Topic: Thread Derailing, Persistent Negativity and Agenda Driven Spin

[Hinesy]

We at RAWK Towers have been having a debate about what some of us term 'persistent negativity' and some  perceive it to be 'telling it how it is'.

RAWK has long had a tradition of being a site that tries to espouse all the best qualities of being a proper Liverpool supporter. We may be a right shower of bastards when we lose, but irrespective of a single match's result, or several, we still support the club, the manager and the players. We are or were, those who understood its all about the long term.

There is however an increasing concern about short termism and persistent pessimism from a few but vocal set of posters.

This may be due to the non stop demand for news from 24hr multi platform news sites, feeding off and analysing every little scrap and titbit, actually hyping seeming nonsense into the status of 'important news' as there isn't anything else to talk about.

Or it may be that some of the fan base has changed into those who don't get it.

The majority of match going fans do not think that way. That's a fact.



Albie (92A) put it beautifully here:


http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=301493.msg11222135#msg11222135


We are currently thinking about the best way to proceed, because we have never wanted to prevent opinions being expressed, we make it quite clear: debate and criticise fairly and rationally but don't abuse and piss take.

You could argue there should be a policy that allows more wariness of the owners, and in a way, we do have that on here. But one thing we won't tolerate is pisstaking, abusive writing and irrational name calling be it about our manager or our players...


So basically what we're saying is this:

Action will be taken on those posters who persist in commenting in every thread going, pulling threads down or derailing them with the same repetitive arguments time and time again.

We want posters to express their opinions good or bad, and we want healthy debate. However we do not want incessant angry pessimism clogging up every new thread.

Our collective view is below.

Thanks.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

There is a growing feeling amongst the RAWK staff that the persistent negativity and sniping at the club by a small but extremely vocal section of our support is ruining debate on the site as it effectively turns every thread into a rerun of the same tired argument about the owners.

Not only is this ruining debate it is ruining our enjoyment of the site and presumably the enjoyment of other users.  For many of us it is ruining it to the point where we are close to jibbing the site completely and going back to simply talking about footy with our mates down the pub or at the match.  Both places where in our experience people are far more willing to just enjoy this season for what it is.

RAWK is a fansite and it's raison d'etre is to talk about football and particularly going to Liverpool games.  With that in mind persistent thread derailers will be getting a short mute should they do so again in the future.  Those unable to modify their behaviour may find that the length of subsequent mutes gets longer and longer.

We will have one thread on the ownership situation where those with nothing better to do can pontificate on the issue to their heart's content.

[The 5th Benitle]

I'm of the view that people are entitled to their opinions, I really am.
 
What I fail to understand is why some users feel they need to make the same points over and over again? We, indeed the whole site, know the entrenched views of certain users on FSG, on transfer budgets, on the lack of CEO, on certain members of staff, hell even some players. This incidentally extends to both sides of most debates.
 
You don't need to mention these views in multiple topics or, even worse, bend a topic in such a direction that you can espouse said views yet again. You might think it does no harm but it really does. The amount of great posters who only now post in Flagpole Corner, or have left RAWK because of the incessant agendas of certain users is too large, and growing all the time.
 
There are also those who take it upon themselves to repeatedly argue with those they perceive as too negative. Please don't, your intentions are good but it just perpetuates the issue in a boring 'handbagging' style.
 
Please have a think. You can have your view, but you don't need to post it 100 times particularly as more often than not the argument is one where both sides are too entrenched to find any middle ground. That's not debate, it's a particularly dull and long tennis rally with no winner.
 

[Barney_Rubble]

If there's one thing that makes a shite situation n times worse, it's when people insist on going on... and on... and on... and on... and on, whining and belly-aching about how shite the situation is.

YES. WE KNOW. WE GET IT. OK.

We are where we are, and the reasons why we are where we are should be well known to any Liverpool fan who hasn't spent the last three or four years living in a cave. Progress is clearly not at the pace we'd all like (it never is, whatever the pace), but no-one said it would happen overnight, which some people seem unable to grasp. Meanwhile back in the real world, the things that will best increase the rate of progress are hard work, belief, patience and unity. With particular emphasis on patience and unity.

