Author Topic: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?  (Read 10264 times)

Offline redmen9

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,233
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #120 on: June 7, 2013, 11:35:11 am »
With Cardiff joining Swansea in the Premier league next seaon, where's the incentive for Welsh youngsters to watch their local town team play?  I'm from North Wales and spent a few Saturday afternoons down at Farrar Rd in the 80s but the main incentive for me to back Bangor City then was that in the pyramid league, and riding high as well at the time, there was a real chance that they could eventually break into the football league.  Add to that matches against teams that had droppped out of the league and teams that are now in the football league, you felt that the quality of oppositions was far superior, not to mention the annual run in the FA Cup (remember Caernarfon Town's run which ended with being knocked out by Stockport County).

The only way I can see a national league working is to have ALL national teams participating in it and that's never going to happen.

I'd be strongly against a united Celtic countries league or any other united league for that reason for the same reason I was totally against a united Great Britain team for the Olympics.  The individual identities of the home nations is important to preserve.  As Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are amongst the oldest Football Associations, they deserve to keep their independence and this would murky the waters with the idiots in charge at UEFA!

Whilst kids travel across North Wales to go and watch Liverpool, United, Everton and City et al and the South Wales clubs continue their good from, I can only see the decline continuing unfortunately.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #121 on: June 7, 2013, 02:18:47 pm »
FA Level 1 & 2 courses cost approximately £150 & £350 respectively.  I've heard they can be cheaper also.

The UEFA B and A course go into the thousands but around £2k, £3k but someone like PoP can probably confirm.

Just to elaborate on my point, the L1 and L2 courses are not expensive.  To individuals yes, but to a governing body?

I've also been told that the UEFA B and A courses are notoriously difficult to pass through the English FA.

Not if you're an ex-pro or have an international cap. You can spit at the assessors and still pass if you have an England cap. The rest of us poor sods, though, have to tug our forelock at every instance, and hope for the best. Although there ARE some decent assessors out there.

On the other hand, Spain is more equitable and fair, although they do fast track some professional players. But the work load is bigger, there is more theory, and their incentive is to get enough qualified coaches out there to help create a great national team (much like the Dutch and the French and the Germans). The FA, though, are more concerned with keeping ex-professionals in the game.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline LiamG

  • He's loving angels instead. Cos through it all they offer him protection.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,154
  • Y.N.W.A
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #122 on: June 8, 2013, 10:53:40 am »
Could you answer my Q's PoP?

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #123 on: June 8, 2013, 11:22:56 am »
Could you answer my Q's PoP?

What are they? The ones on the cost of UEFA A and B?
Better looking than Samie.

Offline conman

  • Ohh aaaah just a little bit, Ooh aahh, a little bit more. Aerial stalker perv. Not cool enough to get the lolz.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 27,498
    • Cocopoppyhead
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #124 on: June 8, 2013, 12:57:32 pm »
Ahem. I've chatted about this with a friend of mine,  he's a shamrock rovers fan and doesnt follow any premier league teams. When we first started chatting about this topic,  he was bemused why I support Liverpool and not a local club in ireland (bray wanderers) are my nearest club. Which is a fair point, for people who did not grow up in a city or a particularly large town,  the answer is rather simple that there are no teams to support. Ill get back to this soon. I'm typing on my phone here,  so ill list my views in bullet points. I mostly agree with Pop's views btw.

1. GAA is the most popular sport here. Even small villages get hundreds of supporters each week. Larger teams get thousands and county teams fill relatively large stadiums regularly. The following for these games is tribal. So the type of fan the league of ireland covet,  do exist and in large numbers too.

2. Most small towns and parishes do not have soccer (im calling it thst as GAA is considered football also) teams. Those that do ofcourse do not tend to have great coaching. I'm 32 now,  but when I grew up small sports teams like basketball and soccer tended to have one of the players trying to coach,  or if they were lucky their brother may deputise.

3. Many schools in my day threw out the notion of having soccer teams, in favour of GAA teams. This is particularly true in church run schools. Those that did have soccer teams tended to be coached by a teacher or a very poor PE teacher (jack of all sports trades,  master of none)

4. Financial. The GAA I'm told receive very large funding from the government,  as it's a large national sport. Everything g else pales in comparison.

My solution:

This should probably be an fai and government incentive. It makes sense for the government to back this financially as an investment in sport is an investment in health and society as it keeps kids active and off the street corners.

So the government and fai should encourage clubs to be set up in all parishes (towns,  villages, etc). There are no pitches available,  this is true. However there are tonnes of pitches on schools premises. Schools often don't allow access on health and safety grounds ( if someone breaks a leg,  we'd be sued). So the government should for the better of society improve this law so that people are not prohibited from enjoying life. Just because someone falls on your property,  shouldn't make you liable. In the summer,  kids have little to be at,  so leagues that runs through the summer in particular would be great

This incentive should extend to schools too. There should be teams set up in most schools too. These can run through the winter/spring.

