Author Topic: The Art of War  (Read 13659 times)

Offline BazC

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The Art of War
« on: August 2, 2008, 12:05:45 am »
‘What is of extreme importance in war is to upset the enemy’s strategic plans.’ (Sun Tzu)


In the time Rafa has been our manager we have seen criticism from all angles of the media, and lately from our own fans, about the way he approaches the game. Zonal marking, rotation policies, formations and the perceived lack of attacking ambition are the main points of contention, but I’ve heard some other snippets of comedy; “he’s so stubborn, he won’t listen to anyone else”. Righhht. Instead of listening to the oracles of tactical football such as Andy Gray, Richard Keys and chums, I thought I’d try and make sense of Rafa’s strategy by going back a couple of thousand years. Sun Tzu and The Art of War is a famous treatise on, well, the art of war, here I’ll look at transposing the ideals to football, and specifically our team under Rafael Benitez.

The basic philosophical premise of Sun Tzu is to win a battle with wisdom rather than force. Strategic thinking and manoeuvring is the path to success. The Art of War is split up into thirteen short chapters guiding the General on how to win his battles and the considerations he must take. Although I won’t stick to the text religiously when using it to analyse Rafa’s strategies (I have taken a few liberties when extrapolating The Art of War to the beautiful game), you will see Rafa’s own philosophy of football will hold similarities with Sun Tzu and his ideals of war.

Chapter 1: Estimates (Strategic Considerations)

Sun Tzu outlines certain factors and elements that need to be considered when setting out for war. By comparing such factors between the two warring states, a winner may be predicted. In football at least, things may not be so simple. We can go from the most detailed and meticulous of planning but end up on the losing side. That’s football. In this case, it may be worth bearing in mind that whatever the degree of planning, the game that is the platform of the war is such, that a winner, however likely, is never definitively the winner until those ninety minutes are up. Rafa will plan to the n¬¬¬th degree though, for I believe his principle is of extreme preparation. He will have an idea of what to do in the contingencies that arise during the game, but also how to set out his team from the start.

Chapter 2: Waging War


The war should be over quickly, says Sun Tzu, in order for your state to be spared economic difficulties involved and your men, the morale depletion. In our case, the quicker a game is won, the quicker that state of ‘cruise control’ can be reached. Of course the eagle eyed will note the contradiction between the previous chapter here. The game of football is more often than not, ninety minutes long. We have seen numerous times though, that the quicker the goals are scored, the easier it becomes to control the game and attack. Does Rafa set the team out to win the game as quick as possible? In my opinion, we’ve seen the team set out to gain control of the game as quickly as possible, and then turn that control into goals and the victory. The faster the game is put under our control, the more time the team has to push on from that and get those vital goals.


Chapter 3: Offensive Strategy

Sun Tzu said; "Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be defeated. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself your chances of victory are equal. If ignorant of both the enemy and yourself you are sure to be defeated in every battle".

We can see here that great importance is placed on the opposition and knowing their weaknesses and strengths compared to our own. Rafa pours over videos of upcoming competition and plans his strategy to defeat them by using that information. By knowing the qualities of our own team, he is able to outline his plans- which of our players will best exploit their weaknesses? Which of their players would exploit our weaknesses and what can we do about it? I feel that the depth of our squad and the rotation Rafa employs as well as the changing of positions and formations is rooted in this philosophy of Sun Tzu. Rafa rotates, in part, to make our strengths stronger and negate our weaknesses- all the while taking into consideration our next opponent.

Chapter 4: Dispositions

As Sun Tzu points out: "The skilful warriors in ancient times first made themselves invincible then awaited an enemy's moment of vulnerability."

This goes back to controlling the game- but not just the importance of doing so quickly, but the importance of why it is to be done. Rafa sets out with the mind to grasp the control of the game- win that midfield battle as quick as possible. In that midfield we have a concentration of top players who are able to hold their own against any midfield in the world in terms of skill and strength. By controlling the midfield, our players can that look at keeping the ball and creating chances when the opportunities present themselves. I’d like to see Rafa push this further up the pitch. Instead of looking to control possession around the middle third of the pitch, we should be looking to do it in the opposition third. By keeping calm in possession and not forcing the issue in this area, we pressure the opposition into revealing their vulnerabilities, and are in a better position to quickly exploit them. With Agger making his return, Skrtel establishing himself in his absence and the human homing missile that is Mascherano, we have the players to best protect our own vulnerability in such a situation; the counter-attack.

Chapter 5: Posture of the Army

"Generally in battle, use the normal forces to engage and the extraordinary to win".

