Author Topic: The Klopp Template  (Read 1075397 times)

Offline BobPaisley3

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6200 on: September 8, 2022, 06:08:58 am »
Just playing devils advocate here, but;

Fabinho 52 mill
Keita 55 mill
Ox 40 mill
Thiago 20 mill
 
That’s a pretty big chunk of money on midfield. FSG might argue why over 100 mill was spent on 3 players who aren’t robust enough to play over 30 intense games a season like a Wijnaldum can (who cost 25mill)
Thiago aside, those lads came in 17 and ‘18. At least four years ago.
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Offline lukeb1981

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6201 on: September 8, 2022, 06:12:41 am »
Trying to fit in Elliott and Nunez into the same template as the last 7 years won't work
Although Elliott is a talented lad he is currently busy doing noting in midfield - he is not creating and he is certainly not defending or counter pressing ,it is just not working playing him in midfield. We need to pray Thiago stays fit and Melo can get himself match fit because the midfield is a shambles at the moment. I know its not Jurgens style but he needs to hammer the owners on the lack of investment - he will have the supporters backing on it- playing a kid and a 38 year old in such an important game is a disgrace considering we are one of the richest clubs in the world.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6202 on: September 8, 2022, 06:16:42 am »
Just playing devils advocate here, but;

Fabinho 52 mill
Keita 55 mill
Ox 40 mill
Thiago 20 mill
 
That’s a pretty big chunk of money on midfield. FSG might argue why over 100 mill was spent on 3 players who aren’t robust enough to play over 30 intense games a season like a Wijnaldum can (who cost 25mill)

There is some merit to that thinking certainly. We have 9 (yes nine) out and out midfielders and that doesnt include Bajetic, Carvalho etc. Out of those 9 only 2 are youngsters and that is Elliott and Jones. Therefore we have 7 midfielders, 6 of whom are full internationals and one is Milner.

That is absolutely ludicrous. 9 senior midfielders and we still needed more. I know we have been unlucky in a few cases (Keita being injury prone here being the most unlucky) and some of them we have had from before Klopp, but currently its a huge waste of resources. I dont know what Milner is now on or what we are paying Arthur but excluding Arthur and taking into account Milner’s last deal, we may have 6 players on £100k a week and more.

Offline Guz-kop

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6203 on: September 8, 2022, 06:57:47 am »
Absolutely, which once again comes down to the lack of depth in midfield. 

Having to play a 36-year old on one side and a 19-year old on the other is not ideal. Even with Thiago coming back we really need re;ying on Arthur hitting the ground running. 

But defensively we look all over the place too. Trent and Gomez on the RHS look vulnerable with every attack down that side.

Theyve always looked vulnerable but we've been happy to play that way because the job our midfield did (peak Henderson, Fabinho, Gini and Milner) was callosal. Up and down the pitch to pressure the ball high but also able to cover full backs and eventually get back to support our central defenders who were covering 1v1. It's hugely high risk football but also high reward because our full backs and front three have been able to provide most of the creativity. But if you can't pressure the ball when you lose it when you're just left with even more vulnerability. It's a real harsh one on both milner as his legs have gone and Elliot because he's being asked to play a massive role which physically and tactically is one of the hardest in world football because of how much we demand of them. Medium term we have the tools in midfield if they are fit but if they're not enough. In games like last night we ought to take a more defensive mindset and just sit deep for 15 minutes and ride out the pressure. Beyond that I'm not sure. It's not as easy as pundits say of just dropping the line back because everything is geared to getting creativity and high pressure from the full backs.
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Offline plura

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6204 on: September 8, 2022, 07:40:10 am »
Just playing devils advocate here, but;

Fabinho 52 mill
Keita 55 mill
Ox 40 mill
Thiago 20 mill
 
That’s a pretty big chunk of money on midfield. FSG might argue why over 100 mill was spent on 3 players who aren’t robust enough to play over 30 intense games a season like a Wijnaldum can (who cost 25mill)

Sure nothing wrong with arguing that. But I'd like to think as business people they understand that not everything can be 100% win. You will make some decisions that won't go your way. Even with perfect planning you can't foresee some things, like Keita's injury records. And then other things just don't play out the way you hoped, like with Ox. He was in and out of Arsenal, had lots of injuries, etc. So there the risk didn't pay off, well not as well as hoped. He has still played a role for us.

