Author Topic: The Klopp Template  (Read 1074905 times)

Offline Sharado

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6520 on: October 3, 2022, 11:41:05 pm »
Maybe Kloppo should bring in a hypnotist and that spoon bender to fix their heads.

It's finally Eileen drewerys time to shine
3 midfielders minimum in the next window. And probably another young CB to boot.

Anything else is negligent.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6521 on: October 3, 2022, 11:53:56 pm »
Maybe Kloppo should bring in a hypnotist and that spoon bender to fix their heads.

Nah Klopp is more of a Sven Bender kind of guy.
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Offline Machae

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6522 on: October 4, 2022, 12:01:31 am »
I would add Jones, Carvalho and Elliott if he gets back to pre injury levels to that list.

Carvalho and Elliot possibly. Still unsure about Jones

Arthur from his early form knows how to beat a press

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6523 on: October 4, 2022, 12:18:26 am »
Carvalho and Elliot possibly. Still unsure about Jones

Arthur from his early form knows how to beat a press

Jones's passing stats are off the charts. He is also really good at using his body to hold off players.
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Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6524 on: October 4, 2022, 12:33:04 am »
We went behind vs Villa, Villarreal, Spurs, Saints, Wolves and Real at the end of last season. That has continued this season. We were poor in most of those. Or certainly not at anywhere close to our best.

Except for the first 45 minutes against Villareal most of those were flukes though and just bad luck. The Southampton goal for instance, Redmond got lucky as shit and then they had 3 whole shots the rest of the game. We dominated in all of those games and that has not continued to this season.

I don't agree with the poster that we were bad for the last 10 games last season, at all, but we were poor against spurs, and at villa and Southampton away didn't look great, and it took us 82 mins to take the lead v wolves on the last day. We looked like a side hoping to fall over the line. 18/19 felt very different in that sense.

Poor in that we didn't just blow away an inferior opponent or poor in that we're a defensive sieve?  There's varying levels of poor.
« Last Edit: October 4, 2022, 12:34:57 am by Dave McCoy »

Offline Samie

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6525 on: October 4, 2022, 12:46:00 am »
Nah Klopp is more of a Sven Bender kind of guy.

 ;D

Your jokes do hit once in a while mate.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6526 on: October 4, 2022, 12:54:07 am »
We were not poor in the last 10 games of last season. Had a few dodgy moments but still looked ourselves and lets not forget put in relatively good performances in two finals.

Offline newterp

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6527 on: October 4, 2022, 02:58:44 am »
The last 10 games of last season where our record was 7-1-2 and the 3 that we dropped points in were either a random result or just one bad performance against Spurs? Yeah the struggling to end the season thing is in no way at the level of this season.

It's not the level of this season - and my point was that it started last season. We went behind regularly and struggled in multiple games. I'm willing to say that the result of a 63 game season - sure. But our midfield was huffing and puffing then too.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6528 on: October 4, 2022, 04:27:59 am »
Except for the first 45 minutes against Villareal most of those were flukes though and just bad luck. The Southampton goal for instance, Redmond got lucky as shit and then they had 3 whole shots the rest of the game. We dominated in all of those games and that has not continued to this season.
That's naive to think it's always to go behind in almost 75% is because of a fluke, 1-2 times, sure, but the majority of times then it's a structural issues at the system.
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6529 on: October 4, 2022, 07:30:20 am »
It's more likely the last few games of last season started to show the physical demands of playing every game catching up with us. That has unfortunately carried through to this season together with the mental fatigue of coming so close to winning the League and CL.

They haven't become bad players in the space of a few months.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6530 on: October 4, 2022, 07:35:14 am »
It's more likely the last few games of last season started to show the physical demands of playing every game catching up with us. That has unfortunately carried through to this season together with the mental fatigue of coming so close to winning the League and CL.

They haven't become bad players in the space of a few months.

Thing is, are physical stats not the easiest to measure? Fabinho, Henderson and Firmino put loads of effort in on Saturday but they were never in the right place, always losing second balls. Firmino's pressing was way off.

But you would think that this physical decline or toll we have taken would have manifested itself at some point in pre-season. Lets not forget that we had a few games when the transfer window was still open that we could see we were a yard off.

I think we have just got things badly wrong and clearly everybody will have to front up to their level of responsibility to that.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6531 on: October 4, 2022, 07:51:45 am »
Thing is, are physical stats not the easiest to measure? Fabinho, Henderson and Firmino put loads of effort in on Saturday but they were never in the right place, always losing second balls. Firmino's pressing was way off.

