Topic: DC Mega Topic, it's not the MCU

[tubby]

At this point I think we need an actual Superman to save us, we're all fucked.

Get him on VAR.

[Something Worse]

Get him on VAR.

Superman: "There is a right and a wrong in the universe and the distinction should not be hard to make."

Mike Riley: "hold my beer"

[El Lobo]

Superman: "There is a right and a wrong in the universe and the distinction should not be hard to make."

Mike Riley: "hold my beer"

David Coote: "My mother was also called Martha"

Batman "Lets all be friends, VAR is excellent"

[Something Worse]

David Coote: "My mother was also called Martha"

Batman "Lets all be friends, VAR is excellent"

VAR is just Brother Eye anyway!

[Red Beret]

You got an origin story for Superman and Wonder Woman, did you feel like you really missed out on Batman's origin story?

I refer you to the honest trailer for Batman v Superman.  They try to set up waaay too much in one film.  It would be like trying to cover all six infinity stones in Iron Man.

[Red Beret]

Sometimes it takes a few goes for everything to come together.  Marvel have had different Hulks, different F4s, different Spideys and different X-Men, but once they got past that and now they're in an official shared universe, it's looking much better.  They've done really well to tie all the threads together with stuff like Shield and now WandaVision.

I'm a comic book fan, I really want DC to get it right and they're moving in that direction with the JL.  Just wish it wasn't a grimdark CGI-fest and that they'd try and do Superman the way Superman should be represented.  Marvel got it spot on with Cap's characterisation and back story.

Bear in mind, you have also had different studios working on all these projects, from Fox with F4 and X-Men, to Sony with Spiderman.

WB has pretty much owned the entire DC franchise from the start. And you only have to look at the Star Wars sequels to see how easily it can be to screw something up, even with an established universe.

[Red Beret]

At this point I think we need an actual Superman to save us, we're all fucked.

Is it a bird?  Is it a plane?

Fuck those things, they probably spread Covid...

[Something Worse]

I refer you to the honest trailer for Batman v Superman.  They try to set up waaay too much in one film.  It would be like trying to cover all six infinity stones in Iron Man.

I don't see how? You already have Superman, Batman needs to introduction. They disagree with each other's existence, fight, reconcile and deal with a larger threat.

You don't need six movies to build to a team up. Especially not with Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman.

[Red Beret]

I don't see how? You already have Superman, Batman needs to introduction. They disagree with each other's existence, fight, reconcile and deal with a larger threat.

You don't need six movies to build to a team up. Especially not with Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman.

Was all the apocalyptic stuff necessary?  The Flash cameo?  How did that add to the crux of a film that's supposed to be about Batman v Superman?  That's setting aside Lex's slightly convoluted plan.

But hey, if you enjoy the film go for it.  Personally I think they left the wrong stuff on the cutting room floor; the fact you need to release extended editions to explain the theatrical version is a sign of poor storytelling imo.  As a casual moviegoer I'm more inclined to go for a shorter movie.  Marvel gets away with a three hour Endgame film because they earned it over the previous instalments to tie off as many loose ends as possible.

[Something Worse]

Was all the apocalyptic stuff necessary?  The Flash cameo?  How did that add to the crux of a film that's supposed to be about Batman v Superman?  That's setting aside Lex's slightly convoluted plan.

Come on pal, how does Batman having a nightmare about the unstoppable alien bringing about the end of the world have anything do with the movie where he's trying to stop the unstoppable alien? It's literally why he's fighting Superman!

But hey, if you enjoy the film go for it.  Personally I think they left the wrong stuff on the cutting room floor; the fact you need to release extended editions to explain the theatrical version is a sign of poor storytelling imo.  As a casual moviegoer I'm more inclined to go for a shorter movie.  Marvel gets away with a three hour Endgame film because they earned it over the previous instalments to tie off as many loose ends as possible.

That's a matter of taste and the majority agree with you. I don't think it's a perfect film, I just don't think you need 5 movies to build up to a team up movie. Marvel did it, and it worked even though most of those movies are forgettable trash. I'd rather have Marvel making Marvel movies and DC making DC movies than both companies churning out the same stuff.

[Red Beret]

Come on pal, how does Batman having a nightmare about the unstoppable alien bringing about the end of the world have anything do with the movie where he's trying to stop the unstoppable alien? It's literally why he's fighting Superman!

That's a matter of taste and the majority agree with you. I don't think it's a perfect film, I just don't think you need 5 movies to build up to a team up movie. Marvel did it, and it worked even though most of those movies are forgettable trash. I'd rather have Marvel making Marvel movies and DC making DC movies than both companies churning out the same stuff.