No-one ever said you can't criticise anything or anybody but people need to get a fucking grip and change the tune now and again. What's really fucking laughable is that these relentless critics have not a scintilla of experience in running a football club or coaching a team, and all that other stuff etc.

[the 92A]

If I had the choice I'd never open a thread on RAWK that had anything to do with the ownership. It's not because I think the owners are wonderful, I don't. Just like any businessmen ultimately they're here to make money and I think they've made some big mistakes but pushed I've got to admit I'm not too fussed with any owners and looking around the Premiership we could do a lot worse, the Venkys, Glazers, Abramovich, the idiots running Southampton need I go on?  However every thread has the same posters tediously repeating arguments we've heard a thousand times on both sides with no concern about anyone who doesn't see the issue as either totally black or totally white.

No one wants to stop debate but repeating your view over and over without listening to others isn't debating. There are genuine worries about the ownership that are pushed aside because in every thread we have the same posters destroying the thread with no concern for for anyone who doesn't  agree with their position.  We've got to the point where this constant negativity is damaging the site.

I personally don't know what we can do about it, I feel like locking every thread that descends into this  sort of fundamentalism but that wouldn't be fair to other users. At the match people have their concerns about the club but the atmosphere is different to the site, there is far more patience being shown especially towards the manager. The site is not reflecting that patience at the moment and is the poorer for not doing so. I don't face the negativity I do on RAWk at the match, debate, concern, yes but I'd never stand talking in an ale house with someone who just kept repeating their view and didn't listen to others I'd Move away like any of us would. The danger is that a lot decent posters will do that exactly that with RAWK and leave the site to those shouting the loudest while everyone else will have edged away and then they'll be shouting in an empty room. Ironically some of those who are shouting the loudest are alright when they talk quietly and stop preaching.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

And a final thought about living for the moment.

In the recent clusterfuck omnishambles of a thread about Luis Suarez some particularly unhinged bellend posted the usual nonsense about the owners this that and the other and finished with "enjoy watching Suarez for the next six months because he will be off in the summer".

Now the post was generally shit but where there's muck there's brass and in exhorting us to watch Luis Suarez play for the remainder of the season as we may not see him again it gave some important advice about living for the moment.  In honesty I have probably followed that advice since Kevin Keegan left and broke my nine year old heart.  These are mere players who flicker briefly before ever so briefly before being replaced, for better or for worse.  Removed from us by injury or age or greed or even the desire to flicker briefly on a different stage.

Live for the moment, enjoy the players we have, enjoy the way we are playing when we play well.  Take each game as it comes, and make the most of it.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Open for general discussion and accusations of soup nazism

[No666]

Needless to say I agree with Barney, its the parroting that grates.

 
Humour and originality in one sentence, just what we're missing.

[horne]

havnt got time to read all the posts above...but have read enough 
about time too...the liverpool way is the way forward
a sticky explaining the liverpool way in bold....anyone going off on a tangent should be referred back to it...a two day ban with that sticky being the only access ....to learn from!

[Skidder.]

You should make a room 101 section, and just lash culprits in there for a week.

Like a good old fashion stocks.

[hitman89762000]

It does get a little frustratibg at times and i'll hold my hands up to being more negative/cynaical regarding brendan on here possibly i think this is down to kenny being sacked and if im honest it could have been the same no matter who got the job after his sacking..

BUT

This whole "we've no money/they're selling us/we're not spending money vs we've spent x amount/fsg are learning/they're not tom and george/ continous debates/haranguing of people etc is incredibly frustrating especially in te transfer window thread its ledto me stopping posting any info i get given because either way its either going to upset or frustrate people if te info ive been given in good faith doesnt happen.. In fac its that whole transfer window board thats helping te cynicism continue imo..

Hope you dont mind me saying all this.

[Kenny Red]

Here here!!!

