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Some quality/important posts you may have missed
royhendo:
Edit: due to some people completely missing the point of the thread... here's the point.
This is meant to be like the RAWK 'Readers Digest'.
Some threads go to double figures in pages in a few hours, and in amongst that lot you might miss a little nugget of quality cos you can't be arsed trawling through it all. If you see a post like that, from whoever it is (and it doesn't matter if it's a satanic bestial rant proving unequivocally that Rafa is the antichrist), then post it.
YOU ARE THE JUDGE. THE IDEA IS NOT FOR THE ORIGINAL POSTER TO GET ALL 'PRAVDA' ON YO' ASS. JUST POST THE QUALITY IF YOU FIND IT. SOME PEOPLE LIKE THEIR RAWK IN BITE-SIZED CHUNKS.
Anyway on to the posts I wanted to highlight in the first place cos they were buried under a mountain of shite.
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I thought I'd quote a few posts I appreciated this week, because they appeared like little havens of rest in a stormy sea, only to fade from view in the barrage of garbage. If you've read them already, I apologise. I just know that I'd appreciate someone bringing stuff like this to my attention if I'd missed it - goodness knows it's hard to find the diamonds in amongst the shite these days.
Cheers to the posters like these for making this the finest site on the web.
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On the 'Rafa's Houllier Moment' thread...
--- Quote from: FAT SCOUSER on January 20, 2009, 07:03:17 pm ---Well, I finally got round to reading the answers. I intended to answer them, but, in all honesty, once I saw your answer for a replacement manager was Mourinho I changed my mind. In fact, I nearly lost the will to live.
Me and KOTP crossed swords in another thread about Rafa. He kept saying Rafa didn't act in the "Liverpool Way." I'd like to go on about the Liverpool way, but I've done that in other threads. But I'll say this.... Mourinho is the absolute anti-christ of the Liverpool way.
I honestly, personally hate the man that much that if he ever did become manager of LFC, I would stop going to all games immeadiately and wouldn't go to another until he was gone. And that's coming from a man who has been going to watch Liverpool for 45 years.
And once I saw his name, I was tempted to just print Fuck off in highlighted capitals, but I'll try to be above me usual self. But take it from me, Mourinho would truly be the final nail in the coffin of The Liverpool Way.
On top of that, Mourinho is also basically a very cautious manager. His teams play shit on a stick football and grind out very boring 1 - 0 wins. But why let facts like that stand in the way when finding another alternative is so hard if not impossible.
Also, did you not see Rafa's Valencia play? Boring, defensive football, I think not. We are work in progress - results and substance must come before flair. The hardest title to win is the first one. Style can be added once it's in the cabinet. They also seem to come in clusters too. And let's be honest.. who can honestly say they haven't been thrilled with some of our football during Rafa's shift?
Quick word on The Liverpool Way... it never just evolved or materialised out of the blue. Bill and Bob fought the board tooth and nail to make them conduct business in that manner. And Bill was never shy about going public with any of his gripes, or using us fans to help him push for what he wanted. We also had great men like John Smith and Peter Robinson conducting business for us - the exact polar opposites of Parry and H&G.
But anyway, instead of answering the answers, I will say this... I honestly think a lot of this stems from the fact that we have been completely ruined as fans by our success. In fact, Rafa created a terrible rod for his own back by winning the CL in his first season. Our expectations are quite laughable at times and no wonder fans of other clubs call us Whingeing Scousers.
Even through the lean years we have picked up trophies and our record would have been perfectly acceptable at other clubs. Imagine Portsmouth having the success we've had in the Ged/Rafa years. Fuck me. they made Harry Redknapp a free man of the city for winning the FA Cup. They even gave it to the spiv bastard after he'd kicked shit in their face and went to Spurs - a full two days after he'd fucked off.
We're not Pompey you will say. I know we are not - we boo when going top of the league. They sing non stop when getting twatted 8 - 0. But other than that, we have things in common - we're both skint and we have turmoil in the boardroom. But we expect, no demand, to win league titles against the most formidable richest opponents we have ever faced.
I think alot of this has to do with this fucking awful time of instant celebrity, fame and riches. No one wants to earn things now. A lot of young people have a smaller attention span than a goldfish. Yeah. I might be an auld bastard, but I don't watch highlights of Man U or Arsenal on MOTD and think they play like that for 90 minutes week in week out. And I'm certainly not having a go at young people. I know some cracking young reds. But it does seem to be an age thing. The problem is building a successful football team and leaving a lasting legace, still requires the sort of time it did in the glory years. I never hear any of these gripes in the auld arse thread.
After Saturday's wonder goal, one young fella on here said to me in all seriousness... We should buy Koncheski. When I pointed out the last time he scored a goal, it was really a cock up of a cross against us I was just surprised he even remembered we'd been to Cardiff. That's why I just say fuck off to most people who have lost faith in Rafa - they haven't got a fucking clue and just regurgitate what they are force fed by the media. "Skywashed" as someone on here named it.
I've no idea how old the OP is, but I just wish people like KOTP - who's probably far cleverer than me - would take the time to think of what could happen if Rafa jumps or is pushed.
