Topic: General Political discussion with kesey-style vibes & tantric breathing stuff...

[Lush is the best medicine...]

So oakeshott suing John crace for implying she was sleeping with Frottage and Banks, when it turns out the Sunday times are saying it’s richard tice

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1150147488814456832?s=21

[bigbonedrawky]

This is so fucked up.

People are being attacked for wanting to stop racism.

Jackie Walker and Mark Wadsworth want to stop racism too.

[TepidT2O]

Jackie Walker and Mark Wadsworth want to stop racism too.

Just not things they don’t consider racism.

[bigbonedrawky]

Just not things they don’t consider racism.

They've see it more than most though.

[oldfordie]

It's always a useful reminder of people's capacity to learn when they're faced with court action. Heard it won't just be the party. Some of the reaction this weekend from what passes for a 'movement' has crossed a few lines and things are being explored as Rachel Riley and Tracy Ann Oberman ended up being forced to do.

Just the same old standard answer to dismiss complaints. Ohh just tell them it's a disgruntled ex Labour member of staff with a axe to grind. I think they probably crapped themselves when news of the defamation came tonight.  it's not just this either, the EHRC are going to pass judgement on this and I think it will be damning.

[Robinred]

Pidcock is just another in a long line of people with zero life experience who become career politicians,lost her seat so gets given a safe one just because she worships Jezza.

Yup, the nepotism is self evident, and the criteria for promotion if you’re not related is starkly, and equally obvious. Long-Bailey is McDonnell’s acolyte, Burgon is Corbyn’s. What they (and too many others) have in common is promotion way above their capabilities. The levels of mediocrity are off the scale. Then consider that neither Denis Healey nor Robin Cooke (et al) never achieved the leader’s role...as Gerry Attrick said, the state of British politics.

[TepidT2O]

They've see it more than most though.

And they’re happy to ignore antisemitism and even promulgate it.

And that’s the problem in a nutshell. The Marxists don’t see what is happening as racism. That’s why it’s being almost totally ignored.

They are telling the Jewish population what isn’t antisemitic.  Which is frankly bonkers.

[Alan_X]

They've see it more than most though.

What on earth does that mean? Are you saying Jews haven't suffered racism as much as mark Wadsworth and Jackie Walker? Fuck me.

[TepidT2O]

What on earth does that mean? Are you saying Jews haven't suffered racism as much as mark Wadsworth and Jackie Walker? Fuck me.

I do get a sense that somehow there is an air of ‘this antisemitism isn’t that bad a type racism’ even when it’s conserved to be racist.



(Not referring to bigboneds comment here btw)

[Zeb]

Just the same old standard they've gotten away with in the past. Ohh just tell them it's a disgruntled ex Labour member of staff with a axe to grind. I think they probably crapped themselves when news of the defamation came tonight.  it's not just this either, the EHRC are going to pass judgement on this and I think it will be damning.

Thing with the EHRC is it's maybe a year or two away from being done. Suspicion would be that the party attempt to bury it when it comes out, hoping they're in government at the time to thumb their noses at it.

One of the staff members is currently at a friend's house after death threats. The whole The Lobby conspiracy bollocks has blown up again with people being accused of all sorts on the back of it. With Labour being broken and unwilling to provide leadership, in fact stoking things further against those complaining, not sure what other options are open. Corbyn's office have decided to appoint someone to work a day a week to 'rebuild relationships with the Jewish community' - he went with someone from JVL whose spent the past few years denying there's any problem whatsoever. Think people are going to take avenues which work now over trying to dick around accommodating the dysfunction in Labour.

[TepidT2O]

It’s important to note that some Jewish people don’t think there’s an issue.

However, when over 85% do, it’s probably better to pick the person to rebuild relationships from the 85% who think there’s a problem not the 15% who don’t.

[ShakaHislop]

So oakeshott suing John crace for implying she was sleeping with Frottage and Banks, when it turns out the Sunday times are saying it’s richard tice

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1150147488814456832?s=21

She no longer has a proper job for a newspaper, does she?

[Lush is the best medicine...]

She no longer has a proper job for a newspaper, does she?

well she did that bit for the mail last week, think she’s one of those talking heads that bbc/sky wheel out nowadays who can help get decent ratings/social media buzz

[Sammy5IsAlive]

You claimed he said she was a racist. He didn't.

He said she supports racism. The evidence is pretty strong that the Labour Party under Corbyn is institutionally anti-semitic. That doesn't mean that everyone in the party is individually anti-semitic but if you're denying there's a problem, attacking whistle blowers and supporting racists you're part of the problem.