But you would think that this physical decline or toll we have taken would have manifested itself at some point in pre-season. Lets not forget that we had a few games when the transfer window was still open that we could see we were a yard off.

I think we have just got things badly wrong and clearly everybody will have to front up to their level of responsibility to that.
The pressing as a team is well off at the moment, we're pressing individually rather than as a team which is making us easy to play through and around. These players have been working with Klopp for years and they know when to press and what the triggers are, but it's not happening.

We've started this season with Matip, Konate, Jota, Thiago, Jones, Keita, AOC and Henderson all missing significant playing time through injury so we've not been able to rotate the team to keep it fresh, especially in midfield.

We have a complex system which requires the players to be in tune and on form for it to work and at the minute we're half a yard off everything. Again I refuse to believe these players are now suddenly bad and the system is broken. 

 
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Offline Egyptian36

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6532 on: October 4, 2022, 07:56:56 am »

Not the final 10 games of last season but the whole season. It's easy to forget because we challenged for everything but we had some clear issues. Our preparation for games looked different, I don't know how to explain it or if it does make sense but before it's like we had a universal way of defending that worked well with some little tweaks during games but since last season we needed to adjust more during games before we start to defend better. Also Fabinho weaknesses were highlighted more and it was clear going forward it's going to be an issues that need to be addressed. Same thing about the RCM position and TAA positioning. It's not a reaction to how we started this season, alot here were talking about these issues during the summer and the reliability of our midfieldes . Injuries, tiredness and other teams improving made these issues effect us more. We should have fixed them this summer but for whatever reason we didn't but I believe we will improve massively, the more opponent games we can analyze the more we improve.

Offline liverbloke

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6533 on: October 4, 2022, 08:02:28 am »
sorry to bring up the 'manchester' word here but when the utd kids were successful they didn't seem to have a chronic dip in form - obviously i haven't totally researched that not being a utd fan an all tha but they seemed to be winning trophies season after season

same with this current city lot - they don't seem to suffer from that same dip in form or got tired for playing 'too much football'

it's more than form methinks - it's a sum of all the things people have mentioned on this board: poor form is apparent (so yes), lack of decent signings, poor signings, age of team, tactics, reliance on certain players as if there are no other options

mental tiredness? i'd say nah - footballers (yes i am going to completely generalise here) are fitness machines not really known for their mental prowess

you don't lose a game or have poor form because one player is playing poorly or 2 players are playing poorly etc a team and a squad is made up of more than one or two of its parts

and yes you don't become a bad team overnight but gradually

it's not all disaster as all you need to do is strengthen the team/squad - as you would do naturally - and not wait until a team becomes unsuccessful as who wants to go to an unsuccessful team

the answer? move some players on and buy some new ones - who then? yeh that's where we're screwed a little
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6534 on: October 4, 2022, 08:15:22 am »
United from 92 were finishing with mid 70's to low 90's points and losing 5-8 games per season. They were generally challenged by one team like Villa, Blackburn, Newcastle or us and could outspend most of them. 

That team would be lucky to scrape into the top four the last few seasons. We now have a genuine top six and many of them outspend us and you need to win almost every game, we probably have the smallest pool of players to pick from also.
« Last Edit: October 4, 2022, 08:17:49 am by Funky_Gibbons »
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Offline liverbloke

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6535 on: October 4, 2022, 08:22:39 am »
you can only judge a team's success in the age that it was achieved - you cannot judge them against the teams of today

i was comparing utd in that era - same with city in this one

if our problem is simply that we haven't invested (spent) enough then we agree on that
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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6536 on: October 4, 2022, 08:22:55 am »
United from 92 were finishing with mid 70's to low 90's points and losing 5-8 games per season. They were generally challenged by one team like Villa, Blackburn, Newcastle or us and could outspend most of them. 

That team would be lucky to scrape into the top four the last few seasons. We now have a genuine top six and many of them outspend us and you need to win almost every game, we probably have the smallest pool of players to pick from also.

Thing is those United teams raised their levels when faced with a threat, particularly the ones from around when they had Ronaldo. The presence of Chelsea under Mourinho and us for that one season illustrates how top teams can push others to greater heights, thus I feel its a little bit wrong to just pluck that team out and say they would struggle now.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6537 on: October 4, 2022, 08:49:24 am »
Thing is those United teams raised their levels when faced with a threat, particularly the ones from around when they had Ronaldo. The presence of Chelsea under Mourinho and us for that one season illustrates how top teams can push others to greater heights, thus I feel its a little bit wrong to just pluck that team out and say they would struggle now.
So the only thing stopping that United team from getting +90-points every season like you need now is a lack of a challenge? Then that smacks of mental weakness then which makes it even less likely they'd have competed in this league. They're full-backs alone would never have made it in todays game.

