Author Topic: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?  (Read 10227 times)

Offline LiamG

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Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« on: May 3, 2013, 08:32:02 am »
For Example, The Welsh Premier League, Wale's National league, OK it's missing Wrexham,Cardiff,Swansea and Newport but it still has the likes of Bangor,TNS and now Rhyl back in it

But The league is going nowhere in a hurry, Attendances are down this season by 15% Llanelli have just been wound up for tax debts, Along with Neath last season that's 2 big clubs in the league!

TNS will continue to win the league every season, they are after all, the only full time club in the league, and with finances being so tight in the league there will probably not be another full time team for quite a while!

So what could the clubs and the FAW do? investment in youth? Stadium improvements etc?

Hardly no clubs from the southern feeder leagues have any ambition, think only 1 club applied for a WPL license where as in the North feeder leagues there are plenty of clubs with ambition

How do smaller countries like Ireland and N.Ireland manage to do a lot better with their leagues for example
« Last Edit: May 3, 2013, 08:36:38 am by LiamG »

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #1 on: May 3, 2013, 08:58:44 am »
1) Better and more coaching at the youth level - make it a long term plan to develop great technical players. They can't all go to England and abroad, so those who don't will stay and improve the level of the game. Those that do will bring in money to the clubs that developed them.

2) Purpose-built stadia - don't play in grounds that are too big for your fan base. Live within your means

3) Semi-pro status - £300 per week is not a lot in the greater scheme of professional football, but any young lad who wants to play football could do well with that and a part-time job. Strip away the mystique of professional football and operate it as a means to an end and young technical players might stay in the game to improve the level

4) Coaching again - look for the brightest and best, regardless of their playing background. If they can coach, they will pass their badges. If they can pass their badges, don't overlook them for trendier ex-players

5) Hire me. :D
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Online gerrardisgod

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #2 on: May 3, 2013, 09:00:43 am »
What effect, if any, did the switch to summer football have on attendances in Ireland?
AHA!

Offline AB LFC

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #3 on: May 3, 2013, 09:06:12 am »
I'd say get more people interested in football. Bundesliga have done this well by having cheap ticket prices and people will enjoy football more. Sure, it'll attract a lot of day trippers but who knows, they might become big fans and their kids might want to take up football as a career. Before you know it, we'll be seeing the new Messi from something like that. Personally, really want to see some teams from Sweden, Norway and Turkey do well as they do have a good league from what I've seen over the past few years.

Offline LiamG

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #4 on: May 3, 2013, 09:13:42 am »

2) Purpose-built stadia - don't play in grounds that are too big for your fan base. Live within your means


This is one problem i think, The current license for grounds to get in the WPL is "Minimum capacity of 1,500 with at least 500 covered seats which must be tip-up (bench seating prohibited)" Yet the average attendance for the league this season was 279

Of course the WPL are looking at it that if the grounds look professional on tv etc then the league would get more credibility but many clubs in the feeder leagues can not afford to meet the criteria


Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #5 on: May 3, 2013, 09:14:02 am »
1) Better and more coaching at the youth level - make it a long term plan to develop great technical players. They can't all go to England and abroad, so those who don't will stay and improve the level of the game. Those that do will bring in money to the clubs that developed them.
This is something which has been of great interest to me in the last few years.  I was surprised to see the FA's 4 corner model for long-term player development.  In my opinion it is spot on.  It's got everything.  All the ingredients to cultivate good, balanced, technical players.  Supposedly this was put together 8/9 years ago.

So where are they?  The players?  We should be pumping out something by now.  There is some sort of missing link between theory and practice. 

Also we have a lack of UEFA level coaches in this country.  Are the FA doing enough to pass potential coaches?  Or do we simply not have the level here?

Offline LiamG

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #6 on: May 3, 2013, 09:15:14 am »
What effect, if any, did the switch to summer football have on attendances in Ireland?


Not too sure i can't really find any attendance figures from before & after the change which was in 2003

Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #7 on: May 3, 2013, 09:35:06 am »
Also just want to briefly comment on funding.  The Premier League is top heavy.  Too much money gets lost because it is blown on excessive transfer fees, wages and agents.  We need to develop a progressive system which not only rewards clubs for developing and playing academy players but as a consequence incentivises them to invest in coaches. 

The FA also need to look at the type of people they are attracting to coaching.  Really mean no offence here but it is a good point to start from.

Offline LiamG

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #8 on: May 3, 2013, 09:45:59 am »
Just thought i'd say, i was focusing more on the smaller leagues of the world/europe like the Welsh league, a league which is ranked 48th in europe (out of 53)

How can the likes of Moldova and Bosnia (similar population to Wales) be so much higher in the UEFA Coefficient?

