Author Topic: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1  (Read 12668 times)

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« on: August 4, 2012, 04:26:17 am »
First official game of the season so time to bust out the round table thread.

To be honest it wasn't pretty.  2 seconds of good football made up of the time it took Downing to swing his left peg (one hell of a cracking shot), 5,398 seconds of absolute dross. Rodgers must have been ripping his hair out because I couldn't see any effort to execute his passing game plan. The pitch was atrocious, heat apparently oppressive and we were presumably tired from a travel and a tough preseason, the worst for me though was we were so static.  So much of Rodgers style revolves around constantly making yourself available and passing the opposition off the pitch. It didn't happen and we were often caught on the ball in our own half.

It was reminiscent of Hodgeson. Pinching an ugly European away win against the "formidible" Gomel. It will surely improve, it has to improve but for now pinching an ugly win while we get though preseason is all we need.

Positives:
- Lucas get more time under his belt
- Sterling look the part
- The workrate of Borini.
- Carragher was probably MOTM for me
- Downing scored!


Negatives:
- Generally, shit skills and caught dwelling on the ball
- Shit movement
- Lack of threat in the box
- Cole hamstring injury

Tactically:
It was a Rodgers 4-3-3 with mostly inverted wide player (occasionally swaped) lacked the pressing and high tempo passing (Presumably due to heat & heavy training load)
In possession our CB's split and DM came forward to collect while our fullbacks pushed forward.
Gerrard I felt was stepping on Spearing toes in the first half, rectified in the 2nd.

Not a lot to discuss though.
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline Saint Kopite

  • but Greavesie's in the Main Stand
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,679
  • “By what right does the wolf judge the lion?”
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #1 on: August 4, 2012, 04:53:12 am »
Won't worry too much about the negatives. I think for the first couple of months, we have to ignore the negatives as there would be plenty. Positives for me are we won the game, kept a clean sheet and majority of our players got some much need minutes which would improve their fitness. The only issue I still have is the lack of a holding midfielder in the squad other than Lucas. Hopefully, Rodgers works on that.
A Liverbird upon my chest, we are the men of Shankly's best. A team that plays the Liverpool way, and wins the championship in May.

Offline Frizzo

  • Having a Bad Hair Life.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,919
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #2 on: August 4, 2012, 06:45:29 am »
Thought Carra was fantastic, even apart from the block he made. His positional sense is still fantastic, and did I even hear the commentator say he showed a good turn of speed at one point? Was harshly criticised a lot last season, particularly after RVP scored those ridiculous goals against us, and hopefully this game shows he still has a part to play.

It's hard to read too much into this game, however I was increasingly frustrated by the number of long balls over the top Gerrard, Henderson et al were playing. I know Rodgers says he has to adapt his game plan to suit the players he has, but I can't see him being too impressed with the number of times we threw possession away. Maybe the conditions had a little to do with that, I don't know.

Good to see Borini working so hard if the conditions were as oppressive as has been reported. Strikes me as a very dedicated and hard working young lad.

Oh, and get in! Great hit Stewie!

Offline Upinsmoke

  • Is a grump, get used to it.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,196
Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #3 on: August 4, 2012, 07:08:39 am »
Not too arsed as long as we won, gotta be honest. Out of all the players who looked the most comfortable it was probably carragher, so fair play to him.

I think it was just a combination of things that led to the poor performance. I honestly think a couple of players showed a lack of willingness and also desire to play the way Rodgers wants but a lack of effort in general. We looked better after half time and grew into the game but we rode our luck far too much. Not gonna focus too much on the negatives though...

Positives were everybody getting more minutes, sterling playing in a different environment, lucas getting some time and obviously the win which puts us in a better position for the return leg.


Offline OrangeMochaFraps

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,024
  • Interesting. No, wait, the other thing: tedious.
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #4 on: August 4, 2012, 07:13:19 am »
Hard to really take much away from this match.

It was essentially our 4th preseason game, and the 2nd for most of our key players.

Offline Passmaster Molby

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,114
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #5 on: August 4, 2012, 07:20:06 am »
For me the key in this game was Gerrard sitting too deep first half and spraying long passes too often. Moving him forward second half meant we kept the ball better, the midfield linked up with the forwards much better and we generally looked better balanced.

Each game will be a learning curve for Rodgers to see his players and how they react in match situations as well as for the players to take on board instructions that probably contradict what they have been told for most of their careers. I fully expect us to see a much more definitive team shape and expect the style of play to improve as each match goes by. Very good result considering the fitness gap between sides and the new ideas which had to be taken on board.

