Topic: Round Table: Liverpool 3 - 0 Wigan

[Aristotle]

Well what can you say after a performance like that. If we push on and make this business as usual then we will have a very good season ahead of us. It was a comfortable win over all and Wigan never really tested us, even though they were largely successful in neutralizing our efforts in the first half. Although we created chances, they were mainly direct. And speaking of creating chances. What a difference Reina makes. With all due respect to Brad Jones having Reina at the back we stay further up the pitch, possession is distributed better and it nearly paid off in the 9th minute when Reina played it to Enrique and then Suarez had the ball on the left wing and crossed it, nearly getting a deflection in for goal.

Some talking points:

Johnson-Enrique partnership - here to stay or a lucky break?

Is Enrique better suited to be a powerhouse winger than an indecisive fullback?

Was Agger making a claim for future captain with his 'don't fuck with us' attitude, getting involved in every controversy or does he need to tone it down?

Has Gerrard found his role as the deepest player in midfield and what do you make of Henderson's impact coming on for Suso? And does Henderson deserve to start next week?

Is Sterling outrageously good or un-fucking-believably good? The young man was tracking back, taking on defenders, making tackles and such was his quality that upon getting the ball on the 47th minute you instantly knew it would end in the back of the net.

Is Suarez unstoppable? The man is sensational, they were so scared of him that they didn't even try and kick out at him, because it gave him a chance to get past them.

Has Enrique found his goal scoring streak? I was so surprised when it happened that I forgot to put it in as a talking point!

Final thought: Can someone explain this strange feeling of joy that comes from seeing a bad decision fall in our favour? I haven't experienced it in so long I don't know what to do with myself here.

[Garstonite]

On Enrique. He was terrific today, but I think his inclusion in the side was more to counter the threat of Arouna Kone. I'd say he's an option, but I'd rather we kept sides guessing rather than sticking with the relative 'safety' of what worked in the second half today.

Has Gerrard found his role as the deepest player in midfield and what do you make of Henderson's impact coming on for Suso? And does Henderson deserve to start next week?

Absolutely not. I hate seeing Gerrard deep and it evidently didn't work whatsoever. He was anonymous before Suso's substitution and our change of shape. Credit to Henderson for the impact he had. He offered more than we've seen from Sahin so far. He has certain limitations, but he also has a terrific engine and is assured on the ball.

[Garstonite]

@Petermcdowall10
BR on Suarez & January: "We are working on the profile of players we need to fill the places that Suarez creates." #LFC

If this doesn't excite you, nothing will.

[Corkboy]

I watched the match on a shitty stream, missed Suso going off and had difficulty working out what the fuck was going on, shape wise. Can anyone give me a break down on the mid match changes?

[Corkboy]

I did get a good view of the second goal. Enrique took up possession out left and started burrowing his way infield, head down (I thought) utterly delighted with himself but not helping the team in any way. I thought, well he's going to cough it up to someone and then we'll be exposed down our left and that's fucking typical Enrique. And then, he produced a pass of such weight, direction and quality that it absolutely shredded the Wigan back line. Channelling Cazorla, that lad.

Suarez' finish was interesting. Al Habsi must have noticed his successful one on one against Krul and less successful rerun against Cech but this time, instead of going round the keeper, Luis poked it t'other side of him and it bobbled into the net. That, and the crisp finish for his first, made me think of that Wigan fan on the Spyin' Kop who had such strong feelings about our buck tooth assassin. He must feel terrible. Just terrible.

[Garstonite]

I watched the match on a shitty stream, missed Suso going off and had difficulty working out what the fuck was going on, shape wise. Can anyone give me a break down on the mid match changes?

In the first half, it was very much a 4-2-3-1 with Suso off Suarez. When Henderson came on, we went to Rogers' tried and tested 4-3-3, with Allen sitting on his own and Henderson and Gerrard sitting on front.

[StevenLFC]

I didn't see the game, but had text updates on my phone as I was in work. I thought the team was 3-5-2 with Enrique at left wing back, was that not the case?

[BabuYagu]

I watched the match on a shitty stream, missed Suso going off and had difficulty working out what the fuck was going on, shape wise. Can anyone give me a break down on the mid match changes?

http://forum.rojadirecta.es/showthread.php?183947-FUTBOL-Premier-League-Liverpool-vs-Wigan-17-11-2012

It's definately worth another look. I also watched on a stream. Missed the 3rd goal and a lot of other moments I´m sure. So I will give it another viewing before offering up my opinion. 2 hours to download a 700mb file is rough though!

I didn't see the game, but had text updates on my phone as I was in work. I thought the team was 3-5-2 with Enrique at left wing back, was that not the case?

We started with Rodgers 4-2-1-3 system. Allen and Gerrard were deep in midfield with Suso the point of the triangle. Enrique was left wing, Sterling Right.

When Suso went off, Henderson went alongside Allen (although Henderson the was the one who would move out of position and chase down the ball which gave us a LOT of energy without the ball) and Gerrard moved forward into Suso's place. That´s how I saw it and the average position map from ESPN backs that up.

[Aristotle]

Having looked over my post-match scribbles and reflected a bit on the game a few things stand out. I was initially sceptical of Reina, Jones had done well and Pepe had his brainfarts. Already from the start it was obvious that Pepe was doing good. He had his voice back, he made himself heard in a manner which we haven't experienced in some time. It wasn't really agression, more assertion and determination.

Having said that I thought the Johnson-Enrique co-operation was quite good, having Enrique storm down the flank more upwards his brainfarts hurt us less in terms of defending, he tracks back with excellence and his overlapping runs on more than one occasion opened up a pocket of space for Johnson to attack. Enrique's almost childlike narrowmindedness and goalseeking agression is a positive in games like this, in my opinion. We need players who aren't afraid of failing and who will just charge the opponent time and time again. We play at Anfield, we should be top dogs and even though Enrique has a somewhat unorthodox method of execution, it is part of that mentality. He is like a technically lacking Luis Garcia, with a bit less magic. I remember thinking for the 2nd goal "What are you doing??! FFS man pass the fucking ball! You've blown it now you fucking idiot! OHHHHH YOU GENIUS!"