Offline kopitecrash

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #9 on: May 3, 2013, 10:11:44 am »
Youth systems and coaching first and foremost. It amuses me that in Scotland it's considered that switching the league around will fix everything. They need better youth systems and a lore more coaches, and the SFA needs to be paying for it. Same in Wales, same in Ireland. Youth systems I feel, can be a massive rejuvenating factor and should be taken more seriously. 
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Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #10 on: May 3, 2013, 03:25:00 pm »
How can the likes of Moldova and Bosnia (similar population to Wales) be so much higher in the UEFA Coefficient?
Part of that is just all round enthusiasm mate. I can't really speak much for the locals populace's love of the game, as I've rarely visited Wales in the right mode to find out (other than trips to Llandudno and Talacre). From what I can gather though, Rugby is the nation's first sporting love and takes precedence over footy. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course there will always be an enthusiastic support for football, but given the small population and football having to battle with a sport that's potentially more popular, has a better infrastructure at all levels and you're better at, there's perhaps part of the reason the league struggles. Don't forget the fact that all of Wales's League teams are now Premier League clubs, that's surely going to draw a lot of supporters away from the more modest Welsh League. 
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Offline Walshy nMe®

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #11 on: May 3, 2013, 04:41:32 pm »
This goes here IMO.

Scottish Football League: Ten clubs consider breakaway
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22404102

Ten clubs are ready to quit the Scottish Football League in time for next season, BBC Scotland has learned.
A letter signed by the 10 clubs is to be sent to the Scottish Premier League ahead of their meeting next week.
Rangers are not among the clubs involved in the possible breakaway.
The letter will stress that their preference for league restructuring is through dialogue with all 42 senior clubs but if that cannot be achieved the SPL should consider a second tier.
The 10 clubs are understood to have taken independent legal advice about quitting the SFL without the required two years' notice.
For any breakaway to succeed, SPL clubs would need to approve the plan with an 11-1 majority required.
The move comes against the backdrop of protracted talks on root-and-branch reform of the Scottish game.
Plans for a new three-tier set-up with two leagues of 12 and a division of 18 above a pyramid structure and a new governing body did not get past a vote from the top flight clubs, with St Mirren and Ross County opposed to the model.
SPL clubs gathered again on Monday to explore the possibility of adopting some elements of the blueprint but, again, no consensus was reached.
The top flight teams are to meet next week to discuss the possible introduction of play-offs for next season but they will now have this letter to mull over.
County and St Mirren have previously voiced opposition to any SPL2, saying that a compromise had to be reached involving all 42 professional clubs.


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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #12 on: May 3, 2013, 04:43:43 pm »
Just thought i'd say, i was focusing more on the smaller leagues of the world/europe like the Welsh league, a league which is ranked 48th in europe (out of 53)

How can the likes of Moldova and Bosnia (similar population to Wales) be so much higher in the UEFA Coefficient?

Because their three biggest clubs don't piss off to play in neighbouring associations' leagues, perhaps?

Offline LiamG

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #13 on: May 4, 2013, 10:42:12 am »
Do you think a move to summer football would work?

Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #14 on: May 4, 2013, 11:28:43 pm »
Do you think a move to summer football would work?
It may attract the Cardiff and Swansea fans to the grounds for a day out, but it wouldn't be sustained numbers and it's not something you could rely on year upon year. I'm afraid that with England being your neighbour and Cardiff and Swansea now both in the PL, there's very little that's attractive about going to watch the Welsh league. It needs restructuring. Smaller, purpose built stadiums, fan-involvement and a focus on coaching young players.
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Offline LiamG

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2013, 09:28:58 am »
but surely if there was summer football it wouldn't clash so much with the PL etc? it's unbelievable how many football fans there are in north wales that all support Everton,Liverpool and united

they might support their local clubs much more with no pl being played the same time?

Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2013, 03:10:21 pm »
All of the blueshite are from North Wales mate. Goodison would only get about 20,000 without them. It is a shame they don't support their local teams more.
“Seeing these smiling faces is the greatest pleasure. They have been magnificent all season. They have been our 12th man. I have always said our fans are the best in England. Now I know they are the best in Europe too.” Rafa Benitez

Offline LiamG

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2013, 08:14:33 pm »
There is probably more Liverpool fans than blueshite fans around where i live to be honest lol


Offline Dani LFC

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #18 on: June 4, 2013, 11:01:02 am »

A football equivalent of the Pro12/Magners/Celtic league might be an interesting solution. Clubs from Scotland, Ireland, Wales and Northern Ireland joining into one professional league. You might also add some B-teams from the top English clubs, since English FA would never accept the Spanish/German model of B-teams competing in the league system.