Mate, I've told you my problems with the movie and why I think these scenes shouldn't have been included.  I'm no screenwriter but I know enough about writing and storytelling to feel they spoil the pace of the film and add needless run time.

Now yeah, nobody is looking for origin stories to characters who have had their backgrounds told in films before, so there's some leeway to get into the meat; but for reasons too numerous for me to go into much detail over, I feel they overcooked the cake.  By all means disagree, but there's a big difference between having an opinion and telling somebody they wrong because they didn't enjoy a movie.

[Something Worse]

Mate, I've told you my problems with the movie and why I think these scenes shouldn't have been included.  I'm no screenwriter but I know enough about writing and storytelling to feel they spoil the pace of the film and add needless run time.

Now yeah, nobody is looking for origin stories to characters who have had their backgrounds told in films before, so there's some leeway to get into the meat; but for reasons too numerous for me to go into much detail over, I feel they overcooked the cake.  By all means disagree, but there's a big difference between having an opinion and telling somebody they wrong because they didn't enjoy a movie.

I didn't say you were wrong for disliking the movie (and pointed out that the majority agree), I disagreed with your opinion that they should have ripped the Marvel template.

Honestly if they're going to go fucking wild and have Keaton and whatnot show up - I'm all in. Just don't do what Marvel have done again - we've already seen it.

[Red Beret]

I didn't say you were wrong for disliking the movie (and pointed out that the majority agree), I disagreed with your opinion that they should have ripped the Marvel template.

Honestly if they're going to go fucking wild and have Keaton and whatnot show up - I'm all in. Just don't do what Marvel have done again - we've already seen it.

Sorry, maybe there's some confusion.

I didn't dislike the movie, nor did I say, or at least mean to imply, that they "rip" the Marvel template.  I just get the impression when I watch these films that they are trying to hard to be like Marvel without being Marvel - there's an attempt at some epic scope but it seems a random jumble to me because there doesn't appear to be anything underpinning it, as in the infinity stones.

I think there is more potential to stitch this thing together into something much more cohesive, and I think they need to look to the Marvel template for that, but that doesn't mean they have to flat out copy it.  I see long movies that give the impression of setting something up, but at the same time there seems to be no direction.  A lot of that has to do with the editing and making things needlessly complicated imo.

[Schmidt]

Sorry, maybe there's some confusion.

I didn't dislike the movie, nor did I say, or at least mean to imply, that they "rip" the Marvel template.  I just get the impression when I watch these films that they are trying to hard to be like Marvel without being Marvel - there's an attempt at some epic scope but it seems a random jumble to me because there doesn't appear to be anything underpinning it, as in the infinity stones.

I think there is more potential to stitch this thing together into something much more cohesive, and I think they need to look to the Marvel template for that, but that doesn't mean they have to flat out copy it.  I see long movies that give the impression of setting something up, but at the same time there seems to be no direction.  A lot of that has to do with the editing and making things needlessly complicated imo.

A small number of good movies with strong writers/directors and no interference from Warner Bros suits would be a great start, even if there's no underlying story yet. Unfortunately they seem to be intent on making way too many Margot Robbie movies because people love dressing up as her, and the new Wonder Woman was some over indulgent garbage. It's like they screw so much up that when they get some small thing right they try to build around it.

All that said, Joker was good and I'm hoping The Batman will be something special.

[Something Worse]

Sorry, maybe there's some confusion.

I didn't dislike the movie, nor did I say, or at least mean to imply, that they "rip" the Marvel template.  I just get the impression when I watch these films that they are trying to hard to be like Marvel without being Marvel - there's an attempt at some epic scope but it seems a random jumble to me because there doesn't appear to be anything underpinning it, as in the infinity stones.

I think there is more potential to stitch this thing together into something much more cohesive, and I think they need to look to the Marvel template for that, but that doesn't mean they have to flat out copy it.  I see long movies that give the impression of setting something up, but at the same time there seems to be no direction.  A lot of that has to do with the editing and making things needlessly complicated imo.

If you actually follow the Thanos/Infinity Stones through the Marvel movies, you'll realize it wasn't this planned out super plot but mostly just some shit they threw at the wall. Not something to aim for.

And again - you don't need to do that anyway. Agree with Schmidt that just giving directors a sandbox to play in is a far better outcome. I wouldn't have bothered with team ups and crossovers. Rather have a Joker every now and then than just the same movie with a different skin every 8 months.

[El Lobo]

Can't wait for the Wonder Woman 1984 'Snyder edit'

[red_Mark1980]

Can't wait for the Wonder Woman 1984 'Snyder edit'

567 hours long I've heard.