Either way, it have been obvious for some time now that neither Ox or Keita was to rely on that much. So those two out of the 9 could be discounted. Add that an ageing Henderson and Milner, two players that rely on their running, pressing and engines that have grown older and can't do what they're meant to do anymore. So another two players out of that 9 were not 100% percent reliable, or up to the standards of a PL-winning team.

Five left out of nine, and you then have Elliott and Jones two younger players that hasn't 100% established themselves. And only Fabinho and Thiago to me this season was up to the standards when you compare midfield to other top teams. And Thiago has always been injured a fair bit.

So yes you could have asked more from Ox and Keita perhaps. But the situation was there, obvious to most and I don't know why we didn't buy another player. I don't know if it was impossible offload Ox and Keita? But you can't say it wasn't obvious that there were too many risks in the midfield.

Offline RedKenWah

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6205 on: September 8, 2022, 07:49:48 am »
Simple fact for me is this summer we were banking on getting that midfielder and didn’t have a plan b. That said player decided to join Real Madrid instead of us and that has been costly by not using the time to find an alternative midfielder to bring in now. We can chuck Jude Bellingham’s name in the mix but if he’s going to be £100m+ next summer then why not attempt to buy him now if he’s meant to be the next transfer window plan A? The way the season is going for us right now we might not have European football to offer and if another of the big clubs out there do and gazzump us money wise then yet again we could end up losing another plan A target.

I do think FSG are at fault but I would also say the club as a whole are also to blame for this and we can see the impacts this season.

I don’t also get why are players are knackered already either? Yes I know the way we play under Klopp is high intensity but Christ surely they have built themselves up to the required level this season with the competitive games already. Is it also a case of our pre seasons we need to seriously consider binning off this global tour and instead have a training camp in Evian for 2/3/4 weeks straight and get them up to speed? I know there is the whole money spinning aspects and those fans overseas having an opportunity to see their team in the flesh but bigger picture team wise?

Offline Sharado

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6206 on: September 8, 2022, 07:52:05 am »

Fabinho 52 mill - 2018
Keita 55 mill - 2018
Ox 40 mill - 2017
Thiago 20 mill - 2020, aged 29
 

Just added dates we signed them [and in Thiago's case his age]. If FSG [and appreciate you're playing devils advocate] wanted to grumble about outlay on these lads look at when we signed them. After 4/5 years [in the majority of cases there] you'd expect players to have given you a fair crack of the whip. There is zero angle, or argument, for me at least that we don't desperately need midfield refreshment.
3 midfielders minimum in the next window. And probably another young CB to boot.

Anything else is negligent.

Offline Chris~

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6207 on: September 8, 2022, 07:53:38 am »

I don’t also get why are players are knackered already either? Yes I know the way we play under Klopp is high intensity but Christ surely they have built themselves up to the required level this season with the competitive games already. Is it also a case of our pre seasons we need to seriously consider binning off this global tour and instead have a training camp in Evian for 2/3/4 weeks straight and get them up to speed? I know there is the whole money spinning aspects and those fans overseas having an opportunity to see their team in the flesh but bigger picture team wise?
We've done tours before and not looked this fatigued and plenty other clubs went away as well. In an ideal World I'm sure Klopp wouldn't want us doing it but we've incorporated it in the past easy enough and so have other sides.

Offline decosabute

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6208 on: September 8, 2022, 08:05:05 am »
We've done tours before and not looked this fatigued and plenty other clubs went away as well. In an ideal World I'm sure Klopp wouldn't want us doing it but we've incorporated it in the past easy enough and so have other sides.

Yeah this is true. Klopp clearly doesn't regard the Asian tours as ideal, but how long were we actually in Thailand for? 5 days or something? Spurs went to Korea, City and Arsenal went to the US, even fucking United also went to Asia at the same time as us, and all those teams are doing well and don't look physically smashed. We still had weeks of more traditional preparation time (which is where I believe we've actually fucked up and overdone it) and can't just use it as an excuse. I think we've just flogged the players too hard, whilst simultaneously trying to change too much and dealing with a lot of injuries. Too many problems to deal with all at once, but most of it is our own fault.