Offline GBF

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #19 on: June 4, 2013, 11:18:43 am »
A football equivalent of the Pro12/Magners/Celtic league might be an interesting solution. Clubs from Scotland, Ireland, Wales and Northern Ireland joining into one professional league. You might also add some B-teams from the top English clubs, since English FA would never accept the Spanish/German model of B-teams competing in the league system.


if the league does not subsidise transport, a lot of those small teams would not even afford the bus fare from south of england to north of scotland to play a game on a fairly regular basis.  Switching to summer and having winners of each zones/leagues (like Conference league - south, north, east, west, N.I and Scotland) to play a play off style game in a well known stadium nearer to them may get some interest. 

if there is no intensive (££), there wont be interest and these games wont attract PL type of crowds unless the winner get automatic promotion to the professional league.
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #20 on: June 4, 2013, 11:25:01 am »
A football equivalent of the Pro12/Magners/Celtic league might be an interesting solution. Clubs from Scotland, Ireland, Wales and Northern Ireland joining into one professional league. You might also add some B-teams from the top English clubs, since English FA would never accept the Spanish/German model of B-teams competing in the league system.

Scottish clubs struggle enough as it is. Do you really think they'd be able to sustain travelling to Ireland or Wales every couple of weeks, and the costs they'd incur? No chance.

TNS are the biggest club in the Welsh League. They get about 500 average attendance, maybe even less. Charge £8 for a ticket, or £90 for a season ticket. Do you genuinely believe they'd be able to sustain a flight to Ireland or Scotland every few weeks? Their gate receipts for one game would barely cover the costs of the flights alone. Bringing in £4000-£5000 from gate receipts isn't even skimming the surface of what they'd need.

Maybe an Anglo-Scottish Cup or something might get a bit of interest, but a Welsh/Irish/Scottish football league wouldn't be sustainable.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Dani LFC

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #21 on: June 4, 2013, 11:49:46 am »

Clubs from the Scottish Premier League are not that poor. There are some decent sized clubs in the League of Ireland, like Shamrock Rovers and Shelbourne. The Welsh Premier League might not have clubs of that size, apart from TNS, but they have clubs like Wrexham and Newport participating in the English league system that might be interested in participating in such a multinational league. The Northern Irish Premier League has clubs like Linfield and Glentoran.

When you add the B-teams of the top English clubs like LFC, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City and Tottenham into this competition, you get a respectable league with a very solid quality level, some very solid fan base, and therefore some solid interest from the sponsors. By the way, I know that the traditionalists will reject this idea without even thinking about it, but when you see that the rugby union clubs from these countries have benefited hugely from the multinational league, it is worth considering.
« Last Edit: June 4, 2013, 11:51:34 am by Dani LFC »

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #22 on: June 4, 2013, 12:18:51 pm »
No you're not listening (well, reading).

It wouldn't be sustainable. There wouldn't be sufficient interest to invest the money. And what would be the point in English sides including B teams? It wouldn't make any sense, playing against Welsh, Irish and Scottish clubs. How is that going to benefit them, exactly? The quality of the Welsh Premier is probably on a par with our U21s or Next-Gen series.

Someone had the same bright idea with the Nations Cup, and what a flop that was.

The quality of these leagues aren't low because they cant test themselves against similarly poor teams from Ireland and Wales. The quality is low because they're not producing anywhere near the amount of good footballers, and those that they do produce tend to get picked up by English clubs.

And again, Scottish clubs are pretty poor financially. They just are. Take away Celtic and the amount of people who watch the Scottish Premier isn't that much better than the amount of people who watch the Blue Square Premier.

The 3rd best team in Scotland, St Johnstone, has a very similar average attendance to the 113th best team in England, Stockport. Give them a game against TNS and I cant imagine the people will flock.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Dani LFC

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #23 on: June 4, 2013, 01:03:41 pm »
No you're not listening (well, reading).

It wouldn't be sustainable. There wouldn't be sufficient interest to invest the money. And what would be the point in English sides including B teams? It wouldn't make any sense, playing against Welsh, Irish and Scottish clubs. How is that going to benefit them, exactly? The quality of the Welsh Premier is probably on a par with our U21s or Next-Gen series.

It would benefit them in the same way that it benefits Bayern, Barca, Real Madrid or Borussia Dortmund.

The quality of these leagues aren't low because they cant test themselves against similarly poor teams from Ireland and Wales. The quality is low because they're not producing anywhere near the amount of good footballers, and those that they do produce tend to get picked up by English clubs.

Scotland: 5.3 million
Ireland: 4.6 million
Wales: 3.1 million
N.Ireland: 1.8 million

Together: 14.8 million

A little less population than Holland, and more population than Belgium, Greece or Portugal. A bigger market guarantees bigger interest from the sponsors and more money, and therefore an increased financial ability for the Scottish, Irish, Welsh and Northern Irish clubs to keep their young players for longer, instead of them going to the League One, League Two or Conference clubs. By the way, what exactly is the point of the 4th and 5th tier of professional football in England?

And again, Scottish clubs are pretty poor financially. They just are. Take away Celtic and the amount of people who watch the Scottish Premier isn't that much better than the amount of people who watch the Blue Square Premier.

The 3rd best team in Scotland, St Johnstone, has a very similar average attendance to the 113th best team in England, Stockport. Give them a game against TNS and I cant imagine the people will flock.