Where would that leave us? In complete disarray, I'd think. And how long would it take us to pull out of it? Lets face it, even if a great manager was to come in under the best of circumstances, it would still take him time to implement his plans. I think, well, I'm practically certain, Arsene Wenger won the league in his first attempt. But he did take over a great side and had/has a good boardroom behind him.
So KOTP, as me Ninna would say, be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
Rafa sackers, really need to develop a little patientce. His lot is not an easy one. The boardroom will never give him there full support - we should.
But if he hasn't delivered the title in a couple of season's, when he's been allowed to buy the players he wants - within a set budget - I will join you. But I won't be doing it in slyly veiled little snipes. I'll be calling for his head good and proper. But until that time has clearly come, I'm fucked if I want to lose the best manager we've had since Sir Bob before he's had time to finish the job.
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On the 'Rafa contract statement' issue...
--- Quote from: shanklyboy on January 17, 2009, 02:06:19 am ---I've tried to stay out of this thread as much as I can as I didn't want to have to keep responding to some of the drivel that seems to creeping into every other post since Rafa's press conference last week. It's not that easy when you see things repeated 30 seconds after SSN have said it and another myth is perpetuated ad infinitum and ad nauseum.
So I'm going to give an honest opinion based on fact. People can take it or leave it but those that know will understand. Those that want to just use any platform of perceived negativity to have a crack at Benitez will continue to do so because its been festering in their heads for too long to change. Those that only have an opinion dependant on what they see in the media will only change their opinion when they are told what it is by the same.
I've worked with Rick Parry and as you say Alan there is far more to this man than just being an accountant. His commitment to Liverpool F.C is undoubted and his workload would make most of us buckle after a week.
The job he inherited from Peter Robinson was one of if not THE biggest challenge to anyones abilities in recent football history.
The lack of foresight from his illustrious predecessors over many years has probably got more to do with our current plight than people care to see. Simply because it's easier to blame the 'clown' than anyone else. There is no smoke without fire though and therein lies part of the story.
Behind the scenes, he has worked tirelessly to haul our club back to where we once were. Both in terms of financial muscle and administrative excellence.
His ability to do this has been questioned many times within the club and some of the methods employed have actually left us further behind and not even close to be drawing level with our competitors.
Part of the blame for this has been the remnants of Liverpools administrative past. How things had to be done 'The Liverpool Way', while still dragging the club into the modern day. Liverpool as a footballing business model would be the team equivalent of the 2nd Division when Parry arrived while our main competitors were swanning around The Champions League, such was the ground we had to make up.
The problem with Parry is that his role and responsibilities have changed dramatically at the same time as we tried and failed to play catch up. So no sooner did we look as though we were getting there,then he was loaded with further responsibilities. This created difficulties, compounded by the changes in the managerial structure of the club and the rapid responses needed in the modern game. He was in effect doing 3 jobs.
One he was qualified for as an accountant. One he had experience of, effectively, as a senior administrator with the Premier League and one he was never going to manage effectively alongside the other two. That was as C.E.O of Liverpool F.C.
How a club like Liverpool F.C could be the only one who didn't employ a marketting executive until Ayres was appointed is testament to the reliance of keeping things done a certain way so as not to rock the boat. They didn't learn by past mistakes. See the farcical 'joint manager' roles of Evans & Houllier as further evidence of that type of reasoning.
The job was too big for Parry but nobody within the club was prepared to change the situation. Instead more responsibility and therefore more power was given to Parry.
Once Benitez arrived at the club, things started to change almost immediately.
Benitez realised that from a footballing aspect the club was not geared up to the needs of the modern game and certainly not to the needs of Liverpool F.C. Some of the things Benitez was informed were in place when he was offered the managers position were clouded in half truths. Many of those things were paramount to Benitez in his decision to come to the club. They represented many of the things he saw as being vital for the club's long and short term future.
Benitez came to the club believing there was a platform for him to put his ideas in place and take the club to where they told him they wanted to be. The reality of what he found was so far removed from the initial promises. Initially this was put down to clashes of personality, which in some cases it was. However Benitez found himself running down blind alleys at almost every turn.He was continually meeting Parry down there. The main stumbling blocks being cash, the buying and selling of players and the youth structure. All things that a footballing man needed to run smoothly and effectively. Benitez was renowned for being one of the widely respected youth coaches during his time in Spain and this was a major part of his CV. Yet he was told to keep his nose out at Liverpool. The fragmentation of the senior and junior set ups at the club was beyond his comprehension. As was the fact that he, as manager was being prevented from having any effective input in to it's running or effectiveness.
Benitez decided to restructure those areas he was 'allowed' to and that started some major problems.
He effectively bypassed the youth system and brought his own players in, to train with the senior squad. Once Steve Heighway left,many of the successful youth team were promoted to the reserves and therefore came under his overall control.
He still didn't have any real input into the youth set up which was being overseen and run by Rick Parry. Parry's reluctance to sanction or back the overhaul of the youth system has been a major problem for Benitez. A none footballing man effectively preventing a football man from doing what he was brought in to do in the first place.