Offline Knight

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6209 on: September 8, 2022, 08:15:14 am »
Just added dates we signed them [and in Thiago's case his age]. If FSG [and appreciate you're playing devils advocate] wanted to grumble about outlay on these lads look at when we signed them. After 4/5 years [in the majority of cases there] you'd expect players to have given you a fair crack of the whip. There is zero angle, or argument, for me at least that we don't desperately need midfield refreshment.

Plus we desperately needed reinforcement in midfield when Fabinho and Keita came in. We did spend quite heavily on Fab, Ox and Keita but our midfield was poor, relative to the quality elsewhere, before we did that. And we’re now moving into the 5th season since Fab and Keita came and 6th since Ox came. With 2 of those we’ve known for at least 2 seasons that we wouldn’t be able to rely on them to be the long term successors to Gini, Henderson and Milner.

This is a pointless discussion at this point. There may have been a debate over the summer but this start has demonstrated the reality that we were desperate for midfield reinforcements in the summer.
« Last Edit: September 8, 2022, 08:16:54 am by Knight »

Offline Bergersrightwingviews

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6210 on: September 8, 2022, 08:30:53 am »
Okay we obviously aren't going to be winning the league or European cup this season so hopefully Jurgen uses the season to get rid of the dead wood and bring through the kids. Also no more screwing around by FSG, please please back the manager and he'll get us back challanging next season again.

Makes sense. If it’s a transitional season then let’s actually use it to transition and not just paper over the cracks. I’m not sure whether we have many midfield prospects who can do what we need but if we think we do let’s give them game time.
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Offline scouse neapolitan

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6211 on: September 8, 2022, 08:35:58 am »
Fatigue is definitely a factor. A tough pre-season , new ideas and injuries are all having an effect. Napoli and the red Mancs have won the September Cup but we'll be there in the mix in May. Players will be back from injury, others will find their form but it still doesn't mean that we shouldn't have bought a proven midfield player when our first choice went to Real. Great to see us being written off in September. Some of you will be too young to remember when the late great Gerald Sinstadt closed his Friday night Granada football show with the song "The party's over" after a dismal couple of weeks for the reds. Others with better memories Will remember the exact details. The party wasn't over and the Reds had a brilliant season. Don't we just thrive on these situations!! Look at the homecoming last season. That's what we've got to give the team now.

Offline redk84

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6212 on: September 8, 2022, 09:33:33 am »
It's hard to see but this is temporary I believe - if problems keep on mounting on like BIG injuries etc then that could change.

But atm - we have started poorly and are being hesitant on the pitch trying to play a brand of football that is direct and brave. It's been a bit of a disaster and hurt us at times

But big picture is we are only 5 points off the top of the PL (or City should I say who will be top soon) - and we have lost 1 group game in CL.
Thiago is back, as is Nunez and Jota - that's healthy reinforcements.
Arthur will be playing from the get-go it seems so there's that too...
I don't know what is happening with Keita/Curtis???
But they need to not be AWOL right now too
We have to start performing better...may need a little luck to get some results strung together and this will look better and so will confidence. Up until now we have not prepared well for the season from the look of the lads and how lethargic they look. It has cost us a bit, fine. Now we put it right.

Klopp from his interview seems to accept this and looked a bit bewildered by that performance/result yesterday and hopefully so are the players. They need a kick up the arse.


All hands on deck stuff really, and I am sure that's the message being put across internally - part of what makes Klopp great is how he handle situations. Let's watch him work
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Offline Cormack Snr

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6213 on: September 8, 2022, 10:08:06 am »
We could of quite easy had our Manchester United moment if Klopp had decided to leave in the summer, if say Gerrard had come in or someone else, we would have still been in this mess, and it would have been Fergie leaving Utd all over again.
Fergie was ready to go and saw the writing all the wall, Klopp had us competing on all fronts last season and could have left at the very top considering his lack of funds going forward.
We must have made more money than any other team in the world in the past five years or even close to it and we have acted like paupers.
It has been the case that we have played near enough the same team for about four years and when we don't play our very best team, we are never at our best.
I have said on here quite often that we should have moved on Henderson, Milner, Keita and Ox two years ago and got in someone special but who are I to know, I have only been watching Liverpool Football Club since the sixties and like they say about men with sex, think about them from the moment I wake up to the moment I go asleep.