Offline lachesis

  • RAWK Scribe
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,046
  • МАРКСИСТ
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #6 on: August 4, 2012, 08:52:59 am »
Caught up on the preseason games the other day and watched Gomel and a few things have jumped out at me as Brendan is still implementing his ideas.

You cannot usually gauge much from preseason as it’s simply a fitness exercise. However we are at a stage where we, as a team have to undertake a massive transition. Whilst in the past this has centred mainly on the midfield area and higher we are now going right back to basics of defending. Using it as the building block for an entirely new way of playing.

Gomel was our first competitive game as the Europa League Qualifier and truth be told we didn’t look an impressive outfit in terms of finished product or a cohesive team. Having said that there are mitigating circumstances and signs of the transition that is being implemented.

The first major transition is the dissolving of the ‘flat’ back four. We are now seeing a more continental coached back unit as the basis of the back line – what is widely referred to as ‘the smiley face’ (not just because it resembles one but because it also puts one on the coach’s face!!).




This is in contrast to the ‘ambivalent face’ and ‘sad face’. The ambivalent face is basically a flat back four. You know it’s not great but it’s simple and you sort of accept the risks the system carries – a trade-off in other words. The sad face is something you don’t ever want to see as you are susceptible to balls through the centre backs leading straight through on goal.



Of course none of this is groundbreaking in terms of high level football but it is a shift from the last two seasons of tinkering with a flat back four. We can also see some of Brendan’s ideas already firmly established with the ‘W’ formation and the splitting centre backs with deep lying midfielder.



One other thing which I’ve noticed (and it may just be experimental) at this stage is swapping out offside as plan ‘A’ for support and contain tactics. There are subtle hints that this is the way we are going to be heading. Again this is a relatively continental idea that is just starting to gain traction in the grass roots coaching circles over here.

It requires a modern approach to the game. The tell tale signs of this are diagonal lines when the ball is out wide (usually the fullback looks slightly out of position as he has to be out of line to see past the other players)




Now to me this represents a completely different way to how we will defend. The diagonal line is a shift away from the straight line where the defender is constantly checking his shoulder and more concerned with stepping up at the right time. Using this line opens up the field and allows the defender to watch any runs being made at them especially on the far side.


So to sum up the Gomel game from a defensive point of view, I’d say the ideas were there, shape was generally fine with the ‘W’ and ‘triangle’, individual actions were OK but as a unit we struggled to back each other up.



Attacking wise we were a lot more disappointing, partly because of the lack of control in midfield, but we can dig a little deeper and find out why that is. We started with a triangle of Spearing with Henderson and Gerrard. Although the data is limited for this season we can have a look back at some games last season to see the trends in their passing.





Now you can argue nothing really jumps out at you from these stats and I would be inclined to agree. However picking up trends we can see a lot of the passes are lateral and down the line, pretty flat in other words. But to put this into context we can compare this to similar data for Swansea who were playing the type of football Brendan wanted.



There seems to be a lot more simple angled balls in the Swansea stats. Of course there is still flat angled balls as well but these appear less so. If we look at Henderson we can see most of his passes travel laterally rather than have much of an angle on (much more of his passes travel between 0-15 degrees rather than 30-60 degrees). And this was the thing that stood out most for me in the attacking third against Gomel (not just Henderson). Take a look at Gerrard here in this shot, he has a pass square and a pass down the line. Worse than this though, every other option bar one is sitting along the same line unsighted and obscured. They’ve effectively positioned themselves out of the play. I saw this numerous times during the play and it was really frustrating.


Rodgers system is specifically built around preventing situation like this, it is about creating (tri)angles for short sharp incisive passing. The ‘flat’ angle ball is only a get-out option. This is because a square pass allows the opponents to push out (support and contain) and force you back. Another example of this was seeing four attackers all in a straight line on multiple occasions.

This meant that basically there was no retention up front and no measured control or progressive possession in midfield. Surrendering possession here led to the defence being put under pressure whilst trying to adapt to a new system. Not to mention that we were already at a disadvantage regarding physical conditioning courtesy of Gomel being fifteen games into their season.

I feel we have a core of players that need to find new identities in this system. I also feel this system will ask a lot of players to make a step up in terms of quality and show their maximum potential.


Abridged article | Full article here...

Offline fredfrop

  • 19*
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,751
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #7 on: August 4, 2012, 09:06:17 am »
The only things I wanted from the match was not to lose and to see some hint of pass and move.  TBF there wasn't a huge amount of move, but at times a hint of what the passing between defence and attack could look like.