This only shows how the modern day fans lack the perspective. St. Johnstone might have the 3rd best team in Scotland this season, and they have finished 3rd in the league, but they are definitely not the 3rd biggest club in Scotland, having an average attendance of 3,712 this season. The likes of Hearts (13,163), Hibernian (10,489) and Aberdeen (9,610) have a much bigger fan base, and a much bigger tradition. Talking about Scottish clubs, I think that Rangers would absolutely love the idea of a multinational league.

Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #24 on: June 4, 2013, 01:17:09 pm »
In all fairness Lobo, whilst you're right that it wouldn't be sustainable as is, Dani's point isn't a bad idea. You've got to look at the possibilities alongside the current realities. Yes the smaller Irish and Welsh sides couldn't afford it, but perhaps as soon as a Man Utd and Liverpool B side are thrown in their, it instantly incentivises things a lot more, although their would have to be a socialist approach to the division of wealth in the league. Sponsors would attain interest and back it I reckon, purely off the back of some top English sides and good young players being involved. The final hurdle then is the suggestion that the quality wouldn't be good enough for it to be worth sending a B-Team to compete. I suppose that has to be a gut call. Both Shamrock Rovers and TNS have had relative success in Europe (just getting there and few a Q Round or two) so you could suggest they may be up to it.

When you look at the actual problems surrounding the establishing of such a league, I believe it would be impossible, unless you could get Celtic and Rangers on board (and Celtic would probably sneer at playing B-Teams and attempt to use it as leverage to join the PL). There are too many problems facing such a league, however altruistic and pleasing an idea it is. I'm for it, but it doesn't look like it's at all sustainable or possible.

Here's your potentially sustainable league line-up (And even that is questionable) - Liverpool B, Everton B, Man City B, Man Utd B, TNS, Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Dundee United, Inverness Caledonian Thistle, Shamrock Rovers, Aberdeen, Linfield, Glentoran, Cardiff B, Swansea B, Wrexham. Obviously, some of these sides wouldn't want to compete or put out a B team, due to the inclement financial problems. I've also included Scottish clubs based on size rather than finish, which is why the likes of Aberdeen and Hearts are considered. I believe there's enough cumulative fans of those clubs to make a success of it. It'd certainly be a ground breaking system and would draw decent interest and sponsorship. I know I'd follow our B team and even attend as many games as I could.

I've simply tried to present and extremely optimistic roster that would constitute a sustainable model. All in all, it's probably too problematic, costly and complicated to get such a thing off the ground, but I've no doubt it would be supported better than the SPL or Welsh and Irish leagues, and players of the PL B teams would get a taste of real-game pressure and crowd atmosphere. I definitely think LFC and the Manc clubs could get crowds of 15,000 or more to games.
It's a good debate that I like a lot.
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Offline TheShanklyGates

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #25 on: June 4, 2013, 01:17:23 pm »
The standard of the Welsh Prem is more akin to Conference level (lower League 2 at a push for the top two or three teams) - how would fixtures against this level of opposition benefit Premier League B teams?

And looking at population figures is far too simplistic. Whilst its not completely irrelevent in determining how many quality footballers a nation can produce, it is only one of a great number of factors. India, to use a crude example, has a billion people yet hasn't produced a single player of Premier League standard. As PoP said earlier in the thread, the number and quality of coaches is far more important to bringing through talented young players.

By the way, what exactly is the point of the 4th and 5th tier of professional football in England?

Clubs at that level often form an important part of the fabric of their respective communities and have a dedicated core of supporters, just because they aren't likely to produce footballers of an international standard does not mean there is no place for them in English football, far from it.
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #26 on: June 4, 2013, 01:31:37 pm »
It would benefit them in the same way that it benefits Bayern, Barca, Real Madrid or Borussia Dortmund.

Well no, because they'd be playing Scottish, Welsh and Irish teams. Barca don't have a B team in the San Marino league. Bayern don't have a B team in the Polish 2nd division.

Quote
Scotland: 5.3 million
Ireland: 4.6 million
Wales: 3.1 million
N.Ireland: 1.8 million

Together: 14.8 million

A little less population than Holland, and more population than Belgium, Greece or Portugal. A bigger market guarantees bigger interest from the sponsors and more money, and therefore an increased financial ability for the Scottish, Irish, Welsh and Northern Irish clubs to keep their young players for longer, instead of them going to the League One, League Two or Conference clubs. By the way, what exactly is the point of the 4th and 5th tier of professional football in England?

Sorry, what exactly do you think is going to attract sponsors? Irish and Welsh clubs? The two clubs in the whole Welsh, Scottish and Irish set up that would bring interest are the two who wouldn't be remotely interested.

And again, the vast majority couldn't afford it. How much do you think it costs to go to Ireland, get a hotel, training pitch, equipment, insurance etc, for forty odd people? Its not really that simple to just say 'Ok you're getting 600 people a match in Wales, now you'll be travelling to Scotland and Ireland every three weeks'. You'd get half of the teams going bust in the first season. Unless someone came in and offered megabucks to sponsor it.....but why would they?