We've just finished a season in which we played every game we could, only lost two games in the league and got to the Champions league final but didn't win either. it's naive to think that won't leave mental and physical scars.
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Offline liverbloke

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6538 on: October 4, 2022, 08:57:28 am »
So the only thing stopping that United team from getting +90-points every season like you need now is a lack of a challenge? Then that smacks of mental weakness then which makes it even less likely they'd have competed in this league. They're full-backs alone would never have made it in todays game.

We've just finished a season in which we played every game we could, only lost two games in the league and got to the Champions league final but didn't win either. it's naive to think that won't leave mental and physical scars.

mental scars? disappointment yes but unless they are philosophical about such things - the vast majority of players (yes i am generalising but having played myself at lower level myself (granted) i have experience of playing with many) aren't as deep about such things

physical scars - that's football you get kicked you get scars they're only flesh deep
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6539 on: October 4, 2022, 09:01:41 am »
mental scars? disappointment yes but unless they are philosophical about such things - the vast majority of players (yes i am generalising but having played myself at lower level myself (granted) i have experience of playing with many) aren't as deep about such things

physical scars - that's football you get kicked you get scars they're only flesh deep
Cool, so you must know all about losing a League and Champions League in the same season. 
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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6540 on: October 4, 2022, 09:11:08 am »
mental scars? disappointment yes but unless they are philosophical about such things - the vast majority of players (yes i am generalising but having played myself at lower level myself (granted) i have experience of playing with many) aren't as deep about such things

physical scars - that's football you get kicked you get scars they're only flesh deep

You seem to be thinking that professional footballers are robots who don't feel physical pain or mental disappointments when they have come so close season after season. Footballers are human just like us, they have their limits just like we have. The amount of football being played today is unprecedented with the number of competitions. No one can easily dismiss both the physical and mental scars that affect players when they come so close, season after season. That's even before you mention all the constant speculation about how City are being run even now.
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Offline liverbloke

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6541 on: October 4, 2022, 09:41:20 am »
Cool, so you must know all about losing a League and Champions League in the same season.

you're just being silly now - i'm making a judgement through my on experiences

You seem to be thinking that professional footballers are robots who don't feel physical pain or mental disappointments when they have come so close season after season. Footballers are human just like us, they have their limits just like we have. The amount of football being played today is unprecedented with the number of competitions. No one can easily dismiss both the physical and mental scars that affect players when they come so close, season after season. That's even before you mention all the constant speculation about how City are being run even now.

don't quote me on things that i didn't say - or 'think' as you've written

and no one is dismissing those things -i'm just giving another perspective that maybe (just maybe) footballers aren't as you (or Funky) seem to see them as

each one of them is an individual and many (not all as i did state) aren't as emotionally involved to the point where it causes them either depression or poor form

the problem isn't that - for me
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6542 on: October 4, 2022, 09:54:30 am »
mental scars? disappointment yes but unless they are philosophical about such things - the vast majority of players (yes i am generalising but having played myself at lower level myself (granted) i have experience of playing with many) aren't as deep about such things

physical scars - that's football you get kicked you get scars they're only flesh deep

:D
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6543 on: October 4, 2022, 09:57:07 am »
The thing that's got me a little over the past couple of days - when reading stuff online - is the idea that the 'problem' is any one single thing: the midfield, attitude, Trent, The Queen, Nunez, injuries, Klopp's loyalty (hate this one), Gini's non-replacement...and my fave...Pep's book!

If it was simply one of these things then you'd probably be able to remedy the problems fairly efficiently...or see the issue resolve itself if it was injuries, for example. I think there are a series of conflating issues that have culminated in the problems we're seeing.

The fan thing of jumping on today's 'scapegoat' is understandable as it can help make sense of complex factors that may be undetectable to the naked eye...or at least may be tough to compartmentalise in a neat self-contained tweet or post.

The odd thing is that we looked at the autumn fixture schedule and took a deep breath. But there's surely a benefit in playing regularly and working through the problems on the pitch. In 20/21 when it all went wrong, Klopp and his team worked out the issues by changing things across a phase of the season which resulted in a series of wins in the last 10 games or so. This saved the season in the end. Rhythm isn't a sole factor in all this but being able to diagnose problems probably happens best when matches are being played regularly.