Around 65-80 mins there was a period of "resting with the ball", passes between GK, CBs and MF which had Gomel chasing around to no purpose at all.  What was surprising was the speed which that changed with one forward ball which found Henderson in space about 10m from the box, unfortunately his last pass to Borini was poor, but the transition from rotating the ball around to a great attacking position surprised me.  There were some occasions when Carra's last ball back forced Jones to boot it up, but with Agger, (Allen?) and Reina in place this kind of control could drive less disciplined teams to distraction.  I expect to see that kind of play increase and improve.
* * * * *

Offline Always_A_Red

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,479
  • The reds are coming up the hill boys
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #8 on: August 4, 2012, 09:20:20 am »
I feel we have a core of players that need to find new identities in this system. I also feel this system will ask a lot of players to make a step up in terms of quality and show their maximum potential.


Abridged article | Full article here...

Thank you for that analysis. Very interesting.
We’ll still finish in top four - and they won’t. You can quote me on this in May.

Offline SangPutride

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,143
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #9 on: August 4, 2012, 09:45:34 am »
We can also see some of Brendan’s ideas already firmly established with the ‘W’ formation and the splitting centre backs with deep lying midfielder.
I thought this was one of the major flaws in our game. We were missing a CB like Agger, a confident, ballplaying CB who can go forward and distribute the ball. Often you'd see Carra and Skrts not knowing what to do with the ball and just giving it to Spearing. This resulted in a very slow opening and thus no urgency going forward. Spearing often had to go very deep and pick up the ball from the back for, slowing down play even more. I really like to compare our play to Borussia Dortmund. Even though it's not strictly posession based, there are quite a few similarities. But there's much more urgency going forward, with Hummels distributing the ball from the back four. Someone like Agger would do this for us most of the times and imo we were missing him very much on thursday. Or, alternatively, Lucas playing in front of our back 4, as he has better vision, pass range and urgency than Spearing imo.
you wouldn't be saying that if it was posted by Sangrinho Putrinada of Argentina.

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,098
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #10 on: August 4, 2012, 09:55:29 am »
Lachesis......

That analysis was incredible.....

I've genuinely leaned a huge amount form that.... Really really informative and possibly one of the best posts I've ever read in the football forum.


Lots of us complain about punditry on the tv and this is the kind of analysis I expect.... We can get it on a fans website but not on the tv...why is this (barring Gary Neville actually)


Thankyou again, that was truely excellent.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline planet-terror

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,249
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #11 on: August 4, 2012, 10:16:50 am »
Lachesis,thanks for that post ,,very informative.


bollocks

Offline thew

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,069
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #12 on: August 4, 2012, 10:39:19 am »
thanks for the great post Lachesis - really interesting analysis

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #13 on: August 4, 2012, 10:42:20 am »
Great analysis. A couple of points, though, as I go through it. Generally, I think it's a good piece and sheds some light on vital components of Liverpool's play under Rodgers in the game.


Caught up on the preseason games the other day and watched Gomel and a few things have jumped out at me as Brendan is still implementing his ideas.

You cannot usually gauge much from preseason as it’s simply a fitness exercise. However we are at a stage where we, as a team have to undertake a massive transition. Whilst in the past this has centred mainly on the midfield area and higher we are now going right back to basics of defending. Using it as the building block for an entirely new way of playing.

Gomel was our first competitive game as the Europa League Qualifier and truth be told we didn’t look an impressive outfit in terms of finished product or a cohesive team. Having said that there are mitigating circumstances and signs of the transition that is being implemented.

The first major transition is the dissolving of the ‘flat’ back four. We are now seeing a more continental coached back unit as the basis of the back line – what is widely referred to as ‘the smiley face’ (not just because it resembles one but because it also puts one on the coach’s face!!).

I have to say I have never heard it called the "Smiley Face" in over a decade of coaching. I like it. It's usually/was once called the "cupped" back four because it was shaped like a cup. Generally, though, when talking about a flat back four, the maxim was always "A flat four is rarely flat"




This is in contrast to the ‘ambivalent face’ and ‘sad face’. The ambivalent face is basically a flat back four. You know it’s not great but it’s simple and you sort of accept the risks the system carries – a trade-off in other words. The sad face is something you don’t ever want to see as you are susceptible to balls through the centre backs leading straight through on goal.

A true flat four is only ever flat at a kick-off. As the game progresses, the principles of pressure, cover and balance SHOULD cause the back four to be slanted when the ball is on one side, and cupped when in the middle. Of course, some teams, especially in England in the 80's, took the flat four to extremes and played an aggressive offside trap which required their four to be truly flat more often than not. I would be certain, though, that Rodgers will not be employing the trap, so the cup/smiley face is something we'll see with regularity.