This particular Sun Tzu-ism is very apt when talking about our ‘match-winners’- those extraordinary forces. In my opinion, the teams at the top are closely matched in terms of their normal forces- the players that fight it out. It’s our extraordinary players who will win us the league; to some extent, the normal players will just provide them with the platform to do so. That sounds like a dismissal of most of our team; Kuyt, Finnan, Carragher, Voronin and the like. But the fact that they provide the platform for Torres, Gerrard and hopefully Keane to make that difference holds as much, if not more, importance. In Torres and Gerrard we have two of the greatest footballers in the world, but they wouldn’t be able to reach the top of their game if it wasn’t for the work of players like Mascherano, Dirk Kuyt and Carragher. In signing Robbie Keane for big money, I feel Rafa is planning to introduce another extraordinary force in our team- so we can win more of those battles.

Chapter 6: Void and Actuality


I’ll start this with another Sun Tzu quote… (Bear with me!)

"Appear at places which he is unable to rescue; move swiftly in a direction where you are least expected"


By taking into consideration previous principles of knowing the opposition and yourself, and controlling the possession, this ideal is a progression. When Rafa is considering the next opponent he will be looking at their weaknesses, but at the same time he will be looking at ways in which to catch them off guard. Juventus at Anfield in 2005 is an example of how Rafa set the team out to batter the unsuspecting Juventus team. It has also become a criticism, in my opinion valid, in recent times that our attacking players are sometimes to lethargic and predictable. The more unpredictable our play is in attack, the less the opponent will be able to prepare for it. Again, I feel Rafa’s rotation is, to some extent, based on this principle- by constantly changing his team (and every now and then leaving it as it is) he makes sure the next manager is unable to second guess him. Now is the time to take it that step further. By freeing up the attacking players to express themselves a bit more and be less organised, that extra level of unpredictability will be introduced. The versatility of Gerrard, Keane, Babel, Benayoun and Kuyt means we may just get to see such a volatile attacking system.

Chapter 7: Manoeuvring

The formation. Whether it’s two out and out strikers, a lone striker, three at the back, attacking fullbacks with holding midfielders… Rafa will know what to do at what time. He has the options to manoeuvre his team in various ways, and will change it depending on the players he has fit and the team he is facing. This has been a point of contention amongst the fans during his time here- fans who think we should stick to the one system and suppress rotation. But what is important, according to our man Sun Tzu, is that there is no disorder amongst the team. As long as the players know what to do in the system, who to communicate to and when, then there should not be a problem. As long as Rafa puts the players in positions they are able to play well in, then success should come. It is at times when players make mistakes out of character, when they may sulk when played out of position or when Rafa may make the mistake of playing a player in a position he should be in is when it isn’t a good idea. With the depth of our squad and versatility of our players, the latter is unlikely- Rafa’s intelligent enough not to make such mistakes often, but there were questions about mentality of certain players last season. This will need to change.


Chapter 8: The Nine Variables

Instead of looking at the nine variables I’ll consider Sun Tzu’s points towards the end of this chapter:

“There are five qualities which are fatal in the character of a general: if reckless he can be killed; if cowardly, captured; if quick-tempered, he can be provoked to rage and make a fool of himself; if he has to delicate a sense of honour he can be easily insulted; if he is of a compassionate nature, you can harass him.”

Why does Rafa distance himself from the players? We’ve heard how Rafa isn’t the ‘arm around the shoulder’ type manager and I think this passage may make sense as to why. Rafa keeps utmost professionalism at the forefront of his philosophy- that way the relationships he has with his players are on the same level and they all know what to expect from each other. Rafa expects his plans to be carried out as well as possible by the players, and the players expect Rafa to provide them with the guidance to better themselves and win trophies. We see players talk of how Rafa’s training sessions are hard and how he pushes his players all the way, but at the same time, the players acknowledge how good his influence is.

Chapter 9: On the March


In this chapter Sun Tzu talks about various situations and signals on the battlefield which should be considered when positioning the army. I’ll take this chance to consider zonal marking.

Initially the system was shaky, but it quickly developed into the best way of defending set pieces in the League. The strict organisation and positioning of our players kept out goals and has seen our defence become one of the meanest around. Until last season. Last season, we saw more goals being conceded through these set pieces than at any other time under Rafa. Points were lost due to the breakdown of this system. Although the leaky defence got patched up to some extent by the end of the season, in my opinion I thought it was a significant scare to consider the system and why it had all of a sudden become, to some extent, a liability. Did other Premier League managers figure out the best way to attack our system? If so, it’d be Rafa’s signal to re-position his team when defending in certain situations.

