lady_brandybuck

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #85 on: August 1, 2017, 10:57:42 pm »
How are you doing? This must be awful for you.

It's the worst thing ever. Hard to focus on anything while my family is still there and getting videos of the brutal repression happening just a couple of blocks from where they live. Knowing that I lived there, walked those streets andthat being part of who I am. Thankfully they are ok and surviving just like everyone else.

My thoughts are with you Lady B, you've been missed lately here. Hope you and yours are alright

Cheers mate, I've missed RAWK a bit too, but I've been busy with this and work. They are as ok as they can be.

Glad to hear from you Lady B. Hope you're safe.

I am, I live in Mexico now, but my whole family and some friends are still there. It's been hard.

Fucking hell, hope Donald Drumpf doesn't hear about this.  Might give him ideas.  :o

Sending hugs Lady B, hope you are ok.

Drumpf would be the worst thing ever now.

@AP
BREAKING: Wife of Leopoldo Lopez says the Venezuelan opposition leader has been taken from his home by authorities.


Rapidly descending into dictatorship. Wonder how widely this will be condemned?

It's been officially a dictatorship since the moment they tried to dismantle the national assembly.

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Offline It's Jimmy Corkhill

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #86 on: August 2, 2017, 05:15:04 am »
Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, of all people, now sticking his oaf-like oar in.

He has an opinion on this in spite of being happy to sell arms to Saudi Arabia in spite of accusing them of running proxy wars in the Middle East and slaughter in Yemen.

What is it with Twitter and useless right-wing politicians with horrendous hair?
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #87 on: August 2, 2017, 07:55:02 am »
Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, of all people, now sticking his oaf-like oar in.

He has an opinion on this in spite of being happy to sell arms to Saudi Arabia in spite of accusing them of running proxy wars in the Middle East and slaughter in Yemen.

What is it with Twitter and useless right-wing politicians with horrendous hair?
What is the moral thing to do?

Do nothing or to act?
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #88 on: August 3, 2017, 12:03:22 am »
What is the moral thing to do?

Do nothing or to act?
Morals  ;D

I see some Neo-Revolutionary planted a roadside bomb and tried to kill a few Police on motorbikes on Monday.
Not quite as bad as someone eating the heart of a Syrian Soldier  ... 
   

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #89 on: August 3, 2017, 12:15:28 pm »
Yesterdays Grauniad had an interesting article by Asa Cusack, managing editor of the LSE Latin America and Caribbean blog

I, like other progressives, was so inspired by the Bolivarian revolution that I overlooked Chavismo’s abuses. But wilful blindness is no longer an option.

.....

But what of Chávez? Did he sow the seeds of Maduro’s downfall? And did his good intentions blind me and others to dangerous failings in his government? Did I think centralisation of power was a price worth paying? Did I forget that oil prices also fall? Did I downplay abuses I would have denounced with a more rightwing government? Despite my best efforts, I suspect that I did.

If it’s true that “the left outside Venezuela can help rebuild the movement by participating in an honest accounting of what went wrong”, then admitting and learning from our own failures is a necessary first step.


At least the writer is honest.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #90 on: August 3, 2017, 12:17:34 pm »
He talks of his good intentions..   were they even that given the money his family and friends (surely with his knowledge) have pilfered?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #91 on: August 3, 2017, 12:51:55 pm »
He talks of his good intentions..   were they even that given the money his family and friends (surely with his knowledge) have pilfered?

Like many on the Left, such abuses are often ignored or dismissed as of little concern provided the the Leader is seen to be sticking one on the Yankee Imperialists.
It's a position that's vaguely understandable given the US has historically done despicable things to the nations in its backyard, but it's not a position of honour and justice. We should be critical of all abuses of power and perversions of claims of democracy and legitimacy, both from the Right (which we expect) but also from the Left.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #92 on: August 3, 2017, 12:56:59 pm »
Like many on the Left, such abuses are often ignored or dismissed as of little concern provided the the Leader is seen to be sticking one on the Yankee Imperialists.
It's a position that's vaguely understandable given the US has historically done despicable things to the nations in its backyard, but it's not a position of honour and justice. We should be critical of all abuses of power and perversions of claims of democracy and legitimacy, both from the Right (which we expect) but also from the Left.

In my family we saw both sides of the coin.  My cousin went to work for the communist rebels in Nicaragua who were fighting Noreaga (although he didn't fight, he was a doctor who just did healthcare).
He returned with the opinion that the leaders of both were both equally as dreadful..

