Author Topic: General Political discussion with kesey-style vibes & tantric breathing stuff...  (Read 359063 times)

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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The Panorama doc was a hatchet job. Real issues exist and require strong, corrective action, but the BBC is better than the fabrication of certain elements of the program that were seen. Corbyn is certainly not the cunning anti-Semite Jew hater some claim him to be.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the house we are about to initiate a prime minister with a proven track record of racism, homophobia and general idiocy, leading a party with clearly institutionalised racism and classism. Hypocrisy is the way forward in life.

Fabrication & whataboutery   


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Offline Zeb

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The Panorama doc was a hatchet job. Real issues exist and require strong, corrective action, but the BBC is better than the fabrication of certain elements of the program that were seen. Corbyn is certainly not the cunning anti-Semite Jew hater some claim him to be.

Which parts were fabricated? (Genuine question.) Had a look at some of the complaints about the editing of the e-mails but they're actually worse for Labour when unedited and placed into context. eg Milne's e-mail was edited to remove the reference which leads to the specific case about which he was opining a general principle - Jackie Walker's which was due to be heard a couple of weeks after he sent that e-mail edit: sorry, long day. It was JVL's Glyn Secker's case for that one.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 01:20:32 am by Zeb »
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Offline BoRed

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Corbyn aide criticises 'irresponsible' Watson

Labour's general secretary has accused deputy leader Tom Watson of being "irresponsible" for criticising the way the party has dealt with anti-Semitism.

Since when is Labour's general secretary "Corbyn's aide"? They just want to make it look like she said it in his name.

Offline The Real Rasta

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Unfortunately, nothing quite illustrates the gulf between those of us who have sympathy for that guy and those featured in the programme trying to do their job, and this considered response from someone who shall remain nameless...

Sadly, we seem to share this world, and this website, with some complete and utter twats.




Guess that answers my question. What a snivelling discompassionate little runt that hatefully-programmed man is.
I must say I find it a bit rich to see you say about lacking sympathy and being discompassionate when you are both part of a group of posters that constantly bully and abuse said poster, who while he might be quite misguided at times is not coming from a bad place and certainly doesn't treat you as you treat him.


You are all aware of his situation, the man is still clearly grieving and hurting and has found something to get behind and while you may not agree with him or his views (I certainly don't at times), the glee with which you all gang up on him is disgusting. I mean a mod has even seen fit to change his old name which was clearly a portmanteau of his and his wife's name to something completely juvenile which is so disrespectful to both him and her memory, lacking sympathy and discompassionate indeed.

Offline Alan_X

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I must say I find it a bit rich to see you say about lacking sympathy and being discompassionate when you are both part of a group of posters that constantly bully and abuse said poster, who while he might be quite misguided at times is not coming from a bad place and certainly doesn't treat you as you treat him.


You are all aware of his situation, the man is still clearly grieving and hurting and has found something to get behind and while you may not agree with him or his views (I certainly don't at times), the glee with which you all gang up on him is disgusting. I mean a mod has even seen fit to change his old name which was clearly a portmanteau of his and his wife's name to something completely juvenile which is so disrespectful to both him and her memory, lacking sympathy and discompassionate indeed.

Many of us are grieving mate. I lost my father earlier this year - we scattered his ashes two weeks ago. It also brought back memories of my sister whose life was tragically cut short in a car accident leaving her one year old son an orphan. I have no doubt that there are many others who post in here who have lost loved ones. That deserves our sympathy but it doesn’t give anyone a free ride.

It’s also a bit rich to ask for compassion when the tweet in question was laughing about someone contemplating suicide. We give Trada a lot of leeway precisely because of his long standing on the site and because of the loss of his partner. If you want to see bullying I suggest you go on line and look at the behaviour of his fellow Corbynistas.

If anyone posts propaganda straight from Squawkbox, Twitter or their Facebook feed they will be ridiculed and rightly so. And if that Tweet had been a post on here anyone who posted it would have been muted or banned.

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Offline TepidT2O

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The Panorama doc was a hatchet job. Real issues exist and require strong, corrective action, but the BBC is better than the fabrication of certain elements of the program that were seen. Corbyn is certainly not the cunning anti-Semite Jew hater some claim him to be.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the house we are about to initiate a prime minister with a proven track record of racism, homophobia and general idiocy, leading a party with clearly institutionalised racism and classism. Hypocrisy is the way forward in life.
Which bits were fabricated?
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Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Corbyn is certainly not the cunning anti-Semite Jew hater some claim him to be.
nobody calls him cunning because he’s fucking thick
Quote
Meanwhile, on the other side of the house we are about to initiate a prime minister with a proven track record of racism, homophobia and general idiocy, leading a party with clearly institutionalised racism and classism. Hypocrisy is the way forward in life.
so the Tories are institutionally racist but the party who’s own investigators became suicidal and have mental health issues over how they handle antisemitism aren’t? Ok...