Chapter 10 and Chapter 11: Terrain and The Nine Varieties of Ground


In these chapters Sun Tzu talks of the differences in terrain- mountains, swamps, forests and such like and how to approach the different situations strategically, whilst also considering how the enemy is set out. Now, whilst the JJB and Stamford Bridge resemble swamps, I don’t think looking at the small potholes and strategising the navigation of them would be that beneficial- I don’t think Rafa goes that far! Rather, I’ll look at these chapters to understand the different formations and strategies we come up against. This goes back to previous chapters- and the link can be made between how Rafa sets our team out in response to how he believes the opponent sets out. We’ll face teams who come to Anfield to defend and nothing else. In this situation it’s important to keep control of the ball, and probe the opposition defence into giving that opening. Now that we have top attacking players, we should be able to do just this. Ryan Babel, whilst showing flashes of his lightening potential; that thunderous shot or electric pace, wasn’t consistently a threat. Next season, he will need to step his game up, keep the ball better and be one of the players who help us break the stubborn defences of Steve Bruce… and any other inert attacking teams.

When we face quality teams with good defences, we’ll need to fully utilise the qualities of our attacking players. The midfield needs to step up to the plate in this situation.

Chapter 12: Fighting with Fire

I’m going to take a bit of creative allegorical license here and talk about our support and Anfield and what it means to the way we play our football. Whilst this isn’t necessarily in the control of Rafa, he can use the Anfield factor.

“Those who use fire to assist their attacks can achieve good results; those who use inundations produce a powerful effect.”


The sheer noise and sweltering red sea in Anfield on the day of a big game is legendary. When we have our big games, we need every advantage we can get, and we all know the power of our support. When at Anfield, Rafa can red line our attacking play, for he knows that not only does the support spur on the men in Red, but it also intimidates those lining up against us. There are many examples through the history of our club when our players have used that adrenaline burst to get past teams apparently so much better than us. In the coming season, with the new additions to our squad, I expect the team to win more games at Anfield and turn it back into the fortress it was in Rafa’s second season here.

Chapter 13: Use of Spies


“Spy operations are essential in war; upon them the army relies to make its every move.”

In this section we could consider Rafa’s highly sophisticated methods of gathering data on his players and his opponents in order to formulate his strategies. I’d like to talk about his worldwide network of scouts, gathering information on the possible transfer targets. 

The transfer targets Rafa outlines will be mostly from his scouting reports. In the age of big money in football, where there are a few teams able to buy any player in the world, it is of utmost importance that Rafa’s scouting network works more creatively. By searching out the lesser known players who are likely to inject that quality in our squad, we will build a title winning team. We have seen it not only in the purchase of younger players; recent Northern Reserve League and two time FA Youth Cup winners, but on purchases for the first team. Daniel Agger, Ryan Babel and Martin Skrtel are cases to illustrate the point. One could even point to Vidic- who was earmarked for a move to Liverpool but ended up at Old Trafford and has turned out to be a good acquisition for a good price. In order for our team to carry on building such a squad, the scouts at Rafa’s disposal need to keep producing the goods. I mean, any person can spend £50m to purchase a Kaka… it takes an efficient system of scouts to buy that ability on a shoestring budget.

Summary


So, we can see that Sun Tzu’s philosophies may be extrapolated to football, and some of his ideals resemble, or at least explain, Rafa’s strategy and thinking when it comes to our team. I don’t mean for this post to advocate that Rafa’s approach to the game is right, I just mean for this post to try and make sense of it. Instead of listening to the sub standard, and in some cases, biased, punditry, I thought I’d listen to a bloke with a bit of wisdom- it’s the least Rafa deserves after the work he puts in with our team.

Under Rafa the team has subjectively and objectively increased in quality. Under Rafa, the youth and reserve teams have also increased in quality. Unfortunately, under Rafa, the emergence of a hyper-rich club in Chelsea significantly raised the bar which constitutes the required level of quality required to win the Premier League title. Manchester Utd have been the only team to challenge Chelsea in the league since, however, they have also spent big money on the little areas in their squad that needed improving. In the last couple of seasons we have been able to spend the money in more concentrated areas. Torres, Mascherano, Keane and Babel have cost a lot of money and have also improved the first team.

In my opinion, the increase in quality in our first team, and the increase in quality the reserve and youth teams shows that Rafa is doing as much as he can to win that Premier League title. I believe that under our current management, we’ll win it. I mean, Sun Tzu said so:

"The general who heeds my counsel is sure to win. Such a general should be retained in command. One who ignores my counsel is sure to be defeated. Such a one should be dismissed."