On his return he decided to work somewhere far more challenging .... the centre of Glasgow ;D
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #93 on: August 3, 2017, 01:08:40 pm »
Yesterdays Grauniad had an interesting article by Asa Cusack, managing editor of the LSE Latin America and Caribbean blog
.....

At least the writer is honest.

Yes it's pretty good is that. The evidence against Chavez was stacking up from an early date (with increasing centralisation, the Enabling Acts, arbitrary detention, state censorship, anti-trade union laws, and attacks on the independent judiciary) but the writer sort of acknowledges some of that. As many clearer-eyed people on the international Left said at the time, Chavez was creating a gangster state. His mates, rather than the traditional elites, were the beneficiaries, but it was still a gangster state.

But the article is worth reading.

Unlike this weird stuff from the Canary. https://www.thecanary.co/2017/07/31/guardian-accused-propaganda-coverage-important-vote/

It's so keen to abuse everything written by the Guardian reporters and the 'MSM' and yet so credulous when quoting from the Venezuelan state broadcaster. I have to say it reminds me a little of the Chomsky method as applied to Cambodia. Disbelieve anything that the western media says about genocide, swallow everything you can find from the Khmer Rouge's own propaganda outlets.
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #94 on: August 7, 2017, 06:32:04 pm »
Venezuela searches for rebels after deadly clash at army base...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-40846311

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #95 on: February 16, 2018, 11:32:59 pm »
https://twitter.com/oliverandresfz/status/964208055738134528

One of the zoos in Venezuela, so sad to see such magnificent animals failed so badly

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #96 on: February 17, 2018, 09:44:55 am »
https://twitter.com/oliverandresfz/status/964208055738134528

One of the zoos in Venezuela, so sad to see such magnificent animals failed so badly

Corbyn says that there’s blame on both sides - the animals as well as the zookeepers.
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Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #97 on: August 5, 2018, 01:24:44 am »
Venezuela president Nicolas Maduro survives attack from 'drone like devices' armed with explosives

Standing next to his wife, South American leader looked startled before broadcast transmission was cut.

Explosive drone like devices went off as Venezuelan president Nicolas Maduro was giving a live, televised speech in his country's capital Caracas, the country's government said.

Information Minister Jorge Rodriguez said several detonated near the socialist leader, but he was safe and unharmed. Seven people were injured, he added.

Mr Maduro was “fine” and continuing to work, he said.

"To the conscious Venezuela, we are going to bet for the good of our country, the hour of the economic recovery has come and we need," he was saying before he and others suddenly looked up startled. 

He was standing next to his wife Cilia Flores and several high-ranking military officials for the event. Ms Flores was caught wincing on film, and both she and Maduro look up after an unidentified sound.

The audio then went and the the cameras quickly moved away from Mr Maduro.

The soldiers lined up in ranks then began running and the transmission was cut without explanation.

More than 100 people have been killed in the South American nation in recent months during a series of anti-government demonstrations. The opposition blames Maduro for chronic food and medicine shortages amid an economic collapse.

Earlier this year a report by the United Nations human rights office said that government security forces in the country were carrying out unjustified killings without any apparent consequences, because the rule of law was "virtually absent".   

It cited “credible, shocking” accounts of extrajudicial killings of young men during crime-fighting operations in poor neighbourhoods conducted without arrest warrants.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/venezuela-president-nicolas-maduro-drone-attack-speech-caracas-a8477811.html
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #98 on: August 5, 2018, 01:37:40 am »
So close.
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Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #99 on: August 5, 2018, 01:41:09 am »
And all the world is football shaped, It's just for me to kick in space. And I can see, hear, smell, touch, taste.

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #100 on: August 5, 2018, 01:43:25 am »
Or staged.

More than likely but there are some within the forces than hate the fat bus driver & his little bird.
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Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #101 on: August 5, 2018, 09:17:42 am »
Or staged.
probably, the assassination attempt on Reagan massively boosted his popularity so he probably thought this was a good idea

Offline 24/7

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #102 on: August 5, 2018, 09:37:47 am »
Distraction from the very real issues that are causing rampant hyper inflation and mass migration. Venezuela is making Zimbabwe look like Butlins. :(

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #103 on: August 5, 2018, 10:12:09 am »
Distraction from the very real issues that are causing rampant hyper inflation and mass migration. Venezuela is making Zimbabwe look like Butlins. :(

I was just thinking that when I saw his toy soldiers running around like headless chickens.

Shocking how resource natural rich countries, with more than capable populace, can be run down by corrupt, egotistical megalomaniacs.

