Topic: Naby Keita Watch

[Original]

I thought he played really well...guess I'm alone in that.

Me too, thought he was very good first half and maybe dropped off a bit in the second which I suppose could be entirely down to him having to escape a military coup in his own country whilst on international duty which may have had a tiny adverse affect on his rest and recuperation

[ScouserAtHeart]

Anyone else get the feeling he seems to be holding himself back and not going 100%?

[scatman]

Anyone else get the feeling he seems to be holding himself back and not going 100%?

It's more he's playing the role he's been told to. He doesn't drive forward as much, he's like Gini. It's been noticeable since preseason to be honest.

[lamonti]

Anyone else get the feeling he seems to be holding himself back and not going 100%?

Maybe he's wary of getting another muscle injury niggle.

Wouldn't land anything particularly at his feet for last night, everyone got loose after 30.

[Welshred]

I thought he played really well...guess I'm alone in that.

Nope not alone, thought he was fantastic.

[dutchkop]

I thought he played really well...guess I'm alone in that.

I think he did well last night - hopefully gets better  - stays fit and helps us win more games . He will get a lot more chances this season. 

Interested to see who starts vs Palace him or Hendo this weekend?

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I think he did well last night - hopefully gets better  - stays fit and helps us win more games . He will get a lot more chances this season. 

Interested to see who starts vs Palace him or Hendo this weekend?

Thiago in for Keita. That's our first choice midfield by a distance, although Harvey was certainly giving Jurgen something to think about on that front.

[Oskar]

Aside from those few minutes where we collectively fell to pieces, thought he was great last night.

I've been really happy with the start he's made to this season, just needs to stay fit now.

[spider-neil]

I think we've seen enough of him now to know that we are definitely easier to play through when he is in the team - lovely feet and player to watch at times but he doesn't offer enough to offset that big drawback to be in our first XI.

Decent Thiago back-up to have though!

Nonsense. Naby contributed to Milan not being able to get out of their own half (literally) for the first 40 minutes.

[wemmick]

Me too, thought he was very good first half and maybe dropped off a bit in the second which I suppose could be entirely down to him having to escape a military coup in his own country whilst on international duty which may have had a tiny adverse affect on his rest and recuperation

He is also just a bit like Lallana in this sense. Naby is a pressing machine, but his stamina falls off after the hour mark. I remember Lallana being exactly the same and Klopp had a lot of faith in him.

I think we expect too much from Keita sometimes. The team is rolling right now and he has started 3 of 5 matches. We aren't winning in spite of him.   

[wemmick]

I think we've seen enough of him now to know that we are definitely easier to play through when he is in the team - lovely feet and player to watch at times but he doesn't offer enough to offset that big drawback to be in our first XI.

Decent Thiago back-up to have though!

But Keita plays on the left. How many goals conceded have originated down that side when he is in the team? We've conceded 2 and scored 8 in the matches he has started this season, and neither of Milan's goals originated down the left.

[Dave McCoy]

This is where I am, well for 90% of the time. The other 10% reminds me we paid £54m for him, and let’s be honest, we all expected a little bit more.

Which while this is true the worst case scenario seems to be he's a passable squad player for the length of his contract.  There certainly could have been worse outcomes and at times seemed there would be.

[Ghost Town]

But Keita plays on the left. How many goals conceded have originated down that side when he is in the team? We've conceded 2 and scored 8 in the matches he has started this season, and neither of Milan's goals originated down the left.

He's an easy target for people's unspecified dissatisfaction that we aren't winning every game 5-0.

Let's not beat about the bush: a number of people want him gone for having the temerity to get injured and lose his originally planned starting place - and as Kloppo has himself said it's very hard to break back into this team - and because they feel he's blocking them getting their transfer fix via a shiny new midfielder.

He'll always be blamed for something when he's on the pitch.

[drirfan]

He was excellent last night

[JC the Messiah]

Seems that Keita brings out digital opinions. He's either shit or he's the best ever.

I thought he was very good in spurts, but then was a bit of a passenger. No agenda, in fact I'd love him to come good long term.

[Angelius]

Yeah, I thought he was great last night. With Hendo as the number 8, it's obvious what his role was in that midfield. As Roy said, it's the Gini role - he was one of the critical reasons for how we played in the first half. Goals not his fault, more a collective thing of both the defense dropping and midfield being too high.

Would still like to see him in the 8 role with Thiago and Fab playing behind. But suspect we might not see that with our other options in midfield.

[afc tukrish]

Seems that Keita brings out digital opinions. He's either shit or he's the best ever.

