Topic: Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, The North, The South

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Could it work as seperate entities?

Given the lack of reliance on heavy industry in the North nowdays and given the trade, ports and Service Industry could all these areas all split into seperate entities? Would it be possible for the North of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, The South of England and Wales to all be seperate working communities?

Would it be a good idea given the broad ideological differences between the North of England, Scotland and Wales (Socialism) and the South (Non-Socialism) to seperate them for good and have a socialist Government in the North permanently and a Tory one in the south Permanently that both manage their own affairs.

[Welshred]

Wales wouldn't be able to cope without the money it receives from Westminster

[xerxes1]

A good team is a collection of differences.

[BIGdavalad]

I doubt any region outside London could cope as a separate country. Most of the South West would be fucked. Same goes for the North, NI, Scotland and Wales to some extent.

[Butcher Knife Roberto]

being talked about up here (Scotland) a lot at the moment, as the First Minister, Alex Salmond, is pressing for a referendum into independence within the term of this current Scottish Parliament. The SNP recently got a majority in the elections but it was largely a protest vote at the apathy of the Labour party, the betrayal of the LibDems and the outright hatred of the Tories.

The biggest problem now, though, is that Mr Salmond is now pressing ahead with all sorts of hair-brained schemes to devolve further power from the Big Enemy in London, as he can rely upon a majority of votes in Parliament and can press ahead virtually unhindered. The only thing is that the numbers don't add up - he's going on about taking advantage of 'Scotland's oil' in the North Sea (which I think at the last time of looking was UK and Scandinavian oil, not Scotland's solely) as well as setting up renewable energy plants, etc etc. He's not thought ahead to when the oil runs out, and also the complete lack of a manufacturing industry north of the border. Throw into this the Ł100+ billion that the Scottish banks owe the UK taxpayer, and you get the drift - I'll save my tales of racism aimed at me for another day (being an Englishman living up here it does happen from time to time).

While devolved powers on a local basis are a good thing for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, all of the nations are so far intertwined that pulling them apart would not make economic, nor social, sense.

[greenone]

He's not thought ahead to when the oil runs out, and also the complete lack of a manufacturing industry north of the border.

The whole UK is suffering because of this not just Scotland. You can't have a decent stable economy without a manufacturing base.

[The Manhattan Project]

England shouldn't be divided.

A "federal" UK might work, but England should remain as a unified country.

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

How do places like IOM and Luxembourg survive?

[The Gulleysucker]

How do places like IOM and Luxembourg survive?

Relaxed ethics, and not asking too many questions about the sources of the money maybe?

On Independance for Scotland, I suspect it has been as well thought out as the Darien Scheme.

[ds2190]

England shouldn't be divided.

A "federal" UK might work, but England should remain as a unified country.

This. A federal system would be interesting, although I doubt we'll ever see it.

[Suarez325]

Wales wouldn't be able to cope without the money it receives from Westminster

I always thought Wales' share of the pot was pretty proportionate to what they bring in.

Scotland and Northern Ireland are the ones I think would really struggle.

[JoeTwerp]

I doubt any region outside London could cope as a separate country. Most of the South West would be fucked. Same goes for the North, NI, Scotland and Wales to some extent.

what exactly would lead you to believe this? 

[JoeTwerp]

How do places like IOM and Luxembourg survive?

its called trade/division of labor.

what do you even mean by how do they survive?  What do you expect to be happening to them that isn't?

[Slave]

its called trade/division of labor.

It's called being tax havens.

[JoeTwerp]

It's called being tax havens.

and what would prevent any newly independent part of the UK from becoming a tax haven?

[BIGdavalad]

what exactly would lead you to believe this? 

Mostly because London creates such a disproportionate amount of the UK's income through the financial sector based there. Outside of Government jobs (which would disappear in the North, NI, Scotland and Wales if the country was split) there isn't a huge amount of other jobs in the other regions. Not enough to create a successful economy anyway.

[JoeTwerp]

Mostly because London creates such a disproportionate amount of the UK's income through the financial sector based there. Outside of Government jobs (which would disappear in the North, NI, Scotland and Wales if the country was split) there isn't a huge amount of other jobs in the other regions. Not enough to create a successful economy anyway.

but how exactly are rich bankers in London doing anything to help out NI or Scotland at the moment?  I'm guessing you're going to say something about taxes, but I also thought that you lot do nothing all day but complain about how they DONT pay taxes.  Also, 'living' off of largess is no way to go through life or develop your economy, and its unsustainable.  And independent state would be able to give itself a huge advantage in terms of taxes, regulations, and monetary policy.  The economy would shape up in no time.  Just copy only the good bits from the successful secessions in Eastern Europe in the late 80s and 90s.

[Butcher Knife Roberto]

The whole UK is suffering because of this not just Scotland. You can't have a decent stable economy without a manufacturing base.

Is exactly right, which makes the whole idea of Scottish separation from the union a complete and utter non-starter.

[TepidT2O]

The only regions of the uk that contribute more in tax than they receive are London and the south east.

Was talking to the chairperson of the institute of directors a few days ago and I assume he is correct.

[TepidT2O]

Is exactly right, which makes the whole idea of Scottish separation from the union a complete and utter non-starter.

What concerns me about Scottish separation is this idea of irreversibility.

It would take one referendum..one vote to do it, this would reflect public opinion at that point in time, but what if it was against it two years before and two years after... I think something that serious shouldn't be subject to a one off vote.  Does this make sense? It does to me.