People don't care because the quality is awful, that's what you seem to be missing. Grouping lots of poor sides together wont make the quality any better, nor the players involved.

What is the point of the 4th and 5th tier in England?  ??? League doesn't really matter, its just a tiered system. What a strange question. Whats the point of any football?

Quote
This only shows how the modern day fans lack the perspective. St. Johnstone might have the 3rd best team in Scotland this season, and they have finished 3rd in the league, but they are definitely not the 3rd biggest club in Scotland, having an average attendance of 3,712 this season. The likes of Hearts (13,163), Hibernian (10,489) and Aberdeen (9,610) have a much bigger fan base, and a much bigger tradition. Talking about Scottish clubs, I think that Rangers would absolutely love the idea of a multinational league.

Celtic and Rangers would fucking hate the idea of the multi-national league you're talking about. You tell Celtic to share their earnings with teams like Shamrock Rovers or TNS and they'll laugh you out of whatever building you happen to be in when you ask them.

Hearts are a big club....? Which is why they've spent years teetering on the edge of administration, frequently being unable to pay their players. Without travelling over to Ireland every few weeks....

Aberdeen and Hibs? Same sort of attendances as Coventry, Swindon and the MK Dons. Just above half of what Sheffield United get.

How many League One and Two games do you think get shown, live? I think Championship clubs get about £2.3 million a year from the league/TV money.

Just what is this defining attraction that will get sponsors to pay the sort of money required to make this feasible? I'm intrigued. They don't care about the leagues individually, they don't care about the best players from those countries competing in the Nations Cup. So what exactly is this USP? What will make people flock to watch Bangor Vs Cork City?
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #27 on: June 4, 2013, 01:40:23 pm »
And I'm not knocking these teams by the way, but they get tiny attendances for a reason.

Aberdeen charge nearly £30 for a ticket. Over £400 for a season ticket. You could get four season tickets at the best side in Europe for £16 more.

Bring the ticket prices down, get attendances up, aim for a specific style of football and better coaches. There isnt some trick involved, you don't have to come up with some zany, novelty plan to improve football.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Dani LFC

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #28 on: June 4, 2013, 01:56:58 pm »
In all fairness Lobo, whilst you're right that it wouldn't be sustainable as is, Dani's point isn't a bad idea. You've got to look at the possibilities alongside the current realities. Yes the smaller Irish and Welsh sides couldn't afford it, but perhaps as soon as a Man Utd and Liverpool B side are thrown in their, it instantly incentivises things a lot more, although their would have to be a socialist approach to the division of wealth in the league. Sponsors would attain interest and back it I reckon, purely off the back of some top English sides and good young players being involved. The final hurdle then is the suggestion that the quality wouldn't be good enough for it to be worth sending a B-Team to compete. I suppose that has to be a gut call. Both Shamrock Rovers and TNS have had relative success in Europe (just getting there and few a Q Round or two) so you could suggest they may be up to it.

When you look at the actual problems surrounding the establishing of such a league, I believe it would be impossible, unless you could get Celtic and Rangers on board (and Celtic would probably sneer at playing B-Teams and attempt to use it as leverage to join the PL). There are too many problems facing such a league, however altruistic and pleasing an idea it is. I'm for it, but it doesn't look like it's at all sustainable or possible.

Here's your potentially sustainable league line-up (And even that is questionable) - Liverpool B, Everton B, Man City B, Man Utd B, TNS, Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Dundee United, Inverness Caledonian Thistle, Shamrock Rovers, Aberdeen, Linfield, Glentoran, Cardiff B, Swansea B, Wrexham. Obviously, some of these sides wouldn't want to compete or put out a B team, due to the inclement financial problems. I've also included Scottish clubs based on size rather than finish, which is why the likes of Aberdeen and Hearts are considered. I believe there's enough cumulative fans of those clubs to make a success of it. It'd certainly be a ground breaking system and would draw decent interest and sponsorship. I know I'd follow our B team and even attend as many games as I could.

I've simply tried to present and extremely optimistic roster that would constitute a sustainable model. All in all, it's probably too problematic, costly and complicated to get such a thing off the ground, but I've no doubt it would be supported better than the SPL or Welsh and Irish leagues, and players of the PL B teams would get a taste of real-game pressure and crowd atmosphere. I definitely think LFC and the Manc clubs could get crowds of 15,000 or more to games.
It's a good debate that I like a lot.

Mate, I am glad that you like the idea.

Yes, there are certainly obstacles to the implementation of such a radical idea, but if the big English clubs back it (and they would have every interest to do it), it might not be as impossible as some people think. One of the positive factors is that the distances in UK/Ireland are not that big, and that a well developed airline traffic will be very helpful.