“This place will become a bastion of invincibility and you are very lucky young man to be here. They will all come here and be beaten son”

Offline Hinesy

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #1 on: August 2, 2008, 12:37:32 am »
Well I think you've done a great job in linking Tzu's work with Rafa's tactics. Ultimately the two are about the same thing: horses for course, flexibility and constant appraisal of the situation.

Sometimes though it frustrates me that Liverpool flex according to the opposition rather than make them fear us and adapt to play us. I guess this year, at home especially, Rafa will have to set out ourstall for the majority of games and let the other teams try to play us, worry about us and how we play not vice versa.

But given most of football is military orientated (attack, defence, territorial gain, captains etc) The Art of War is as good a book as any to link to it, and I think you've highlighted Rafa's strengths very well, even if a couple are a little tenuous ;)

Well written mate.
Yep.

Offline baz

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #2 on: August 2, 2008, 12:41:02 am »
Amazing post. The quality of some of the posts on RAWK these days is frighteningly good. So good that i'm beginning to think i know extremely little about football, tactics, strategy and all that. I guess i'll have to keep reading to get to the level of some of you guys.

Offline Gary_17

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #3 on: August 2, 2008, 12:58:24 am »
Amazing post mate.

Sometimes though it frustrates me that Liverpool flex according to the opposition rather than make them fear us and adapt to play us. I guess this year, at home especially, Rafa will have to set out ourstall for the majority of games and let the other teams try to play us, worry about us and how we play not vice versa.

Thats exactly what some of my United mates say to me, that we change our play to suit the opposition, instead of playing primarily to our strengths.
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #4 on: August 2, 2008, 01:37:14 am »
Ah, the famous Sun Tzu. Must find that book again.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Vulmea

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #5 on: August 2, 2008, 01:44:00 am »
Think the OP is excellent and because of that I'll try to pick a few holes and add a few things

Sun Tzu wrote about 24/25 hundred years ago - many things stay the same but many change - we now live in the day of the individual - rafa himself claims 'game intelligence' is the key difference between a good and a great player - 24/2500 years ago a battlefield was a messy place and communication was difficult - now rafa can expect the players to play the game how they see it not just be pawns in a game - back then the 'general' had to be far more rigid than today.


Think you dismiss chapters 10 and 11 a little easily - think a better parallel would be the differences between visiting old trafford in a rainy November midweek evening game, Hull at home at 3 o'clock on an august weekend saturday, being 3-0 up in a european tie with the home leg to come,  playing  a champs league final or Barnsley at home in the fa cup  - each represents different 'ground' and different conditions, each requires  different 'strategy' to win......our games against chelsea in cup, europe and league are good examples

each chapter nearly always includes something about the general undestanding and controlling his troops - I'm not sure this is rafa's forte - its one thing knowing what you need to do and another actually doing it.

For me we are poor under rafa playing opposition we are expected to beat comfortably - we rarely if ever go for the jugular when teams are on the rack (it was another of Sun Tzu's idea's that you should always allow a beaten army to escape home... not sure I  agree with that.......

interesting stuff though



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Offline IloveGuinness17

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #6 on: August 2, 2008, 01:49:09 am »
cool post mate
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Offline Degs

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #7 on: August 2, 2008, 01:49:31 am »
Thats exactly what some of my United mates say to me, that we change our play to suit the opposition, instead of playing primarily to our strengths.
I think it's part of the reason we excel in Europe yet falter in the League.

In Europe the aim is to not get beat.  To progress in a knockout competition you must not lose. It's perfectly acceptable to nullify the opposition away from home, even a 1-0 defeat in a two legged tie is seen as a "result", as long as at the end of the 180 minutes (or more) you are the team that progresses.  Whether it be from away goals, penalties or in the 90 somebody must win.

By analysing the other team to its core and setting ourselves up accordingly Rafa makes sure that firstly we don't lose and then secondly we go for the win.  This is fine in Europe when a 0-0 with Barcelona is great, but you can't do it to Birmingham, Wigan, Portsmouth, Villa etc. It's not a case of being in the same boat, Sunderland would bite your hand off if you offered them a point and rather than sending our best 11 out and saying "Now lads go out and dismantle these, if we're twatting them you can come off and have a rest" instead we say "Birmingham can deal with Torres so we'll play Voronin" and end up brining the lad on with just enough time to have about 1 shot (which hits the bar).

As much as I hate the Mancs we have to learn from the twats.  They send out their best players to go out and score goals and win the match, it doesn't matter who they play you know that to get anything from the game you'll have to keep Rooney, Tevez, and Ronaldo quiet for the game.  With us you're always worried about who will start rather than eager to see your starting 11 tear the other team apart.