The standard of coaching must improve and share similar principles of play nationwide,  which would benefit the national team in years to come. So the coaches of schools teams and club teams in the same parishes could indeed be the same person. So there is no need to double up so much on investment. It also helps continuity. PE teachers could be up skilled too.

Once parishes have kids teams playing decent footy. Parents will follow and support them. This will grow the game from grass roots. Allow these clubs to grow and later they could potentially build their own pitches for senior teams.

OR

These kids teams could feed players to county level,  and there could then be county level teams like the GAA have,  or rugby do with the provinces. This will enable the better players to play with and against better players. Perhaps could ties can compete with existing teams such as rovers and bobs,  etc. Or maybe it's a completely seperate thing. I don't know,   ut I think there is certainly scope to do some of the above.

 Can elaborate more later and fix typos, im getting off my bus now


Offline LiamG

  • He's loving angels instead. Cos through it all they offer him protection.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,154
  • Y.N.W.A
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #125 on: June 8, 2013, 08:44:16 pm »
I think in all fairness the Welsh FA needs like a development guy to oversee the whole structure of it, Like you said invest now get the benefits later! (pop you free? lol)

Was Van Gaal a huge part in the dutch model?


This is quite good!
http://www.jasondevos.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Dutch-Football-Youth-Development.pdf

I was asking about the dutch model PoP :)

Offline LiamG

  • He's loving angels instead. Cos through it all they offer him protection.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,154
  • Y.N.W.A
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #126 on: June 8, 2013, 08:45:06 pm »
Anybody want a job promoting the Welsh premier league?

http://www.faw.org.uk/news/FAW91332.ink?newstype=n


Offline SA RED

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 451
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #127 on: June 8, 2013, 09:16:35 pm »
Reading the OP, I couldn't help but wonder if I should try and get a trial in Wales :P I'm 27 now and haven't trained a single day in my life but I fancy it

Offline RedHopper

  • Hopping to a mightily lofty position and enjoying the view. If only custom titles could be in proportion to the member's average post length? My, what fun we could have! Imagine the sheer edification to be derived from testing the character limi
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,187
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #128 on: June 8, 2013, 09:52:45 pm »
When asked why I support Liverpool, and not a league of Ireland team, my answer is simple, I already have a local team, it's just that they're a junior club that no-one has heard of. What Conman said about most towns not having a 'soccer' team isn't strictly true. However they wont be very big, and their existence means that your 'local' itch for football is scratched. League of Ireland teams have a very small local catchment area.

Take for instance the city of Galway. It has a population of 75,000. You'd think that would be enough to support one professional club, Galway Utd, in the north part of the city. The problem is that instead of getting behind one professional club, instead the western part of the city has Salthill Devon, and the east side of the city has Mervue United, and these three clubs are semi professional clubs in the second tier. Galway United couldn't attract people from across the city, because they weren't local enough. There are also a couple of junior teams that are close enough in size to these bigger three, but they don't want leave junior football. In the city they're also competing for attendance, and participation with I think six or seven GAA clubs, that play Hurling and football, then the galway county teams play out of salthill,  and there is also the Connaught Rugby team based in Galway city as well.

The point is that this localism, combined with other clubs providing more meaningful competitions at a local level (If you're on the county hurling or football team, everyone knows who you are, and you're a minor celebrity, whereas a league of Ireland footballer would pass unnoticed) means that the League of Ireland is going to always struggle, even before you take into account the overwhelming dominance of the Premiership on TV.

The way ahead for the League of Ireland, is as a collection of fan run trusts, run with rigid breakeven requirements. If that means more clubs becoming semi-professional in the short run, then so be it. Any excess money should be shovelled into infrastructure and youth development. If the FAI have to buy the stadia from the clubs, as in the case of Cork City, then well and good.

Probably the best approach for the FAI is to start getting the people already participating in coaching in the existing club structures qualified to the UEFA standard. If the FAI can get a higher quality of coaching at the league of Ireland, and the existing junior and schoolboy clubs, then you would start to see the impact start to filter down to the children currently playing throughout the country.

Essentially the future for the league of Ireland depends on the FAI sufficiently raising the level of footballing education offered, to the point that the players who filter into the league, will all have had the benefits of a high level of underage coaching. This combined with financial stability will raise the quality of the football on the pitch, and hopefully they can build from there. It will provide a better secondary path for players into the premiership, for players like long, coleman, houlahan, Doyle, meyler etc, and transfer fees for players like these can be reinvested in stadia, training facilities and coaching.

The major problem is that the FAI or the league don't have a pot to piss in, and there's no money from the government. You'd have to wonder what exactly they spent the boom years doing.