Offline Team Sleep

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Quote
Bridlington North (East Riding of Yorkshire) result:

LDEM: 42.7% (+42.7)
CON: 26.6% (-44.5)
YORK: 11.4% (+11.4)
UKIP: 6.4% (+6.4)
LAB: 4.4% (-24.5)
IND (Dixon): 4.1% (+4.1)
IND (Robson): 2.5% (+2.5)
IND (Milns): 1.9% (+1.9)

Liberal Democrat GAIN from Conservative.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1149456877509648389

Interesting to see both major parties continue to lose ground. East Riding of Yorkshire was a 60.4% vote to Leave.

Quote
Whitecross (Herefordshire) result:

IOC: 60.7% (+13.0)
LDEM: 28.1% (+10.5)
CON: 11.2% (-3.4)

'It's Our County' HOLD.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1149439804163153920

Offline Libertine

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Interesting to see both major parties continue to lose ground. East Riding of Yorkshire was a 60.4% vote to Leave.


Just the 43% swing to Lib Dems then, off a 69% drop in support for Con/Lab.  :D

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Offline classycarra

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I must say I find it a bit rich to see you say about lacking sympathy and being discompassionate when you are both part of a group of posters that constantly bully and abuse said poster, who while he might be quite misguided at times is not coming from a bad place and certainly doesn't treat you as you treat him.

You are all aware of his situation, the man is still clearly grieving and hurting and has found something to get behind and while you may not agree with him or his views (I certainly don't at times), the glee with which you all gang up on him is disgusting. I mean a mod has even seen fit to change his old name which was clearly a portmanteau of his and his wife's name to something completely juvenile which is so disrespectful to both him and her memory, lacking sympathy and discompassionate indeed.

You think I bully him? And you're only just saying this now, when I've label him discompassionate for laughing and joking about someone with suicidal thoughts because he thinks they have different politics?

If you really think that, you've chosen an odd time to level that claim on me. Why haven't you tried to prevent bullying when you believe you've seen it happening? And please can you back up your accusation with some evidence? I disagree with him regularly and strongly, particularly when he's in his abusive and dismissive mode - surely you're not just using the fact that other people also disagree with him to suggest there's some bullying campaign. I can only imagine you haven't seen his abusive messages to me and others because mods have cleaned them up already.
 
I've accounted for his mental health in most of my posts, particularly when he is coming across misguided and provocative, rather than spiteful and hateful. I think it's healthy for him to hear dissenting views and to be encouraged to challenge his entrenched/guarded perceptions. And it's precisely because of mental health that I thought he was being scummy in that tweet, and thought it needed confronting instead of appeased.

Offline BoRed

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And if that Tweet had been a post on here anyone who posted it would have been muted or banned.

But this is supposed to be an anonymous forum, it's a bit creepy when people start reporting on what other users do elsewhere.

Offline classycarra

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But this is supposed to be an anonymous forum, it's a bit creepy when people start reporting on what other users do elsewhere.
Bit of a sensationalist line to take!

I've never checked his twitter, but given most of what Trada posts is direct from what he has curated for him there it doesn't seem like he's being reported on.

Nor is he anonymous - I just googled "Trada Twitter" and the first link is clearly his account

Offline Mutton Geoff

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You think I bully him? And you're only just saying this now, when I've label him discompassionate for laughing and joking about someone with suicidal thoughts because he thinks they have different politics?

If you really think that, you've chosen an odd time to level that claim on me. Why haven't you tried to prevent bullying when you believe you've seen it happening? And please can you back up your accusation with some evidence? I disagree with him regularly and strongly, particularly when he's in his abusive and dismissive mode - surely you're not just using the fact that other people also disagree with him to suggest there's some bullying campaign. I can only imagine you haven't seen his abusive messages to me and others because mods have cleaned them up already.
 
I've accounted for his mental health in most of my posts, particularly when he is coming across misguided and provocative, rather than spiteful and hateful. I think it's healthy for him to hear dissenting views and to be encouraged to challenge his entrenched/guarded perceptions. And it's precisely because of mental health that I thought he was being scummy in that tweet, and thought it needed confronting instead of appeased.

He is targetted by you its the way you operate, you do the same to me, accounted for his mental health dont make me laugh, as for its healthy to hear dissenting voices this would correct if you commented on the content only and not the person, there have been numerous very personal comments made towards him and not just by you  that question his mental state, his right to comment, that are sarcastic, and ridecule him most of the time which in any other area in Rawk i feel would be stopped, you dont agree with his point of view i dont agree with a lot of what he posts.

 However i dont personally attack the guy for posting it, and i will defend his right to post his comments in here so long as they are not abusive (and they are not) , Bullying is probably the wrong word but there is an ethos in here that if you dont conform to the tedious Corbyn is a **** ideology , you have no right to post in here and if you do  it is open season on you for daring to go against the accepted thought management  from the same small crowd who dont want any views voiced in here except the ones they promote.
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline redmark

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The MPs have options they haven't tried, but choose not to and will instead fundamentally campaign to put Corbyn into No 10. They're weak, disorganised and complicit.
MPs have tried to depose Corbyn and failed. Any attempt to do so now, I think, would rally the Corbynistas - it would "prove" that they were behind anti-Semitism smears and "prove" that the criticisms of Labour's Brexit position were to undermine the leader. I think the MPs are waiting, hoping - more or less reasonably - for this to play out and bring him down.