Rafa is boss but if we're going to praise him for the things he does brilliantly we equally have to criticise him when he's doing things wrong.
What I would like this season would be for Rafa to write down his team, then look up at fixture list and say "Who's in for it today then".  Obviously it's an exaggeration we have to know where to exploit but it's a problem we've had for a while now.

Play to our strengths, not their weaknesses.     
« Last Edit: August 2, 2008, 01:51:38 am by Degs »

Offline Juan Loco

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #8 on: August 2, 2008, 01:52:07 am »
I've got that book somewhere. Don't feel the need to read it now that I've read that ;D ... Unless there's a hidden chapter that Rafa has clearly missed about making the most of your set pieces, y'know, something about making the most of your opportunities to attack and your advantage? We win more corners than any other team in the league if I'm not mistaken, but only scored from 4 last season, and 3 of those were cleared out of the box before the goal came about.
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Offline BazC

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #9 on: August 2, 2008, 02:00:22 am »
Well I think you've done a great job in linking Tzu's work with Rafa's tactics. Ultimately the two are about the same thing: horses for course, flexibility and constant appraisal of the situation.

Sometimes though it frustrates me that Liverpool flex according to the opposition rather than make them fear us and adapt to play us. I guess this year, at home especially, Rafa will have to set out ourstall for the majority of games and let the other teams try to play us, worry about us and how we play not vice versa.

But given most of football is military orientated (attack, defence, territorial gain, captains etc) The Art of War is as good a book as any to link to it, and I think you've highlighted Rafa's strengths very well, even if a couple are a little tenuous ;)

Well written mate.

Thanks for that- changed it a bit from the original- and you can blame Garstonite for the tenuous links  ;D

I agree that I'd like to see Rafa set our team out his way, and let the opponents adapt to our level of brilliance... but I was just trying to make sense of Rafa's thinking and level of strategising by likening it to Sun Tzu.

Think the OP is excellent and because of that I'll try to pick a few holes and add a few things

Sun Tzu wrote about 24/25 hundred years ago - many things stay the same but many change - we now live in the day of the individual - rafa himself claims 'game intelligence' is the key difference between a good and a great player - 24/2500 years ago a battlefield was a messy place and communication was difficult - now rafa can expect the players to play the game how they see it not just be pawns in a game - back then the 'general' had to be far more rigid than today.


You're right, I alsot hink it's worth remembering that Sun Tzu was setting out his ideas on actual warfare. I know away trips to Goodison, Old Trafford and the Reebok come close, but it's not actual war consisting of tens of thousands of men scattered for as far as the eye can see. That's why I picked out as much of the ideals I could and made the tenuous links in other parts  ;D


Think you dismiss chapters 10 and 11 a little easily - think a better parallel would be the differences between visiting old trafford in a rainy November midweek evening game, Hull at home at 3 o'clock on an august weekend saturday, being 3-0 up in a european tie with the home leg to come,  playing  a champs league final or Barnsley at home in the fa cup  - each represents different 'ground' and different conditions, each requires  different 'strategy' to win......our games against chelsea in cup, europe and league are good examples


I think that's going a bit far- simply because Rafa can't control where the games are played and in which weather. I'm sure I could have talked about the differences in playing on a sunny day on a well pruned pitch to those of playing in a waterlogged pitch at night, but it seemed like it was going a bit too far!

each chapter nearly always includes something about the general undestanding and controlling his troops - I'm not sure this is rafa's forte - its one thing knowing what you need to do and another actually doing it.

For me we are poor under rafa playing opposition we are expected to beat comfortably - we rarely if ever go for the jugular when teams are on the rack (it was another of Sun Tzu's idea's that you should always allow a beaten army to escape home... not sure I  agree with that.......

interesting stuff though

Again, going back to my reply to hinesy- I just tried to use this particular text to make sense of Rafa's ideas. I don't necessarily have a strong opinion that Rafa's right in doing so (or indeed, that he's wrong). There are times I'd like to see us go for the jugular instead of holding back and looking to control the midfield...

On your last point, there was an interesting conversation I had with my Turkish mate (Beşiktaş fan) after the 8-0. He said that if it was in Turkey, the winning team would have stopped scoring goals after 3/4-0 and the game would effectively be conceded by the team that was being annihalated. He didn't agree with us embarrassing his beloved Beşiktaş... I actually laughed at the time. I wouldn't agree with allowing the beaten enemy to escape, but maybe some people do in football  :)

I think it's part of the reason we excel in Europe yet falter in the League.

In Europe the aim is to not get beat.  To progress in a knockout competition you must not lose. It's perfectly acceptable to nullify the opposition away from home, even a 1-0 defeat in a two legged tie is seen as a "result", as long as at the end of the 180 minutes (or more) you are the team that progresses.  Whether it be from away goals, penalties or in the 90 somebody must win.