Offline Sharado

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6544 on: October 4, 2022, 10:00:43 am »
Cool, so you must know all about losing a League and Champions League in the same season.

I can't speak for the players but I would have liked another month, at least, off before this season started. I'm still not 100% into it now. It drained the absolute life out of me.
3 midfielders minimum in the next window. And probably another young CB to boot.

Anything else is negligent.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6545 on: October 4, 2022, 10:01:50 am »
you're just being silly now - i'm making a judgement through my on experiences

don't quote me on things that i didn't say - or 'think' as you've written

and no one is dismissing those things -i'm just giving another perspective that maybe (just maybe) footballers aren't as you (or Funky) seem to see them as

each one of them is an individual and many (not all as i did state) aren't as emotionally involved to the point where it causes them either depression or poor form

the problem isn't that - for me
They should probbaly just 'man up'  ::)

Anyway, I've just finished decorating my living room so I'm off to the Tate to critique their paintings based on my experience.
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Offline liverbloke

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6546 on: October 4, 2022, 10:04:35 am »
:D

so i'm being honest about my experiences (that's a good thing surely) and offering my opinion - ain't that the point of a forum or have i got that wrong?

They should probbaly just 'man up'  ::)

Anyway, I've just finished decorating my living room so I'm off to the Tate to critique their paintings based on my experience.

another trite response - well done you
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6547 on: October 4, 2022, 10:09:49 am »
so i'm being honest about my experiences (that's a good thing surely) and offering my opinion - ain't that the point of a forum or have i got that wrong?

:D

Quote
mental scars? disappointment yes but unless they are philosophical about such things - the vast majority of players (yes i am generalising but having played myself at lower level myself (granted) i have experience of playing with many) aren't as deep about such things

physical scars - that's football you get kicked you get scars they're only flesh deep

You dont see what an absolutely hilarious 'opinion' that is? The vast majority of players you played with at a lower level (whatever that is, I also suspect...probably not true, just my opinion) dont have mental scars if they have bad losses. And you've transferred that over to include players at the very top of the game who were pretty much three kicks of a football away from immortality a few months before they had to go again. Its a bit like saying I'm not sure why Daniel Day-Lewis says acting is hard, when I was in Dick Whittington as a kid it wasn't hard at all.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline liverbloke

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6548 on: October 4, 2022, 10:13:56 am »
:D

You dont see what an absolutely hilarious 'opinion' that is? The vast majority of players you played with at a lower level (whatever that is, I also suspect...probably not true, just my opinion) dont have mental scars if they have bad losses. And you've transferred that over to include players at the very top of the game who were pretty much three kicks of a football away from immortality a few months before they had to go again. Its a bit like saying I'm not sure why Daniel Day-Lewis says acting is hard, when I was in Dick Whittington as a kid it wasn't hard at all.

so now i'm a liar - i could call you a c*nt does that make it true?

i'm offering my insights in what it's like to lose and feel disappointment at a lower level of the game - of course that would be magnified at a higher level but not (to me - do you understand that) to the extent of players not performing 'at the highest fucking level'

you're analogy is just that - anal

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Offline El Lobo

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6549 on: October 4, 2022, 10:17:58 am »
so now i'm a liar - i could call you a c*nt does that make it true?

i'm offering my insights in what it's like to lose and feel disappointment at a lower level of the game - of course that would be magnified at a higher level but not (to me - do you understand that) to the extent of players not performing 'at the highest fucking level'

you're analogy is just that - anal

Absolutely :)

We all understand what you're saying, its just nonsense is all.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6550 on: October 4, 2022, 10:21:04 am »
so now i'm a liar - i could call you a c*nt does that make it true?

i'm offering my insights in what it's like to lose and feel disappointment at a lower level of the game - of course that would be magnified at a higher level but not (to me - do you understand that) to the extent of players not performing 'at the highest fucking level'

you're analogy is just that - anal

These guys love taking things to the most ridiculous extreme on this forum and most unlike you probably haven’t even kicked a football 😂

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6551 on: October 4, 2022, 10:25:50 am »
So the only thing stopping that United team from getting +90-points every season like you need now is a lack of a challenge? Then that smacks of mental weakness then which makes it even less likely they'd have competed in this league. They're full-backs alone would never have made it in todays game.

We've just finished a season in which we played every game we could, only lost two games in the league and got to the Champions league final but didn't win either. it's naive to think that won't leave mental and physical scars.