[redan]

I’m also in the minority who really likes the previous Snyder DCEU films so really pleased we’re getting the proper third part of that trilogy.

BvS Ultimate Edition is a good (albeit flawed film) but I do agree it tried too much. Introducing Batman, Wonder Woman, Lex Luther, Doomsday a lot of important secondary characters, as well as trying to be a MoS sequel and a JL set up film was too much, even for the three hour run time.

Agree they didn’t need to copy the Marvel formula but setting up an entire universe in the 2nd film is overly ambitious. BvS should have been one self contained film and then Dawn of Justice with Wonder Woman another IMO 

[Sheer Magnetism]

If you actually follow the Thanos/Infinity Stones through the Marvel movies, you'll realize it wasn't this planned out super plot but mostly just some shit they threw at the wall. Not something to aim for.

And again - you don't need to do that anyway. Agree with Schmidt that just giving directors a sandbox to play in is a far better outcome. I wouldn't have bothered with team ups and crossovers. Rather have a Joker every now and then than just the same movie with a different skin every 8 months.

That isn't true though, is it? Kevin Feige was overseeing things at Marvel and once Iron Man was a hit there was a concerted effort to link the films together. Avengers was in development before Iron Man's release and announced almost immediately afterwards.

The big difference is that Marvel was smart enough to give each character to a different director so their films initially felt different. DC gave everything to Snyder, who didn't respect the characters and who'd already shown with Watchmen that he was good at creating a 'dark' look but not with characters. In theory, Geoff Johns should be doing a similar supervisory job with DC, but it doesn't feel like he really has much power there.

Really, the best thing they could do is hand over the reins to Bruce Timm, who's already shown he knows the characters and knows how to build a universe onscreen, but that'll never happen.

[Something Worse]

That isn't true though, is it? Kevin Feige was overseeing things at Marvel and once Iron Man was a hit there was a concerted effort to link the films together. Avengers was in development before Iron Man's release and announced almost immediately afterwards.

The big difference is that Marvel was smart enough to give each character to a different director so their films initially felt different. DC gave everything to Snyder, who didn't respect the characters and who'd already shown with Watchmen that he was good at creating a 'dark' look but not with characters. In theory, Geoff Johns should be doing a similar supervisory job with DC, but it doesn't feel like he really has much power there.

Really, the best thing they could do is hand over the reins to Bruce Timm, who's already shown he knows the characters and knows how to build a universe onscreen, but that'll never happen.

I think "Thanos wants the infinity stones" was only ever a rough idea because there's too many plot holes and inconsistencies for it to be planned the way people think it was. All he did was lose them until he went and got them all in one movie.

I also disagree with giving each director a movie so they feel different - they all feel the same and directors who want to do something different end up quitting or being replaced.

It actually staggers me that Bruce Timm didn't get a bigger part to play. Nobody more qualified to set the tone and build a world for DC.

[AndyMuller]

I prefer what DC did with the Joker and just had a standalone film. Not everything needs to be involved in a universe, except the Fast & Furious films obviously.

[Something Worse]

I prefer what DC did with the Joker and just had a standalone film. Not everything needs to be involved in a universe, except the Fast & Furious films obviously.

Yeah that's what I wanted too! Marvel have the universe and their style and what not. DC goes the other way and gets as many great directors as possible to make movies that have loose connections if any. They've really mismanaged the whole thing.

[Schmidt]

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a connected DC universe, they just fucked up the current one in every way imaginable and now seem to be totally lost. They seem to be doubling down on Margot Robbie as Harley even though both movies she's been in have been shit, when instead they should be cutting their losses and building something new slowly. Nothing wrong with making Batman, Flash and Superman movies that are all unconnected initially but have some consistency in terms of visuals, then go from there.

[Red Beret]

If you actually follow the Thanos/Infinity Stones through the Marvel movies, you'll realize it wasn't this planned out super plot but mostly just some shit they threw at the wall. Not something to aim for.

And again - you don't need to do that anyway. Agree with Schmidt that just giving directors a sandbox to play in is a far better outcome. I wouldn't have bothered with team ups and crossovers. Rather have a Joker every now and then than just the same movie with a different skin every 8 months.

One minute you say don't copy Marvel, then you say, they just threw shit at the wall and see what stuck.  I'd say the latter more aptly describes DC, and that not a lot stuck.

I'm coming at this from the vantage point of a casual movie goer - the kind of person these movies have to appeal to beyond hard core fans of the franchise.  I find DC films convoluted and tedious, whereas Marvel films keep things simple and on point.  That's my experience.  You can't really debate my personal experience.  I'm explained myself on the matter as best I can, so I'll leave it there. 