By analysing the other team to its core and setting ourselves up accordingly Rafa makes sure that firstly we don't lose and then secondly we go for the win.  This is fine in Europe when a 0-0 with Barcelona is great, but you can't do it to Birmingham, Wigan, Portsmouth, Villa etc. It's not a case of being in the same boat, Sunderland would bite your hand off if you offered them a point and rather than sending our best 11 out and saying "Now lads go out and dismantle these, if we're twatting them you can come off and have a rest" instead we say "Birmingham can deal with Torres so we'll play Voronin" and end up brining the lad on with just enough time to have about 1 shot (which hits the bar).

As much as I hate the Mancs we have to learn from the twats.  They send out their best players to go out and score goals and win the match, it doesn't matter who they play you know that to get anything from the game you'll have to keep Rooney, Tevez, and Ronaldo quiet for the game.  With us you're always worried about who will start rather than eager to see your starting 11 tear the other team apart.

Rafa is boss but if we're going to praise him for the things he does brilliantly we equally have to criticise him when he's doing things wrong.
What I would like this season would be for Rafa to write down his team, then look up at fixture list and say "Who's in for it today then".  Obviously it's an exaggeration we have to know where to exploit but it's a problem we've had for a while now.

Play to our strengths, not their weaknesses.    

Agree with that completely Degs. My original post was actually going to include my opinions on that particular matter- but I thought it'd get too long!

I've got that book somewhere. Don't feel the need to read it now that I've read that ;D ... Unless there's a hidden chapter that Rafa has clearly missed about making the most of your set pieces, y'know, something about making the most of your opportunities to attack and your advantage? We win more corners than any other team in the league if I'm not mistaken, but only scored from 4 last season, and 3 of those were cleared out of the box before the goal came about.

The book's about 50 pages long- you could read it in one sitting! I actually read it, then when I thought of posting this, scanned through it again. Very short book.
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Offline RedRush

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #10 on: August 2, 2008, 02:42:44 am »
Sun Tzu also said that to beat teams that park the bus in front of their goal, get Ronaldo to dive in their penalty box.

Good post, I think some points are relevant to Rafa's thinking merely because they are universal ideas and are thus also relevant to certain aspects of our daily lives. Good job linking the 13 chapters to Rafa though I feel some of the chapters need to be refined, for example Chapter 12 should really be about making the most out of setpieces, while our support, Fortress Anfield can be placed in Chapters 10 and 11. Just my two cents worth.
« Last Edit: August 2, 2008, 02:46:18 am by RedRush »

Offline Rigden

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #11 on: August 2, 2008, 03:20:34 am »
Boy, reading all of these fantastic threads is making me so excited for the upcoming season! Could this be the year?
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Offline buchigo!

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #12 on: August 2, 2008, 04:29:46 am »
good read baz- i skim through art of war everyday. suits us perfectly :)
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Offline Shanks1965

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #13 on: August 2, 2008, 06:10:22 am »
Sun Tzu.... didn't he favour wing backs?

What?
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Offline jribi

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #14 on: August 2, 2008, 06:11:28 am »
My favourite book. I honestly thought that Rafa has read this book when I finished it.

I think you have made a great comparison.

Also, though: "Attack with all your might, defend fiercely"

The likes of Carragher and Kuyt support this. Each player he buys have a burning desire to win regardless of talent.

Offline rossipersempre

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #15 on: August 2, 2008, 08:16:49 am »
Very good post.

I look forward to the sequel based on Machiavelli's The Prince, concerning the scheming of a couple of Yankee cowboys, a feckless clown, a remorseful owner who wants a refund on the price of his soul, and a shrewd Spaniard with a goatee and a point to prove...... ;)
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Offline freedom

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #16 on: August 2, 2008, 08:40:39 am »
A m a z i n g  post!   :wellin
Bill Shankly: " A lot of football success is in the mind. You must believe you are the best and then make sure that you are. "

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #17 on: August 2, 2008, 08:52:42 am »
Good post. You don't expect the media to pick up on anything intelligent. Basically they are thick c*nts that know fuck all about anything - with one or two minor exceptions.
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Offline 7777

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #18 on: August 2, 2008, 09:20:10 am »
Sun Tzu said; "Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be defeated. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself your chances of victory are equal. If ignorant of both the enemy and yourself you are sure to be defeated in every battle".


Great post Baz

I had that quote as my signature for a long time on here regarding Rafa and his enemies, once he got to know them and the league, they were fucked

He is just taking longer than I thought!