Narrative Keita

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Nonsense. Naby contributed to Milan not being able to get out of their own half (literally) for the first 40 minutes.

There's nothing wrong with his pressing. It's his lack of tracking runners and plugging space which is the issue. The two or three timid tackles each game don't help that perception either.

[iamnant]

He's better than a lot of people give him credit for but not as good as some people think. I'm a big fan but he really needs to grasp his chances this season, especially with Gini gone and now Elliot injured.

[RainbowFlick]

he was always very hyped for his dribbling technique and ability to pass players, but I'm yet to be convinced really

[PoetryInMotion]

There's nothing wrong with his pressing. It's his lack of tracking runners and plugging space which is the issue. The two or three timid tackles each game don't help that perception either.

Utter bollocks about his tackles. And he's really disciplined, he's almost a Gini now. There's no general problem in his defending whatsoever.

[PoetryInMotion]

he was always very hyped for his dribbling technique and ability to pass players, but I'm yet to be convinced really

He has given up his attacking game to be a Klopp midfielder.

[Knight]

He has given up his attacking game to be a Klopp midfielder.

I think this is right but it's also a little weird. I have the same question with Jones a little as well. Or at least the concern. Sometimes we do need our 8s to bring more to break down a low block but some of Keita's attacking dynamism seems to have been coached out of him. And given we paid a huge premium on Keita because he was elite defensively AND offensively (rather than just defensively) it does make you wonder why we even signed him in the first place.

That said, it's a tiny concern because assuming we're back to our best there'll probably be 3/4 games this season where we need more from our 8s in an attacking sense.

[PoetryInMotion]

I think this is right but it's also a little weird. I have the same question with Jones a little as well. Or at least the concern. Sometimes we do need our 8s to bring more to break down a low block but some of Keita's attacking dynamism seems to have been coached out of him. And given we paid a huge premium on Keita because he was elite defensively AND offensively (rather than just defensively) it does make you wonder why we even signed him in the first place.

That said, it's a tiny concern because assuming we're back to our best there'll probably be 3/4 games this season where we need more from our 8s in an attacking sense.

Yeah, Jones too. Initially we saw Jones bubbling around going forward a lot, and then over the course of the last two seasons, he started to be more defensively disciplined.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

You would think people would have faith in the coaching staff given their success. If players have been coached into certain things, theres a reason for it.

[Ghost Town]

I think this is right but it's also a little weird. I have the same question with Jones a little as well. Or at least the concern. Sometimes we do need our 8s to bring more to break down a low block but some of Keita's attacking dynamism seems to have been coached out of him. And given we paid a huge premium on Keita because he was elite defensively AND offensively (rather than just defensively) it does make you wonder why we even signed him in the first place.

The answer is not that hard to see. Things change and the best coaches have flexibility, know a good thing when it happens and build upon it. Keita was bought before the current power midfield had properly established itself. He was almost certainly bought to provide that vertical movement and thrust and dribbling and all those things he was known for, in what would have been a different midfield deployment than the one we have since habitually used.

Remember our first interest in him was before Coutinho left, and we tried (unsuccessfully) to bring forward his move immediately after Coutinho's January transfer in order to plug that gap. He was intended to be the improvement upon Coutinho: forward minded, creative but also tactically more disciplined and useful in the press and the breaking of play.

Unfortunately for him, but maybe fortunately for us as it has turned out, he got injured shortly after arriving and that's when the power midfield really established itself, along with Trent and Robbo being far more influential in the attack than anyone had anticipated. And that's why Keita found it harder to break back in even when he was fit again, and why he has had to bide his time. The very style of our play had changed. It worked and Klopp stuck with it.

These things happen. The good news for him is that with Gini gone there are now some hints that Klopp wants to tweak the midfiled deployment again (hence the unexpected promtion of Harvey to a starting spot). All being well Keita will get more games now, in the Gini role and maybe in a more attacking role in certain games.

[Asam]

If he stays fit there’s no doubt the coaching staff can make him into a much better player, his performance was good against Milan but he needs games to get his rhythm back

[thaddeus]

I think this is right but it's also a little weird. I have the same question with Jones a little as well. Or at least the concern. Sometimes we do need our 8s to bring more to break down a low block but some of Keita's attacking dynamism seems to have been coached out of him. And given we paid a huge premium on Keita because he was elite defensively AND offensively (rather than just defensively) it does make you wonder why we even signed him in the first place.