EDIT: Case in point: I've not seen the Ant-Man or Guardians or Spiderverse films in the MCU; I've not seen Dr Strange or Captain Marvel, and only seen Ragnarok of the Thor films.  I've been able to dip in and out as I chose to and not lost anything from doing so.

[Sheer Magnetism]

I also disagree with giving each director a movie so they feel different - they all feel the same and directors who want to do something different end up quitting or being replaced.

They ended up feeling the same, but there was a genuinely different feel to the first batch. Iron Man was a high-tech action film, Thor was a Kenneth Branangh-directed fantasy with 'ye olde' style elements and the first Cap film was a straight-up WW2 tribute helmed by Joe 'Rocketeer' Johnston. It's no coincidence those three ended up being the emotional cornerstones of the franchise.

No argument that they've become formulaic now, though. The first GOTG and Black Panther felt like they had something a little more different, but I haven't bothered with the last few outside of the last couple of Avengers because they've generally become stale. In any case, I think we agree that DC should have ideally given their properties to Bruce Timm to oversee, with a range of directors taking charge of each character and giving them an individual feel.

[Something Worse]

They ended up feeling the same, but there was a genuinely different feel to the first batch. Iron Man was a high-tech action film, Thor was a Kenneth Branangh-directed fantasy with 'ye olde' style elements and the first Cap film was a straight-up WW2 tribute helmed by Joe 'Rocketeer' Johnston. It's no coincidence those three ended up being the emotional cornerstones of the franchise.

No argument that they've become formulaic now, though. The first GOTG and Black Panther felt like they had something a little more different, but I haven't bothered with the last few outside of the last couple of Avengers because they've generally become stale. In any case, I think we agree that DC should have ideally given their properties to Bruce Timm to oversee, with a range of directors taking charge of each character and giving them an individual feel.

Why change what's working I guess? The biggest movie of all time is directed by two guys they found directing commercials and a few episodes of a sitcom. Why pay (for argument's sake) Spielberg and have to deal with his demands when you can just get the next Colin Trevorrow to do what he's told?

That would be my ideal DC though. Spielberg's Superman, Cameron's Justice League, Scorsese's Joker and so on. Just give these guys the sandbox.

[AndyMuller]

I watched the two Burton Batman’s the past two nights. They don’t really hold up well at all these days. Keaton was a pretty poor Bruce Wayne often staring into space in scenes with his mouth open and not really saying much at all as Batman. Kim Basinger and Michelle Pfeiffer were both absolute stunners though.

[Red Viper]

I watched the two Burton Batman’s the past two nights. They don’t really hold up well at all these days. Keaton was a pretty poor Bruce Wayne often staring into space in scenes with his mouth open and not really saying much at all as Batman. Kim Basinger and Michelle Pfeiffer were both absolute stunners though.

Batman Returns is a weird film and definitely not the kind of superhero film that would get made nowadays. Batman's not even the main character in it which is funny, he must have about half the screen time as Penguin & Catwoman.

[AndyMuller]

Batman Returns is a weird film and definitely not the kind of superhero film that would get made nowadays. Batman's not even the main character in it which is funny, he must have about half the screen time as Penguin & Catwoman.

Mate I was 3 when it came out and remember watching it a couple years later as a kid. I can't believe how horny of a film it is. Penguin is a sex offender wanting to fuck everything and Catwoman is running around being sexy in a BDSM costume. 

I forgot, there is also an attempted rape scene. How the fuck was this a PG? 

[red_Mark1980]

Mate I was 3 when it came out and remember watching it a couple years later as a kid. I can't believe how horny of a film it is. Penguin is a sex offender wanting to fuck everything and Catwoman is running around being sexy in a BDSM costume. 

I forgot, there is also an attempted rape scene. How the fuck was this a PG? 

Still can't believe the Penguin army.

[AndyMuller]

Still can't believe the Penguin army.

Yes, ridiculous along with the Penguin funeral 

I watched Batman Forever last night. There is a lot of bad within this film but the absolute worst is Tommy Lee Jones as Two Face. He just laughs and fake cries his way through all of this acting like a knock off Jack Nicholson Joker. Horrific acting.

[red_Mark1980]

Yes, ridiculous along with the Penguin funeral 

I watched Batman Forever last night. There is a lot of bad within this film but the absolute worst is Tommy Lee Jones as Two Face. He just laughs and fake cries his way through all of this acting like a knock off Jack Nicholson Joker. Horrific acting.