As far as I'm concerned Tepid's justification for his original post is very much in the Urquhart mould of "that's what they believe - I couldn't possibly comment".

I agree with your point about being part of the problem. My point of view is that there is a big difference between that and somebody being a disgusting racist.   

[classycarra]

Jackie Walker and Mark Wadsworth want to stop racism too.

You’re mistaking vacuous words with intent. They’re both evidentially bigots

[ShakaHislop]

well she did that bit for the mail last week, think she’s one of those talking heads that bbc/sky wheel out nowadays who can help get decent ratings/social media buzz

That's what I've always primarily known her for. She was on the Daily Politics often when fellow Brexiteer, and May communications chief Robbie Gibb ran the show.

[oldfordie]

Thing with the EHRC is it's maybe a year or two away from being done. Suspicion would be that the party attempt to bury it when it comes out, hoping they're in government at the time to thumb their noses at it.

One of the staff members is currently at a friend's house after death threats. The whole The Lobby conspiracy bollocks has blown up again with people being accused of all sorts on the back of it. With Labour being broken and unwilling to provide leadership, in fact stoking things further against those complaining, not sure what other options are open. Corbyn's office have decided to appoint someone to work a day a week to 'rebuild relationships with the Jewish community' - he went with someone from JVL whose spent the past few years denying there's any problem whatsoever. Think people are going to take avenues which work now over trying to dick around accommodating the dysfunction in Labour.

I don't know if it's true but ive read they could release their findings by January 2020. am sure they will tell them what to do to clean up their act.
Death threats. shocking,  the  days of going through the motions of appearing to have Zero tolerance are nearly over. they have to reply to the people suing them for defamation.  they may even make the situation worse. do that and the cases will go all the way to court.

[TepidT2O]

As far as I'm concerned Tepid's justification for his original post is very much in the Urquhart mould of "that's what they believe - I couldn't possibly comment".

I agree with your point about being part of the problem. My point of view is that there is a big difference between that and somebody being a disgusting racist.   

I chose my words carefully. I don’t know if she’s a racist, but she’s absolutely allowing it to happen.

[Alan_X]

As far as I'm concerned Tepid's justification for his original post is very much in the Urquhart mould of "that's what they believe - I couldn't possibly comment".

I agree with your point about being part of the problem. My point of view is that there is a big difference between that and somebody being a disgusting racist.   

There's a difference. It's not a big difference. Especially as we're now 2 years on from Chakrabarti's report on anti-semitism and little has changed. There were stands for Labour against the Witch Hunt at the Gala and in Pidcock's speech she made the same old vacuous suggestion that Corbyn can't be anti-semitic because he's Jeremy Corbyn.

If you're the Leader and de-facto Deputy Leader of an organisation that is institutionally racist and you;re defending organisation then what are you if not racist?

They wouldn't treat any other minority group the way they treat Jews. They clearly feel able to reject the accusations because deep down they believe the stereotypes about Jews.

Corbyn couldn't see the problem with this mural because it's part of his political world view:



Corbyn may not be 'disgustingly' racist as you put it. He doesn't 'hate' Jews, he just unthinkingly accepts the centuries old tropes about Jewish bankers and secret cabals of Jews.

[Mutton Geoff]

Yep. It is a formal split to which I meant to refer. It has been in the works for a few years now, but it now seems inevitable.

it’s not going to happen with all the career politicians these days :

[filopastry]

She no longer has a proper job for a newspaper, does she?

She has been a lobbyist for Ashcroft and friends rather than a proper journalist for a fair while now, although that seems common enough in UK journalism these days

[Zeb]

I don't know if it's true but ive read they could release their findings by January 2020. am sure they will tell them what to do to clean up their act.
Death threats. shocking,  the  days of going through the motions of appearing to have Zero tolerance are nearly over. they have to reply to the people suing them for defamation.  they may even make the situation worse. do that and the cases will go all the way to court.

I don't know for sure either about time. I asked when it was announced and was told 18 months to 2 years based on amount of evidence handed in/ready to be handed in at that time and the investigation needed, although yardstick being used was the only other inquiry of similar scope which was obviously the Met (that was 2 years, I think).

Not sure anything fixes Labour for a whiles yet. While everything is some kind of plot to pull Corbyn down then any pushback reinforces that view of the world, doesn't it? Corbyn goes and, say, McDonnell comes in and the only thing which changes is that he's smart enough not to run a fire and brimstone media strategy in reply to complaints.