That said, it's a tiny concern because assuming we're back to our best there'll probably be 3/4 games this season where we need more from our 8s in an attacking sense.

I really like Keita but I expect we wouldn't sign a player now like the one he was at RB Leipzig.  When we agreed the deal to sign him (summer 2017) we were still largely playing 4-4-2 with Coutinho and Lallana as part of that midfield four.  Our full-backs were Clyne and Milner so all the creativity was coming from the midfield and forwards.

With that way of playing Keita as an alternative to Coutinho or Lallana made perfect sense.

Now our midfield are charged with controlling the game and providing a platform for others to shine.  It's the full-backs that pick up a lot more of the load when it comes to creating chances.

I think Keita's doing well but, similarly to Ox, he has to adapt his game to the demands made of him in that role.  Wijnaldum likewise but his game was more naturally suited to it than either Keita or Ox.

On Wednesday I thought he did the controlling part well and also made some runs beyond the forwards and was only denied a goal by little through balls not quite finding their target.

[Knight]

Great posts all, really helpful Ghost Town and Thaddeus, thanks for the engagement and the help.

You would think people would have faith in the coaching staff given their success. If players have been coached into certain things, theres a reason for it.

If this is directed at me, I hope it's clear from my comment that it's a 'tiny concern' as well as the italics on the 'seems' and highlighting that we might only need more in just 3/4 games that I really do have faith in the coaching setup. I'm not sure how I could have much more faith in our coaching than to think that in the 56/57 games of the 60 or so we'll (hopefully) play we'll be totally fine and it's only in 3/4 that we might want our 8s to do more than we normally see them do. So yes I have a 'concern' but it's ring fenced by really quite a lot of confidence in our squad and coaches. And it's a concern that they're probably all over and ready to deal with. Raising a worry doesn't indicate a lack of faith, just a human propensity to worry!

That said, I think we should be totally free to discuss perceived or feared tactical drawbacks or even failings in our approach without being accused of being a poor fan 'lacking faith'. It's interesting to discuss and where, as in this case, there's room to learn from other posters, is a great help to be able to raise questions.

[PaulF]

The answer is not that hard to see. Things change and the best coaches have flexibility, know a good thing when it happens and build upon it. Keita was bought before the current power midfield had properly established itself. He was almost certainly bought to provide that vertical movement and thrust and dribbling and all those things he was known for, in what would have been a different midfield deployment than the one we have since habitually used.

The best coaches plan and adapt. Our midfield changed with the loss of Coutinho, but what emerged was arguably even better.
No doubt Klopp knew it would have to change again when Gini left (and he must have had a pretty big heads up), so he's remodelling how we play.  He's probably 'happy' for Gini to move on and have to do this. It's a challenge for him as a coach, and it means that whatever teams found out about us before is no longer true.   I don't think clubs at this level every really get 'found out' as there's plenty of footage for coaches to analyse how we play. It's more a case that opponents will be happier with a draw and err towards setting up to frustrate us, rather than play their own game.  IF Keita , Ox and the rest of our squad could stay fully fit and play near their max we'd be unstoppable.

[ep1987]

Quite happy with him just doing a passable Gini impression personally, at least till he finds his confidence. The goals weren't his fault, and he was a big part of why AC spent the first 40 minutes struggling to get over the half way line. He'll get plenty of opportunities to play... but then so will a few others, so he'll need to earn it. If he doesn't earn it, ah well - it might just mean Curtis grasps the nettle and develops into a world class player.

Except he was at fault for the first goal. If it was a physical issue then we need to work with Naby to minimise this happening; either through improved fitness or better managing his energy expenditure. Given the circumstances (disrupted preparation and massive effort in first 40 mins) it's not something to beat him with, but ignoring his culpability in not tracking his man doesn't make much sense.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Great posts all, really helpful Ghost Town and Thaddeus, thanks for the engagement and the help.

If this is directed at me, I hope it's clear from my comment that it's a 'tiny concern' as well as the italics on the 'seems' and highlighting that we might only need more in just 3/4 games that I really do have faith in the coaching setup. I'm not sure how I could have much more faith in our coaching than to think that in the 56/57 games of the 60 or so we'll (hopefully) play we'll be totally fine and it's only in 3/4 that we might want our 8s to do more than we normally see them do. So yes I have a 'concern' but it's ring fenced by really quite a lot of confidence in our squad and coaches. And it's a concern that they're probably all over and ready to deal with. Raising a worry doesn't indicate a lack of faith, just a human propensity to worry!