I've seen Begins & Dark Knight are on Netflix from Monday...

[AndyMuller]

I've seen Begins & Dark Knight are on Netflix from Monday...

I'm watching Batman & Robin tonight then I am done with the caped crusader 

[Skeeve]

They were right to fast track it, they were right to let directors have their way (initially) and they were right to go the opposite direction to Marvel. They just got everything else wrong.

Actually no the casting was spot on too.

Fast tracking was a terrible idea, most of the characters would have drastically benefited from a setup movie, assuming there's some overall plan and consistency then letting directors have their way is fine and going in the opposite way to Marvel is a meaningless claim unless you define what you mean by Marvel's direction, but is still a stupid idea since even if you don't like everything Marvel have done, there's still plenty they did right unless you are some blinkered DC fan.

You got an origin story for Superman and Wonder Woman, did you feel like you really missed out on Batman's origin story?

The big three were the ones that didn't need origin movies, everyone else on the other hand...

[Something Worse]

Fast tracking was a terrible idea, most of the characters would have drastically benefited from a setup movie, assuming there's some overall plan and consistency then letting directors have their way is fine and going in the opposite way to Marvel is a meaningless claim unless you define what you mean by Marvel's direction, but is still a stupid idea since even if you don't like everything Marvel have done, there's still plenty they did right unless you are some blinkered DC fan.

Origin stories are only important for the mentally deficient. People who lack the ability to handle a story that hasn't been spoonfed to them like they're eleven. They did the other three stories in flashbacks and that's all you need. Aquaman talks to fish, Cyborg's dad fucked with a motherbox, Flash was struck by lightning. That's all anyone needs to know about any of them. Even in Aquaman's movie, the origin stuff was told as a flashback and the story itself was about him post-Justice League.

As for "going the opposite way to Marvel", again this is pretty obvious even if you are eleven. Marvel movies are all the same. Same aesthetic, same stories, every character is pretty much the same too. It's all about Kevin Feige, the directors themselves are just there to execute his vision. That's why they use the likes of the Russo brothers - guys who barely had any credits to their names before making these. To go the opposite direction would be to give the directors the power to make their own movie - that way you get something like Joker which is completely different to any other DC or Marvel movie. Let people do what they want with the characters, and then either for a random unconnected team up or don't even bother.

[El Lobo]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Fast tracking was a terrible idea, most of the characters would have drastically benefited from a setup movie, assuming there's some overall plan and consistency then letting directors have their way is fine and going in the opposite way to Marvel is a meaningless claim unless you define what you mean by Marvel's direction, but is still a stupid idea since even if you don't like everything Marvel have done, there's still plenty they did right unless you are some blinkered DC fan.


The big three were the ones that didn't need origin movies, everyone else on the other hand...

[Skeeve]

Origin stories are only important for the mentally deficient. People who lack the ability to handle a story that hasn't been spoonfed to them like they're eleven. They did the other three stories in flashbacks and that's all you need. Aquaman talks to fish, Cyborg's dad fucked with a motherbox, Flash was struck by lightning. That's all anyone needs to know about any of them. Even in Aquaman's movie, the origin stuff was told as a flashback and the story itself was about him post-Justice League.

I said setup movies rather than origin, which I'm sure only the "mentally deficient" would automatically equate to being the same thing, the issue was not that we didn't get to see them get their powers in an origin movie, it was that a lot of the potential audience knew fuckall about those other characters and they ended up being little more than more active scenery in the JL movie. Obviously, DC fans will be familiar with these characters, but for the longtime success of the DCEU, the audience needs to be more than just the fanboys who will go and see it anyway.

[Something Worse]

I said setup movies rather than origin, which I'm sure only the "mentally deficient" would automatically equate to being the same thing, the issue was not that we didn't get to see them get their powers in an origin movie, it was that a lot of the potential audience knew fuckall about those other characters and they ended up being little more than more active scenery in the JL movie. Obviously, DC fans will be familiar with these characters, but for the longtime success of the DCEU, the audience needs to be more than just the fanboys who will go and see it anyway.

So what better way to introduce them than to bring them into a movie with Batman and Superman and then give them a movie right after to focus on them? Like they did with Wonder Woman and Aquaman?

[Agent99]

https://deadline.com/2021/02/superman-reboot-in-the-works-at-warner-bros-with-ta-nehisi-coates-writing-j-j-abrams-producing-1234701922/

‘Superman’ Reboot In The Works At Warner Bros With Ta-Nehisi Coates Writing, J.J. Abrams Producing

[AndyMuller]

Just about to post that, another reboot!