Offline lionel_messias

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6214 on: September 8, 2022, 10:24:47 am »
We could of quite easy had our Manchester United moment if Klopp had decided to leave in the summer, if say Gerrard had come in or someone else, we would have still been in this mess, and it would have been Fergie leaving Utd all over again.
Fergie was ready to go and saw the writing all the wall, Klopp had us competing on all fronts last season and could have left at the very top considering his lack of funds going forward.
We must have made more money than any other team in the world in the past five years or even close to it and we have acted like paupers.
It has been the case that we have played near enough the same team for about four years and when we don't play our very best team, we are never at our best.
I have said on here quite often that we should have moved on Henderson, Milner, Keita and Ox two years ago and got in someone special but who are I to know, I have only been watching Liverpool Football Club since the sixties and like they say about men with sex, think about them from the moment I wake up to the moment I go asleep.

You are spot on and your wisdom from the 60s/70s is true now: move on players
before they decline, and replace them with young, hungry players. This was the Liverpool way
and also adopted by Alex Ferguson over there.
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Offline plura

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6215 on: September 8, 2022, 10:51:03 am »
It's hard to see but this is temporary I believe - if problems keep on mounting on like BIG injuries etc then that could change.

But atm - we have started poorly and are being hesitant on the pitch trying to play a brand of football that is direct and brave. It's been a bit of a disaster and hurt us at times

But big picture is we are only 5 points off the top of the PL (or City should I say who will be top soon) - and we have lost 1 group game in CL.
Thiago is back, as is Nunez and Jota - that's healthy reinforcements.
Arthur will be playing from the get-go it seems so there's that too...
I don't know what is happening with Keita/Curtis???
But they need to not be AWOL right now too
We have to start performing better...may need a little luck to get some results strung together and this will look better and so will confidence. Up until now we have not prepared well for the season from the look of the lads and how lethargic they look. It has cost us a bit, fine. Now we put it right.

Klopp from his interview seems to accept this and looked a bit bewildered by that performance/result yesterday and hopefully so are the players. They need a kick up the arse.


All hands on deck stuff really, and I am sure that's the message being put across internally - part of what makes Klopp great is how he handle situations. Let's watch him work

For this season and finishing in the top 4 you're right. We just need to get players back from injuries, get new players like Nunez and Arthur adjusted, etc and I think we will make it. We got enough experience and talent still in the team.
For me the main thing is the progression of the team, we are currently what I'm feeling a lack of excitement, a lack of young players coming in with both talent and hunger. And also lacking in pace. We are in need of a bit of a revamp in the team.

Like Cormack mentioned I also think we should have started with it maybe even two seasons ago. So that we could bed new players in bit by bit. Not having the need for that bigger overhaul and get 3-5 new senior players in next summer.

Klopp mentioned that he might need to take more risks at time, same perhaps goes for the owners. Replacing players before they get too old (Milner and Henderson), before it gets too late with injuries (Keita and Ox), etc.

Offline Cormack Snr

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6216 on: September 8, 2022, 10:52:10 am »
It was Shankly's downfall keeping players past their best, but it was different times. We were in the wilderness in 67,68,69 and 70 until we started getting back on track in the 71-cup final

Offline OOS

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6217 on: September 8, 2022, 10:55:58 am »
You are spot on and your wisdom from the 60s/70s is true now: move on players
before they decline, and replace them with young, hungry players. This was the Liverpool way
and also adopted by Alex Ferguson over there.

Klopp is ruthless in moving on players. However, it costs a fortune to bring in new players. We are buying players before they peak, enjoying thier peak years and discarding them once they are on the way down. Gone of the days of worrying about resale value, why would a team that wants to win stuff worry about resale value?! You want to keep your best players during thier peak years, cos they win stuff.  ;D

Klopp sounds likes he going back to the drawing board, and we may see a change of how we set up and play. Patience is needed, get through this run of games and we will be alright.
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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6218 on: September 8, 2022, 11:03:55 am »
Klopp is ruthless in moving on players. However, it costs a fortune to bring in new players. We are buying players before they peak, enjoying thier peak years and discarding them once they are on the way down. Gone of the days of worrying about resale value, why would a team that wants to win stuff worry about resale value?! You want to keep your best players during thier peak years, cos they win stuff.  ;D

Klopp sounds likes he going back to the drawing board, and we may see a change of how we set up and play. Patience is needed, get through this run of games and we will be alright.