How is that mental weakness? You do as much as you need to in order to win. City got ‘only’ mid 80’s in terms of points in 20/21 with nobody pushing them, is that mental weakness.

Also i was talking about around the 2007 and 2008 teams when they had some of the best players of the last 20 or 30 years.

As for mental scars, perhaps, but we will never know. It could be an issue, which if it is means that we need to make more wholesale personnel changes in future transfer windows. The harsh reality is if they are scared and they will never recover, then we need new players.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6552 on: October 4, 2022, 10:27:24 am »
Klopp in his recent pressers has compared this to the time we lost our defence a couple seasons ago..

We sorted it then and we'll sort it again with more personnel coming back quicker, in comparison to that season for sure. There's many reasons we are in this situation, I don't think anyone thinks its just one thing...just like the transfer thing - i don't think anyone wants massive changes as just a few can lift a group (see Diaz in Jan). But we can't do anything about that now

We were feeling our way into games a lot last season in the first half, and we aren't able to do that because we keep going a goal down which isn't helping the team with low confidence as it is. Address that first to allow us to implement our game plans again, keep taking steps and we'll get there. Granted, it's taken longer than anyone would have hoped but we are where we are



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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6553 on: October 4, 2022, 10:30:50 am »
Absolutely :)

We all understand what you're saying, its just nonsense is all.

nonsense that players can deal with disappointment differently from what you think they can?

and does that also mean that most posts on here that you (sorry 'we') disagree with are nonsense - o-kay

i think most players are not affected to the degree that you obviously do and i stand by that

fair enough through my experiences - oh is it true? we'll never know  ::) - but that is what i think

why did we lose 3-0 boss - oh you're all depressed
phew that's a relief
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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6554 on: October 4, 2022, 10:32:13 am »
Klopp in his recent pressers has compared this to the time we lost our defence a couple seasons ago..

We sorted it then and we'll sort it again with more personnel coming back quicker, in comparison to that season for sure. There's many reasons we are in this situation, I don't think anyone thinks its just one thing...just like the transfer thing - i don't think anyone wants massive changes as just a few can lift a group (see Diaz in Jan). But we can't do anything about that now

We were feeling our way into games a lot last season in the first half, and we aren't able to do that because we keep going a goal down which isn't helping the team with low confidence as it is. Address that first to allow us to implement our game plans again, keep taking steps and we'll get there. Granted, it's taken longer than anyone would have hoped but we are where we are

The year we lost the defence we started the next with six Barclays Premier League Proven Center Backs. If anything, the response from FSG is likely to be swift and over the top.
You're all too fucking serious, the lot of you. Relax, we don't really matter.

Oh, and we should have an in's and out's topic, stickied.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6555 on: October 4, 2022, 10:33:06 am »
nonsense that players can deal with disappointment differently from what you think they can?

You honestly dont see the irony in what you're saying do you? :D
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6556 on: October 4, 2022, 10:37:32 am »
You honestly dont see the irony in what you're saying do you? :D

i understand the cat and dead mouse analogy of this forum - but you're just meh
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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6557 on: October 4, 2022, 11:06:32 am »
The year we lost the defence we started the next with six Barclays Premier League Proven Center Backs. If anything, the response from FSG is likely to be swift and over the top.

Not sure that is true. We had VVD, Matip and Gomez as proven Premier League centre backs. We then added Ibou who had never been in the PL.

We kept Phillips around as cover but that was only because VVD, Gomez and Matip were coming back from injury

Even calling Phillips premier League proven is a bit of a stretch considering he went on loan to the Championship.

Williams went on loan to Swansea.
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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6558 on: October 4, 2022, 12:18:22 pm »
Not sure that is true. We had VVD, Matip and Gomez as proven Premier League centre backs. We then added Ibou who had never been in the PL.

We kept Phillips around as cover but that was only because VVD, Gomez and Matip were coming back from injury

Even calling Phillips premier League proven is a bit of a stretch considering he went on loan to the Championship.

Williams went on loan to Swansea.

Well yes, sorry, 5 premier league proven CBs and a new signing at CB were all on our books.
You're all too fucking serious, the lot of you. Relax, we don't really matter.

Oh, and we should have an in's and out's topic, stickied.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6559 on: October 4, 2022, 12:21:14 pm »
VVD and Matip had to re-prove themselves after injury so dont think you can call them PL proven. And Gomez was our primary RB back-up so can't be considered in our CB roster.

So essentially we just had Nat Phillips. They didn't learn a thing
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.