Suarez and Sterling are developing a wonderful partnership. For the opener they were brilliant, Sterling did sensationally getting the ball and did everything well (initially I thought he'd fluffed the square pass) and you could see it once he had the ball at his feet the ball was always going in. That 3rd goal was a piece of magic. It wasn't the ruthlessness that the Gerrard-Torres partnership had, it was slick, one touch passing and movement.

Secondly we pressed high up the pitch and with more players. This was a result of Gerrard staying back which allowed us to go higher up without the fear of being turned in a key area and be turned on like in Podolski's goal against Arsenal. Having said that, Joe Allen was largely neutralized for the first half and I thought it was quite telling that Steven Gerrard got more space and more time on the ball than Joe Allen in the first 15 or so minutes.
The game changed when Henderson came on. Our midfield 3 were overrun by Wigan's 4 and change. With Henderson we got, as I have repeatedly called for, actual mobility in midfield in that role. Allen also played closer to his natural role (in my opinion) and these two positions instead of being occupied by either Gerrard or Shelvey meant we moved quicker in transition, pressed Wigan more whilst off the ball and looked a bit lighter on our feet in general. I was quite sad to see Suso go off. It was absolutely the right decision, but I was for the first time getting real positive improvements in him in terms of getting into the box. It wasn't Maxi-esque, but it was a lot better than him drifting out wide and watching as he has previously done.

As great as today was and as well as we did for the most part and this is my serial pessemist inability for carpe diem nature kicking in. Why the absolute fuck did Carragher play today? Notice the following quote from March and how literally word for word it fits for today.

That's another thing I didn't understand at the time and still puzzles me to this day. 3-0 up against a completely deflated Wolves team, Agger has some minor problems and with 8 minutes to go, 3 goal lead we bring on Carragher, with Coates on the bench. I don't get why we didn't use Coates. Was the perfect to give him the chance to pick up a few minutes and get familiarised with his team mates. It's odd sentimental stuff like that which confuses me. That Wolves team was never going to score one goal, let alone 3 so why not use the youngster instead of just boosting Carragher's appearance count.

It's terrifying it was literally word for word the same thing. 3-0 up, never going to concede, both of them on the bench even down to the 82nd minute substitute and now nearly 8 months later this hasn't changed. I tried to not let this get on my nerves but I just don't get it.


One final thing that really annoyed me and something of a trend is forming in that in the midst of all this diving debate. We have become very easy target for absurdly cheap fouls. I've lost count of the times Sterling and Allen have been called for fouls on players whom they can not even physically displace. In this game it was Suarez and Sterling on Figueroa, Agger and Wisdom on Di Santo and Gerrard on Watson. All for "fouls" that were not called in the opposite direction. But at least we ain't diving

[royhendo]

A quick shout out for Joe Allen, who was back heeled in the face accidentally, but didn't make a meal of it. Ricky Lambert yesterday made me laugh, playing dead after a light glance from his marker on his rib cage. He's a brave kid in many ways. He was good I thought.


Johnson-Enrique partnership - here to stay or a lucky break?

It's an option isn't it? And it looks quite a useful one. Is it any more lucky than Rafa pushing Dossena forward?


Is Enrique better suited to be a powerhouse winger than an indecisive fullback?

Depends where we're short - ideally in both cases Enrique (like Downing) is filling in as a utility player. We ought to have the precise player Rodgers wants there after January (and yes Garstonite - that is bloody exciting!).


Was Agger making a claim for future captain with his 'don't fuck with us' attitude, getting involved in every controversy or does he need to tone it down?

I think we have that right up our spine on our day - hopefully we build on it consciously.


Has Gerrard found his role as the deepest player in midfield and what do you make of Henderson's impact coming on for Suso? And does Henderson deserve to start next week?

I want him further up the park. Henderson is the big enigma of Rodgers' tenure to date for me. I think he uses him when he wants control or feels we need to win the right to play. If it was me I would start him until Lucas is fit, but I suspect there's an angle - we're well stocked in midfield and we need funds to even the depth out elsewhere.


Is Sterling outrageously good or un-fucking-believably good? The young man was tracking back, taking on defenders, making tackles and such was his quality that upon getting the ball on the 47th minute you instantly knew it would end in the back of the net.

He has bones made of adamantium, going by Ben Watson's plight (hope he recovers quickly). A tremendous talent.


Is Suarez unstoppable? The man is sensational, they were so scared of him that they didn't even try and kick out at him, because it gave him a chance to get past them.

Scary. The "Where would Liverpool be without him?" is the standard response, just like the "two man team" shout a few years ago. It's beyond tiresome now. Again, Garstonite's quote is exciting on that front.


Has Enrique found his goal scoring streak? I was so surprised when it happened that I forgot to put it in as a talking point!

Rodgers wants his wide men doing just that when the break advances up the other side - cutting in to get on the end of things in the box. We'll see a lot more goals like that in the second half of the season I reckon.

[royhendo]

By the way, my favourite little moment was Harold Ramis running 25 yards to berate the ref about the throw in, and us promptly score in the very spot he might have been in had he jot been a tit.

[Cpt_Reina]

A comfortable home win, 3 goals and a clean sheet, with a tactical substitution of a player in the first half, a player who was doing alright? Agog.

Ive said all season long how enjoyable this is because we're learning new things every game. The results might not be all that we hope, but there's no end of interest.

The game was fascinating to me.

To see Rodgers recognise what we were lacking if we were going to win the game, and have conviction of his opinion to make those tactical and personel changes at the stage of the match. Well, it was encouraging to say the least. Not least because he was vindicated.