About time as well, the site was turning into the forum manifestation of Cold Play. It was hard to find a thread to seek solace without the same tired shit being regurgitated.

Things aren't perfect, but they're no where near as bad as some make out.

The futures bright - the futures red!

[Carlito Roberto]

Great news.

This is a fantastic LFC website, the best out there by a million miles.

Unfortunately there's a minority on here and everyone knows who they are, who use every opportunity to peddle their pathetic agenda about the owners and it brings down the overall quality of the site.

Glad it's being addressed.

[SerbianScouser]

Allelujah!

[Juanyboy]

And a final thought about living for the moment.

.......................

Live for the moment, enjoy the players we have, enjoy the way we are playing when we play well.  Take each game as it comes, and make the most of it.

we shouldn't have to be reminded of this but it is oh, so necessary.

Top, top statement

[givemekaliber]

Very fair points that I feel needed to be made. I do think though that its going to take a lot of moderating and a lot of work (I know you do a lot anyway)
Prepare for the 'free speech' brigade 

[Eeyore]

As one of the worst culprits I can't really disagree with what the mods have said it does get monotonous, circular and repetitive and something does need to be done about it because there are entrenched posters on both sides unwilling to even engage with each other. For me heads need cracking together on both sides because the number of myths passed off as fact are ridiculous.

The danger for me is that there is a fine line between repetitive arguments and posters deliberately trying to shout people down and close debate especially when we have a regime so effective in the art of spin.

Here's hoping the mods strike the right balance.

[MichaelA]

Here's hoping the mods strike the right balance.

We're ready to strike something.

[helmboy_nige]

I'm generally against censorship as it's risks getting a little draconian, but the reason RAWK is the only liverpool forum I visit is because of how well it is moderated.  The moderation seems to be done along simple lines of the Liverpool Way.  Be fair, be honest and respect the club, the fans and the manager.

To the mods above, well said.  I've found it hard to respond in detail with some of the negative posts recently as when I have they tend to be just shot down with the same comments.

Nice to see chaps.

[Caligula?]

Well, this is (kind of) news to me.

Reason being: I just ignore them. Any argument about the owners I come across and in general about things that have been regurgitated a million times I just choose to ignore and post about what the topic's actually about.

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

The last time something like this happened - July 2010 - when RAWK decided that it wasn't the done thing to post about H+G in all the topics and actually have a topic here people could wank about the pulling-the-wool-over-the-eyes signing of Joe Cole, I think I got banned.

This is needed this time. The discussion on here is so fucking circular lately.

[Hinesy]

As one of the worst culprits I can't really disagree with what the mods have said it does get monotonous, circular and repetitive and something does need to be done about it because there are entrenched posters on both sides unwilling to even engage with each other. For me heads need cracking together on both sides because the number of myths passed off as fact are ridiculous.

The danger for me is that there is a fine line between repetitive arguments and posters deliberately trying to shout people down and close debate especially when we have a regime so effective in the art of spin.

Here's hoping the mods strike the right balance.

You are and we hope we will

[Sir Capon of Debaser]

Well in lads.

[Red Genius]

I find it incredibly difficult to 'discuss' with people who are looking to extract negatives without looking at the bigger picture. I said right at the start of this season it would be a slog, transitional... all those words no supporter wants to hear. Nobody wants to know that the season is one about inconsistency and graft.

We've made huge strides in such a small period of time really, we've adopted a new system, cleared out a lot of players brought some new ones in. Turned over a poor home record into a good one and are beating the teams below us home and away, now we need to develop the strength of character to turn out good performances against the better teams, when we've cracked that we'll be right back up where we want to be.

Not bad really all in around 6 months worth of work really. In 12months time i would expect to see us bubbling around the top 5 spots and in contention. We're not that far off now in reality, but we're not a City or a Chelsea, it's about small steps forward over a period of time and for me weve been making them.

[Redman0151]

Spot on.