Good post, I agree with this.
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Offline harleydanger

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6219 on: September 8, 2022, 11:10:05 am »
It won’t be rock bottom until we hear the Trent in midfield calls hit a crescendo
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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6220 on: September 8, 2022, 11:12:24 am »
It won’t be rock bottom until we hear the Trent in midfield calls hit a crescendo

We really need a viable right back alternative. Along with Salah theres a lack of cover down that right side.which leaves them both not rotated and undroppable.
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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6221 on: September 8, 2022, 11:13:50 am »
We really need a viable right back alternative. Along with Salah theres a lack of cover down that right side.

When it rains it pours, Ramsay hasn't had a chance to show anything given he got injured right away. Trent knows he's comfortable in that position in more ways than one and it shows. At least Kostas on the left is a viable alternative to Robertson right now.

Offline Chris~

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6222 on: September 8, 2022, 11:18:54 am »
We really need a viable right back alternative. Along with Salah theres a lack of cover down that right side.which leaves them both not rotated and undroppable.
If we had a right back alternative I don't think Trent plays much less. We've seen it with Robertson and Tsimikas. Over the last two seasons Robertson has played about 200 more minutes than Trent and this season has played every game.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6223 on: September 8, 2022, 11:20:34 am »
If we had a right back alternative I don't think Trent plays much less. We've seen it with Robertson and Tsimikas. Over the last two seasons Robertson has played about 200 more minutes than Trent and this season has played every game.

Tsimikas played the derby, and not sure why he didn't keep his place. I think Robertson hasn't hit form for quite a while now, and Tsimikas seems to play well every time he gets a start.
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Offline Chris~

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6224 on: September 8, 2022, 11:27:37 am »
Tsimikas played the derby, and not sure why he didn't keep his place. I think Robertson hasn't hit form for quite a while now, and Tsimikas seems to play well every time he gets a start.


Robertson still came on in that game, Trent got subbed off. Tsimikas probably doesn't start more because Klopp trusts Robertson a lot and when you're at this level you're going to need some players to play a lot of minutes every season they can.

This is kind of my point, Tsimikas could have started more in that he's seen as a viable alternative, he hasn't though over the last 2 years and Robertson is looking like having a drop off in form as well. Having a right footed Tsimikas wouldn't have reduced how much Trent would have played on the last couple years (and probably not this) based on the evidence of what's happened at left back.

Offline daniel.owen89

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6225 on: September 8, 2022, 11:54:39 am »
Would like to see a change to 4-2-3-1 in an aim to make us more solid and get salah closer to goal.

              Ali
Trent matip vvd tsimkas
          Fab Thiago
Elliot   Fabio   diaz
             Salah

As mentioned gets salah close to goal
Fab and Thiago can sit in and give us a bit more protection
Put less responsibility on Elliot to cover Trent without removing it completely
Elliot and Fabio have shown good chemistry and effort
Finally it leaves real option from the bench in Nunez jota and bobby with bobby capable of coming into the 10

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6226 on: September 8, 2022, 11:56:40 am »
Just playing devils advocate here, but;

Fabinho 52 mill
Keita 55 mill
Ox 40 mill
Thiago 20 mill
 
That’s a pretty big chunk of money on midfield. FSG might argue why over 100 mill was spent on 3 players who aren’t robust enough to play over 30 intense games a season like a Wijnaldum can (who cost 25mill)

They can’t use that argument with Keita though (not that I guess they would be using it) - he barely had issues pre- Liverpool. Maybe a fair enough question with Thiago, but I guess at 20 mill, adding him to what was one of the best teams in Europe, it was seen as a luxury worth taking.  The argument with Ox, was that they are too nice as a club to give him a new contract after he suffered an awful injury.

Offline Fromola

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6227 on: September 8, 2022, 12:02:50 pm »

Robertson still came on in that game, Trent got subbed off. Tsimikas probably doesn't start more because Klopp trusts Robertson a lot and when you're at this level you're going to need some players to play a lot of minutes every season they can.