I have to say that Henderson's been roughly treated by Rodgers in my opinion, and I was worried that he was being a little blinkered towards the lad. Refusing to acknowledge his useful performances in the cups and perhaps resenting him for blocking that mooted move to Fulham. It would have been foolish to do so given Sahin and Shelvey's dip in form.

But not for the first time this season I was left pleasantly surprised by him when it was Hendo who was looked to come off the bench. Managers do play favourites, its inevitable. But in this case it was heartening to see Rodgers forego his natural gravitation towards Shelvey, and look past his own 'signing' Sahin.

Henderson was the right choice, and Rodgers made it. Was this his 'Gerrard off and Lucas on' moment? Not quite. But a watered down version perhaps.

The goals were lovely. Not just because they existed. But how they came to exist.

Ive aired my doubts over whether Suarez can play that central role to the required extent. I hadnt seen him do the '9' bit as well as he'd done the 'false' bit. Yesterday he did it all.

The runs between his men (2nd goal), the attacking the front post (first goal). That's what I want to see more of. He's scored a lot of goals this season, but I'd been of the opinion that they were the sort of goals he could still be scoring from a wide position. That cant be said of yesterdays. Those were two goals you go to no9 scores.

Perhaps he does just need a better supporting cast.

Yesterday with an on form Enrique imposing his will all over Anfield, and with Sterling a more than able deputy, he had his support. He had his runners. And he had his supply.

Rodgers' comments post match about looking for players who can exploit the space created by Luis were interesting. Reading between the lines. And having seen how Sterling is being moved around the pitch with increasing regularity it's got me thinking whether Rodgers is looking for a very fluid front line. 3 players able to chop and change position. We know Suarez can do it. There's encouraging signs that Sterling can. If you add another intelligent, versatile attacker to that mix, someone else who can drift across the front line and look at ease in more than just the one position than you're looking at a lot of scope. Sort of like Chelsea's Mata/Hazard/Oscar triumvirate, only further up the pitch.

I cant not end on Enrique. The lad was superb yesterday. Genuinely menacing in that attack. Just when you think you have a player figured out eh?

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Things we learnt from this game...

Brendan Rodgers is not afraid to change things when he thinks his team is set up poorly.
Brendan Rodgers has so far been pretty successful with those in-game changes.  Which is reassuring because it gives the impression that he not only understands where we are losing the game but also what he needs to do to change that.

Can we assume that the Suarez is not a goalscorer we shouldn't be playing him through the middle debate is now closed?  Well at least until such a point as we sign a genuine world class goalscorer.

Jose Enrique is a curates egg isn't he.  Sometimes he leaves you thinking is he having a good game or is he having a stinker.  Today the moments of brilliance comfortably outnumbered the unforced errors and misplaced passes.  No chance of a scoring streak though, unless we can keep creating tap-ins for him.  It was good to see him gambling and getting into that position though.

Good to see Pepe back in goal but harsh on Brad Jones who was excellent as his deputy in recent weeks and on form this season deserved to retain his place.  Form is temporary though and class is permanent.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

I didn't see the game, but had text updates on my phone as I was in work. I thought the team was 3-5-2 with Enrique at left wing back, was that not the case?

The team sheet did suggest that but we lined up in a 4-4-2 formation with Enrique in front of Johnson on one flank, Gerrard and Allen in the middle and Sterling in front of Wisdom on the other.  Suso partnered Suarez up front.

It never worked.  We were outgunned in midfield and were unable to gain enough possession to put Wigan under any concerted pressure.  Thankfully Rodgers recognised that and made a first half change replacing Suso with Henderson.  It was harsh on Suso as he had been lively and is always a player who links well with Suarez.  It was a change that needed to be made though and it did change the game.  Although whether it would have had the same impact had we not had the fortunate confluence of events that saw Figueroa sold short with a pass, our paciest player on the field being in the ideal position to pounce on the mistake and Figueroa being on a yellow which meant that his only defensive option, the trip, was not really on the table is a moot point.  What we do know for sure is that Henderson had an excellent game when he did come on.  Hopefully enough for Rodgers to see that there is something that he can work with in the lad.  Henderson's downfall is that he lacks the self-belief of Joe Allen, he lacks the conviction that he can hold the ball and wait for the right pass because he is confident in his ability to move the ball and his body in such a way that opponents cannot dispossess him without fouling him.  Henderson is neat and tidy and has a magnificent engine but he lacks that conviction and I think that Rodgers sees that as a cardinal sin in a player seeking to play in that position.

Anyway I am rambling, after the change we switched to something more resembling 4-2-3-1 with Allen and Henderson anchoring operations and giving Gerrard more license to push forward and join Enrique and Sterling in supporting Suarez. 

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

The quote from BR that Brian posted is immensely heartening I think.  If we can get Lucas back and fit then a base of Lucas and Allen gives us a lot more license to support Suarez with an adventurous three. 

[Vulmea]

I can see why people are so happy but the basic break in the game was a sloppy back pass and then some good play to exploit the mistake.

the first half was still poor and the change was surprising - welcome because it meant the lad just didn't give up the whole first half without attempting to change things around but I thought it was more to do with shoring up our defensive play, Wigan were starting to look comfortable, than trying to win the game.

Wigan have not yet come from behind in a game so that first goal was going to be crucial. Likewise being ahead should create more  space for the type of counter attacking play we should be set up for with two fast wide men.

Think lady luck shifted slightly to us in the game where she has been absent for the best part of 18 months, including Suarez not being booked for the stamp.

2 games on the bounce for Jose 'Cavalier' Enrique looking good, who'd have thought that? Think Rodgers deserves credit for that and for Wisdom at right back both inspired moves.