[oldfordie]

There's a difference. It's not a big difference. Especially as we're now 2 years on from Chakrabarti's report on anti-semitism and little has changed. There were stands for Labour against the Witch Hunt at the Gala and in Pidcock's speech she made the same old vacuous suggestion that Corbyn can't be anti-semitic because he's Jeremy Corbyn.

If you're the Leader and de-facto Deputy Leader of an organisation that is institutionally racist and you;re defending organisation then what are you if not racist?

They wouldn't treat any other minority group the way they treat Jews. They clearly feel able to reject the accusations because deep down they believe the stereotypes about Jews.

Corbyn couldn't see the problem with this mural because it's part of his political world view:



Corbyn may not be 'disgustingly' racist as you put it. He doesn't 'hate' Jews, he just unthinkingly accepts the centuries old tropes about Jewish bankers and secret cabals of Jews.

One of the people on Panorama the other night said something very revealing about Corbyn.
He was going to speak on the same platform alongside one of the most antisemitic speakers in the world, he was told this man is a Jew hater whose speeches are very antisemitic. Corbyns response was "Well he's never said any thing like that to me" and he just walked on stage.
Can you imagine someone who has fought racism against blacks reacting like that if someone warned him about one of the speakers being a racist in the KKK, his reaction wouldn't be well he's never said anything like that to me and walk on stage. he would be outraged .he wouldn't want anything to do with him.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

One of the people on Panorama the other night said something very revealing about Corbyn.
He was going to speak on the same platform as one of the most antisemitic speakers in the world, he was told this man is a Jew hater whose speeches are very antisemitic. Corbyns response was "Well he's never said any thing like that to me" and he just walked on stage.
Can you imagine someone who has fought racism against blacks reacting like that is someone warned him about one of the speakers being a racist in the KKK, his reaction wouldn't be well he's never said anything like that to me and walk on stage. he would be outraged .he wouldn't want anything to do with him.

He also went into bat for that hate preacher who was banned from entry,he even went so far as to formally invite him to the HOC.

Corbyn is a lazy,talentless rich boy who hasn't grown up.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

There's a difference. It's not a big difference. Especially as we're now 2 years on from Chakrabarti's report on anti-semitism and little has changed. There were stands for Labour against the Witch Hunt at the Gala and in Pidcock's speech she made the same old vacuous suggestion that Corbyn can't be anti-semitic because he's Jeremy Corbyn.

If you're the Leader and de-facto Deputy Leader of an organisation that is institutionally racist and you;re defending organisation then what are you if not racist?

They wouldn't treat any other minority group the way they treat Jews. They clearly feel able to reject the accusations because deep down they believe the stereotypes about Jews.

Corbyn couldn't see the problem with this mural because it's part of his political world view:



Corbyn may not be 'disgustingly' racist as you put it. He doesn't 'hate' Jews, he just unthinkingly accepts the centuries old tropes about Jewish bankers and secret cabals of Jews.

The thread has been locked once already recently so I'm going to make one more post then bow out.

It wasn't me that was bringing up the terms disgust/racism. Nor was I talking about Corbyn - my point was about Pidcock.

There is plenty of entirely legitimate criticism on this thread towards the Corbyn 'cult' who see everything through the prism of their support for him. My original criticism was that at times this thread drifts into the same territory but from the opposite side of the argument. The fact that I am sympathetic to that argument doesn't make it any less frustrating to see the frequent departures from critical thought.

[oldfordie]

I don't know for sure either about time. I asked when it was announced and was told 18 months to 2 years based on amount of evidence handed in/ready to be handed in at that time and the investigation needed, although yardstick being used was the only other inquiry of similar scope which was obviously the Met (that was 2 years, I think).

Not sure anything fixes Labour for a whiles yet. While everything is some kind of plot to pull Corbyn down then any pushback reinforces that view of the world, doesn't it? Corbyn goes and, say, McDonnell comes in and the only thing which changes is that he's smart enough not to run a fire and brimstone media strategy in reply to complaints.

Corny quote but true in this case. your not part of the solution,your part of the problem. it comes with the territory. one of the whistle blowers isn't sure of Corbyn himself could pass a disciplinary hearing if he faced scrutiny. as you say once people argue Corbyn has to go if we want to clean up Labour, his supporters will argue your only using A/S as a weapon to get him out.
I think this has to run it's full course now, let Corbyn fight the next GE, it's probably better for remain as well. they deserve to be punished badly. ive given up on them as they are now.

[oldfordie]

He also went into bat for that hate preacher who was banned from entry,he even went so far as to formally invite him to the HOC.