The clearest most obvious way, of course, is if Labour has to accept a fully independent AS review panel - and he's referred to it.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Which bits were fabricated?





They had a long interview with Abbott, didnt use any of it why not? The producer has a long history of malicious accusations against Corbyn and in the past the BBC have been fined for programmes he has put out , so although there is a major problem no doubt about that,  this programme did not look to examine it in a balanced way they looked to Implicate Corbyn as much as possible, that doesnt mean i dont care about the staff members interviewed but were these interviews reflective of all the staff and were they encouraged to make their comments as damaging as possible over egg the pudding style?

We all know how any programme like this can be manipulated to suit the view of the person making it.

 Finally it is the BBC News dept led by the former aid of a Tory minister with an in house total right wing bias.
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline Skeeve

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The Panorama doc was a hatchet job. Real issues exist and require strong, corrective action, but the BBC is better than the fabrication of certain elements of the program that were seen. Corbyn is certainly not the cunning anti-Semite Jew hater some claim him to be.


Certainly not cunning anyway, unless that was meant in the Baldrick sense of the word.  ;D

Offline classycarra

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He is targetted by you its the way you operate, you do the same to me, accounted for his mental health dont make me laugh, as for its healthy to hear dissenting voices this would correct if you commented on the content only and not the person, there have been numerous very personal comments made towards him and not just by you  that question his mental state, his right to comment, that are sarcastic, and ridecule him most of the time which in any other area in Rawk i feel would be stopped, you dont agree with his point of view i dont agree with a lot of what he posts.

 However i dont personally attack the guy for posting it, and i will defend his right to post his comments in here so long as they are not abusive (and they are not) , Bullying is probably the wrong word but there is an ethos in here that if you dont conform to the tedious Corbyn is a **** ideology , you have no right to post in here and if you do  it is open season on you for daring to go against the accepted thought management  from the same small crowd who dont want any views voiced in here except the ones they promote.

The king of personal abuse chimes in..

Geoff there's too much in there that's inaccurate to delve into. But a few things:

I don't target you Geoff. If you post something, especially one of your inaccurate abusive rants, I often respond in disagreement. I don't see that as seeking you out. But maybe if you stopped repeating your tiresome abusive 'storming out the thread' projecting rants (and then immediately returning), you might be confronted on what you say in them less frequently.

You say 'if people don't "conform" they have no right to post in here'. I ask Trada a lot of questions. I actively encourage him to post more, and to share his views. Particularly as the alternative is often just copying and pasting something off social media with no discussion (which is entirely the point of a forum). I ask you a lot of questions too. I think this is just you building the usual us vs them rhetoric that explains away and absolves you of the need to ever reconsider what you've written.

If you defend Trada's right to post comments as long as they are not abusive, then I'd imagine you'd defend mine too if you're consistent. Especially when that saw you defending Trada's apologism for racism a couple of weeks ago. You seem to have a problem with "personal" or "abusive" posts when commenting on how other people post, but absolve yourself (and people like Trada, who are with you in your us vs them constuct) of the same expectations. I don't throw my toys out of the pram when you call me a wanker or a bullshitter or send me PMs calling me an "idiot" ;D If you want things to be less abusive, don't forget that change starts at home. I might needle a little bit when disagreeing with you but I think you'll mostly find you're making up the abusive accusations and you're only complaining about me because I can be critical of your views/posts.

Offline TepidT2O

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They had a long interview with Abbott, didnt use any of it why not? The producer has a long history of malicious accusations against Corbyn and in the past the BBC have been fined for programmes he has put out , so although there is a major problem no doubt about that,  this programme did not look to examine it in a balanced way they looked to Implicate Corbyn as much as possible, that doesnt mean i dont care about the staff members interviewed but were these interviews reflective of all the staff and were they encouraged to make their comments as damaging as possible over egg the pudding style?

We all know how any programme like this can be manipulated to suit the view of the person making it.

 Finally it is the BBC News dept led by the former aid of a Tory minister with an in house total right wing bias.
He claimed bits of the programme were fabricated.

I asked which bits.

Your answer is fine, but has nothing to do with my question.

“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Mutton Geoff

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The king of personal abuse chimes in..

Geoff there's too much in there that's inaccurate to delve into. But a few things:

I don't target you Geoff. If you post something, especially one of your inaccurate abusive rants, I often respond in disagreement. I don't see that as seeking you out. But maybe if you stopped repeating your tiresome abusive 'storming out the thread' projecting rants (and then immediately returning), you might be confronted on what you say in them less frequently.

You say 'if people don't "conform" they have no right to post in here'. I ask Trada a lot of questions. I actively encourage him to post more, and to share his views. Particularly as the alternative is often just copying and pasting something off social media with no discussion (which is entirely the point of a forum). I ask you a lot of questions too. I think this is just you building the usual us vs them rhetoric that explains away and absolves you of the need to ever reconsider what you've written.

If you defend Trada's right to post comments as long as they are not abusive, then I'd imagine you'd defend mine too if you're consistent. Especially when that saw you defending Trada's apologism for racism a couple of weeks ago. You seem to have a problem with "personal" or "abusive" posts when commenting on how other people post, but absolve yourself (and people like Trada, who are with you in your us vs them constuct) of the same expectations. I don't throw my toys out of the pram when you call me a wanker or a bullshitter or send me PMs calling me an "idiot" ;D If you want things to be less abusive, don't forget that change starts at home. I might needle a little bit when disagreeing with you but I think you'll mostly find you're making up the abusive accusations and you're only complaining about me because I can be critical of your views/posts.