I thought Carra was used because we'd actually lost concentration at the back and eased off thinking the game was won, he is I'm told a good organiser.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Open for general discussion ladies and gents

[Yorkykopite]

Think lady luck shifted slightly to us in the game where she has been absent for the best part of 18 months, including Suarez not being booked for the stamp.

Was it a stamp? It looked like a late challenge for the ball to me - punishable perhaps with a yellow on another day but hardly in the Robert Huth mould where you ignore the ball completely and simply aim to damage the man with the heel of your boot.

And since when did exploiting the mistakes of the opposition detract from the quality or authenticity of a goal? Isn't that precisely what's been missing for too long at Liverpool.  Suarez did it three times last season at Norwich and we were all delighted - you included possibly - but it just didn't happen enough.

More of that for me please. If a team makes a mistake against us let's get in for the kill.

[rowan_d]

Poor first half, very good second. That's as deep as my tactical insight goes

Special mention for Bousejour, who put in one of the worst performances I've ever seen. Did he play for Chile midweek?

[Draex]

I can see why people are so happy but the basic break in the game was a sloppy back pass and then some good play to exploit the mistake.

the first half was still poor and the change was surprising - welcome because it meant the lad just didn't give up the whole first half without attempting to change things around but I thought it was more to do with shoring up our defensive play, Wigan were starting to look comfortable, than trying to win the game.

Wigan have not yet come from behind in a game so that first goal was going to be crucial. Likewise being ahead should create more  space for the type of counter attacking play we should be set up for with two fast wide men.

Think lady luck shifted slightly to us in the game where she has been absent for the best part of 18 months, including Suarez not being booked for the stamp.

2 games on the bounce for Jose 'Cavalier' Enrique looking good, who'd have thought that? Think Rodgers deserves credit for that and for Wisdom at right back both inspired moves.

I thought Carra was used because we'd actually lost concentration at the back and eased off thinking the game was won, he is I'm told a good organiser.

I think you've been a little bit unfair about the opening goal, tt came about due to high pressing. The major focus of Rodger's system is to press high up the pitch and force mistakes so you can claim the ball in dangerous areas.  It's testiment to bringing on Henderson and having that blanket pressure that we forced the error and gained the goal. If we had continued with Suso and the formation we started would we have got that goal from pressure? Probably not..

[Sangria]

@Petermcdowall10
BR on Suarez & January: "We are working on the profile of players we need to fill the places that Suarez creates." #LFC

If this doesn't excite you, nothing will.

Someone tweet this to Rodgers. Maxi, Kuyt, Meireles. Players who know what runs to make to present plausible alternative targets for the midfield playmakers. Players who will follow up and finish off the chaos that Suarez creates.

[BabuYagu]

I have another question to ask in addition to those in the OP. Why Henderson and why this day?

When Lucas was injured against Manchester City and I saw Shelvey getting ready I wondered how Rodgers planned to win the midfield battle with both Shelvey and Gerrard in there. Since then, in the league, Shelvey and Sahin have been preferred over Henderson depending on whether we need more in attack or more control of the ball.

So what changed today? Has Henderson started showing Rodgers what has been asked in training? Was it the controlling performance for the England U21's? Was it the relatively poor performances of Sahin and Shelvey the past few games? Shelvey in particular has been poor.

As others have said, it was absolutely the right move at the right time. I've been saying for a long time now that Henderson is/can be a more rounded Momo. He isn't at that level in terms of athleticism but he offers far more than Momo ever could with the ball at his feet. I just cannot understand what changed where Henderson became his go to guy to win a midfield battle. I'm happy it has changed and hope it wasn't just a one off with Sahin and Shelvey both lacking form, fitness or both.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

The day started bright and early. Far too early. I had a restless, largely sleepless night worrying about the game. Had quite a few fears and (wrongly As it turned out) concerns about the referee appointed. Six AM found me up drinking coffee and fretting.

Met my mate and picked him up from the Station and we went off for a few games of Pool. Quite a long discussion of where we were at and what could be done. We both had reservations about Rodgers but saw quite a few positive signs in the way he changed the game and the team against Chelsea. Far too many pre-match Guinnesses were drunk - again nervousness kicked in. Got dropped near the ground by my missus as she was off to Goodison to their lounge to watch their away fixture. A walk up to the twelth man, more discussion about the game and a brief hello to Pete Evo followed. It was clear even there that everyone was downbeat and nervous about the fixture to follow.

Got in the ground after the long, long trek up the stairs to see the lads and hear YNWA. Again the whole nature of the ground was subdued and slightly depressed.

The first half kicked off with the weather looking lovely for the time of year. Wigan had a few fans tucked away in the far corner of the Anny Road and gave a decent account of themselves. The Kop was - as is common thesedays - subdued and quiet. We did a few decent little things here and there first half and carelessly gave the ball away, but luckily good fortune smiled on us for a change and we weren't punished. Even the referee - Mr. Friend actually looked the part of a Premier League Ref. He was fair, even handed and seemed to be having a laugh and a joke with the players. Wigan were pretty poor for such an attacking side for their time wasting which continued the whole game. Perhaps they had a vision of things to come.

Second half we didn't expect much but before we knew it Sterling got on the ball, ran at his man, swerved in and laid back a delightful ball for Suarez who still had a lot to do. He made no mistake and the sheer, massive delight as the ball hit that wonderful, wonderful back of the net was fantastic. We all celebrated like we'd won the European Cup. Incredible piece of play to get it in and a marvellous, marvellous finish.

After the delight had settled down nervy glances followed. We feared the worst although Wigan looked strangely subdued. Bits of sporadic noise followed in the Kop. As the game wore on it seemed that Wigan had given up. Given their form against us recently they looked subdued.

