Topic: Tiger Woods - Greatest Sportsman Ever?

[Henry Kissinger]

Anyway, fuck Tom Brady.

Shades of the transfer thread there mate.   

[Ray K]

Oh there they go. There they go, every time I start talkin 'bout boxing, a white man got to pull Rocky Marciano out their ass.

He beat Joe Louis's ass.

[Crosby Nick]

Oh there they go. There they go, every time I start talkin 'bout boxing, a white man got to pull Rocky Marciano out their ass.

He beat Joe Louis’s ass.

Haha piss off Ray!

[Qston]

Anyway on the subject of left field options I’ll submit Courtney Dauwalter. Just for the sake of discussion and because there are almost no women being mentioned.

Is that because the thread title is Sportsman ? Or am I opening a can of worms here that can never be shut - especially if women are involved

[Something Worse]

All great examples, but I would argue that any sport that doesn't reach a true global audience is by it's very nature not impactful enough culturally to have the greatest sportsperson of all time as part of it's ranks. Stuff like swimming and rowing just isn't popular enough whereby the best athletes have a huge cultural impact purely through their performance in the competition.

Yup. And size of the talent pool is a big thing too. How many people play golf vs American Football vs tennis vs football?

It's got to be Messi or Maradona or whoever. American sports are out, so are rich people sports. That leaves football and maybe cricket?

[Crosby Nick]

Yup. And size of the talent pool is a big thing too. How many people play golf vs American Football vs tennis vs football?

It's got to be Messi or Maradona or whoever. American sports are out, so are rich people sports. That leaves football and maybe cricket?

Athletics?

[Drinks Sangria]

Yup. And size of the talent pool is a big thing too. How many people play golf vs American Football vs tennis vs football?

It's got to be Messi or Maradona or whoever. American sports are out, so are rich people sports. That leaves football and maybe cricket?

Football, Boxing or Athletics in my mind. Cricket is massively followed and globally, but there's a massive amount of the world who just don't care or follow the sport. Almost half the planet tune in for the Olympics and a third of the planet for the world cup, boxing in it's heyday got billions for individual games - cultural significance and popularity has to have some say in the debate.

[Gods_Left_Boot]

If we're talking pure dominance and greatness in their sport, it's extremely difficult to make comparisons between different sports and disciplines, it's already difficult enough to decide on the all time great for each sport. In a more general conversation that also include cultural and social impact and stature, it has to be Ali.

[Something Worse]

Athletics?

Football, Boxing or Athletics in my mind. Cricket is massively followed and globally, but there's a massive amount of the world who just don't care or follow the sport. Almost half the planet tune in for the Olympics and a third of the planet for the world cup, boxing in it's heyday got billions for individual games - cultural significance and popularity has to have some say in the debate.

I always forget about athletics because I don't watch it but absolutely yeah.

Not sure about boxing, but since so many champs have been historically poor there's a good argument to be made there.

It's probably easier to say Bolt or Ali over Messi since they're individual sports not team sports too.

[rushyman]

Needs to be a sport surely

Not something retired old doctors are good at

[El Lobo]

A name you dont see very often in this sort of thing is Hulk Hogan, but if you consider how he transitioned from professional wrestling into MMA (No Holds Barred and Rocky III) and powerboat racing he's got to be up there.

[Something Worse]

A name you dont see very often in this sort of thing is Hulk Hogan, but if you consider how he transitioned from professional wrestling into MMA (No Holds Barred and Rocky III) and powerboat racing he's got to be up there.

A true polyglot, pushes him ahead of Flair despite the latter's 16 World Championships.

[Drinks Sangria]

I always forget about athletics because I don't watch it but absolutely yeah.

Not sure about boxing, but since so many champs have been historically poor there's a good argument to be made there.

It's probably easier to say Bolt or Ali over Messi since they're individual sports not team sports too.

Boxing is a weird one because it has the biggest ebb and flow between being massively popular and completely ignored by all but hardcore watchers. It does however, occasionally, have the capability to attract a mass-casual audience. It hasn't had massive sustained popularity since the 90s though recently. It's had a bit of a resurgence - in popularity, not in quality of the sport.