That said, I think we should be totally free to discuss perceived or feared tactical drawbacks or even failings in our approach without being accused of being a poor fan 'lacking faith'. It's interesting to discuss and where, as in this case, there's room to learn from other posters, is a great help to be able to raise questions.

Fair enough mate, I personally don't worry about things I can't control, particularly when it comes to football aspects, and I've done less of it since Klopp and his coacing staff have been here, as they've shown what they can do.

I'll use Gini as an example. The player he was at Newcastle, was completely different to the player he was here and the player he is for Holland. Precisely because we wanted him to do specific things within our set up. People often think that we've played the exactly the same since klopp has been here, but there has been a clear evolution and tactical tweaks and adjustments throughout his time.

[PoetryInMotion]

You would think people would have faith in the coaching staff given their success. If players have been coached into certain things, theres a reason for it.

Yeah, I meant Klopp midfielder in a good way.

[PoetryInMotion]

Except he was at fault for the first goal. If it was a physical issue then we need to work with Naby to minimise this happening; either through improved fitness or better managing his energy expenditure. Given the circumstances (disrupted preparation and massive effort in first 40 mins) it's not something to beat him with, but ignoring his culpability in not tracking his man doesn't make much sense.

Who was his man? And where should he have tracked him?

[Knight]

Fair enough mate, I personally don't worry about things I can't control, particularly when it comes to football aspects, and I've done less of it since Klopp and his coacing staff have been here, as they've shown what they can do.

I'll use Gini as an example. The player he was at Newcastle, was completely different to the player he was here and the player he is for Holland. Precisely because we wanted him to do specific things within our set up. People often think that we've played the exactly the same since klopp has been here, but there has been a clear evolution and tactical tweaks and adjustments throughout his time.

Yeah not worrying about things you can’t control is a great place to be in! If you can do that in life not just with football you should tell the world your secret!

[Sangria]

I think this is right but it's also a little weird. I have the same question with Jones a little as well. Or at least the concern. Sometimes we do need our 8s to bring more to break down a low block but some of Keita's attacking dynamism seems to have been coached out of him. And given we paid a huge premium on Keita because he was elite defensively AND offensively (rather than just defensively) it does make you wonder why we even signed him in the first place.

That said, it's a tiny concern because assuming we're back to our best there'll probably be 3/4 games this season where we need more from our 8s in an attacking sense.

We agreed a deal for Keita in August 2017. At the time, our FBs were Moreno and Clyne. We were dependent on our midfield to move the ball forwards. Following an injury to Clyne in summer 2017, Trent was given a prolonged stint as first choice RB, and Robertson took over as first choice LB that season. With the injury to Ox, we moved towards using the FBs as our primary way of advancing play. By the time Keita arrived, both Robertson and Trent were established FBs.

[Fiasco]

He has given up his attacking game to be a Klopp midfielder.

I don't know about that. I think that train of thought is just another way to make excuses. I don't see us paying top dollar for a midfielder like Keita - and doing so a year in advance mind you - for him to come and then restrict what he was bought for by design. Injuries and lack of availability have influenced his participation and importance no doubt, but he's not a young kid like Curtis Jones who perhaps is being moulded at a young age be more rounded. Saying that Keita has given up his attacking game for Klopp does both a disservice, and if that was the case then we'd do without him and get someone who was on less money and would be available more often.

I don't think it is fair to judge Keita on what we thought we were buying. That almost mythical player doesn't exist and will never exist for us (whether it did in Germany is another matter, that was 4 years ago and things change). He's extremely slow at times and doesn't have any real dynamism to his game. He's tidy at times, he is like a little Jack Russell in his pressing and how he wins the ball back when he's on it but all of his good stuff seems to come in fits and starts. I don't mind him being around the first team but I'm long past being excited about him like I once was.

[Ghost Town]

I don't know about that. I think that train of thought is just another way to make excuses. I don't see us paying top dollar for a midfielder like Keita - and doing so a year in advance mind you - for him to come and then restrict what he was bought for by design.

It has been explained by several people why the situation is now different to that which existed when Keita was first bought and why, therefore, his role has to change.

He hasn't been restricted, he is playing a role that is there to be played

[PoetryInMotion]

Who was his man? And where should he have tracked him?

Not trying to force anyone into replying for this, but I do think I won't get a logical answer for this, thereby it's clear that the criticisms on him related to the Milan game are grossly unwarranted.

[drirfan]

The goals came from completely the other side of the pitch, however that doesn't really matter at all, because we paid so much money for him he should have the ability to cover the entire midfield single handedly