I like your idea about the equal share of the TV and sponsorship money, and I can see the broadcasting companies being interested in obtaining the TV rights, as well as many companies that usually target the overall UK/Ireland market being interested in sponsoring the league.

I think that League One, League Two and Conference will suffer from the creation of such an Scottish/Irish/Welsh/Northern Irish/English(B) league, but the overall benefits will be much bigger, especially in terms of player development, and the improvement of the quality of football in the UK/Ireland.

As for the infrastructure, I don't think that it would represent any problem. For example, we have already played our NextGen/Reserves matches at the Langtree Park (18,000), and I think that such venues would be perfect for such a league.
« Last Edit: June 4, 2013, 01:58:54 pm by Dani LFC »

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #29 on: June 4, 2013, 02:11:43 pm »
I like your idea about the equal share of the TV and sponsorship money, and I can see the broadcasting companies being interested in obtaining the TV rights, as well as many companies that usually target the overall UK/Ireland market being interested in sponsoring the league.

I think that League One, League Two and Conference will suffer from the creation of such an Scottish/Irish/Welsh/Northern Irish/English(B) league, but the overall benefits will be much bigger, especially in terms of player development, and the improvement of the quality of football in the UK/Ireland.

Goodness me, please try to read what you're writing mate. Honestly.

League One, Two and the Conference would suffer.....so why on earth wouldn't they just say 'Ok sorry actually, you can have your B teams in the English system'? And all of a sudden pop, there goes the one thing sponsors would want.

You quite like the idea of English sides having what Spanish and Germany sides have with their B teams. We get that. But you're just coming up with preposterous ideas to try and squeeze them in, somewhere.

More to the point. Since we're on a Liverpool site we'll use that as an example. In the last two seasons we've bought through Sterling, Shelvey, Suso, Wisdom, Ibe, Robinson, Flanagan, Morgan, Yesil, Sinclair and Coady from our youth/reserve team. Testing themselves against a similar age group. What makes you think we'd do better with them playing poor Irish players instead?

Companies don't sponsor things just for shits and giggles. They want exposure. Morrisons sponsor Britains Got Talent because people, inexplicably, watch it. No-one would pay big money to sponsor this, because it would be shit and no-one would watch it. Which is more than backed up by the awful attendances the clubs involved bring in.

Ok Dani, you're running with this idea. The PL clubs have said no, so you've got the Welsh, Scottish and Irish clubs. You're armed with the figures, attendances etc. You've got a major sponsor, the heads of the Welsh, Irish and Scottish FA in front of you and also the guy who chooses the matches Sky show. Much like Dragons Den.

Sell it to them. Go!
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Dani LFC

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #30 on: June 4, 2013, 02:36:29 pm »
More to the point. Since we're on a Liverpool site we'll use that as an example. In the last two seasons we've bought through Sterling, Shelvey, Suso, Wisdom, Ibe, Robinson, Flanagan, Morgan, Yesil, Sinclair and Coady from our youth/reserve team. Testing themselves against a similar age group. What makes you think we'd do better with them playing poor Irish players instead?

To be honest, playing every week against Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen, on top of playing against Man Utd B, Arsenal B, Chelsea B, Man City B and Tottenham B, would benefit them hugely. Of course, they would also need to play against the likes of Shamrock Rovers, Shelbourne, Wrexham, Newport, Linfield and Glentoran, but they have been playing against them regularly in the pre-season already, so I don't think that it would represent a problem.

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #31 on: June 4, 2013, 02:57:17 pm »
To be honest, playing every week against Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen, on top of playing against Man Utd B, Arsenal B, Chelsea B, Man City B and Tottenham B, would benefit them hugely. Of course, they would also need to play against the likes of Shamrock Rovers, Shelbourne, Wrexham, Newport, Linfield and Glentoran, but they have been playing against them regularly in the pre-season already, so I don't think that it would represent a problem.

They already play against Man Utd B, Arsenal B, Chelsea B, Man City B and Spurs B every week. Plus Inter B, Dortmund B, Rosenburg B and Sporting B.

Rangers and Celtic like I say would want no part of it. They want into the Premier League as it is because they know they're too big for the Scottish League as it stands. Honestly Dani, just think about it. Just think. Why would they then decide to take part in a league with even smaller clubs? Moreover, do you think a club of Celtics stature would accept being deemed as equal to Spurs B team? Really? Do you know how big Celtic are....?

Oh and Rangers Vs Irish clubs. That'd be fun too.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Dani LFC

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #32 on: June 4, 2013, 03:14:47 pm »
They already play against Man Utd B, Arsenal B, Chelsea B, Man City B and Spurs B every week. Plus Inter B, Dortmund B, Rosenburg B and Sporting B.

If you are referring to the Professional Development League 1, then you are wrong, since many of the best young players at the big English clubs are usually out on loan, with many of them playing in other countries. If you are referring to the NextGen Series, then you are wrong again, because it is an Under-19 competition.