[Slave]

and what would prevent any newly independent part of the UK from becoming a tax haven?

Well we've already got Guernsey, Jersey etc., Isle of Man and the ROI surrounding us, any more and it'd be like the Caribbean, minus the weather.

[ds2190]

What concerns me about Scottish separation is this idea of irreversibility.

It would take one referendum..one vote to do it, this would reflect public opinion at that point in time, but what if it was against it two years before and two years after... I think something that serious shouldn't be subject to a one off vote.  Does this make sense? It does to me.

That's the problem that politicians face. People are very quick to criticise but they're in a very difficult position on issues like this.

Do you give in to current public opinion and get blamed for it later, or do you suffer in the short-term but prove you were right in the long-term?

[KERRYKOP]

Any chance we can just take Northern Ireland and leave it at that? Thank you.

[scatman]

as long as the Scottish banks pay off their huge debts to our government, they can fuck off if they like. It would never work though, would there still be freedom of trade? labour? would the currencies be the same? (could cause more issues if they are)

[ds2190]

as long as the Scottish banks pay off their huge debts to our government, they can fuck off if they like. It would never work though, would there still be freedom of trade? labour? would the currencies be the same? (could cause more issues if they are)

I'd imagine that Scotland would want to join the Euro so it could be bailed out in the event of financial difficulties. However, if it's no longer part of the UK then it could have to go through the application process for the EU rather than being granted automatic membership.

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

How do places like IOM and Luxembourg survive?

It's called being tax havens.

and what would prevent any newly independent part of the UK from becoming a tax haven?

My question was rhetorical, surely it's something that could be consdered?

[TepidT2O]

My question was rhetorical, surely it's something that could be consdered?

Being a tax haven brings a certain amount of wealth which can keep a place like iom or Jersey affluent.

A country like Scotland wouldn't attract an incrementally larger amount of money just because of its size and what makes jersey wealthy would be small change to Scotland.

So it would be of little advantage and in reality the exact opposite would probably happen.  Breaking away from the uk would probably result in (say) Scotland having to increase it's taxation and then becoming the exact opposite of a tax haven...a tax "Slough" of you like.

[DanJay87]

too much of a faff

[TepidT2O]

too much of a faff

Are you welsh? I don't know why but that statement sounds typically welsh

[Ferg]

I live in the middle so they'd probably put a fence around us and lock us all in.

[TepidT2O]

I live in the middle so they'd probably put a fence around us and lock us all in.

I'm british, I've got English and Scottish blood, too many ties for separate countries IMO.

[helmboy_nige]

I just don't see the point.  If history has taught us anything, it's better to be united despite our differences, than completely go it alone.

[TepidT2O]

I just don't see the point.  If history has taught us anything, it's better to be united despite our differences, than completely go it alone.

Ah logic, sadly goes out of the window when nationalism rears it's head.

[Okkervil]

Andy makes a good point. We have nothing in common. Lets just give it all the fuck off shall we. I can't even understand a word of all them there Norvan language's you all speak anyways. We've got all them Eastern Europeans down here now so they can clean my solid gold Cockney mansion, while I swig down pints of Kentish ale down the local Conservative club.

Ah logic, sadly goes out of the window when nationalism rears it's head.

Indeed.

[TepidT2O]

Andy makes a good point. We have nothing in common. Lets just give it all the fuck off shall we. I can't even understand a word of all them there Norvan language's you all speak anyways. We've got all them Eastern Europeans down here now so they can clean my solid gold Cockney mansion, while I swig down pints of Kentish ale down the local Conservative club.
Indeed.

Innit blad?

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

I just don't see the point.  If history has taught us anything, it's better to be united despite our differences, than completely go it alone.

Ah logic, sadly goes out of the window when nationalism rears it's head.

It's all well and good saying that, but when you're getting the shit end of the stick for centuries it's just not as simple.

[TepidT2O]

It's all well and good saying that, but when you're getting the shit end of the stick for centuries it's just not as simple.

In my experience Scotland and Wales have got anything but the shit end of the stick.

Quite the opposite in many ways (apart from thatcher introducing pol tax in Scotland first....that was a bit like trying a new paint behind the sofa before doing the whole room)

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

In my experience Scotland and Wales have got anything but the shit end of the stick.

Quite the opposite in many ways (apart from thatcher introducing pol tax in Scotland first....that was a bit like trying a new paint behind the sofa before doing the whole room)

Sorry i'm talking in regards to Northern Ireland, shoddy infrastructure, and money was distributed depending on faith.

[TepidT2O]

Sorry i'm talking in regards to Northern Ireland, shoddy infrastructure, and money was distributed depending on faith.

Ahh, little in the history of Northen Ireland sounds fair or equitable.

Is money still distribution on sectarian grounds?  Wouldn't surprise me, but you hope the good Friday agreement might have stopped such stupidity.

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

Ahh, little in the history of Northen Ireland sounds fair or equitable.

Is money still distribution on sectarian grounds?  Wouldn't surprise me, but you hope the good Friday agreement might have stopped such stupidity.

Well considering that they are actually thinking of cancelling the A5WTC which could potentially open the west of the province to more investment... then yeah, it still goes on.

A majority of the investment in the Northern Ireland still goes to the east of the Bann (Not Including Belfast). Recent times have seen a cross Atlantic 'Internet Cable' relocated to Coleraine that was originally meant for Derry, and also a whole fucking farce over the placement of a Radiotherapy Unit in Derry too.