As for the "sad face" - this is actually the correct shape when the ball is being driven at the defense through the central channel -


-------------X.--------------
-------------RD--------------
--------LD----------RB-------
----LB-----------------------
-----------------------------

This provides pressure at the ball, cover behind, and balance towards the back post and wide areas and is the correct shape IN THE MOMENT. As a starting shape, though, as you said, it is very weak in the central area




Of course none of this is groundbreaking in terms of high level football but it is a shift from the last two seasons of tinkering with a flat back four. We can also see some of Brendan’s ideas already firmly established with the ‘W’ formation and the splitting centre backs with deep lying midfielder.



One other thing which I’ve noticed (and it may just be experimental) at this stage is swapping out offside as plan ‘A’ for support and contain tactics. There are subtle hints that this is the way we are going to be heading. Again this is a relatively continental idea that is just starting to gain traction in the grass roots coaching circles over here.

I don't know about that. Support and contain was the watchword of Houllier's defenses, and to an extent, Hodgson's too. Houllier's team was almost all 1st and 3rd defender, pressuring and maintaining balance without much in the way of aggressive cover positions - It was more important to step to the ball if you were the 1st defender, and track penetrating runs away from the ball if you were a 3rd defender. I think the degree to which we will do this under Rodgers, though, will be very, very noticeable

It requires a modern approach to the game. The tell tale signs of this are diagonal lines when the ball is out wide (usually the fullback looks slightly out of position as he has to be out of line to see past the other players)




Now to me this represents a completely different way to how we will defend. The diagonal line is a shift away from the straight line where the defender is constantly checking his shoulder and more concerned with stepping up at the right time. Using this line opens up the field and allows the defender to watch any runs being made at them especially on the far side.


So to sum up the Gomel game from a defensive point of view, I’d say the ideas were there, shape was generally fine with the ‘W’ and ‘triangle’, individual actions were OK but as a unit we struggled to back each other up.



Attacking wise we were a lot more disappointing, partly because of the lack of control in midfield, but we can dig a little deeper and find out why that is. We started with a triangle of Spearing with Henderson and Gerrard. Although the data is limited for this season we can have a look back at some games last season to see the trends in their passing.





Now you can argue nothing really jumps out at you from these stats and I would be inclined to agree. However picking up trends we can see a lot of the passes are lateral and down the line, pretty flat in other words. But to put this into context we can compare this to similar data for Swansea who were playing the type of football Brendan wanted.



There seems to be a lot more simple angled balls in the Swansea stats. Of course there is still flat angled balls as well but these appear less so. If we look at Henderson we can see most of his passes travel laterally rather than have much of an angle on (much more of his passes travel between 0-15 degrees rather than 30-60 degrees). And this was the thing that stood out most for me in the attacking third against Gomel (not just Henderson). Take a look at Gerrard here in this shot, he has a pass square and a pass down the line. Worse than this though, every other option bar one is sitting along the same line unsighted and obscured. They’ve effectively positioned themselves out of the play. I saw this numerous times during the play and it was really frustrating.

The issue though is that we can't get too wrapped up in the angles. They are important, but the two prime movers of attacking positons and the attacking phase are time and space. If you look at your picture, the lateral option for Gerrard is actually in a lot of space, so although he doesn't advance the ball in an attacking sense, for Rodgers' "Pass-Think" methodology, he is ideally placed to be the next pass in the phase, because he has time and space to make a better decision than the player down the line from Gerrard. Additionally, the player in midfield with his hand up (Henderson?) is actually in line with Gerrard and the ball and is open for a pass also. If he were to be the next link in the chain, the player at the bottom of the green line would then be the player to advance the play forward given how much time and space they have, and the unopposed channel they seem to have to work in. So angles are important, but in Rodgers' system, time and space are more important, and the player with both is the player least likely to lose the ball, so the objective is to always be seeking out this player. At some point in the possession phase, this player on ball will be in a position to cross, shoot, or play a through/direct ball to create an opportunity. When we look as fans at this Liverpool team play, these are the things to be aware of. As an example - and with no desire to change topic and turn it into a player thread - Carroll in the Spurs friendly, on 79 minutes, received the ball on the left wing with very little pressure on him. He turned to the inside and passed the ball to the ref, with no LFC players around, and it was cleanly and effortlessly intercepted by a Spurs player who passed back to his central defender in order to start a Spurs possession phase. This will be a BIG no-no for BR, for all players. If you have time and space, passes should be clean, decisive and intentional. Players who lose the ball cheaply when in time and space will not find favour in this system


Rodgers system is specifically built around preventing situation like this, it is about creating (tri)angles for short sharp incisive passing. The ‘flat’ angle ball is only a get-out option. This is because a square pass allows the opponents to push out (support and contain) and force you back. Another example of this was seeing four attackers all in a straight line on multiple occasions.