Offline Giono

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #104 on: August 5, 2018, 11:39:39 am »
I was just thinking that when I saw his toy soldiers running around like headless chickens.

Shocking how resource natural rich countries, with more than capable populace, can be run down by corrupt, egotistical megalomaniacs.

Just think how bad previous governments were for this many people to support this regime. I agree, it is a country with vast wealth, but so few were participating that this still seems like a step forward to them. That is remarkable.

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #105 on: August 5, 2018, 02:25:31 pm »
Just think how bad previous governments were for this many people to support this regime. I agree, it is a country with vast wealth, but so few were participating that this still seems like a step forward to them. That is remarkable.


somehow I don’t think they support this regime because they see it as the lesser of two evils, just need to look up some of the tricks they pull for the elections

Offline BazC

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #106 on: August 5, 2018, 02:36:04 pm »
Just think how bad previous governments were for this many people to support this regime. I agree, it is a country with vast wealth, but so few were participating that this still seems like a step forward to them. That is remarkable.



There isn’t much support for the regime. There are people in poverty and without access to even basic sanitariums. The recent elections had low turnout due to opposition asking voters to boycott them - there is also a lot of evidence of electoral fraud.

It’s a completely failed state unfortunately. They need new, strong leadership. But even that will be difficult given how fractious the opposition is. There isn’t a democratic system even if there was a credible opposition.
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Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #107 on: August 5, 2018, 02:37:16 pm »
A couple points to make here:

1.  There are many good points here about Venezuelan leadership under Maduro leading to very poor outcomes for ordinary Venezuelans.
      I do not have enough information to add to the richness of this conversation beyond, a leadership vacuum does exist.

2.  However, other than Gulley here, I have yet see in one post the influence the US has had on the Venezualan people and leadership for the last two decades.  Just as we have done in just about every country in the southern hemisphere that explores a more leftist desire to run their country (socializing industry, protecting natural resources, and attempting to manage new monetary policy), the US wins out.

Here are just some examples --- do we blame all of the global left's leaders or can we find an understanding that contributes to their demise?  This list really makes Russian electoral accusation pale in comparison.  Nonetheless, we might consider how mass migration and hyperinflation can be manufactured to coincide with all of the foibles of an existing regimes weaknesses.  Its not rocket science, the CIA has been doing this for a while now.


US Foreign Policy Intrusions (William Blum, 2004)- Killing Hope

1.  China - 1945 to 1960 (Mao)
2.  Italy - 1947-48 (Italy's Elections brought to you by Hollywood)
3.  Greece - 1947-1950's
4.  Philippines - 1940's/1950's (US oldest colony)
5.  Korea - 1945-1953
6.  Albania - 1949-1953 (Kim Philby - proper English spy)
7.  Iran - 1953 (Mossadegh - Rise of the Shah)
8.  Guatemala - 1953-54 (assassination of Arbenz)
9. Costa Rica - Mid 1950's
10. Indonesia - 1957/58
11. British Guiana - 1953-1964
12. Vietnam 1950-1973 - Hearts and Minds
13. Cambodia 1955-1973
14. Laos 1957 - 1973 Clandestine Army
15. Haiti 1959-1963
16. Ecuador 1960-63 Dirty Tricks Textbook
17. Congo 1960-64 Assassination of Lumumba
18. Brazil 1961-64 Introducing Death squads
19. Peru 1960-65 Fort Bragg moves to the jungle
20. Dominican Republic 1960-66 - Killing another leader
21. Cuba 1959-1980 - Trying kill Castro
22. Indonesia 1965 - liquidating Sukarno
23. Uruguay 1964-70 - Torture as US export
24. Chile 1964-1973 - Chicago Boys, Removing Allende
25. Greece 1964-74 - US says Fuck your parliament and constitution
26. Bolivia 1964-75 - Tracking Che in the land of the coup d'etat
27. Iraq 1972-75 - Covert Missionaries
28. Zaire 1975-78 - Mobutu and the CIA
29. Jamaica 1976-80 - Kissinger's ultimatum
30. Libya 1981-1989 - Reagan' plan
31. Nicaragua 1978-1990 - Destabilization policy in slow motion
32. Panama 1969-1991 - Double Crossing our drug supplier
33. Afghanistan 1979-1992 - America's Jihad
34. El Salavador 1980-1994 - Human Rights - Washington style

And there have been many more not listed here during this period, which does not include the most recent cases of US military, aid, and subterfuge from the CIA.