I see that you don't quite understand the concept of the B-teams. They are teams like any other senior teams, and only for development purposes, the big clubs rarely use players over 22-23 on their B-teams. By the way, the concept of the B-teams has very little in common with the Reserves concept that you are constantly talking about.

Rangers and Celtic like I say would want no part of it. They want into the Premier League as it is because they know they're too big for the Scottish League as it stands. Honestly Dani, just think about it. Just think. Why would they then decide to take part in a league with even smaller clubs? Moreover, do you think a club of Celtics stature would accept being deemed as equal to Spurs B team? Really? Do you know how big Celtic are....?

Mate, you still don't get it, don't you? The Scottish/Irish/Welsh/Northern Irish/English(B) league will be bigger than the Scottish Premier League. Not only because the countries involved will have 3 times bigger population than Scotland (and therefore a 3 times bigger market), but also because of the involvement of the big English clubs, with their talented young players, and their share of the English market. If Celtic and Rangers want to have any hope of joining the English Premier League one day, the international league that I am suggesting would be the perfect stepping stone for them.

Oh and Rangers Vs Irish clubs. That'd be fun too.

Sorry, but I refuse to be dragged into that sectarian nonsense.
« Last Edit: June 4, 2013, 03:22:44 pm by Dani LFC »

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #33 on: June 4, 2013, 03:32:02 pm »
Scottish clubs struggle enough as it is. Do you really think they'd be able to sustain travelling to Ireland or Wales every couple of weeks, and the costs they'd incur? No chance.

TNS are the biggest club in the Welsh League. They get about 500 average attendance, maybe even less. Charge £8 for a ticket, or £90 for a season ticket. Do you genuinely believe they'd be able to sustain a flight to Ireland or Scotland every few weeks? Their gate receipts for one game would barely cover the costs of the flights alone. Bringing in £4000-£5000 from gate receipts isn't even skimming the surface of what they'd need.

Maybe an Anglo-Scottish Cup or something might get a bit of interest, but a Welsh/Irish/Scottish football league wouldn't be sustainable.

The additional problem is that in order to have a national team enter into UEFA and FIFA competition at the highest level, you have to have a national league. Merging the leagues would prevent the national teams from entering competitions, unless they got a special dispensation from UEFA/FIFA.

It might be an idea to have a mini-Champion's league for countries below a certain co-efficient - or more specifically, bring back the Intertoto Cup but only for leagues that rarely get past the qualifying rounds in Europe. The prize for winning it is entry into the Europa league in the last qualifying round before the group stages. But that's another issue. In terms of developing smaller leagues, the answer is still quality coaching. More coaches producing more players leads to a critical mass where the players who don't get picked up by English teams will stay with local teams, raising the level of their football, and maybe there will be one breakout team that gets into Europe and does well, and this encourages the others to further support the development of young players, so that the league overall becomes stronger, talent-wise. Or the Dutch model, to be more precise :D
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #34 on: June 4, 2013, 03:36:48 pm »
Ahh bored  ;D

Your whole argument is based on English sides putting B teams in, that's it. And English sides wouldn't do it, because it wouldn't make any sense for them to do so. The benefits wouldn't be big enough. I know all the arguments for having B teams in the English system, that's fine. But to create a Irish/Welsh/Scottish league based solely on English clubs entering B teams is just nonsensical. It really, really is. Never mind ignoring all the other factors that you're ignoring.

A three times bigger market? Try an even more diluted market.

The leagues will improve by following the lead of other successful leagues. Not creating a novelty league. It's not done anywhere else because it simply wouldn't work, and yet you think it would work for three of the poorest leagues in Europe.....

I'll leave you with that one mate. You can tell me the benefits of B Teams if you like.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Lucas DuoFlush

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #35 on: June 4, 2013, 03:49:27 pm »
All the leagues should just be merged. Its a silly idea to have separate ones apart from possibly NI for travelling reasons. Is there any other state in the world that has independent regional leagues in the same manner?
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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #36 on: June 4, 2013, 04:11:41 pm »
All the leagues should just be merged. Its a silly idea to have separate ones apart from possibly NI for travelling reasons. Is there any other state in the world that has independent regional leagues in the same manner?

They're separate countries. There are areas in Europe with much more tightly bunched nations, like Croatia/Montengro/Bosnia/Serbia/Albania/Macedonia. We don't compete internationally as the United Kingdom, we don't share European places amongst the United Kingdom. Merge them and you essentially just put Celtic and eventually Rangers in the Premier League and the rest of the sides suffer as much as they do anyway.

They've always been separate leagues. This sudden clamour for a joint league is in the faint hope that it'd reinvigorate the interest in teams from these countries, without anything to base that upon.

People generally don't watch Scottish football because the players generally aren't particularly good. People generally don't watch Irish and Welsh football for the same reasons. So on what planet does merging them suddenly make it an attractive proposition? A broadcaster is going to pay the sort of money needed to get it off the ground, on the basis of them broadcasting games with 1,200 or so attendances most weeks? Get real. It'd be Celtic every week, and it'd become exactly the same as the Scottish league just with Welsh and Irish teams also completely incapable of competing.