I have sent you one PM the cotent of it was stop responding to my posts as it gets boring for everyone else  you seem to b ea bit like the guy in the monty python sketch this is a forum for discussion you always want to make it into a personal argument,  you hardly ever post about the content and you use snide responses such as i defended an apologist for racism . When in actual fact i queried why only one form of racism seemed to matter to poster in here and why?

When you accurately say some things start at home maybe you should begin that process, as for encouraging Trada to post you and others  do that by calling him a bigot, and questioning his mental competance, some encouragement that is.

Anyway as i have told you before dont respond to this because as said it will get boring for the others and diverts from the purpose of this thread whatever that is?

Have a good day!
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline classycarra

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They had a long interview with Abbott, didnt use any of it why not?
You've been sold a lie there, sorry. Abbott tweeted that in 2015, complaining about a different Panorama scrutinising the labour leadership

The producer has a long history of malicious accusations against Corbyn and in the past the BBC have been fined for programmes he has put out , so although there is a major problem no doubt about that,  this programme did not look to examine it in a balanced way

This is the same John Ware who in 2002 Corbyn namechecked in parliament to praise for his vigilant investigative journalism (link here)

So not only does this long and fabled history of Ware and Corbyn being opposed to each other sound about as legitimate as when you said you've "always hated" Tom Watson but posts showed you used to "like him". But it also sounds a little bit like Corbyn's cabal and their supporters are doing the thing you think is a problem on RAWK: "thought management  from the same small crowd who dont want any views voiced in here except the ones they promote"

Offline TepidT2O

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Sadly very close to the bone
https://newsthump.com/2019/07/12/labour-supporters-offer-to-explain-what-anti-semitism-is-to-jewish-people/
Quote
Labour supporters offer to explain what anti-Semitism is to Jewish people
 July 12, 2019
 Written by Neil Tollfree
In an effort to de-escalate the controversy around anti-Semitism, the Labour Party has offered to explain to Jewish people what anti-Semitism actually is.

“Look, we know that Jeremy Corbyn could never, ever be anti-Semitic because he is just so brilliant,” explained Simon Williams, whilst wearing a ‘Jeremy Corbyn is brilliant’ t-shirt.

“So, then it follows that no one in Labour can be anti-Semitic either.

“So, the only explanation for Jewish people thinking Labour is anti-Semitic is that they don’t really understand what anti-Semitism is.

“I mean, that’s just logic.”

Mr Williams went on to describe exactly how Labour would explain the definition of anti-Semitism, so that Jewish people would be able to better understand it.

“Well, we’d start by explaining that anti-Semitism is only when you walk up to a Jewish person and call them a bastard or whatever, and so if you don’t do that then you’re definitely not anti-Semitic.”

He then went on to explain common misconceptions Jewish people have about anti-Semitism.

“Well, I mean, we’d explain that it’s actually not anti-Semitic when we criticise Jewish people for stuff that the Israeli government does, because the Israeli government is so awful.

“Then we’d explain that when you see art that depicts hunched figures with hooked noses, that can’t be anti-Semitic because it’s probably criticising Israel.

“If all that fails, we’d just explain that Jews have it quite easy compared to Palestinians, so anti-Semitism isn’t that big a problem anyway.”

Mr Williams confirmed that no Jewish groups had yet offered to take Labour up on its offer to explain anti-Semitism.

“No, not yet. It’s disappointing, but that’s the Jews for you, they think they know everything.”
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline redmark

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They had a long interview with Abbott, didnt use any of it why not? The producer has a long history of malicious accusations against Corbyn and in the past the BBC have been fined for programmes he has put out , so although there is a major problem no doubt about that,  this programme did not look to examine it in a balanced way they looked to Implicate Corbyn as much as possible, that doesnt mean i dont care about the staff members interviewed but were these interviews reflective of all the staff and were they encouraged to make their comments as damaging as possible over egg the pudding style?

We all know how any programme like this can be manipulated to suit the view of the person making it.

 Finally it is the BBC News dept led by the former aid of a Tory minister with an in house total right wing bias.
Watching the programme, my main response was to cringe at the 'Labour Party response' it referred back to throughout, which repeatedly blamed "disaffected former employees", with "personal and political axes to grind". It read exactly like the response of a big business to any act of whistleblowing. It was horrendous. And then it descended into the borderline maniacal tone of "smears" and "politically motivated" attempts to undermine the Corbynite project. No doubt all coordinated by the Israeli embassy and its plants in the BBC...
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Offline Skeeve

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He is targetted by you its the way you operate, you do the same to me, accounted for his mental health dont make me laugh, as for its healthy to hear dissenting voices this would correct if you commented on the content only and not the person, there have been numerous very personal comments made towards him and not just by you  that question his mental state, his right to comment, that are sarcastic, and ridecule him most of the time which in any other area in Rawk i feel would be stopped, you dont agree with his point of view i dont agree with a lot of what he posts.