This is kind of my point, Tsimikas could have started more in that he's seen as a viable alternative, he hasn't though over the last 2 years and Robertson is looking like having a drop off in form as well. Having a right footed Tsimikas wouldn't have reduced how much Trent would have played on the last couple years (and probably not this) based on the evidence of what's happened at left back.

At least if you had a Tsimikas at RB if Trent is having a shocker he can be subbed off (and when he's bad he's really bad). What options did we have yesterday? And we felt the need to take Trent off in the derby and then Milner gets the runaround which saw us lose any control of the game and nearly lose it.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline redk84

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6228 on: September 8, 2022, 12:08:42 pm »
For this season and finishing in the top 4 you're right. We just need to get players back from injuries, get new players like Nunez and Arthur adjusted, etc and I think we will make it. We got enough experience and talent still in the team.
For me the main thing is the progression of the team, we are currently what I'm feeling a lack of excitement, a lack of young players coming in with both talent and hunger. And also lacking in pace. We are in need of a bit of a revamp in the team.

Like Cormack mentioned I also think we should have started with it maybe even two seasons ago. So that we could bed new players in bit by bit. Not having the need for that bigger overhaul and get 3-5 new senior players in next summer.

Klopp mentioned that he might need to take more risks at time, same perhaps goes for the owners. Replacing players before they get too old (Milner and Henderson), before it gets too late with injuries (Keita and Ox), etc.

I get you...and yes I was strictly talking about this season we're currently in.
I don't mean this as a slight to you or any others as I feel the same frustration, but I don't think there's any point going on about transfers until the window opens.

We have not evolved the midfield well enough since Gini left, I've thought this for a while too.
I think we've done well with our front line...
I think in terms of our defence we have been pretty spot on too...cover for Trent apart.

I do not think many would argue against these points - and yes hindsight is 20/20 but these were developing issues over the past season or two that may now seem bigger because they weren't addressed early. I don't think Klopp and whoever in our hierarchy maters weren't aware of these problems, maybe put misplaced faith in some players (maybe also the ability of our fitness team to get players to be more robust?) and we were unlucky with injuries or form or whatever but shit has happened...we were never gonna get transfers at such a good hit-rate as we seemed to be having for a few years forever- and I think maybe this is what Klopp was referring to when he was talking about risks. So here we are

Where I say that this situation is temporary, means that I don't think it's just top 4 we can go for now and that's that, you may not have meant this either...as I honestly think we will sort our shit out and that is in the bag. I'm talking about top 2, maybe City will have to get a mini crisis of their own....or we could just beat them home and away which we are capable of and there's 6 points eaten up right there who knows?

Before all that tho, the problem at hand is how we are performing...and for most of these matches recently we are not getting the execution or energy levels right. Something is off, and we seem out of sorts at times.
Last night was an almighty mess in the first half so I do not think that represents us in the whole season - kind of like an anomaly. The majority just seemed to give up.
But we have to get back to atleast showing our quality for the majority of the 90 minutes against let's face it...lesser opposition. And showing our teeth again, like in that Bournemouth game.
Starting again this weekend, and we go from there
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Offline The_Nomad

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6229 on: September 8, 2022, 03:12:59 pm »
The Wolves pre-match thread isn’t up so l’m posting this here. Instead of being all demoralised and doom and gloom, l for one am looking forward to Klopp and the boys bouncing back in the next match with a much improved performance and hopefully a win! 💪🏾😃
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Offline JasonF

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6230 on: September 8, 2022, 03:21:13 pm »
Tsimikas played the derby, and not sure why he didn't keep his place. I think Robertson hasn't hit form for quite a while now, and Tsimikas seems to play well every time he gets a start.

Tsimikas had no pre-season (similar injury to what Konaté has apparently) so that'll be why his minutes are being managed carefully.

Offline jepovic

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6231 on: September 8, 2022, 03:27:11 pm »
Short term, it's hard to understand why this squad went from one of the best teams in the world to this in a matter of months. Lack of signings doesn't explain this free fall, especially from some of our best players.