Correct, however - sometimes you want to provoke the other team to push out, in order to play in behind them: think of "park the bus" teams. In this sense, an intentional square pass is the key, but it's usually followed, almost always, by a back pass and forward pass into space combination. That's not what happened in this game, but we must take it into account in the future as Rodgers will be aware of using his system to attack bunker teams using combinations like that

This meant that basically there was no retention up front and no measured control or progressive possession in midfield. Surrendering possession here led to the defence being put under pressure whilst trying to adapt to a new system. Not to mention that we were already at a disadvantage regarding physical conditioning courtesy of Gomel being fifteen games into their season.

The retention was poor, for sure. It seems sometimes over this game and the friendlies that some players are slow to adapt to the new system. Ironically, the one player who has taken it to heart has been Carra. But certainly, a lot of players are going to have to step up their Game Intelligence if they want to get minutes under this manager, and doing what they've always done is not going to help them.

I feel we have a core of players that need to find new identities in this system. I also feel this system will ask a lot of players to make a step up in terms of quality and show their maximum potential.


Abridged article | Full article here...
Better looking than Samie.

Offline my usenme changed?

  • Self-appointed moderator for comic topics
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 909
  • RAWK Librarian
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #14 on: August 4, 2012, 10:44:37 am »
Very impressive analysis Lachesis, with the poor stream I had the other night it was difficult to spot all those points. Good job!
Mid-Ulster Kopite  ---  BELIEVER

                                              77 * 78 * 81 * 84 * 05 * 19
Follow me on Twitter for stuff about LFC and, er, Libraries. www.twitter.com/@cahalboyd

Offline God's Left Peg

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,804
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #15 on: August 4, 2012, 10:53:54 am »
thanks for the great post Lachesis - really interesting analysis

Yes it is posts like this that make RAWK what it is for fans who want more than the broad brush stroke analysis that the papers dole out.

Was going to post something myself (along the lines of a broad brush stroke analysis! :)) but clearly, there is no point now!
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That's how I see football, that's how I see life."

Offline [new username under construction]

  • Poster formerly know as shadowbane. Never lost his head whilst others panicked. Fucking kopite!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,359
  • Insert something awesome here!
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #16 on: August 4, 2012, 10:57:24 am »
I thought this was one of the major flaws in our game. We were missing a CB like Agger, a confident, ballplaying CB who can go forward and distribute the ball. Often you'd see Carra and Skrts not knowing what to do with the ball and just giving it to Spearing. This resulted in a very slow opening and thus no urgency going forward. Spearing often had to go very deep and pick up the ball from the back for, slowing down play even more. I really like to compare our play to Borussia Dortmund. Even though it's not strictly posession based, there are quite a few similarities. But there's much more urgency going forward, with Hummels distributing the ball from the back four. Someone like Agger would do this for us most of the times and imo we were missing him very much on thursday. Or, alternatively, Lucas playing in front of our back 4, as he has better vision, pass range and urgency than Spearing imo.

I've seen Coates take it out from the back a few times during the Olympics....i think this lad if given the chance will work well as that kind of defender. Overall we were a bit shit obviously but i think the signs were there...it shouldn't be too hard to click into place...unless Gerrard continues to play like he did :/

A few more signings and i think we'll be fine...I think with Rogers' tactics you get to really see who isn't good enough as opposed to others where faults can be covered up a bit easier. Any new players fitting his style will have to be good :)

Offline lachesis

  • RAWK Scribe
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,046
  • МАРКСИСТ
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #17 on: August 4, 2012, 11:04:39 am »
Cheers - as you can imagine it takes ages formatting pics and everything.


Great analysis. A couple of points, though, as I go through it.

As for the "sad face"........

It depends, ideally the midfield would be tracking the runner allowing the defender to drop with the players without the ball. I've diagrammed it on the site, there's just too much to fit on here and obviously you really need to demo it to properly get the idea across. In the example above either the rb should be dropped and LD/LB push up to create the diagonal. Or vice versa where the LD/LB drops and RB maintains position and LB. In your example as a 'transition' I agree and it's where I feel we really struggled the other night.

Again with support and contain it's difficult to explain succinctly without 'showing'. It's not so much tracking as dropping off to avoid the pass being made in the first place.

The issue about the passing I do disagree with though. To pass sideways you need to turn and make the pass and see the pass. In that shot if the receiving player is 3/4 yards ahead Gerrard just strokes the ball on. That movement allows the player in the centre to move 1 yard up and suddenly the pitch is a lot wider and Gerrard has a couple of clear options. As it was I think from memory that Gerrard had to check and then play it sideways at that stage of the play.