Corbyn is a lazy,talentless rich boy who hasn't grown up.

It's his style. he also invited people who were known to be in the IRA to the HOC weeks after they blew up Tory MPs in a hotel in Brighton. yet he's someone who fights passionately for peace. fights passionately against racism.

[Mutton Geoff]

Last time I looked Watson was the democratically elected Deputy Leader - you really are a prick

any need for the abuse Corbyn was democratically elected leader twice but that doesn't stop people in here suggesting alternatives and tearing him a new arsehole on a daily basis, are they also pricks in your opinion?

[Jiminy Cricket]

any need for the abuse Corbyn was democratically elected leader twice but that doesn't stop people in here suggesting alternatives and tearing him a new arsehole on a daily basis, are they also pricks in your opinion?

Of course Corbyn was elected leader. But who asked for Corbyn to be 'sacked'? That he should be voted out - yes. That he should have resigned after the PLP vote of no confidence - yes*. That he should resign now - yes. That he should be 'sacked' - no. However, from your guy at RAWK:

Len is totally spot on about Watson the sooner he's sacked the better this is about Jennie and her fight against cancer and Watson using it against her.

This is an interesting video hopefully it the kind of things Labour will present against Panorama.

https://twitter.com/NAJ562/status/1150087179965739008

Please explain how 'Corbyn being the democratically elected leader' should protect him from being called a c*nt? WTF has one thing to do with the other? Corbyn is, at best, an enabler of antisemitism. But, really, any significant doubt is now gone - he's fully on board antisemitism. It just gets worse - Corbyn's actions and position are indefensible.

* I still do not understand how Corbyn was able to continue after the vote of no confidence from the PLP. The man is bereft of principle and incapable of experiencing shame. He's a fucking moron to boot. So, yeah, he can do one, and the sooner the better.

[Alan_X]

* I still do not understand how Corbyn was able to continue after the vote of no confidence from the PLP. The man is bereft of principle and incapable of experiencing shame. He's a fucking moron to boot. So, yeah, he can do one, and the sooner the better.

Because he's someone for whom party democracy and rules are something to be manipulated* and his handler {Milne) is an utter c*nt.

*And if you want to see the evidence then as ever with Corbyn, the principal witness against is Corbyn himself.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/0QFUJhQHdwQ?t=458?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/0QFUJhQHdwQ?t=458?fs=1</a>
7:36 in. It's never been about democratically representing the views of Labour voters for Corbyn et al, it's about packing committees and taking over the organisation to pursue their own narrow agenda.

[Circa1892]

Police called round due to death threats to one of the whistleblowers.

I honestly don’t see the point for most members and MPs anymore. IF the party ever recovers from this nonsense and the likes of Corbyn, McCluskey etc are banished - I don’t think I could ever be convinced to vote for them again (which in itself is devastating). Genuinely don’t think the party can recover.

[Mutton Geoff]

Of course Corbyn was elected leader. But who asked for Corbyn to be 'sacked'? That he should be voted out - yes. That he should have resigned after the PLP vote of no confidence - yes*. That he should resign now - yes. That he should be 'sacked' - no. However, from your guy at RAWK:Please explain how 'Corbyn being the democratically elected leader' should protect him from being called a c*nt? WTF has one thing to do with the other? Corbyn is, at best, an enabler of antisemitism. But, really, any significant doubt is now gone - he's fully on board antisemitism. It just gets worse - Corbyn's actions and position are indefensible.

* I still do not understand how Corbyn was able to continue after the vote of no confidence from the PLP. The man is bereft of principle and incapable of experiencing shame. He's a fucking moron to boot. So, yeah, he can do one, and the sooner the better.

you make my point very well, its not about personalities it’s about principles and hypocrisy the poster called dave a prick because he was suggesting the democratically elected Watson should be removed, i replied with an example of others in this thread who have suggested that another twice democratically elected Corbyn should be removed daily and asked that poster if they are pricks as well!
Or is it dependent on which side of the fence your are on , hence the hypocrisy element !
just to reply to your other comment thankfully the PLP do not have the power to remove a leader on their own so the vote of no confidence was in the end a meaningless gesture , at that time they had a choice work within the party to help to unite it , work within the party and in the shadow cabinet to help a group of people unused to a power status or if they felt so strongly leave and set up a new party of whatever complexion they wanted, they chose none of those options and went for an ultimately futile vote of no confidence!
One more point given Corbyn in here is often labelled as thick etc how the hell did he win two elections to be leader are the rest of them even more stupid than you claim he is ? Why is there not one who can inspire the membership that they are the better option !