The game continued a tiny flicker of belief seemed to ripple through the side. Heads were raised and the passing became crisper and full of belief. We stepped up and suddenly there in front of my eyes Liverpool Football Club had a team again. It picked up and Wigan suddenly looked vunerable. They looked tired and they looked out of the depth. Liverpool stepped up and picked up again and people began to believe that we could win. We know we have a long, long way to go but things started to happen and Red men started romping.

Ten minutes later Enqrique looked to have squandered a chance to put in Suarez. He was pointing furiously but maintained his composure, had a quick look and stayed onside. An exquisite pass followed and Suarez quickly latched onto it and came out with an utterly superb world class finish. As he wheeled away the place went utterly ballistic. TWO GOALS UP AT ANFIELD!! The celebrations had to be seen to be believed! The whole place went fucking nuts. THIS was IT. Surely we couldn't lose now.

The Kop found its voice. Rodgers picked up his stature and looked imperious as he issued instructions. The team and the players picked up even more and that word echoed once more. BELIEF.

The third goal was hugely unfair on Wigan. Everyone in the ground could see it was a Wigan throw in - except the officials. Liverpool went and broke, Suarez again involved as he put a ball through to Sterling whose shot was saved but Enrique was there for a simple finish. An incredible 3 goal win at Anfield and we saw the game out. Back slapping and beaming smiles replaced the usual beleagured expressions that day and it was fantastic to know we'd finally stuffed someone and taken our chances.

The pub afterwards was great and the atmosphere improved even more as the hapless Manchester United were humilated in their game.

A long, long night followed with far too much ale and even shorts and a lot of Karaoke and delight. A fantastic game out and some sense of belief and spirit at the ground.

We've a long, long way to go but let's hope this is a first step to flying up the table. We just need to keep our feet on the floor and look at getting more strength in depth. Woke up this morning absolutely bladdered and still pretty merry now. What a fucking day. Made up.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Was it a stamp? It looked like a late challenge for the ball to me - punishable perhaps with a yellow on another day but hardly in the Robert Huth mould where you ignore the ball completely and simply aim to damage the man with the heel of your boot.

And since when did exploiting the mistakes of the opposition detract from the quality or authenticity of a goal? Isn't that precisely what's been missing for too long at Liverpool.  Suarez did it three times last season at Norwich and we were all delighted - you included possibly - but it just didn't happen enough.

More of that for me please. If a team makes a mistake against us let's get in for the kill.

Correct on both counts there I think.  Suarez often wins challenges with defenders by using his strength and aggression to get himself between them and the ball.  That is what he was trying to do then.  He goes in a bit fast and instead of getting his foot over the ball and hence shielding it he gets the defender.  Nasty foul and a yellow if the referee sees it properly but not a red for a deliberate stamp as some are suggesting.

I made the point about our first goal in my post above, there were elements that coincided to lead to that chance; the underhit pass was one but the others were all as a result of Sterling's quality.  His pace to nip the ball away, the way he had previously tormented Figueroa into a caution for a bad foul on him thus preventing him from cynically taking him out.  The way he used his pace to get away and the composure he showed in getting his head up, waiting for Suarez to check back out and then finding him with the pass.

[Red Genius]

Was it a stamp? It looked like a late challenge for the ball to me - punishable perhaps with a yellow on another day but hardly in the Robert Huth mould where you ignore the ball completely and simply aim to damage the man with the heel of your boot.

Yeah for me it wasn't a great challenge by Luis, and he knows what he's doing, watch his eyes as he's going in. It was deliberate, and with brilliance you get that bit of fire sometimes. But that's an area he can smarten up on, because right now we can't afford to lose him for any games in the league, with no credible replacement in the squad.

And since when did exploiting the mistakes of the opposition detract from the quality or authenticity of a goal? Isn't that precisely what's been missing for too long at Liverpool.  Suarez did it three times last season at Norwich and we were all delighted - you included possibly - but it just didn't happen enough.

More of that for me please. If a team makes a mistake against us let's get in for the kill.

I thought it was a good demonstration of pressing well high up the pitch, and i'd like to see us put opposition defenders under similar pressure every game at Anfield. Sure the pass wasn't great by Wigan, but you gotta be anticipating that opportunity, thankfully Raheem was alert to it and that how he was able to get in and nick it.

I was also pleased to see few defensive errors, a big shout out to Henderson and Rodgers conviction to change the personnel and set up so quickly. It's a lesson he'll learn and take forward no doubt.

Enrique the enigma, shines with some fantastic vision and drive from that left hand flank. I hope he keeps his form up as he provides some penetration when playing like this and that's a great weapon to have currently.

[Garcepticon]

Things we learnt from this game...

Brendan Rodgers is not afraid to change things when he thinks his team is set up poorly.
Brendan Rodgers has so far been pretty successful with those in-game changes.  Which is reassuring because it gives the impression that he not only understands where we are losing the game but also what he needs to do to change that.

Can we assume that the Suarez is not a goalscorer we shouldn't be playing him through the middle debate is now closed?  Well at least until such a point as we sign a genuine world class goalscorer.

Jose Enrique is a curates egg isn't he.  Sometimes he leaves you thinking is he having a good game or is he having a stinker.  Today the moments of brilliance comfortably outnumbered the unforced errors and misplaced passes.  No chance of a scoring streak though, unless we can keep creating tap-ins for him. It was good to see him gambling and getting into that position though.

Good to see Pepe back in goal but harsh on Brad Jones who was excellent as his deputy in recent weeks and on form this season deserved to retain his place.  Form is temporary though and class is permanent.

This was a huge plus for me,

-Suso got on the end of a cross
-Enrique followed up (Maxiesque) to grab the third
-When Suarez gets the first, he has three other options behind him.*
-Enrique attacked a fast cross and got a touch on it

*Enrique displayed a bit of naivety on that first goal because he should always hit the back stick in that position instead he gets sucked towards the ball and Suarez. Credit where it is due though because Enrique attacked the box in a way that no one has really done all season.