It's got to the point where you can't open certain threads, be it Carragher, Gerrard (which is disgraceful as they are 2 legends), Coates, anything on Rodgers because you know the same couple bell ends will be spouting nonsense about them and what has happened in the past.

[Max_powers]

 

All this repeated shit just makes threads boring to read. I try not to come here after a defeat knowing very well what is going to posted on here.

[SP]

The danger for me is that there is a fine line between repetitive arguments and posters deliberately trying to shout people down and close debate especially when we have a regime so effective in the art of spin.

Here's hoping the mods strike the right balance.

There is a time and a place argument. The really pernicious stuff is not the topics that discuss FSG ownership. Don't get me wrong, they are still car crashes, but they join a lengthening list of topics that don't end well. The major problem is how unrelated topics are twisted from their original theme into the same discussions. As owners FSG are tangentially related to every aspect of the club, but that does not excuse the usual suspects having the same debate in unrelated topics. It then becomes self-reinforcing as posters are deterred from posting in the main board.

[LondonRedMan]

I have been debating and trying to pacify the folks espousing a more negative stance on decisions, tactics, the current state of the club, playing staff and manager.

What I hve noticed is that they are more vocal after a poor result. For me, a lot of their statement-making is actually disappontment-fuelled (due to a poor result). This has to be taken into account when dialoguing with them.

The bigger picture is what I point them too. I'm convinced the majority of them - once the disappointment and emotions have died down - can recognize this.

This is a very interesting stance the forum is taking. I reckon, rather than the shadow of censorship, the shadow of rational, contextualized argumentation is more edifying to the forum, the club and the fans as a collective.

A difference of opinion is natural.So is the swaying of opinions through dialogue.

Surely people like ourselves would be better serving the club by continuing to repel the negativity through convincing people through articulation of argumentation.

We believe our position of a 'work in progress' and contextualization (the changed landscape of English football and the impact of the last few years at boardroom levl on LFC) is stronger. I reckon we can convince these people out of negativity through dialogue. Would censorship do the same? I don't think so

[paddysour]

This is the best business we could have done this January 


The most frustrating thing for me is not that people are negative. It's when they're wrong and shown how they're wrong, they just ignore the posts proving it and carry on with just plain false info.

[Hij]

Completely agree. Have found it incredibly frustrating on here recently. Like some have mentioned, at times as a lurker when I am not posting it barely feels like there is a thread where perspective (not necessarily people being positive) can be found. 

[LondonRedMan]

I'm of the view that people are entitled to their opinions, I really am.
 
What I fail to understand is why some users feel they need to make the same points over and over again? We, indeed the whole site, know the entrenched views of certain users on FSG, on transfer budgets, on the lack of CEO, on certain members of staff,  even some players. This incidentally extends to both sides of most debates.
 
You don't need to mention these views in multiple topics or, even worse, bend a topic in such a direction that you can espouse said views yet again. You might think it does no harm but it really does. The amount of great posters who only now post in Flagpole Corner, or have left RAWK because of the incessant agendas of certain users is too large, and growing all the time.
 
There are also those who take it upon themselves to repeatedly argue with those they perceive as too negative. Please don't, your intentions are good but it just perpetuates the issue in a boring 'handbagging' style.
 
Please have a think. You can have your view, but you don't need to post it 100 times particularly as more often than not the argument is one where both sides are too entrenched to find any middle ground. That's not debate, it's a particularly dull and long tennis rally with no winner.

This is an interesting comment. Sure the negativity we have been debating against is repetitive in the sense the same arguments are brought to the table each time. However, to be fair, in debate this shows consistency on their part.

So it's important we stick to combating these arguments through dialogue in order to convince them to our position.

If certain people are regularly guilty of this, why not simply PM them. This should help alleviate the repetition

[Crosby Nick]

Well said. I can't say I had noticed a sea change of late til I entered the Suarez thread the other day. Good god! Entrenched is exactly the right word. It feels like we are so used to infighting that we have to pick a side and defend it to the death.