Regarding giving the other team space to play I agree and that's why (in my opinion) Rodgers 'high line' is not as aggressive as Boas', he keeps the defence slightly dropped off all the time specifically for this.

Offline loozy

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,444
  • Phil M's biggest female fan
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #18 on: August 4, 2012, 11:14:01 am »
lachesis, thanks for the analysis, great stuff  :wave

Offline Il Capitano

  • Forza Liverpool. This thing of ours...
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,199
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #19 on: August 4, 2012, 11:21:04 am »
Fantastic analysis, Lachesis.

Rodgers system is specifically built around preventing situation like this, it is about creating (tri)angles for short sharp incisive passing. The ‘flat’ angle ball is only a get-out option. This is because a square pass allows the opponents to push out (support and contain) and force you back. Another example of this was seeing four attackers all in a straight line on multiple occasions.

This meant that basically there was no retention up front and no measured control or progressive possession in midfield. Surrendering possession here led to the defence being put under pressure whilst trying to adapt to a new system. Not to mention that we were already at a disadvantage regarding physical conditioning courtesy of Gomel being fifteen games into their season.

I feel we have a core of players that need to find new identities in this system. I also feel this system will ask a lot of players to make a step up in terms of quality and show their maximum potential.

I was thinking along similar lines as this in the other Gomel match thread:

You're supposed to move the ball in triangles with the three midfielders, playing a tight-nit passing game in order to a) overcome the opposition two- or three-man midfield man-to-man, and b) work the ball into the space beyond them. Our midfield never even tried. The complete lack of adequate movement was dreadful. They didn't work together. They couldn't impose themselves on the game at all, and I thought Gerrard had one of his worst games in a long time. It's clear to me that there needs to be a fulcrum - a playmaker at the heart of possession - to work this kind of midfield off of, and Gerrard certainly isn't that player. Lucas looks the best fit out of all our available midfielders.

We need a midfield capable of retaining possession, because that is where the game is won and lost in such a system of play. At the moment, players aren't trusting the midfield with the ball and the midfield doesn't show for it properly, with the only thing resembling that is Gerrard or Spearing dropping so deep they're standing on Carragher's toes. Being able to play short passes around in the midfield three confidently and technically takes a lot of skill, especially when it is being throughly pressed by the opposition, but from what I saw our midfield never even tried. That makes me doubt our quality in that area for playing this brand of football, makes me doubt Gerrard's capacity for playing there (every pass being played forward forty yards for Borini is not the way to keep the ball) and makes me doubt whether Henderson has the confidence to step up without an adequate playmaker next to him dictating play. Time will tell.

Offline -Q-

  • What's the Q for? The workhouse for the poor and the gallows for the left.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,972
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #20 on: August 4, 2012, 11:27:35 am »
lachesis, thanks for the analysis, great stuff  :wave
Welcome to Liverpool Brendan Rodgers
Quote from: Brendan Rodgers
Liverpool Football Club is the heartland of football folklore...     Liverpool are one of the dynasties of the game...     I will fight for my life for the supporters and the people of this city

Offline Mutton Geoff

  • 'The Invigilator'
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,663
  • Life is a journey, not a destination.
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #21 on: August 4, 2012, 11:53:37 am »
usual sight of one team still slightly off the pace whilst the other ahead in fitness and games played, we cant really take much from it, Stevie was careless at times i dont like him in the CM role he needs to be up front or in the hole. Defensively chaotic and frankly lucky I know it was Carra's game but again defend to deep when he plays is it him or skrtel?

Plusses a goal for Downing and the win, but frankly we learnt nothing except the squad needs more depth and we are not ready for the prem yet which given the date is about right, also have to add i dont mind Brad in goal in games like this but not the prem!
Also i know he takes a lot of stick in here but i thought Jay had a decent game.
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline No666

  • Married to Macca.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,756
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #22 on: August 4, 2012, 12:00:39 pm »
Quote
The retention was poor, for sure. It seems sometimes over this game and the friendlies that some players are slow to adapt to the new system. Ironically, the one player who has taken it to heart has been Carra. But certainly, a lot of players are going to have to step up their Game Intelligence if they want to get minutes under this manager, and doing what they've always done is not going to help them.

Carragher has had most minutes with Rodgers and is intelligent so naturally he'll show an ability to adapt; whether that was sufficient going forward is another matter. Yorky made a good post on his tendencies in the post-match thread.