It is well known within the club that Benitez wants to develop our own players. He is extremely passionate about it, yet feels this won't happen quickly enough under the present structure.Even though that long term the club will benefit both financially and in terms of having a local heart to the club. Something that he spoke of only today.
On top of all of this is the farcical situation regarding protracted transfers we are all aware of. This all came to a head, just before the Gerrard fiasco made the headlines. Parry's reticence to get the Gerrard's contract sorted out was seen within the club and by Rafa in particular as an indication of how much power Parry thought he had. This was a further indication of his lack of footballing mentality. He was actually prompted to get this sorted from within the club but still dragged his heels.This caused major problems internally and is the catalyst for many of today's difficulties. The almost catastrophic outcome was seen as a watershed. It wasn't!
On top of that Benitez had the unfortunate misfortune of having to go through Parry for every transfer.
I'm not going into who they were, but certain players at home and abroad had approached Liverpool F.C and had agreed to come after speaking with Benitez only for the deal to fall through after Parry became involved. Some were high profile, some were not. The biggest deals having been well documented. Some equally as big which have not been.were already agreed with players without massive wage demands or contract terms only to fall away yet again. This caused severe professional embarrassment for Benitez and restricted the progress of the team.
Once the takeover came about and the club was restructured once again, Benitez was once again made promises regarding transfers.Certain operating procedures were put into place by Hicks & Gillette to try and smooth things along. Without going into too much detail about what they were here, they failed when the H & G relationship started to wobble. The operating procedures fell by the wayside, which Benitez wasn't happy about as they appeared to be working. Once H & G lost the day to day 'hands on ' contact with club matters,apart from Ayres 'input', things reverted to type and Parry just went about things The Parry Way.
As I said initially, Parry works tirelessly for the club. However he is not the man for the job. Certainly not working with Benitez, or any other forward thinking manager, who knows the buck stops with him under the current structure.
As the public face of Liverpool Football Club, you couldn't meet a more insipid, grey, uninspiring man. He is the archetypal accountant, who's lack of personality and charisma is exactly what you would imagine it to be by his public image.
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--- Quote from: shanklyboy on January 17, 2009, 08:28:27 pm ---If I'm not mistaken, this is the 3rd draught of Benitez’s contract. The obvious sticking point being the clarification of his responsibilities.
The contracts have been altered each time, but have obviously failed to meet with Rafa’s expectations. These contracts have been drawn up under the instructions laid down by H & G, but it's not clear if Parry has had any say in the structuring of responsibilities. I'd be very surprised if he did officially, but unofficially is a different matter.
However it wouldn't be a surprise if the final draughts had been presented to him at the same time as Benitez‘s advisers.
H & G know full well what Benitez is after, as does Rick Parry. Dragging this out and not ascending to his demands through 3 draught contracts is being seen two ways. Firstly that H & G have already decided what course of action to take but are adopting a softly softly approach to it all in order to buy themselves some time until they can sit down with all concerned at the end of January and iron things out in person. . This would have the added bonus of keeping a lid on a potential powder keg.
Secondly that they have no clear idea of how this will be resolved and again, need to gauge the depth of feeling in person. This is the more worrying for obvious reasons. The role Rick Parry has was defined by H & G initially and the concern is that they should be able to take away what they gave in the first place. The reality is somewhat more complicated. Parry is a professional man of high standing in the game. Any changes to his remit are going to be met with reticence . Losing credibility and having his power reduced would be seen as a direct criticism and not be accepted lightly.
However, Benitez is in that exact position now. His position as manager is under constant scrutiny and he feels unable to work to his full capacity and fulfill the demands placed upon him under the current work practices. This is seen as a slight on his professional ability.
All Benitez demands are to do with ensuring the success of Liverpool F.C and are in no way seen as him trying to wrestle power for powers sake. Parry would argue the same case, but with less credibility as football matters are still seen within the club as taking precedence.
Parry and Benitez have tried to work together. They know that a great many of the problems have been caused by H & G. However both know that allies are needed, given the ’voting structure’ being used at the club.
There is still a certain degree of mistrust about however.This plagued the early years of H & G reign and was compounded when it became apparent to Moores and Parry that debt was going to be levied on the club. The first cut is the deepest as they say.
Either way there has to be compromise for this to be resolved. Whether that compromise is to be voluntary or enforced is unknown.
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Last but not least... the Results Comparison thread. The guys on there are doing an amazing job. It'd be a good idea to take a sober read from this point on in the thread. It'll maybe check your expectations and make you think.
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=226100.msg5279970#msg5279970
royhendo:
I wish they were longer. If we all sat and read or listened to people like these instead of regurgitating the bollocks we inhale in the mass media, we'd all get a bit of perspective...
DonkeyWan:
Shankly boy post is thoroughly interesting.
SuperSub77:
Thanks for sharing these royhendo.
The 'power struggle' is the old classic arguement of what is best for a situation versus profit. In the modern world, profit will always win. Sad but true.
They may be long posts, but worth the 5 minute read.
Veinticinco de Mayo:
Nice idea Roy. Be good to keep this going.
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