Offline harrytrow

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #19 on: August 2, 2008, 10:11:20 am »
Good post
Did Sun Tzu have a tactic of having two armies and rotate them to keep them fresh for the next battle?
How come pointed questions recieve blunt answers

Offline SSP

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #20 on: August 2, 2008, 12:48:05 pm »
Shouldn't that be S*n Tzu?

Offline Garstonite

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #21 on: August 2, 2008, 01:11:40 pm »
Shouldn't that be S*n Tzu?

;D

Well in Baz - just read the rest of this this morning and I think you've done an excellent job on it. I guess it would have been apt for you to throw in the infamous 'crushing machine' label tagged onto his Valencia team, but that would probably be me forcing more tenuous links on to you :D

Seriously though mate- fine post.
« Last Edit: August 2, 2008, 02:22:51 pm by Garstonite »

Offline BazC

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #22 on: August 2, 2008, 02:40:43 pm »
Sun Tzu also said that to beat teams that park the bus in front of their goal, get Ronaldo to dive in their penalty box.

Good post, I think some points are relevant to Rafa's thinking merely because they are universal ideas and are thus also relevant to certain aspects of our daily lives. Good job linking the 13 chapters to Rafa though I feel some of the chapters need to be refined, for example Chapter 12 should really be about making the most out of setpieces, while our support, Fortress Anfield can be placed in Chapters 10 and 11. Just my two cents worth.

It's open to interpretation. I suppose that's why The Art of War is so famous in these times given how old it is- and has been used to analyse many non-war situations.

Shouldn't that be S*n Tzu?

 :D

;D

Well in Baz - just read the rest of this this morning and I think you've done an excellent job on it. I guess it would have been apt for you to throw in the infamous 'crushing machine' label tagged onto his Valencia team, but that would probably be me forcing more tenuous links on to you :D

Seriously though mate- fine post.

Cheers mate. I think the way I originally started it would have been a bit crap- too long, and maybe a bit too detailed (would have resulted in more of those tenuous links!) but I took your advice- definitely reads better this way, and am pleased with how it turned out  :) Nice one.

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Offline Vulmea

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #23 on: August 2, 2008, 03:21:49 pm »
I think that's going a bit far- simply because Rafa can't control where the games are played and in which weather. I'm sure I could have talked about the differences in playing on a sunny day on a well pruned pitch to those of playing in a waterlogged pitch at night, but it seemed like it was going a bit too far!


Rafa can't control teh weather, where we play or when but he does control how we play in those circumstances

These chapters aren't just about the state of the battlefield/pitch, high ground, weather etc - they deal mainly with home advantage and preparation - about whether you attack  a team of equal strength away from home etc - They can easily be linked to the way rafa shuts up shop away from home against the top teams whilst against lesser teams he often opens up and attacks (at least for 20 minutes) - similarly the way we play cagey against top teams at home... his tactics in these circumstances are possibly the most direct comparisons and in battle they are probably correct but in footie nobody dies and we shouldn't be so adverse to taking risks as we are

Chapter 10 also bangs on about morale and winning mentality - another strong feature with rafa - when he first arrived he said it was the first thing he had to change and the most difficult to do

Think its also important to appreciate rafa's faith in the 12th man how it impacts confidence etc again a feature of chapter 10/11

bet rafa is cursing you that his tactics manual is in the public domain


 
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Offline kingjari

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #24 on: August 2, 2008, 08:15:55 pm »
Very good post.

I look forward to the sequel based on Machiavelli's The Prince, concerning the scheming of a couple of Yankee cowboys, a feckless clown, a remorseful owner who wants a refund on the price of his soul, and a shrewd Spaniard with a goatee and a point to prove...... ;)

ha ha, me too when you put it like that. Very interesting post Baz. ta
« Last Edit: August 2, 2008, 08:21:14 pm by kingjari »
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Offline INDUSTRYRED

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #25 on: August 2, 2008, 10:15:41 pm »
Fantastic idea to write an article on,some very good points raised in most of what you wrote.

Its been explained in such a way as makes it easy to understand the similarities.

Thouroghly enjoyed it thanks. ;D

Jamie.

Offline Yozz

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #26 on: August 2, 2008, 10:40:20 pm »
That was an enjoyable read. Thanks for taking the time to write it and thanks for sharing.  ;)
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Offline CTKelly

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #27 on: August 4, 2008, 03:30:50 am »
Great post mate, well thought out and set up.  :)
carry your future strong

Offline BazC

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #28 on: August 4, 2008, 11:02:37 pm »
Thanks for the comments- enjoyed writing it, so good to hear some enjoyed reading it  :wave

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Offline lucid-tentacles

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #29 on: August 5, 2008, 09:43:15 am »
The best read i've had in a long while
I don't mind waitin', don't mind waitin'
Cause no matter how long it takes
All of us know
That it's getting better
Growing stronger, warm and wilder
Getting better everyday,

Offline Raul!