At this point, people have long tried to engage with the poster without notable success, since he persists with his non-responsive driveby posting of the latest twitter talking point style then ridicule seems like an appropriate response to such posts and as far as other areas of Rawk, it seems far more likely that the driveby posting might attract the attention of the mods quicker than the reasonable response to them.

Offline So… Howard Philips

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Watching the programme, my main response was to cringe at the 'Labour Party response' it referred back to throughout, which repeatedly blamed "disaffected former employees", with "personal and political axes to grind". It read exactly like the response of a big business to any act of whistleblowing. It was horrendous. And then it descended into the borderline maniacal tone of "smears" and "politically motivated" attempts to undermine the Corbynite project. No doubt all coordinated by the Israeli embassy and its plants in the BBC...

What struck me was the impact the political shenigans at a senior level of the Labour Party had on the confidence and mental health of, primarily, young and relatively inexperienced staff. The same thing is happening to staff in the Lords and Commons.

It's good to see that the Tories are sticking to their principles of naked greed and corruption as this story from the Mirror shows;

" Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson ’s girlfriend left her job as a senior aide at Tory HQ after allegedly being accused of claiming thousands of pounds of unauthorised expenses.

Carrie Symonds, 31, was reportedly asked by party bosses to step down as director of communications amid claims her performance was not up to scratch.

Tory sources say she was also accused of using junior staff members’ names to book cabs for herself and claiming for social events when she was off-duty.

Sir Mick Davis, party chief executive, is said to have tried to remove her from her £80,000-a-year role but was rebuffed after protests by her friends in the party."

Offline ShakaHislop

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MPs have tried to depose Corbyn and failed. Any attempt to do so now, I think, would rally the Corbynistas - it would "prove" that they were behind anti-Semitism smears and "prove" that the criticisms of Labour's Brexit position were to undermine the leader. I think the MPs are waiting, hoping - more or less reasonably - for this to play out and bring him down.

The clearest most obvious way, of course, is if Labour has to accept a fully independent AS review panel - and he's referred to it.

I wasn't referring to another leadership challenge, but them leaving to set up a new Independent Labour Party.

Judging from Formby's most recent letter to Watson, I think the chances of Labour voluntarily agreeing to an independent complaints process are slim. Even if the EHRC finds Labour to be institutionally anti-semitic and has the power to force an independent process on Labour, I don't see how that leads to Corbyn going. Labour will just continue with the "it's only a minority of members/antisemitism exists in wider society" lines.

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https://t.co/3JWzHMjNfr

Focussing on the real issues

Offline classycarra

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Judging from Formby's most recent letter to Watson, I think the chances of Labour voluntarily agreeing to an independent complaints process are slim. Even if the EHRC finds Labour to be institutionally anti-semitic and has the power to force an independent process on Labour, I don't see how that leads to Corbyn going. Labour will just continue with the "it's only a minority of members/antisemitism exists in wider society" lines.

After seeing Formby's letter to mobilise the spite against Tom Watson, I am waiting to hear Bastani call her "low" for bringing up chemotherapy. I might have to wait a while, I'm not sure his insrtuctions from HQ will want him to be consistent in his smearing

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https://t.co/3JWzHMjNfr

Focussing on the real issues

Self awareness is not a strength of the corbynistas

Quote
Momentum said the drive was influenced by the ongoing Tory leadership race, which it called a “broken political system dominated by posh men from expensive private schools”.

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He has taken a particular interest in investigating Islamic extremism.

2005, A Panorama edition Ware produced criticising the Muslim Council of Britain, A Question of Leadership, was described by them as "deeply unfair" and "a witch hunt".[2]
2006, Responding to complaints about another Panorama edition, Faith, Hate and Charity produced by Ware, the Charity Commission in 2009[9] dismissed its allegations that British based Palestinian relief charity Interpal was funding organisations involved in terrorism.[10] The Muslim Council of Britain described Ware as "an agenda-driven pro-Israel polemicist".[11] The programme resulted in the BBC paying undisclosed libel damages and giving a public apology to the General Manager of Islamic Relief UK, who was prominently shown while not being a subject of the programme.[12]
2010, Another Panorama edition by Ware, British schools, Islamic Rules on some Islamic teaching in Britain, was criticised by the Muslim Council of Britain as a partial and unbalanced portrayal.[13]

2015, A Panorama edition by Ware on the campaign of Jeremy Corbyn to be elected as Labour Party leader, Labour's Earthquake, attracted hundreds of complaints, including from Corbyn's campaign team, and was described by a member of Corbyn's campaign team as "containing factual inaccuracies" and "a complete hatchet job".[16]

2019, An extended Panorama edition, entitled Is Labour Anti-Semitic, was described by Labour as containing "deliberate and malicious representations designed to mislead" and the party alleged that "Panorama has pre-determined the outcome of its investigation and is relying on unsubstantiated allegations and misrepresentation to come to its conclusions." and that "No proper attempt has been made by Panorama to understand Labour’s current processes and procedures".[17]

This is just from wiki however he was broadcast journalist of the year in 2001 he also worked for the Sun , Sunday and Daily Telegraph, the Guardian, the Jewish Chronicle and the Standpoint magazine.