Offline conman

  • Ohh aaaah just a little bit, Ooh aahh, a little bit more. Aerial stalker perv. Not cool enough to get the lolz.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 27,498
    • Cocopoppyhead
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #129 on: June 9, 2013, 12:11:59 am »
Redhopper. When i was younger,  there was one football team in my county. My town had a team on and off. Our school was not allowed a team,  the vector were allowed though and the royal school too. Doesn't mean they ever had any formal coaching.

Mind you, I live near greystones now and they've a tonne of youth teams. My local village shankill has 2 teams.


Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #130 on: June 9, 2013, 02:02:43 am »
I was asking about the dutch model PoP :)

Ah, didn't see that!

Bert van Lingen is the main man for the Dutch model, in terms of implementing it, but I think Michels had a large hand in the formation of the philosophy too (and probably Cruyff, because he gets involved in everything :D). I'm not sure Van Gaal concerned himself with anything with the KNVB other than the national team, but wickedbark could tell us more about that.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline LiamG

  • He's loving angels instead. Cos through it all they offer him protection.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,154
  • Y.N.W.A
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #131 on: June 9, 2013, 07:42:57 am »
Probably the best approach for the FAI is to start getting the people already participating in coaching in the existing club structures qualified to the UEFA standard. If the FAI can get a higher quality of coaching at the league of Ireland, and the existing junior and schoolboy clubs, then you would start to see the impact start to filter down to the children currently playing throughout the country.

Essentially the future for the league of Ireland depends on the FAI sufficiently raising the level of footballing education offered, to the point that the players who filter into the league, will all have had the benefits of a high level of underage coaching. This combined with financial stability will raise the quality of the football on the pitch, and hopefully they can build from there. It will provide a better secondary path for players into the premiership, for players like long, coleman, houlahan, Doyle, meyler etc, and transfer fees for players like these can be reinvested in stadia, training facilities and coaching.

The major problem is that the FAI or the league don't have a pot to piss in, and there's no money from the government. You'd have to wonder what exactly they spent the boom years doing.

Investment being the key thing for any Football Association, My belief is there is a lot of untapped talent in Wales, you only have to look at the recent players coming through like Bale & Allen

1 of the problems in Wales too is, In school in P.E the sport that is played the most is Rugby, i don't know if it's the same for all schools in Wales but definitely all of them in my area! Yes there is football school teams but it isn't played much in lessons! i imagine in England it's different?

How would the Welsh FA go about investing in more coaches etc? by sponsoring coaches to go on courses,uefa B license etc?

Offline conman

  • Ohh aaaah just a little bit, Ooh aahh, a little bit more. Aerial stalker perv. Not cool enough to get the lolz.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 27,498
    • Cocopoppyhead
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #132 on: June 10, 2013, 05:19:26 pm »
For me it's all about getting lots more coaches into the game and having all coaches qualified as much as possible. Get them all adhering to an nationwide philosophy.

They will also need to grow the grassroots game in some rural areas that do not have teams.

Can the fai / ifa or whoever afford to do all this? Can they attract the coaches? Can they coerce the government to distribute substantial grants in the name of improving the health of the nation and keeping kids off the streets?

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #133 on: June 10, 2013, 10:23:44 pm »
Vic Buckingham. All I really need to say. ;D :P

:D
Better looking than Samie.

Offline LiamG

  • He's loving angels instead. Cos through it all they offer him protection.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,154
  • Y.N.W.A
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #134 on: June 22, 2013, 04:31:11 pm »
Bangor losing their reserve team due to financial losses due to lack of europe this season....

Not a good sign for one of the biggest clubs in the league to lose a reserve team to be honest!


Offline LiamG

  • He's loving angels instead. Cos through it all they offer him protection.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,154
  • Y.N.W.A
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #135 on: June 23, 2013, 09:46:34 am »
Does anyone how many age groups and coaches a typical semi pro club would normally need to have a successful plan in place for the future

Offline kopitecrash

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,011
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #136 on: June 23, 2013, 11:43:38 am »
For football to grow in smaller league there needs to be a (possibly FA funded) youth footballing program for all the clubs. You improve the youngsters, you improve the football, you get more people to watch them.
You could open a door with him, he's such a knob.

Offline LiamG

  • He's loving angels instead. Cos through it all they offer him protection.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,154
  • Y.N.W.A
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #137 on: June 24, 2013, 09:36:11 am »
But say i win the lottery tomorrow night and i buy my local team Bangor City

i'd need to invest in a proper football academy with all age groups and plenty of qualified coaches? or is there more to it than that


Offline David Healy...

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #138 on: June 24, 2013, 01:26:10 pm »
I don't know why Northern Irish football isn't played during the summer. Much less competition with England, and also with our awful weather and poor stadia resulting in a lot of games being called off it makes much more sense to me.

Offline LiamG

  • He's loving angels instead. Cos through it all they offer him protection.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,154
  • Y.N.W.A
Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #139 on: June 25, 2013, 07:42:30 am »
Same goes for the welsh league, i think it will happen eventually, but so many welsh league fans are against it, no idea why