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #30 on: August 5, 2008, 10:05:28 am »
Great fun reading that Baz and a very interesting approach to describe how we think under Rafa. 

Offline Morse

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2008, 01:37:26 am »
I will pretend I've read that and congratulate you on it.


Well done!

Offline Kakashi Hatake

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2008, 04:02:38 pm »
Haha, nice read.

Offline irishred1991

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2008, 09:26:19 pm »
I will pretend I've read that and congratulate you on it.


Well done!

me too
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Offline BazC

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2008, 09:34:01 pm »
Morse/ irishred - Erm... thanks  ???

Raul/Kakashi-  :thumbup

lucid- thanks- but if it's the best you've read in a long while, you need to get reading a bit more  ;)
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Offline RiversideRed

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I see us more likely to go the way of Newcastle than Manchester United.
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2008, 11:34:14 pm »
We need consistent Hunger, Ambition, Combativeness and Contempt for other teams.  Tactical nous and professionalism are not sufficient for greatness.
We must be Diabolical and Rafa does not provide that.
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Offline BazC

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Re: I see us more likely to go the way of Newcastle than Manchester United.
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2008, 08:43:43 pm »
We need consistent Hunger, Ambition, Combativeness and Contempt for other teams.  Tactical nous and professionalism are not sufficient for greatness.
We must be Diabolical and Rafa does not provide that.

Erm... we'll leave the devil imagery to the Mancs.

I agree with the first sentence though- and the 2nd as well actually. The first comes down to mentality- and I don't think the team has the right one to win the league. Well, from what I've seen in the league these last couple of seasons. Especially last season, I think we had a team of enough quality to seriously challenge for the title. But we did nothing of the sort. Of course, the whole ownership saga didn't help, but I don't know how much of an effect it truly had on our game. I suppose we won't be able to tell.

Professonalism and tactical nous won't be enough to win the league, but they are important. Hopefully this season we'll see a team that looks like it's hungry to win the title, rather than just going through the motions (which I did notice last season). The way we ended and started last season- with confidence, top class football and that winning way, was perfect. It just seems that when the going gets a little rough and we need to truly grind out a result, we end up with the wrong result.

The mentality thing will also be of most importance when playing against the top 2 sides and Arsenal as well. We need more belief that we can win those games. Watching Masch last season at the Mancs was brilliant- we need passion- that same passion and determination Masch had... but channelled and focused properly. Ultimately, it is those matches against the other top 4 that'll seperate us from them at the end of the season.
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Offline RiversideRed

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2008, 02:17:49 am »
Ok BazC not diabolical but there must be fire and bite.  When we lose points it needs to be an affront to our domination.  It would require far superior technical play to beat teams willing to do anything to win and we don't posses that.  Your right, the Masch incident highlights the problems with unchanneled aggression but I think it resulted from a bit of a victim complex.  Let’s pray that Lucas and Masch coming back will help instill an unrelenting need to win that competing for a major international trophy has required.  Maybe they can bring ideas as well.
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Offline josemisuncle

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2008, 07:39:43 pm »
Well I think you've done a great job in linking Tzu's work with Rafa's tactics. Ultimately the two are about the same thing: horses for course, flexibility and constant appraisal of the situation.

Sometimes though it frustrates me that Liverpool flex according to the opposition rather than make them fear us and adapt to play us.  I guess this year, at home especially, Rafa will have to set out ourstall for the majority of games and let the other teams try to play us, worry about us and how we play not vice versa.

But given most of football is military orientated (attack, defence, territorial gain, captains etc) The Art of War is as good a book as any to link to it, and I think you've highlighted Rafa's strengths very well, even if a couple are a little tenuous ;)

Well written mate.

Sometimes it's not a bad idea to let a team do what they do best if you know you have a sure fire way to negate it.  Take the example of Chelsea and their overlapping full backs.  It was obvious and was noted by Scolari after the game that the team got sucked into always attacking down the wings, because Riera and Kuyt went very narrow, but that it would do them no good because we had the beating of them on the crosses 100 times out of 100.

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Re: The Art of War
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2008, 07:58:34 pm »
hey joe... (pardon the song..)
that was written pre-season but I guess it still stands to a degree with teams like Chelsea but I don't mind that, and would expect that, be it Arsenal, or the mancs or Chelsea. My frustration is that we did do it with most teams, rather than some, but that to a degree isn't the case anymore this year so far.
Yep.