Cards on the table here...I love Rafa...I love Kenny...I'm enjoying seeing Rodgers go about his work and hope he succeeds. In fact, is love it (Keegan style). I don't see how it has to always be a case of one side or the other. Oh, and FSG don't seem that bad either. Could be better, we know better than anyone they could be worse.

Let's get behind the team, enjoy the end of the season...would proposing a group hug be going too far?

Oh, and if the persistent moaners get the good eggs who put the time and effort in here to run this asylum to sack this off I, and countless other sad bastards who spend too long in here will hunt you down. Each and every one.

[JerseyKloppite]

The transfer forum is particularly bad for this at the moment. Thread after thread has been derailed by people with an anti-FSG agenda, and it's tired and dull.

[walshys_mullet]

I guess im one of the biggest culprits but then I've always been a moaning get on here.

Its just frustration, but to be fair others on the other side are as entrenched as some of us! And I genuinely have always said Rodgers needs time and patience and is doing a good job.

Maybe in time my view will soften with actions more than statements, but I get it, ill keep my head down, from now on. And chav is sorry for calling you a tit before.

You'd think with a new daughter id be more chilled.

[GODS LEFT BOOT]

Not only is this ruining debate it is ruining our enjoyment of the site and presumably the enjoyment of other users.  For many of us it is ruining it to the point where we are close to jibbing the site completely and going back to simply talking about footy with our mates down the pub or at the match.  Both places where in our experience people are far more willing to just enjoy this season for what it is.

I haven't been on RAWK for that long- four or five years?  but I remember when I found it being relieved that a place existed away from the kind of nonsense that has being growing of late - its just childish to be talking about the manager's position.

Lots of fans from other clubs and the media know about this place and to have a bright, young, respectful manager mocked ( not to mention Stevie and Jamie) is just not on - anyone can call themselves a supporter but the clue is in the title.

If its true that some of you have thought about jacking it in then that is sad to hear but I think you will find a lot of support for what you are trying to do.

[Floydy]

To be fair, despite teh fact i have curbed my negativity of late i have still been guilty in the past,  I have seen the errors of my ways as the club is the most important, not who owns it or manages it.   In my defence I have been scarred from the whole H&G saga, for me the liverpool way was diluted back then to the point there was nearly nothing left. With all of the non football/ scouse people in charge and the press ready to declare a national holiday once our great club is finished its eben more important that us teh fans re ignite teh liverpool way and carry that forward into the future for our children etc, otherwise there will be fuck all left. I look at the club now and compare it to when me arl fella statrted taking me on teh kop in the mid 80's, we have to try and get that spirit back. 
We are stronger as a unit, nobody does defiance like the Kop.

[The 5th Benitle]

Walshys and Al

Huge respect to you for recognising yourselves, we couldn't possibly comment as we won't name names!

With regards to your comments about those on the other side of the fence, believe I did cover that in one of the earlier posts on this thread. The handbagging is just as boring.

[Schwindlig]

Speaking as a full time lurker, I think what also needs to be addressed are the characters who feel the need to say the same thing again and again regardless of topic. Doesn't have to be about the owners necessarily, but you see the same faces spouting their views ad nauseam (normally amongst themselves and the odd random who doesn't look back at the whole thread) in so many threads it's borderline unbelievable. Do they not work?

Often it seems as though there is quite a bit of venom in their posts and I imagine it puts others off, I know I've been thinking about leaving recently, and if a new user - who could be a most wonderfully articulate and reasoned human - came in to see what's being discussed they would no doubt hit the x in the upper right corner (not very osx of me I know).

I absolutely believe in the freedom of speech, just not the diarrhea form. I often wonder if people manage to get themselves erect/wet by their post count growth.

[TheTeflonJohn]

Good stuff lads. Tired of constantly seeing threads locked. It`s been like a pissed up version of the Chuckle Brothers recently.

FSG are shit

No there not

Yes they are

No the.......

JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP!

[Hinesy]

I've deleted a couple of posts on here, because this isn't the thread to be perpetuating your own agenda and opinion, be it right or wrong, about the club..