It is fairly obvious that there is a major problem in the Labour party as there certainly is in the Tory party, and if somebody other than a man known to despise Corbyn made it, it would have been better in my opinion because it takes away the fact that this guy probably set out to deliver the programme you saw from the very start.
Just to add another voice to this matter
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/is-the-bbc-impartial-on-jeremy-corbyn/

The problem needs sorting out rapidly, but personally i dont think this programme has helped that taking place at all.
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I wasn't referring to another leadership challenge, but them leaving to set up a new Independent Labour Party.

Judging from Formby's most recent letter to Watson, I think the chances of Labour voluntarily agreeing to an independent complaints process are slim. Even if the EHRC finds Labour to be institutionally anti-semitic and has the power to force an independent process on Labour, I don't see how that leads to Corbyn going. Labour will just continue with the "it's only a minority of members/antisemitism exists in wider society" lines.

Failure of Change has pretty much killed any inclination to try and start afresh for the moment. Of course, part of that failure (by no means all) was Watson successfully persuading a lot that there was another way through while staying within Labour. As we're seeing, Watson just becomes the whipping boy when Corbyn's allies can't defend something and need to divert attention.

Formby's letter was a mess but it's where Labour are at. EHRC submission part actually made me laugh. "The NEC refuse to see what the NEC should be seeing and refuse to let you see it too. Not my fault. Soz. #JC9."

-----

Marina Hyde and Ian Dunt are writing the history of all this. Dunt's weekly review. (As ever no link yet - e-mail sign-up thing released later on politics.co.uk)

Quote
Really monstrous week, this one. Even by the usual standards, which are very poor indeed, it was acutely bad. There came a point, around Thursday morning, when whichever way you looked you found behaviour which was so abysmal, so lacking in anything like basic moral or patriotic decency, that your instinct was to try and switch the country off-and-on again, in some desperate hope that we might reset to a better place. But there is no switch. There's no escape. We're stuck here. And only really serious drinking or maybe political activism is going to change it.

It began, of course, with that diplomatic leak, detailing the entirely reasonable assessments from British ambassador Kim Darroch of Trump's White House. It went straight to Brexit-campaigning journalist Isabel Oakeshott, was then used to as a self-promotion campaign by Nigel Frottage, and led to an outburst of the usual emotional inadequacy from the US president. So far, so normal. Everyone acting as they usually do. Britain, which offered Trump the full state honours a few weeks back, now blocked from any diplomatic contact with its supposed ally.

And then it came to Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. He was the new element. After all, he'll likely be prime minister before the end of the month. He was repeatedly asked if he would stand by the ambassador. And after a bit of babble praising Trump it was quite clear he would not. Darroch watched that performance and then handed in his resignation. He couldn't do the job without political support from Downing Street.

The American president had as good as fired the British ambassador. Johnson's campaign chair in Scotland, Ross Thompson, basically admitted it. "The game was up when the president of the United States himself, rightly or wrongly, said he could no longer work with the British ambassador," he said. "That's when that then undermines the national interest of having a relationship with the US."

If you watch the video closely, you can see his face stretch and strain as he says the words, as if some inner part of his personality, some last bastion of personal conscience, is fighting against the obscenities coming out of his mouth. But the resistance falters. Out the words come.

The executive summary is that Britain is no longer independently appointing its own ambassadorial staff. Will this apply to all countries? No, of course not. It will apply to the United States, a country we have been in a subservient position to since the end of the war and who we are now to be utterly controlled by. It is a grim foreshadowing of what will come if Brexit succeeds.

The natural human instinct is to ask what can be done? Who can stop Johnson from turning the country into a vassal state? What can the opposition do to try and protect the core constitutional functions of Britain against the deranged form of Tory Trotskyism which has overtaken the governing party?

But things are, if anything, even worse over there. To observe Labour this week was to feel as if you had somehow dirtied yourself, like you'd stain your clothes just by reading about them. After you'd finished an article you'd stare down and be amazed by the fact you were still actually physically clean.

On Wednesday evening, Panorama broadcast an account of the party's anti-semitism problem. It showed several young party officials, distressed, haunted, traumatised, driven to depression and even suicidal thoughts. It showed a party high command which auto-defined anyone questioning their behaviour as a factional enemy - "Blairites", obviously, because that apparently is the worst thing in the world. It showed a party where anti-semitism had begun to run rampant.

The leadership singularly failed to put in place an effective disciplinary system for these issues, either because it did not understand them, or because it didn't care enough, or because some of the stain of those sentiments exists there as well. Pick one of those options. It has to be one of them.

The response of Labour, with grim inevitability, was to attack the programme before it had even aired, then paint the people speaking out as figures with axes to grind. It wouldn't put up anyone to actually answer the charges from the party, so instead the airwaves were full of its so-called 'media outriders', journalists whose views happen to coincide with whatever is most useful for the party high command. The most godawful sight.

It is like gazing into a black hole. There's no point looking for light in it. It's just straight-up darkness and a sense of collapse so strong that even gravity can't escape.