If you want to raise interest in these leagues, without actually just improving coaching and the quality of player, then you need to do it gradually. A British Cup competition, something like that. Do it as part of pre-season or something. Rather than entering B teams in Scotland, let Celtic, Aberdeen, whoever else enter their U21s in our U21 league.

But just grouping lots of poor teams from different countries in the same league and hoping that people will be interested because they're from a different country is a complete non-starter, thankfully.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline campioni

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #37 on: June 4, 2013, 04:19:48 pm »
If you are referring to the Professional Development League 1, then you are wrong, since many of the best young players at the big English clubs are usually out on loan, with many of them playing in other countries. If you are referring to the NextGen Series, then you are wrong again, because it is an Under-19 competition.

I see that you don't quite understand the concept of the B-teams. They are teams like any other senior teams, and only for development purposes, the big clubs rarely use players over 22-23 on their B-teams. By the way, the concept of the B-teams has very little in common with the Reserves concept that you are constantly talking about.

Mate, you still don't get it, don't you? The Scottish/Irish/Welsh/Northern Irish/English(B) league will be bigger than the Scottish Premier League. Not only because the countries involved will have 3 times bigger population than Scotland (and therefore a 3 times bigger market), but also because of the involvement of the big English clubs, with their talented young players, and their share of the English market. If Celtic and Rangers want to have any hope of joining the English Premier League one day, the international league that I am suggesting would be the perfect stepping stone for them.

Sorry, but I refuse to be dragged into that sectarian nonsense.


A league bigger than the SPL. What has that got to do with the OP?! You're talking about taking the few big clubs from each league and forming a super league leaving the smaller clubs behind, when the OP asked what can be done to improve those leagues not make them worse.

From an Irish league perspective the only club that could possibly be involved in that super league you're talking about would be linfield. And that is solely because they have an agreement with the Irish FA which sees them receive large amounts of gate receipts from the national teams home matches for using linfields Windsor Park. But even then I think linfield would struggle to cope with the logistics of travelling across the water every other week. Linfield only have a few full time players.

You should have a look at the Setanta Cup. It was an all-Ireland cup competition between the top sides in the Irish League and the League of Ireland. It seemed to be successful in the first few years but the novelty has worn off, Setanta have now pulled the funding from it and it doesn't look like it will be played next season.

Nearly all Irish league players are amateurs or semi-pro. For a belfast side having to travel 6 hours to cork on a Monday night to play a Setanta cup game and back on the same night to be in for work the next day was a massive pain in the arse. Same goes for fans which meant that attendances weren't great. And that was just on the island of Ireland. Can you really see these clubs and their fans being able to fulfil fixtures across the uk on a regular basis?!

Also the standard of football in the Irish league is below league standard in England and I'm sure the welsh league is the same from what I've heard. The league of Ireland is slightly higher standard but I'd say those sides would still be no better than bottom half of league 2 teams. Why would tv companies and businesses want to invest money in that?

Offline Lucas DuoFlush

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #38 on: June 4, 2013, 04:26:38 pm »
But Swansea and Cardiff are clearly benefiting enormously from being part of a English-Welsh league, aren't they? Why not include Scottish and Welsh teams? There is nothing to lose, and there will be increased competitiveness from being part of a very strong league system. Attendances would certainly be increased with FA cup fixtures, if Hearts for example were playing Chelsea in the FA cup at home they would get massive attendances. If you include the 'rivalry' between Scotland and England, when Scottish teams played English ones there would be increased attendances just for the fact they were playing the English teams surely? The same could be said for Welsh teams.

I object mainly to the pointless divisions in Britain both in football and politically. Its been a unified state for hundreds of years and people still create friction over utterly pointless and irrelevant historical grievances. I couldn't care less about being 'English' and equally people shouldn't care about being 'Welsh' or 'Scottish'. Completely pointless terms that do nothing to help the world or the state.
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?
« Reply #39 on: June 4, 2013, 04:35:58 pm »
But Swansea and Cardiff are clearly benefiting enormously from being part of a English-Welsh league, aren't they? Why not include Scottish and Welsh teams? There is nothing to lose, and there will be increased competitiveness from being part of a very strong league system. Attendances would certainly be increased with FA cup fixtures, if Hearts for example were playing Chelsea in the FA cup at home they would get massive attendances. If you include the 'rivalry' between Scotland and England, when Scottish teams played English ones there would be increased attendances just for the fact they were playing the English teams surely? The same could be said for Welsh teams.

Cardiff and Swansea have been a part of the English league system for nearly a century.

As has been mentioned, many Welsh sides in the Welsh league are amateur or semi-pro. I think only two are fully professional.

There are so, so many issues that would be very difficult to sort out. Its not a goer. If it was, it'd have been done already.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.