Online Stevo79

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 683
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #23 on: August 4, 2012, 02:15:59 pm »
With Gerrard further forward some of his runs into past the last defender were excellent. With Borini and Suarez pulling defenders about this could create some really good spaces for him to exploit. With Lucas and possibly Allen behind him pushing further forward to allow this would really benefit us.

Offline Carlos: Very Kickable

  • Pompous Twat. Scourge of Pinko Liberalism. Attitude to Cyan Conservatism is unclear. Lives in a Monochrome world and is baffled by colours.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,802
  • As Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus would say...
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #24 on: August 4, 2012, 02:52:41 pm »
Caught up on the preseason games the other day and watched Gomel and a few things have jumped out at me as Brendan is still implementing his ideas.
/snip/

This!










Only joking - I hate when people do that!

Thanks for an excellent post - I learned a lot.
I know you struggle with reading comprehension Carlitos, but do try to pay attention

Offline Dougle

  • and the bleu cat!
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,170
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #25 on: August 4, 2012, 03:04:33 pm »
Top post Lachesis, I learned a lot there. More please !

Offline Suareznumber7

  • Gullible. Lost in the modern world, thinks all tweets are true.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,934
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #26 on: August 4, 2012, 03:18:04 pm »
That analysis is exactly why it is going to be important for supporters to be patient.  It's going to take a lot of time for Rodgers to implement his ideas and for the players to get it right.  It's a big change from how we played last year. 

Offline Mr_Shane

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,530
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #27 on: August 4, 2012, 04:36:18 pm »
Good analysis. There were times when i felt that there were players who had no idea what they were supposed to be doing.... and when that happens, chances are we wont win many games. Frustrating as this is, the players are being coached into a new system so getting the players to play and feel comfortable in this system is going to take time, even if it won't get immediate results.

Offline Red Eyed

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,534
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #28 on: August 4, 2012, 04:44:32 pm »
Good analysis. There were times when i felt that there were players who had no idea what they were supposed to be doing.... and when that happens, chances are we wont win many games. Frustrating as this is, the players are being coached into a new system so getting the players to play and feel comfortable in this system is going to take time, even if it won't get immediate results.

I agree but there were a few reasons why the team looked so rigid that will be corrected with personnel change:

Spearing - Not very convincing as a playmaker = will be replaced by Lucas, who has such a calming influence on the team.

Carragher - Sound defensively but on the ball he was so slow and didn't push up high enough = will be replaced by Agger (problably), we all know what he can do.

Henderson - Had only been back a week and though he has the skills to do well in this system he will still need to learn it = Will be replaced by Allen (problably) who is already able to dictate the game.
"Just try, if we can do it, wonderful and if not, then fail in the most beautiful way"

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #29 on: August 4, 2012, 04:44:48 pm »
As I said in an earlier thread somewhere, it will take about 6-12 weeks for the whole team to adapt and know exactly what they are supposed to be doing. After that, it is a matter of fine-tuning and perfecting the system. In terms of the league, this means it won't be until the Everton or Newcastle games until we see it "gelling" for real, although if the players get on board and are prepared to adapt quicker, it will be sooner than that. It won't take a whole season for them to "get it", because the system is actually quite uncomplicated in concept, but again, a number of players will have to change some habits and develop new ones
Better looking than Samie.

Offline Il Capitano

  • Forza Liverpool. This thing of ours...
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,199
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #30 on: August 4, 2012, 08:13:44 pm »
As I said in an earlier thread somewhere, it will take about 6-12 weeks for the whole team to adapt and know exactly what they are supposed to be doing.

Why 6-12 weeks, what's the evidence of that being the case?

Offline Grobbelrevell

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,781
  • Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry & ignorance
    • The Grobbelramble
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #31 on: August 5, 2012, 10:37:52 am »
Snip

I didn't see the game myself, but I learnt a lot from that single post. Brilliant, thanks for taking the time.
Twitter | Blog

TRADE COUNT: +19  /  SoS Member 6854

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #32 on: August 5, 2012, 12:55:47 pm »
Why 6-12 weeks, what's the evidence of that being the case?

Physical adaptation
Habit formation
Neuromuscular adaptation
Tactical Periodization

... all take place within 6-12 weeks blocks. The key one for the team is Tactical Periodization. Every game, exercise and drill will contain a distilled version of the way Rodgers will want the team to play (apart from the management stuff, this is the key thing BR will have learned from Mourinho) - so even a simple 1v1 exercise will be based on how he wants the team to play, so the players are learning the style from warm-up to cool down and everything in between (as opposed to the traditional warm-up/fitness/ball work/tactics model that most coaches use and have used).