Athletics again is an odd one. The Diamond League literally has the greatest collection of super human talents competing in the world, but barely anyone watches. The World Championships fare better (despite the quality being higher than that of the Olympics because of the way qualification works and no restrictions on the amount of representation from one nation) but the Olympics just have this massive cultural significance that resonates with the entire world - for one month in summer, once every four years, people are glued to the Olmypics and compelled to watch a bunch of mad shit for hours on end that they would never normally watch were it on TV in isolation as it's own sport - curling, archery, dressage etc.

Football, unlike the others, has maintained a consistent wide popularity and in a lot of countries, is hugely culturally significant. In my country, it's oddly seen as the go-to 'masculine' conversation. It's what most lads at work bring up to me (they know I'm footy mad but I'm big into plenty of other things) as default conversation. That's societal relevance.

[Lee1-6Liv]

Needs to be a sport surely

Not something retired old doctors are good at

Might as well add Phil Taylor to the list.

[paulrazor]

Might as well add Phil Taylor to the list.

considering his achievements why not

A name you dont see very often in this sort of thing is Hulk Hogan, but if you consider how he transitioned from professional wrestling into MMA (No Holds Barred and Rocky III) and powerboat racing he's got to be up there.

as much as i once loved wrestling and as much as i loved hogan and how much an icon he is can sport really cover wrestling?

can of worms opened

[rushyman]

Might as well add Phil Taylor to the list.

Oh I do

Far more so

[Ray K]

A name you dont see very often in this sort of thing is Hulk Hogan, but if you consider how he transitioned from professional wrestling into MMA (No Holds Barred and Rocky III) and powerboat racing he's got to be up there.

Absolute horseshit man. Come on.


He lost to the Ultimate Warrior in Wrestlemania VI.   Jordan never lost on the biggest stage.

[rob1966]

Valentino Rossi is the first of the global superstars in MotoGP, huge global fanbase, Rossi areas at GP's, huge amount of merchandise sold, 9 world titles and also very very quick in an F1 car and a rally car. However, then along came Marc Marquez, 8 World Titles by the age of 26, youngest ever to win 3, 4, 5 ,6, 7 and 8 titles, won MotoGP title in his first season, has now won it 6 times and gets away with stuff on track that have mere mortals eating gravel.

[Drinks Sangria]

Valentino Rossi is the first of the global superstars in MotoGP, huge global fanbase, Rossi areas at GP's, huge amount of merchandise sold, 9 world titles and also very very quick in an F1 car and a rally car. However, then along came Marc Marquez, 8 World Titles by the age of 26, youngest ever to win 3, 4, 5 ,6, 7 and 8 titles, won MotoGP title in his first season, has now won it 6 times and gets away with stuff on track that have mere mortals eating gravel.

Massive respect for his achievements and the way he made MotoGP more 'trendy.' Having said that, he is literally the only rider I could name.

[nuts100]

To name a few that are better

Ali
Sugar Ray
Carl Lewis
Jesse Owens
Usain Bolt
Pele
Messi
Ronaldo
Hagler
Michael Johnson
Jordon
Le Bron
Larry Bird
Babe Ruth
Federer
Nadal
Serena Williams
Martina Navratilova
Steffi Graff

I could go on

Woods isn't even the greatest golfer of all time. Has he transcended sports, yes - but not even the best in his field. Nope still not having it

[Drinks Sangria]

Woods isn't even the greatest golfer of all time. Has he transcended sports, yes - but not even the best in his field. Nope still not having it

For me, the bolded bit is equally as important. Nicklaus didn't really transcend his Sport and Woods is a legitimate shout as one of the greatest golfers of all time.

I keep coming back to Ali and Bolt personally. Something has to be said for being the fastest man on the planet across two distances, setting World Records at the Olympics in front of an audience in the billions. He truly transcended his sport.

Personally I'm more impressed by Van Niekerk's 400 or Kipchoge's sub-2 hour marathon (yes I know not legit marathon but still, biomechanically it's insane) but I couldn't argue that either has transcended their sport.

[Samie]

Wayde van Niekerk 400m world record and David Rudisha's 800m world records are something else. 

[Drinks Sangria]

Wayde van Niekerk 400m world record and David Rudisha's 800m world records are something else. 