One is particular - https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/us-role-honduras-coup-and-subsequent-violence

In ending, while I agree there are hundreds of dictators and authoritarian leaders across the world misrepresenting their political ideologies, we must not lose the context of the herculean tasks involved just to keep the political arm in power for long enough to enact change.  With the US stated policy as protecting their southern cone from "communist influences" since 1944, I am not sure the US or their media outlets are the best people to judge dictatorships at this point in time (see El Douche): 

And this is what a new leader who opposes a fascist right wing crony capitalistic state has to deal with:

1.  Protect their economy from capital's interference --- not easy at all in this global economy even though they will lose out in the long run
2.  Avoid being assassinated --  so many pieces to this that affect a country's ability to function
3.  Find global partnerships for Trade
4.  Solve problems ordinary people --- at some point this gets to be the reason for removing the "dictator" or violent repression
            --- no mention of the violence or pressure from the US though?


With all due respect here to any changes that need to occur in Venezuela, the absence of discussion about how the US has been salivating for this moment for decades, and how many resources have been committed to this project that are unknown to the public should be cause for some concern.

Maybe not?
« Last Edit: August 5, 2018, 02:42:33 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Offline 24/7

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #108 on: August 5, 2018, 02:42:01 pm »
The US can salivate all it likes. Maduro is the issue. Maduro is the problem. Maduro is the source of the crisis. Maduro need to go. One way or another. Chavez was a bit of a loon but he knew, kinda, what he was doing. Maduro is clueless and corrupt and needs to be fucking killed. End of.

What happens next should - and will - be up to the Venezuelan people - not the US.

Well, those Venezuelans that are left in the country! Many are too fucking afraid to go back. That's a tragedy.

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #109 on: August 5, 2018, 02:42:27 pm »
Then you can argue that what they’re doing isn’t a good idea as it will always fail!

And in the case of Venezuela it wasn’t the US that made Chavez way overspend on social programs instead of build infrastructure at a time of high oil prices that were unsustainable, it wasn’t the US who made those who worked for the state oil company pledge allegiance to Chavez or get fired (and as a consequence their performance massively dropped as many went to Colombia who’s production went up a lot), the US didnt make Chavez eliminate presidential term limits, make chavezs daughter the richest woman in the country, the exchange rate scam, toilet paper there being like a Rolex here etc.
« Last Edit: August 5, 2018, 02:47:59 pm by Lush is the best medicine... »

Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #110 on: August 5, 2018, 02:44:45 pm »
The US can salivate all it likes. Maduro is the issue. Maduro is the problem. Maduro is the source of the crisis. Maduro need to go. One way or another. Chavez was a bit of a loon but he knew, kinda, what he was doing. Maduro is clueless and corrupt and needs to be fucking killed. End of.

What happens next should - and will - be up to the Venezuelan people - not the US.

Well, those Venezuelans that are left in the country! Many are too fucking afraid to go back. That's a tragedy.

Agree that this is a tragedy.  But to lay this at only the feet of Maduro misses the complexity of what has happened to their economy since the US went to war with them.
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #111 on: August 5, 2018, 02:47:18 pm »
The US can salivate all it likes. Maduro is the issue. Maduro is the problem. Maduro is the source of the crisis. Maduro need to go. One way or another. Chavez was a bit of a loon but he knew, kinda, what he was doing. Maduro is clueless and corrupt and needs to be fucking killed. End of.

What happens next should - and will - be up to the Venezuelan people - not the US.

Well, those Venezuelans that are left in the country! Many are too fucking afraid to go back. That's a tragedy.
old friend of mine is Venezuelan, came to the uk to study in the early 90s go study, met someone and had kids and stayed here. Asked her before it really went to shit if she plans on taking her kids back there at some point and there’s no way she’d go back there, thankfully her family are all in New York so don’t have to deal with that fat dickhead in charge there

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #112 on: August 5, 2018, 02:48:28 pm »
Agree that this is a tragedy.  But to lay this at only the feet of Maduro misses the complexity of what has happened to their economy since the US went to war with them.
But nothing, NOTHING, will be fixed until he goes. So yes, it's complex but yes, the problems are at HIS feet cos HE is the one dragging them through the shit like never before. I was there a few years back, before he took power - the differences between now and then are like a chasm. It's terrifying.

Fix the things that can be fixed - do the simplest stuff first - then work on the complexity.

Maduro has to go.

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #113 on: August 5, 2018, 02:50:58 pm »
Then you can argue that what they’re doing isn’t a good idea as it will always fail!