For that reason I would have Enrique in my team against Swansea because this team doesn't have many goalscorers so anyone who attacks the box like Enrique did yesterday needs to be in our first eleven. To further praise Enrique, he put through Suarez for the goal against Newcastle, a goal against Wigan, put Suarez through for the one on one against Cech, just missed (offside) putting through Sterling against Chelsea.

As many have covered Enrique is a bit like Luis Garcia because he is always trying to make things happen, and when coupled with his positioning around the box he becomes a sure starter.


The best thing about the game for me was that around the time of the second goal leading up to the third I thought, 'this game is fun to watch!' This is genuine Young Boys 5-3 fun to watch, I personally haven't had that in a while, especially in the league.

Rodgers had a brilliant game, the change with Henderson was exactly what I would want to see from a manager - when Hendo closed down three players and forced Wigan back to Al- Habsi he got a round of applause, a very encouraging one. That was one of the most pleasing moments of the game for me, if any player needs to feel like the crowd is behind him it is Hendo.

I was completely wrong about Suarez it seems, he can do the No.9 role and I have been banging that drum quite contrarily throughout this season. 

Negatives? Carragher coming on for Agger and Cole being on the bench at all, yes Morgan has a game for the u21s, but give those minutes which Shelvey got up front to a striker for the sake of increasing their profile for future sales at the very least.

Another negative, Shelvey hasn't half fallen in the eyes of Rodgers.


A question for the Round Table : Why has Suarez started scoring so regularly?

[Mutton Geoff]

To be fair we were better at the back Pepe at times could have had a deck chair, Jose was well astonishingly good further forward i would never have come up with that one so well done Boss. Jose had one goal one assist so good stats for him, I think also for all the sympathy for Suso Henderson coming on was another good move by Rodgers, so the team did well and the manager got a lot of decisions right.

[TitanTrigger]

I think you've been a little bit unfair about the opening goal, tt came about due to high pressing. The major focus of Rodger's system is to press high up the pitch and force mistakes so you can claim the ball in dangerous areas.  It's testiment to bringing on Henderson and having that blanket pressure that we forced the error and gained the goal. If we had continued with Suso and the formation we started would we have got that goal from pressure? Probably not..

This exactly, when we lose the ball at the back through a defensive error due to trying to play out the system is blamed, but when we force a mistake at the other end of the pitch through pressing we are lucky.

[Yorkykopite]

This exactly, when we lose the ball at the back through a defensive error due to trying to play out the system is blamed, but when we force a mistake at the other end of the pitch through pressing we are lucky.

Very true! .

[Nessy76]

Wigan are not the best team in the division, but they are very well organised. Any team as tightly drilled as that is going to be hard to score against. I don't get the "we only scored because they made a mistake" argument at all.
Firstly, pretty much every goal ever scored can be traced back to a defensive error of some sort. Second, it wasn't exactly a case of them giving the ball to Suarez to tap in from three yards. Thirdly, we scored three.

I know there was lots of moaning at half time, but for me we'd kept possession well, moved it around and restricted them very effectively. Wigan didn't come to park the bus yesterday, but they had very little threat. Especially once the magnificent Henderson came into the equation. He looked a lot more like the player a lot of us feel he can be, and the change of shape - plus their own early forced substitution - took the wind out of Wigan's sails.

Johnson - Enrique partnership. Worked an absolute treat. Was that down to it being so unexpected? I still think Johnson's more effective at right back, but you can't argue with success and the sight of Enrique tearing down the flank did me a power of good.

Captain Agger? I wouldn't have a problem with that, but Lucas would be my tip for that one when it comes around. No rush though, Stevie played solidly without grabbing the headlines.

Sterling excites me as much because of what he can still add to his game. He's so good for his age it's amazing, but players like him usually don't hit their best until they are 23 or older. The mind boggles. One thing I'd like to see more of is him getting into the box and having shots on goal, it will come.

[stockdam]

Johnson-Enrique partnership - here to stay or a lucky break?

Both are very good players and the partnership will get better. If Johnston presses forward or needs help then Enrique can fall back. Johnston is our best attacking back and he will be able to get forward knowing that José can fill in the gap.
Enrique also seemed to be very good at the short pass into space in the box.

Is Enrique better suited to be a powerhouse winger than an indecisive fullback?

I think it is unfair to say that he is an indecisive full-back. Last year he was one of our best players. Sometimes indecision is a result of the lack of movement and options around you or trying to adapt to a new set of instructions (new manager). At his best José has always been good at linking up with other players and can do this at full-back or on the wing. He is fast and strong over a short burst and therefore has the potential to get past players - he showed that yesterday.

Was Agger making a claim for future captain with his 'don't fuck with us' attitude, getting involved in every controversy or does he need to tone it down?

Agger could be a good leader but only if and when the position is available.


Has Gerrard found his role as the deepest player in midfield and what do you make of Henderson's impact coming on for Suso? And does Henderson deserve to start next week?

3 questions rolled into one.
I prefer to see Gerrard pressing at the other end of the pitch but he has good vision and can ping a pass from a deep position to one of our wingers. He is a good player to have on the pitch wherever he plays.
I didn't see the first half so I can't comment on the substitution.
Henderson has been a bit unlucky not to have started more games. His energy would help Gerrard and Allen so I hope he either starts or is on the bench.

Is Sterling outrageously good or un-fucking-believably good? The young man was tracking back, taking on defenders, making tackles and such was his quality that upon getting the ball on the 47th minute you instantly knew it would end in the back of the net.

He's getting better and is a better player than many £20M players that we could have bought. On the ball he is fast and confident. He needs to lift his head sometimes and see the other players around him but that will come. His only problem is he tends to be too aggressive with his tackles but at least he has the desire to get stuck in.

Is Suarez unstoppable? The man is sensational, they were so scared of him that they didn't even try and kick out at him, because it gave him a chance to get past them.