Having done some 800m in my teens, I have massive respect for Rudisha - the vilest distance on the track going. My coach used to say - run 400m, balls out, leave nothing out there - then hang on and do it again.

400m you're within shot of the end after 30 odd seconds of horrendous effort, but 800m invites you to burn out and empty your guts about 600m in. Awful distance.

[nuts100]

Having done some 800m in my teens, I have massive respect for Rudisha - the vilest distance on the track going. My coach used to say - run 400m, balls out, leave nothing out there - then hang on and do it again.

400m you're within shot of the end after 30 odd seconds of horrendous effort, but 800m invites you to burn out and empty your guts about 600m in. Awful distance.

Agreed at 600meters you were puffing like a steam train
400m flat out was hard enough, 800 was a bastard

[BER]

To name a few that are better

Ali
Sugar Ray
Carl Lewis
Jesse Owens
Usain Bolt
Pele
Messi
Ronaldo
Hagler
Michael Johnson
Jordon
Le Bron
Larry Bird
Babe Ruth
Federer
Nadal
Serena Williams
Martina Navratilova
Steffi Graff

I could go on

Woods isn't even the greatest golfer of all time. Has he transcended sports, yes - but not even the best in his field. Nope still not having it

Jon Jones would beat the shit out of all of them.   

[Something Worse]

Jon Jones would beat the shit out of all of them.   

Not even the best athlete in his family!

[Max_powers]

Gretzky and Bradman standout in their respective sports.

Where most athletes mentioned here are merely just slightly better than than the next best players in their sports.  For example in football people will argue about whether Messi, Pele, or Mardonna is the GOAT. Same in golf, tennis etc.

Gretzky has almost 2900 points in NHL, the next highest player is at ~1900 and that is Jagr who played at a very high level into his mid 40's. A 100 point season typically makes you one of the top 2-3 players in the league. You would have to do that for 29 years straight to beat Gretzky's record.

Bradman's batting average is almost double most of the other elite batsmen today.

[kasperoff]

Michael Jordan. Watch 'The Last Dance' and you will know what I'm talking about.

Jordan is definitely in the conversation. Imagine having peak, Steven Gerrard 2005 Champions League final levels of effort, talent, desire and determination in every game over a 10 year period.

[fowlermagic]

went by achievements

armstrong won a lot

tainted maybe? but i can tell you he isnt the only one on that list that was controversial


to tie in with others, a lot of sport there doesnt grab the attention, rowing for instance, i am not even a fan of it myself

but i would still tip my hat to steven redgrave for winning gold in 5 straight olympics

i just picked a lot off the top of my head

apologise in advance for not including sports like ice hockey, American Football, baseball and basketball who have many many icons, i dont really know enough about them sports

True as Armstrong was no more roided up than Brady or Jordan as if high school stars in the States are on steroids you know virtually every pro has dabbled in them. Jordan was no saint either as probably cheated and gambled his way through life. So did Woods and his PR guys get a gold statue for making him marketable again.

[rob1966]

Massive respect for his achievements and the way he made MotoGP more 'trendy.' Having said that, he is literally the only rider I could name.

It is a shame that MotoGP and bikes in general is ignored. Its a great sport to watch, the racing in Moto3 is non stop action from the first lap, the riders are all nuts. Last season was great without Marquez as we had loads of different winners and then Joan Mir won the title for Suzuki.

I was reading up the Suzuki GSX-RR  this morning and how riders styles are in general. With them all using the same tyres, you've got 280bhp/220 mph bikes set to give enough wheelspin from the rear to allow the bike to be turned yet still accelerate. The super slow mo as they have the bikes at 60/65 degree lean angle, sliding the rear, leaving huge black lines while pinning the throttle is brilliant.

The riders are massively talented, pushing the limits while dancing with death. Bit tougher than twatting an aerodynamic ball in a straight line down manicured lawns with a club.

[Samie]

If you want to go niche, then there's Marcel Hirscher in Alpine Skiing. 

[paulrazor]

True as Armstrong was no more roided up than Brady or Jordan as if high school stars in the States are on steroids you know virtually every pro has dabbled in them. Jordan was no saint either as probably cheated and gambled his way through life. So did Woods and his PR guys get a gold statue for making him marketable again.

they made mistakes but at same time society cant get on their high horse to downgrade what they have achieved

Woods personally and physically had to rebuild himself, it was sad watching him hardly able to walk on the course at times doubled over in pain, I was never a big fan but i think theres a mentality amongst us we dont like the regular winners who win all the time when they are not our favorite.