And in the case of Venezuela it wasn’t the US that made Chavez way overspend on social programs instead of build infrastructure at a time of high oil prices that were unsustainable, it wasn’t the US who made those who worked for the state oil company pledge allegiance to Chavez or get fired (and as a consequence their performance massively dropped as many went to Colombia who’s production went up a lot), the US didnt make Chavez eliminate presidential term limits, make chavezs daughter the richest woman in the country etc.

1.  Overspend on social programs?  He's socialist; this is what they do.  You cannot put the capitalistic paradigm and apply it to an error of a Venezuelan leader. 

2.  Well, if you are worried about being assassinated like about 30 other figures in the recent century, you might adopt a more realistic plan for security --- just spit balling here but he could have also gone the way of Pinochet and just been a corrupt puppet of our military industrial complex.

3.  Well, after spending the amount of life, resources and political assets to his plan ---- and not having many friends after deciding to nationalize world resources (ahem --- oil, who knew the US would be pissed?), he was not going to just hand over the keys to the first CIA puppet ex-pat who wanted to go back to the way things were before. 

But if you look at US politics, one can hardly say that is a democracy either.
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #114 on: August 5, 2018, 02:53:23 pm »
old friend of mine is Venezuelan, came to the uk to study in the early 90s go study, met someone and had kids and stayed here. Asked her before it really went to shit if she plans on taking her kids back there at some point and there’s no way she’d go back there, thankfully her family are all in New York so don’t have to deal with that fat dickhead in charge there

I am sure this all true, including the sentiment of fear and being pissed that Venezuela has devolved into what it has become (something I definitely do not have information about) other than local friend here who is Venezuelan and shares many of the same sentiments.
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #115 on: August 5, 2018, 03:03:32 pm »
But nothing, NOTHING, will be fixed until he goes. So yes, it's complex but yes, the problems are at HIS feet cos HE is the one dragging them through the shit like never before. I was there a few years back, before he took power - the differences between now and then are like a chasm. It's terrifying.

Fix the things that can be fixed - do the simplest stuff first - then work on the complexity.

Maduro has to go.

These two sentences highlighted are exactly what is said when CIA operations are taken up to remove a person in power:

1.  Nothing will be "fixed" until HE goes
2.  Maduro has to go

So, this may be accurate from the Venezuelan perspective as well.  But I am awfully careful to utter the exact same memes that US foreign policy figures have been using to depose leaders they do not like from areas in the dominion for 70 years. 

In fact, I would prefer to say that Venezuela needs change, but be careful for what you wish for:

1. See US Change and what it looks like in Honduras -- the death capital of the world at present). 

2. See what US change did for the Soviet Union ---  Harvard business school lackeys helped create oligarchs and instituted shock therapy to an economic system that caused much more mass migration and hyperinflation than in Venezuela with all sorts of geopolitical consequences.  But should we blame one person?  Gorby?  Yeltsin?  Putin?

I share your urgency to solve human rights violations and help create a safer place in Caracas and across Venezuela, but this Maduro has to go piece does not take into account who comes next --- and of they will be capitalistically aligned, backed by the CIA and have "the people's interest" in mind.

Where have I heard this before? 

Anyhow, its an interesting discussion and I imagine very personal experience(s) are attached.  Ones I respect.
« Last Edit: August 5, 2018, 03:19:37 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #116 on: August 5, 2018, 03:06:46 pm »
1.  Overspend on social programs?  He's socialist; this is what they do.  You cannot put the capitalistic paradigm and apply it to an error of a Venezuelan leader. 
you missed the point, he should have spent money on projects that take people out of poverty than keep them in it

Quote
2.  Well, if you are worried about being assassinated like about 30 other figures in the recent century, you might adopt a more realistic plan for security --- just spit balling here but he could have also gone the way of Pinochet and just been a corrupt puppet of our military industrial complex.
seriously?? You think that’s a good idea, besides if it was about his safety then surely sacking loads of them who didn’t agree with him politically makes him less safe?

Quote
3.  Well, after spending the amount of life, resources and political assets to his plan ---- and not having many friends after deciding to nationalize world resources (ahem --- oil, who knew the US would be pissed?), he was not going to just hand over the keys to the first CIA puppet ex-pat who wanted to go back to the way things were before. 
or he was trying to create a dictatorship, Which is what they are

Quote
But if you look at US politics, one can hardly say that is a democracy either.
its far more of one than Venezuela, yet to see trump create his own parliament that supersedes congress and the senate after losing control there

Btw do you honestly think this is better than a Venezuela more aligned with the EU/US, even if it’s a bit of a stooge a capitalistic society is far better than this one they have now
« Last Edit: August 5, 2018, 03:08:55 pm by Lush is the best medicine... »

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #117 on: August 5, 2018, 03:07:40 pm »
Just for the record, I'm not fully convinced that the US will swoop into Venezuela waving the stars and stripes - neither do I want that - no - neither do 99% of the Venezuelan people. Definitely not. They are a proud people and will not allow their nation to be a puppet of the US. Not going to happen.