He is the most exciting player in the league. Enjoy him as he may be tempted by much higher wages and we may be tempted by £50M. AT one stage he had 4 or maybe 5 players around; he put his head down and within a spilt second he had left them all wondering how he got past them. Some of the things he can do are way beyond even the most capable players. He seems to want to stay on his feet now which is great as when he is brought down it will be obvious. He was lucky yesterday not to get a yellow card for his tackle on Jones though and he needs to be careful; he doesn't need to dive in.

Has Enrique found his goal scoring streak? I was so surprised when it happened that I forgot to put it in as a talking point!

No I don't think he'll get lots of goals. If he plays on the wing then he'll get several (he was close last week) but I don't see him scoring a lot.

Final thought: Can someone explain this strange feeling of joy that comes from seeing a bad decision fall in our favour? I haven't experienced it in so long I don't know what to do with myself here.

We get as many decisions going our way as the other team do and it's just a perception that we don't. People only remember the one that lead to our goal.



Some other comments on the game.

Wisdom came back to his best and along with Suso and Stirling we have three of the best youngsters in the league. Coddy may follow them into the first team squad.

People need some patience as we cannot always dominate games for 90 minutes. Man City were 0-0 at half time yesterday (I think) and I'm sure some of their fans thought that it was a poor display. We need the patience to understand that often chances come as teams tire and that we have the players to exploit this.

Suarez........no other player comes close to what he does. Let's get a world class striker to play alongside him in January as I fell that's the most important thing we need.

Lucas will be back soon and when he finds his match fitness then we'll be a much tighter team.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Why has Suarez started scoring so regularly?

Hmmm....  think the cop out answer is probably the correct one.  Because he is a world class player and he has scored regularly wherever he has played.  There is the obvious thing that all strikers have of hot veins of form where goals breed confidence and hence more goals but I guess that the correct question may be...  Why was Suarez not scoring this regularly last season?

[DanA]

I thought we started with a lopsided 4-4-2 (Enrique much deeper than Suso) and the game changed when we shifted to a more conventionaly (for us) 4-3-3 because it pushed Enrique forward. Henderson did a really good job of giving us midfield control and though it's a bit of a long bow that pressure Hendo applied is kinda what caused the mistake, perceived pressure leading to a mistake.

I think an interesting proposition worth discussing is using Enrique as a defense weapon. For instance against Bale in a few weeks time, perhaps it's worth playing Enrique on the same wing to help support the defence. It's not like Bale is super intelligent. I think Enrique's strength and speed matches up very well and he could create a dangerous counter attacking going forward.

I know Enrique is untried on the right side but theoretically to me it an interesting proposition.

The question also comes up...Do we need a leftback? Enrique looks very good as a winger and can always act as cover at LB. It'd finally allow Johnson back to the right where I think he's much better.

This game does leave me with a lot of questions on how our midfield fits together. Presumably Lucas walks straight into the DM position and Allen as a CM. That leaves Gerrard, Henderson, Sahin and Shelvey fighting for one spot and to be honest I don't know what order of preference I'd have them.

[Mutton Geoff]

Why has Suarez started scoring so regularly?

Hmmm....  think the cop out answer is probably the correct one.  Because he is a world class player and he has scored regularly wherever he has played.  There is the obvious thing that all strikers have of hot veins of form where goals breed confidence and hence more goals but I guess that the correct question may be...  Why was Suarez not scoring this regularly last season?

i would put that down to bad luck and missing  a few  sitters this led to poor confidence as you say it is literally hit or miss with a strikers confidence, also he had a problematic season with the Evra incident which might have affected him before the ban and after it!

[Yorkykopite]

Why has Suarez started scoring so regularly?

I think Rodgers should take some credit too. His deployment of Sterling on the right and the way he's encouraged him to attack the middle of the pitch when we have possession on the left has taken some of the creative pressure off Suarez and led to extra questions being asked of oppo defences.

[Torpedo Tommy]

Johnson-Enrique partnership - here to stay or a lucky break?

I think it will be a good option for us at 4-4-2.  When Enrique arrived I thought he was fantastic.  Very solid but just lacked the decisiveness to be good going forward.  Which takes us to.....


Is Enrique better suited to be a powerhouse winger than an indecisive fullback?

Honestly?  Don't know.  I think some of Enriques' indecision came from not having players around him making his mind up.  Nobody running in the right areas at the right time.

Yes - some was down to his indecision but suppose if a player isn't in the centre, the pass isn't on which will create indecision.

Was Agger making a claim for future captain with his 'don't fuck with us' attitude, getting involved in every controversy or does he need to tone it down?

No - he needs to keep on doing what he is doing.  Breeds the confidence we need to get on a winning role.

Has Gerrard found his role as the deepest player in midfield and what do you make of Henderson's impact coming on for Suso? And does Henderson deserve to start next week?

Gerrard is a fantastic player and will be capable in whatever position he plays on the field.  Should he be deep though?  Bit split on this one really because I think his creativity is wasted deeper.  He also tries a few things in a deeper holding role that most others would not.  An example being when he tried to flick the ball round the Wigan midfielder and got robbed.

Is his positional play the best?  Perhaps not but he's more than capable of playing the role though and doing a decent job at it too.

I was made up for Enrique but just as much so for Henderson yesterday.  Came on and looked like he'd been part of the first team midfield all season.  I reckon Henderson gets unfairly tarred with the Downing brush too much.  Where Downing doesn't come across as he is interested, its more a problem with opportunities with Henderson.

Did a very good job yesterday.  I'm sure the lad really does have a future at Liverpool.  Start next week?  Probably dependent on the opposition


Is Sterling outrageously good or un-fucking-believably good?

Un-fucking-believably good for me.  Yes he did track back and work his socks off but the bit that impressed me?  When he actually found Suarez with the pass for the first goal.