Long term, I unfortunately think we are in midst of a transition into a new era of football. There was a big change when PL started, and TV money became more important than ticket sales. Now, we are moving into the oil era, where huges sums of money from the owners has become necessary to win major titles. I think it could take many years before a non-oil state club wins PL again, and CL will probably go the same route soon.

The next era in 10-20 years would probably some sort of closed European super league, US-style, where clubs are moved around to whatever city offers the nicest free stadium and best tax benefits. Obviously, the middle east would be defined as Europe. For instance, I could see Man United be based in Dubai, in a stadium placed near the airport for convenient transport of the fans.

Personally, Liverpool getting bought by some oil prince would be the end. Titles are not that important.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6232 on: September 8, 2022, 03:28:06 pm »
It was Shankly's downfall keeping players past their best, but it was different times. We were in the wilderness in 67,68,69 and 70 until we started getting back on track in the 71-cup final

That’s the double edged sword of being a great man manager and motivator. You build that personal bond with players who want to run through brick walls for you, until age catches up with them and they can’t. Then the very quality that you have as a manager to make these players die for you - loyalty and trust - end up being tested as a player once great starts to decline.

I would think you have to be almost robotic as a character when it comes to deciding to get rid, and can’t be easy when you are such a people person. It is that quality which makes the likes of Paisley and Ferguson top level.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6233 on: September 8, 2022, 03:42:30 pm »
It was Shankly's downfall keeping players past their best, but it was different times. We were in the wilderness in 67,68,69 and 70 until we started getting back on track in the 71-cup final
Maybe now he's hinted at not enough risk taking, he'll take a lead from the great man and threaten to resign if he doesn't get the backing he wants. Apparently it used to be an almost monthly occurance under Shanks.

Offline StL-Dono

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6234 on: September 8, 2022, 03:44:52 pm »
Short term, it's hard to understand why this squad went from one of the best teams in the world to this in a matter of months. Lack of signings doesn't explain this free fall, especially from some of our best players.

Long term, I unfortunately think we are in midst of a transition into a new era of football. There was a big change when PL started, and TV money became more important than ticket sales. Now, we are moving into the oil era, where huges sums of money from the owners has become necessary to win major titles. I think it could take many years before a non-oil state club wins PL again, and CL will probably go the same route soon.

The next era in 10-20 years would probably some sort of closed European super league, US-style, where clubs are moved around to whatever city offers the nicest free stadium and best tax benefits. Obviously, the middle east would be defined as Europe. For instance, I could see Man United be based in Dubai, in a stadium placed near the airport for convenient transport of the fans.

Personally, Liverpool getting bought by some oil prince would be the end. Titles are not that important.

I agree with this, especially the bolded part. 

It does seem baffling how so many players can at the same time all be so far below levels we've watched them perform at in the past.  And, I'm not talking about 2022 Milner not being as good as 2019 Milner.  It's more like Sept 2022 TAA and VVD and Mo and Hendo and Robbo and Fabinho and Gomez being shockingly worse than their versions from six months ago. 

Still, the injuries have killed us in the sense that there's been little continuity from one match to the next and that impacts the ability to get the newer players integrated.

I trust in Klopp though to sort it.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6235 on: September 8, 2022, 04:11:05 pm »
Start actually playing with two centre mids, a standard role for Trent at rb, play to Salah's reduced physicality these days by keeping him near the box to finish moves and we'll improve the performance levels, compete properly. Right now the set-up, and tactics are failing the players.

Rated Arthur quite highly before his injuries, lack of fit at the previous clubs...if we can rediscover that version we have an excellent ball player who was actually quite mobile, useful defensively at his best. Don't know how much he's lost physically though, haven't kept track of him. Give him and Thiago a go at the base in a 4-2-3-1.

Both Elliot and Carvalho are no 10s, not centre mids in a flat three on the early evidence so far. Give Nunez a go leading the line. Give him a run of games, a season, we'll know by then if there's a long term future for him. Far too early to write him off. It's the risk if you're a relatively poor footballer but can contribute in other ways, as it was with Kuyt, Carra etc, they'll get more scrutiny, have less of a margin of safety, to contribute.