As for the other stuff, yes, maybe true in certain Central American nations but not Venezuela. It won't happen. Everyone said it would happen in Cuba post-Fidel. Hasn't happened.

Anyway. What the Venezuelan people need is international support. It doesn't have to come from the USA.

I'd ask Kati to come in here and give a perspective but let's be honest here - our resident Venezuelan is too close to the subject to give you the rational debate you're looking for - she has family and friends still there, suffering.

Because of Maduro, not because of the fucking CIA.

(I'm not picking a fight with you either, just so we're 100% clear - peace bro)

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #118 on: August 5, 2018, 03:18:43 pm »
you missed the point, he should have spent money on projects that take people out of poverty than keep them in it
seriously?? You think that’s a good idea, besides if it was about his safety then surely sacking loads of them who didn’t agree with him politically makes him less safe?
or he was trying to create a dictatorship, Which is what they are
its far more of one than Venezuela, yet to see trump create his own parliament that supersedes congress and the senate after losing control there

This is the difference between fighting a war with a country who has the world's reserve currency (21Trillion in national debt it never has to pay back to anyone) and a GDP that dwarfs entire continents, let alone countries.  Have you seen the history of Argentinian financial crises led by US backed corporations who keep sticking it to them with debt upon debt?

Anyway I digress.  Venezuelan monetary policy was predicated on nationalizing oil reserves and taking those profits to fund social programs --- which were thought to be to lift people out of poverty.  What happened when Chavez did this (like Mossadegh in 1950's) is that he and the country made enemies. 

Oil is the US's domain.  And they became a target.  So how does a country like the US degrade the social state of Venezuela to undercut these programs?  Well, they have a playbook to work from --- the same one being used in Alabama, South Carolina, and Kansas at the moment --- use code words about government not working -- foster distrust. 

Then start going after neighbors to pinch flow of resources in and out of the country.  Next, selling individualism, competition and use regional resentment for neighbors to manufacture discontent.  After a decade of this kind of destabilizing trends, it is much easier to see the cynicism, and attack the social programs themselves.  Something that would not have been done when they were introduced.  Combine this with any corruption and natural incompetence that exists in any new kind of system, and you have all the means necessary to show why "social spending does not work".  Right out of the US far right's playbook, ta.
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #119 on: August 5, 2018, 03:27:20 pm »
Just for the record, I'm not fully convinced that the US will swoop into Venezuela waving the stars and stripes - neither do I want that - no - neither do 99% of the Venezuelan people. Definitely not. They are a proud people and will not allow their nation to be a puppet of the US. Not going to happen.

As for the other stuff, yes, maybe true in certain Central American nations but not Venezuela. It won't happen. Everyone said it would happen in Cuba post-Fidel. Hasn't happened.

Anyway. What the Venezuelan people need is international support. It doesn't have to come from the USA.

I'd ask Kati to come in here and give a perspective but let's be honest here - our resident Venezuelan is too close to the subject to give you the rational debate you're looking for - she has family and friends still there, suffering.

Because of Maduro, not because of the fucking CIA.

(I'm not picking a fight with you either, just so we're 100% clear - peace bro)

Great post. 

God, I hope I have not contributed to anyone's suffering with this.   And I am not looking to debate so much (as I am ignorant of the particulars of what is happening in Venezuela). 

My only reason for posting was to imbue the conversation with a small amount of suspicion when ever there is coup supported by uncle Sam --- usually comes directly from their military colleges or neoconservative think tanks.  I feel it is my duty as a disenfranchised American make sure people know what we have done (good, bad and otherwise).  Sorry to derail!

People over Points now.   I hope Kati and her family the very best and you as well, mate 24/7!!!
THIS IS ANFIELD SIGN:
It’s there to remind our lads who they’re playing for and to remind the opposition who they’re playing against! - Bill Shankly

We have everything we need - Jurgen Klopp

You need to get more wives mate, it fixes everything. Apart from then you have loads of wives, which is a nightmare.  -  Djozer