[Jiminy Cricket]

Because he's someone for whom party democracy and rules are something to be manipulated* and his handler {Milne) is an utter c*nt.

*And if you want to see the evidence then as ever with Corbyn, the principal witness against is Corbyn himself.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/0QFUJhQHdwQ?t=458?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/0QFUJhQHdwQ?t=458?fs=1</a>
7:36 in. It's never been about democratically representing the views of Labour voters for Corbyn et al, it's about packing committees and taking over the organisation to pursue their own narrow agenda.

Thanks for the clip.

I am not sure why Roy Hattersley thought Tony Benn was unscrupulous, and though I had some faint realisation that the new Tory government was not a good thing, I was too young in '79 and the proceeding few years to take much notice of what was happening in politics.

Too many people in the Labour Party are forelock tugging idiots. I actually quite licked Tony Benn (another toff, of course), but why would anyone desire him as leader of The Labour Party? Now, the left of the Party has its left-wing leader in Corbyn (of which I have no problem with in principle), but Corbyn is no Benn. Benn, for all his faults (although a student of history, he often failed to grasp its lessons), he had charisma, was intellectually curious, and was genuine (I think). But Corbyn!? He possesses all (and more) of Benn's faults and baggage (being a toff), but none of Benn's positives. There is not a single positive I can ascribe to Corbyn. He will do anything, and all for personal reasons and gain.

[Mutton Geoff]

the last bit of your post JC i find interesting maybe i am a cynic but i believe all leaders make decisions that benefit themselves, The Witch Thatcher wanted to mould society in her image, Blair took us into a war because he wanted to look like this powerful world statesman, Cameron brought in Austerity to aid his friends and hit the hard core of the vulnerable in society, Johnson the erstwhile next leader only backed leave to gain power for himself a few days before he had argued for remain! I am still working out what May has benefitted from her tenure ( maybe a bit of business contracts for the other half who knows?)

[TepidT2O]

Can we not just refer to austerity as Tory cuts?

Because that’s what it is.

They’ve been gentrified by the use of the word.

[Jiminy Cricket]

the last bit of your post JC i find interesting maybe i am a cynic but i believe all leaders make decisions that benefit themselves, The Witch Thatcher wanted to mould society in her image, Blair took us into a war because he wanted to look like this powerful world statesman, Cameron brought in Austerity to aid his friends and hit the hard core of the vulnerable in society, Johnson the erstwhile next leader only backed leave to gain power for himself a few days before he had argued for remain! I am still working out what May has benefitted from her tenure ( maybe a bit of business contracts for the other half who knows?)

I never thought that. I just thought he was very wrong - and I'd argue, history has proven me and others against the anti-Iraq war as correct. No, Blair thought it was the right thing to do (to take on Islamists - that it was an inevitable battle anyway). We will never know if was inevitable in the way it has unfolded since then. But why provoke it? Well, that's my take. Blair was never Bush's poodle. I see it more as Bush's administrations pushing in the direction Blair already thought correct. Yes, Blair probably enjoyed looking 'statesmanly', but I really do not think that was the driving force behind his support for the war.

And just for the record, so there is no misunderstanding, I was vehemently against the war in Iraq, and quite loathed Blair. I attended the march in early 2003, even though I was really quite ill at the time.

[TepidT2O]

How thoroughly depressing

[jillcwhomever]

This piece from Nick Cohen, depressingly hits the mark in the situation politics is currently in.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/13/an-unelected-prime-minister-and-bullied-mps-can-we-still-call-this-a-democracy?CMP=share_btn_tw

[Commie Bobbie]

Len is totally spot on about Watson the sooner he's sacked the better this is about Jennie and her fight against cancer and Watson using it against her.

This is an interesting video hopefully it the kind of things Labour will present against Panorama.

https://twitter.com/NAJ562/status/1150087179965739008

Len would do well to shut the fuck up, the greasy handed fucknugget.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Police called round due to death threats to one of the whistleblowers.

I honestly don’t see the point for most members and MPs anymore. IF the party ever recovers from this nonsense and the likes of Corbyn, McCluskey etc are banished - I don’t think I could ever be convinced to vote for them again (which in itself is devastating). Genuinely don’t think the party can recover.

quick one to the older guys here, was this the feeling in those wilderness years in the 80s? Was before my time and I can only really remember from the mid 90s onwards but labour would basically need a Blair like figure supported by brown/cook types to detoxify the brand as they did. Right now I can’t see them getting back (don’t think I could ever trust them again personally so don’t see myself voting for them as labour) so not sure where things go from here