Don't mind the staff trying these things tactically, but clearly the execution, the training that's gone into mechanising the new movements was poor if even Klopp has come out and said we were too wide, not compact enough. Not a one-off either, it's a pattern at this point, the only exception was when Hendo played more central and deeper against Bournemouth, supporting Fabinho.


Offline naYoRHa2b

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6236 on: September 8, 2022, 04:26:02 pm »
There's no real reason why we are so fatigued both mentally and physically. You can lack a bit of fitness or sharpness but this almost looks deliberate to look so disinterested.

These footballers are fit, even if they aren't 100 percent they can more than easily do 90 minutes, they can't even do 5 minutes so I really don't think it's a fitness thing, even though it looks lethargic.

Milner I get, he's still working hard but he's a yard late to everything which he's going to be.

Allison still looks fine, as does Harvey and Diaz seems okay. Nobody else seems okay, which is way too many, it's too much of a coincidence. We can't even replace many of them because we have too many injuries. The only players that deserve to keep their place that started the other night are Ali, Eliott (but not as a 8 ) and Diaz. Nobody else is showing anything close to a Liverpool player.

Offline xbugawugax

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6237 on: September 8, 2022, 04:40:02 pm »
Klopp is ruthless in moving on players. However, it costs a fortune to bring in new players. We are buying players before they peak, enjoying thier peak years and discarding them once they are on the way down. Gone of the days of worrying about resale value, why would a team that wants to win stuff worry about resale value?! You want to keep your best players during thier peak years, cos they win stuff.  ;D

Klopp sounds likes he going back to the drawing board, and we may see a change of how we set up and play. Patience is needed, get through this run of games and we will be alright.

if he was we wouldn't be in this mess. Not sure if his hands are tied or he is just too loyal to his players which is not such a bad thing after players giving their all for him. Milner, hendo, ox and keita would have been flogged off long before their decline. We could have recouped a decent sum and saved on wages which we are burning on players that are perpetually in the treatment room.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6238 on: September 8, 2022, 04:43:06 pm »
There's no real reason why we are so fatigued both mentally and physically. You can lack a bit of fitness or sharpness but this almost looks deliberate to look so disinterested.

These footballers are fit, even if they aren't 100 percent they can more than easily do 90 minutes, they can't even do 5 minutes so I really don't think it's a fitness thing, even though it looks lethargic.

Milner I get, he's still working hard but he's a yard late to everything which he's going to be.

Allison still looks fine, as does Harvey and Diaz seems okay. Nobody else seems okay, which is way too many, it's too much of a coincidence. We can't even replace many of them because we have too many injuries. The only players that deserve to keep their place that started the other night are Ali, Eliott (but not as a 8 ) and Diaz. Nobody else is showing anything close to a Liverpool player.

I know we joke about amateur physios and amateur psychiatrists....but wow :D

There is no real reason we are so fatigued both mentally and physically? Really? I mean.....playing every game last season? Mental toll from last season? Shortened break pre-season due to the WC in December? Injuries meaning others are having to play every game? And to talk about this group of players as deliberately looking disinterested.... Incredible.

Alisson (goalkeeper), Harvey and Diaz (both barely played for us in the grand scheme of things) are the only three who seem ok? Well isn't that quite the coincidence :duh
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Fromola

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6239 on: September 8, 2022, 04:52:47 pm »
if he was we wouldn't be in this mess. Not sure if his hands are tied or he is just too loyal to his players which is not such a bad thing after players giving their all for him. Milner, hendo, ox and keita would have been flogged off long before their decline. We could have recouped a decent sum and saved on wages which we are burning on players that are perpetually in the treatment room.

The fans can be as well though. When Henderson was in the press demanding a new contract last year with 2 years still to run, presumably via his agent, fans were kicking off demanding FSG give him what he want (and i'm sure Klopp lobbied for it as well).

It's not a new thing either. Gerrard and Carragher stayed way too long and should have been phased out earlier, particularly Carragher, because either the manager didn't have the authority to move them on from the club, or the perception was the fans wouldn't accept it and we delayed getting proper replacements in. Even when they finally left it was their own decision.

It's always difficult to part with legends. Mane and Wijnaldum left on their own terms. Bobby and Milner probably will next year.

It's Ox and Keita we should have been ruthless with this summer. I said when Milner was renewed it can't be at the expense of strengthening the midfield now.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season