The leadership claimed it was doing something about it, but you could see the lie even as it was uttered. Every effort it made was to cover it up, hide the stories, conceal the evidence, and impune the reputations of those who dared to talk about it. This is why the problem exists and why it grows. Because Corbyn's Labour considers everyone who criticises it - whether a voter, a journalist, a member, or an official - to be an enemy by definition. There can be no legitimate criticism, so none of the criticism is ever treated as legitimate.

Even when you're used to bad weeks in politics, this really was a new kind of low. It's an arms race in reverse. Neither government nor opposition functions, so both parties have felt free to get completely lost in their own terrible derangement. If Labour was even vaguely competent, a Tory leadership would be wary of becoming fully-owned by a foreign power. If the Tories weren't dismantling the country, Labour might feel more compelled to sort itself out.

It's like the British constitution turned in on itself: a system of checks and balances obliterated in a mutual suicide pact.

Get a drink. Get several. If you've read even one news story this week, you thoroughly deserve it.

Think the point on the balance being broken is right. There's no pressure for either party to tack differently right now. Think it will fall on the voters to try and sort this out.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 12:14:12 pm by Zeb »
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Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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After seeing Formby's letter to mobilise the spite against Tom Watson, I am waiting to hear Bastani call her "low" for bringing up chemotherapy. I might have to wait a while, I'm not sure his insrtuctions from HQ will want him to be consistent in his smearing
didn’t jezza sack a shadow minister when she was going through cancer treatment?

Offline classycarra

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Offline redmark

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I wasn't referring to another leadership challenge, but them leaving to set up a new Independent Labour Party.
Why should they? Why should I, for that matter? I've seen people like Jess Phillips make the point directly - she's been a member of the Labour Party all her adult life - certainly longer than most Corbynistas. It's not simply a 'brand' to run for election under; the party has staff and an apparatus - and longstanding relationships with other organisations within the party. We've already seen with the Change MPs that you can't simply setup a new party and hit the ground running.

The Corbyn 'project' is a takeover of the party, albeit the leading public figures have been (obscure/marginal) members themselves for decades: their advisors, backers and mass support have not. It's extreme and - in the eyes of most MPs, clearly - premature to abandon to the entryists just now. If there's one thing the harder left have always managed, it's to fall out over tactics, split, get bored of entryism and/or fronts and retreat back to a purer 'core'. There's no reason to think that won't happen again; and a number of signs that that moment may not be too far away.


Judging from Formby's most recent letter to Watson, I think the chances of Labour voluntarily agreeing to an independent complaints process are slim. Even if the EHRC finds Labour to be institutionally anti-semitic and has the power to force an independent process on Labour, I don't see how that leads to Corbyn going. Labour will just continue with the "it's only a minority of members/antisemitism exists in wider society" lines.

I agree, it's unlikely to be voluntary, unless forced by intense public pressure and accepted by some senior 'Corbynites' who have already drifted from the leadership on Brexit.

How would it get rid of Corbyn? Refer him to the process as a suspected anti-semite and get him expelled from the party (chance of it happening? Possible, at least to force him to clearly denounce certain of his own actions and statements to a point I think he can't contemplate). He can't lead a party he's no longer a member of.

Ultimately I think the bulk of Labour MPs are pinning their hopes on the combined forces of Brexit and anti-semitism pressure to bring him down. Or ill health (or worse). He's no spring chicken.

What happens next, of course, is another matter. Someone like McDonnell (or Starmer, etc.) could probably step back and work with the bulk of the PLP. Someone like Burgon or Long-Bailey probably spells the death of the party as a serious political force.
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Offline classycarra

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https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/is-the-bbc-impartial-on-jeremy-corbyn/

The problem needs sorting out rapidly, but personally i dont think this programme has helped that taking place at all.

It's interesting and amusing that a comment piece from them points out impartiality as a problem, without discussing their own problems with being partial (links between Corbyn MCB JVL STWC etc)

It's also interesting that in that in that comment piece the Corbyn supporters conflate Ware's criticism of Corbyn and the MCB, an organisation with its own anti semitism and bigotry problems.

So this "long history" of Ware being critical and biased against Corbyn dates back to 2015, and is essentially about one panorama episode he put together?

Seems like a monumental overreaction as ever from Corbyn fans, who don't like journalists that dont kiss the ring.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Watching the programme, my main response was to cringe at the 'Labour Party response' it referred back to throughout, which repeatedly blamed "disaffected former employees", with "personal and political axes to grind". It read exactly like the response of a big business to any act of whistleblowing. It was horrendous. And then it descended into the borderline maniacal tone of "smears" and "politically motivated" attempts to undermine the Corbynite project. No doubt all coordinated by the Israeli embassy and its plants in the BBC...
That was pretty-much my take too.
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He is targetted by you its the way you operate, you do the same to me, accounted for his mental health dont make me laugh, as for its healthy to hear dissenting voices this would correct if you commented on the content only and not the person, there have been numerous very personal comments made towards him and not just by you  that question his mental state, his right to comment, that are sarcastic, and ridecule him most of the time which in any other area in Rawk i feel would be stopped, you dont agree with his point of view i dont agree with a lot of what he posts.