So many times in the last few years we have been in that position and we've either hit the first man with the cross, ran into him or played it in aimlessly.

Good stuff from the young lad


Is Suarez unstoppable?

Simply outstanding.  Nothing more to add really.


Has Enrique found his goal scoring streak?

Yes!  100% strike rate over the last err, 1 game! 


Final thought: Can someone explain this strange feeling of joy that comes from seeing a bad decision fall in our favour?

Made me smile after the game.  Was in the Kop so didn't see the deflection from Suarez.  That said, it was a shite ball which may have gone straight out anyway and the throw was near the half way.  It was hardly what you call the benefit of a very dodgy penalty or sending off

Final Final thought?

Special mention to Brendan Rodgers.  The first 35 minutes were rudderless.  Plenty of possession but no end product.  Apart from Suso's shot on goal was there any other chance of a goal?  Rodgers was bold in changing the system and it worked perfectly.  From aimless passing from side to side we suddenly had meaningful possession in meaningful areas of the pitch.

About the 25th minute I could feel the anxiety setting into the crowd.  Wigan were comfortable and we could have been playing now and it would have been 0-0.  Credit to Rodgers there

The other key point to note was that we kept on going at 1-0 and 2-0 up only easing off into controlling the game when it was over at 3-0.  That for me has blighted our performances from Rafa's last year to the current times (save for a few month under Kenny).  I remember a litany of games in this period when we should have made it a rout but instead eased off and handed back the initiative to the opposition.

So much said that it was "only Wigan" - which to an extent true, but it was only Wigan last season.  As it was only Norwich, Sunderland, Swansea et al too.

Onwards and upwards

[BreakfastPercy]

Why has Suarez started scoring so regularly?

Hmmm....  think the cop out answer is probably the correct one.  Because he is a world class player and he has scored regularly wherever he has played.  There is the obvious thing that all strikers have of hot veins of form where goals breed confidence and hence more goals but I guess that the correct question may be...  Why was Suarez not scoring this regularly last season?

The ban must have had an impact. Also having a completely incongruous strike partner in Carroll doesn't help. When those two played you had Suarez (and the rest of the team) adapting to Carroll's flick-ons, and in no world should Suarez be anything but the main man. It was like moving the Monet so you could appreciate the Neil Buchanan macaroni sculpture some mad French bit told you was art.

what do you make of Henderson's impact coming on for Suso? And does Henderson deserve to start next week?
Rodgers cut his teeth as a youth coach, and we shouldn't forget Henderson is still a young lad. We tried to flog him in the summer, but I think it's fair to say our squad would be more balanced with Dempsey instead of Henderson, so it wasn't a mad idea and doesn't necessarily mean Rodgers doesn't rate him at all. Jordan needed some time away from the spotlight to rebuild, and if there's one thing I'm confident in it's that if Rodgers thinks there's a player in there, he will bring it out. The question is does he think that, and do circumstances (finances etc) make it worth the time? I think he deserves to start, but if the softly softly approach is better for him long term then I'm happy with that too.

I said it in the other post-match thread as well, but Wigan gave us a lesson in defending in possession in the first half. If any manager knows the ins and outs of doing that it's Rodgers, and he seemed to know exactly how to counter it. One advantage of having a manager from a smaller club is having a man on the inside, so to speak. Well done Brendan!

[Nessy76]

Made me smile after the game.  Was in the Kop so didn't see the deflection from Suarez.  That said, it was a shite ball which may have gone straight out anyway and the throw was near the half way.  It was hardly what you call the benefit of a very dodgy penalty or sending off

As I said last night, if you can't defend a throw in that far from your goal, you deserve to concede.

[fowlermagic]

The Johnson Enrique partnership did alright today as we needed them to track back the first half where we were woeful and they took advantage of the space in the second when it came. Im hoping Enrique gets his confidence back as he and Johnson roving down both sides would be a huge boost. Wisdom is a tank and has tremendous potential but he / the right hand side needs a push when it comes to attack which you would get from Johnson. This season is really a free for all so maybe we can continue with Enrique on the wing as we have nothing to lose from. Wisdom gets experience, Enrique may fall on his feet as a left winger, Johnson is our full long term left back and three positions are sorted for the long term.
In regards to SG and our midfield overall they were not at the races as even when they came out after HT Wigan looked the better side until they let us in with a mistake. Allen lately, Sahin when he starts and even SG look poor the past month or so. Henderson def deserves to get a nod ahead of off form players and with Lucas coming back I would not be surprised to see him, Henderson starting in the middle with either SG the most forward or Allen with SG filling in on the right.


Sterling and Suarez look like a budding partnership and with another player or two thrown in the mix we should be looking decent. Still a long way off what you would expect as the front 4 positions should be scoring / assisting more if we want top 6 even. Right now we are on pace to finish outside that and that’s not good enough considering how much we have spent the past 4 or 5 years and should have money burning in Brendan’s pocket to burn if he was rightfully backed in his first season. Sidenote – you expect a new manager to buy 5 plus new players in the first 11 the first 2 seasons he arrives esp with a team suffering their worse spell in decades. Brendan was scrimping and dealing in his first chance to bring in 2 plus Sahin on loan. So much for revamping the team as all we did this summer was shake the mat outside the door to rid as many players as we could and forgot the mat outside. It does not take long for players to get dishearten / lose form as we have seen this season already...Pepe, Enrique, SG etc and Suarez wont hang around in a top 8 team for more than 2 seasons so we better get a rush on this Jan and show top 4 is not 20 points too far for us.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

The ban must have had an impact. Also having a completely incongruous strike partner in Carroll doesn't help.

Mate, pre match yesterday did a hilarious impression of the Suarez - Carrol partnership.  It essentially consisted of a sequence of frustrated expressive Uruguayan body shapes.