Having said that, I must be clear, though, that I don't mean that after 6-12 weeks the team will be all-guns-blazing - merely that they will know everything they will need to know about the system and it's demands. Everything after that will be fine-tuning and perfecting smaller parts rather than focusing on the bigger picture (so if, for example, one week we draw or lose a game despite having 50 crosses that didn't meet their target, then that will be worked on in practice the following week in order to prevent that situation happening again - something we clearly failed to do last season)
Better looking than Samie.

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #33 on: August 5, 2012, 01:51:16 pm »
Physical adaptation
Habit formation
Neuromuscular adaptation
Tactical Periodization

... all take place within 6-12 weeks blocks.

You sprout that off as fact but I'd be willing to bet there is no basis for what you are saying.
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #34 on: August 5, 2012, 02:19:54 pm »
You sprout that off as fact but I'd be willing to bet there is no basis for what you are saying.

You're free to research it. I'll give you a start:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/447910-how-long-does-it-take-the-human-body-to-adapt-to-a-new-exercise/

Supertraining by Mel Siff

Athletic Development by Vern Gambetta

Conditioning for Soccer by Raymond Verheijen

Periodization tactic: structural principles and methodological errors in their application in football by Vicenzi and Oliveira 2010

I'll add more later. Right now I have to go and make some adaptations take place :D
Better looking than Samie.

Offline AndyInVA

  • Born in Liverpool, grew up in Yorkshire, live in the States
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,128
  • Never Forget
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #35 on: August 5, 2012, 03:13:25 pm »
Lachesis
Loved your post. I was about some stupid 'horns of the buffalo' comment but then I got more into the piece.
Very educational

Offline ArchieC

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,697
  • Once a Red Always a Red WE BLEED RED!!
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #36 on: August 5, 2012, 03:18:04 pm »
This app only on Iphone or Android as well?
We all bleed RED!!

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,127
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #37 on: August 5, 2012, 03:30:55 pm »
Habit formation?
I don't know much about this beyond common sense but it takes 6-12 weeks to get good football habits? Doubt very much it's that simple.

Neurological adaptation?
A professional squad of footballers (in some cases 20 years or more in the game) are suddenly exposed to amazing new ways of moving in football. Alas in six weeks time neurologically adaptation will kick in and they'll suddenly be able to change direction, run and kick a football......made up bullshit

Physical adaptation?
A squad with players varying in age between 17-34 coming off the Euro's, or the Olympics with different injury histories.  All at different stages of training. But in 6-12 weeks they'll all be physiologically perfect for Rodgers game style.....Made up bullshit

Tactical periodization?

I don't know much about it. Smells of bullshit though too.

I do have a degree in exercise science and am familiar with the stength and condition world but this is cookie cutter/pigeon holing bullshit you are sprouting which I don't think you fully grasp.
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline Il Capitano

  • Forza Liverpool. This thing of ours...
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,199
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #38 on: August 5, 2012, 04:59:22 pm »
Physical adaptation
Habit formation
Neuromuscular adaptation
Tactical Periodization

... all take place within 6-12 weeks blocks. The key one for the team is Tactical Periodization. Every game, exercise and drill will contain a distilled version of the way Rodgers will want the team to play (apart from the management stuff, this is the key thing BR will have learned from Mourinho) - so even a simple 1v1 exercise will be based on how he wants the team to play, so the players are learning the style from warm-up to cool down and everything in between (as opposed to the traditional warm-up/fitness/ball work/tactics model that most coaches use and have used).

Having said that, I must be clear, though, that I don't mean that after 6-12 weeks the team will be all-guns-blazing - merely that they will know everything they will need to know about the system and it's demands. Everything after that will be fine-tuning and perfecting smaller parts rather than focusing on the bigger picture (so if, for example, one week we draw or lose a game despite having 50 crosses that didn't meet their target, then that will be worked on in practice the following week in order to prevent that situation happening again - something we clearly failed to do last season)

Interesting concepts, but I'm not at all sure you can so accurately quantify the amount of learning time these sort of system familiarisations will take. Especially without prior explicit knowledge of the minute details of Brendan Rodgers' training methods.

Offline [new username under construction]

  • Poster formerly know as shadowbane. Never lost his head whilst others panicked. Fucking kopite!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,359
  • Insert something awesome here!
Re: Round Table: Gomel vs Liverpool 0-1
« Reply #39 on: August 5, 2012, 05:02:07 pm »
Interesting concepts, but I'm not at all sure you can so accurately quantify the amount of learning time these sort of system familiarisations will take. Especially without prior explicit knowledge of the minute details of Brendan Rodgers' training methods.

or if we have a team full of thick bastards :D