 However i dont personally attack the guy for posting it, and i will defend his right to post his comments in here so long as they are not abusive (and they are not) , Bullying is probably the wrong word but there is an ethos in here that if you dont conform to the tedious Corbyn is a **** ideology , you have no right to post in here and if you do  it is open season on you for daring to go against the accepted thought management  from the same small crowd who dont want any views voiced in here except the ones they promote.

Nah I don't think that at all.

For people that stand up for any view, broadly speaking, their points are debated and discussed.

I have been on forums where there is a lot of disrespect, name calling, bullying and shithousery going on, but I wouldn't label RAWK with that.

Yeah, it's not perfect at times,  but given the sheer number of people that frequent it, I think it's actually amazingly serene and respectful most of the time.

I used to get annoyed when I talked shite and people pointed out that I was talking shite. But as you get older, you actually appreciate people being honest with you and if it makes you think a bit more before engaging keyboard then all the better (Although when I'm pissed I don't always manage that!) :D
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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I have sent you one PM the cotent of it was stop responding to my posts as it gets boring for everyone else  you seem to b ea bit like the guy in the monty python sketch this is a forum for discussion you always want to make it into a personal argument,  you hardly ever post about the content and you use snide responses such as i defended an apologist for racism . When in actual fact i queried why only one form of racism seemed to matter to poster in here and why?

When you accurately say some things start at home maybe you should begin that process, as for encouraging Trada to post you and others  do that by calling him a bigot, and questioning his mental competance, some encouragement that is.

Anyway as i have told you before dont respond to this because as said it will get boring for the others and diverts from the purpose of this thread whatever that is?

Have a good day!

I see the purpose of this thread as mocking and discussing politicians (Wherever they may blow!) that seemingly have gained the accomplishment of being the biggest shower of wankers to ever hold the title.

When you read the political news, it's like every day has been scripted by the lad doing 'The Thick of it' after he's come back in after a 20 pint bender.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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I see the purpose of this thread as mocking and discussing politicians (Wherever they may blow!) that seemingly have gained the accomplishment of being the biggest shower of wankers to ever hold the title.

When you read the political news, it's like every day has been scripted by the lad doing 'The Thick of it' after he's come back in after a 20 pint bender.

I am all for mocking and discussing politicians  from all parties in today's climate, the problem as i see it is only one politician is the focus of the majority in this thread and in fact all the ones before it since he was elected the leader of his party. So perhaps it isnt as balanced  as you wished when you set it up.

I fully agree with your reasons for starting it though.
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Why should they? Why should I, for that matter? I've seen people like Jess Phillips make the point directly - she's been a member of the Labour Party all her adult life - certainly longer than most Corbynistas. It's not simply a 'brand' to run for election under; the party has staff and an apparatus - and longstanding relationships with other organisations within the party. We've already seen with the Change MPs that you can't simply setup a new party and hit the ground running.

The Corbyn 'project' is a takeover of the party, albeit the leading public figures have been (obscure/marginal) members themselves for decades: their advisors, backers and mass support have not. It's extreme and - in the eyes of most MPs, clearly - premature to abandon to the entryists just now. If there's one thing the harder left have always managed, it's to fall out over tactics, split, get bored of entryism and/or fronts and retreat back to a purer 'core'. There's no reason to think that won't happen again; and a number of signs that that moment may not be too far away.


I agree, it's unlikely to be voluntary, unless forced by intense public pressure and accepted by some senior 'Corbynites' who have already drifted from the leadership on Brexit.

How would it get rid of Corbyn? Refer him to the process as a suspected anti-semite and get him expelled from the party (chance of it happening? Possible, at least to force him to clearly denounce certain of his own actions and statements to a point I think he can't contemplate). He can't lead a party he's no longer a member of.

Ultimately I think the bulk of Labour MPs are pinning their hopes on the combined forces of Brexit and anti-semitism pressure to bring him down. Or ill health (or worse). He's no spring chicken.

What happens next, of course, is another matter. Someone like McDonnell (or Starmer, etc.) could probably step back and work with the bulk of the PLP. Someone like Burgon or Long-Bailey probably spells the death of the party as a serious political force.

Because, to be blunt, I think it's self-indulgent to use "I was here first" as an excuse for not providing the country with the competent opposition it desperately needs. A better way of proving that you're better than the Corbynistas would be to show pragmatism, leave the carcass of what was once a good party to them to play with and build something better.

I don't see how leaving now could be called "premature" Corbyn has had control of the party for 4 years, has already overseen a general election loss and we're now hurtling at speed towards a no-deal Brexit that people were dismissing as a unlikely scenario not so long ago. Are Labour MPs prepared to let the country go through that as part of their "wait and see" strategy?

I don't think comparing Change UK to a Labour split that involves hundreds of MPs, including some highly respected ones like Cooper is a fair comparison. A new party with a proud Labour identity, a clear centre-left ideology and potential leaders who are seen as viable Prime Ministers-in-waiting is different from a Change UK that had no real heritage to point to, a fuzzy "centrist" ideology and barely enough MPs to field a football team. Hopefully such a new Labour party would be able to tempt some of the unions over, and also have former Labour Party staffers from previous eras willing to answer a call for help. Even try and tempt David Miliband back for a bit of publicity (as well as his ministerial experience)