I felt this with stephen hendry for instance but when they stop winning and pack in i am sometimes sorry i didnt appreciate it. When you see them a shadow of themselves it humanizes them and you suddenly feel caught up in a comeback story like Woods winning the masters. It was great.

Controversy does take them down or peg or two whatever way you look at it, Nicklaus probably edges it for majors and less of the negative stuff

[Persephone]

Gymnast Simone Biles deserves a shout, she's so good that's they're naming moves after her because she's the only person on the planet who can do them.

[Something Worse]

Gymnast Simone Biles deserves a shout, she's so good that's they're naming moves after her because she's the only person on the planet who can do them.

Talent pool again, IMO.

[Persephone]

Talent pool again, IMO.

I get what you're saying but pretty much every country in the world does gymnastics so in terms of global reach it is pretty large. My point is that if Brady can be routed as GOAT I'd venture that there are quite a few that deserve the title ahead of him. Especially with the nature of single person sports v team sports.

[Something Worse]

I get what you're saying but pretty much every country in the world does gymnastics so in terms of global reach it is pretty large. My point is that if Brady can be routed as GOAT I'd venture that there are quite a few that deserve the title ahead of him. Especially with the nature of single person sports v team sports.

You have to be tiny to be a successful gymnast, and massive to be a successful NFL player. Both are out IMO, are are all basketball players. It's really just football or athletics (track and field).

[BarryCrocker]

Shout out to Paavo Nurmi.

Nurmi set 22 official world records at distances between 1,500m and 20km, and won nine gold and three silver medals in his twelve events in the Summer Olympic Games. At his peak, Nurmi was undefeated for 121 races at distances from 800m upwards.

Throughout his 14-year career, he remained unbeaten in cross country events and the 10,000m.

[fowlermagic]

they made mistakes but at same time society cant get on their high horse to downgrade what they have achieved

Woods personally and physically had to rebuild himself, it was sad watching him hardly able to walk on the course at times doubled over in pain, I was never a big fan but i think theres a mentality amongst us we dont like the regular winners who win all the time when they are not our favorite.

I felt this with stephen hendry for instance but when they stop winning and pack in i am sometimes sorry i didnt appreciate it. When you see them a shadow of themselves it humanizes them and you suddenly feel caught up in a comeback story like Woods winning the masters. It was great.

Controversy does take them down or peg or two whatever way you look at it, Nicklaus probably edges it for majors and less of the negative stuff

Not sure its a high horse attitude as its hard to put Tiger on that pedestal again knowing everything. Especially with the easy access to info today as I cant imagine the crap Tigers kids have gotten off others about Woods off the course shenanigans. Love him as a golfer, its an amazing comeback and career but his kids or grandkids spouses will always have reservations about Tiger the man. Perhaps I should just ignore all that as its their gig to deal with and just honour Tiger the golfer as he was one of the best. I cannot see the PGA giving him the honour of Captaining the Ryder Cup team due to his history but then again Nicklaus is a Trumpite which surely is worse Woods, Nicklaus or Hogan? Take your pick as best golfer ever.

[paulrazor]

I'm sure he will captain a Ryder cup team

He has done in presidents cup

Insane to think he's only been part of one Ryder cup winning team

Has he won one of his last 8 matches on an individual level? Nuts

That's for another thread though

[Persephone]

You have to be tiny to be a successful gymnast, and massive to be a successful NFL player. Both are out IMO, are are all basketball players. It's really just football or athletics (track and field).

Dunno if you can just discount NBA and gymnasts just because of their physical attributes. I get the NFL monster athlete aspect mainly because they majority of them don't even touch the ball. They exist purely to stop the opposition. NBA athletes require a huge amount of skill, same as gymnasts. You can be tiny and no way suitable to the sport.

I honestly don't think there is such a thing as a GOAT of all sports, nor can you compare different generations. I am think we should just appreciate the quality we get to witness and be grateful we've gotten to see legends while they play whichever sport they grace.