Topic: Small Leagues - What you do to improve them?

[LiamG]

TNS are the biggest club in the Welsh League. They get about 500 average attendance, maybe even less. Charge £8 for a ticket, or £90 for a season ticket. Do you genuinely believe they'd be able to sustain a flight to Ireland or Scotland every few weeks? Their gate receipts for one game would barely cover the costs of the flights alone. Bringing in £4000-£5000 from gate receipts isn't even skimming the surface of what they'd need.

They don't even get that!! They averaged 321 this season! Bangor were the best supported club in the league with an average of 635 with the highest of the season being 846, Rhyl are back in the league next season though and they are a very well supported club which can only be a good thing,Wouldn't be surprised if the Bangor Vs Rhyl games get 1,000 people in which would be excellent for a welsh premier league game

[LiamG]

Cardiff and Swansea have been a part of the English league system for nearly a century.

As has been mentioned, many Welsh sides in the Welsh league are amateur or semi-pro. I think only two are fully professional.

There are so, so many issues that would be very difficult to sort out. Its not a goer. If it was, it'd have been done already.

Only one now

[Dani LFC]

Like I have already said, I know that the traditionalists will dismiss the idea without even thinking about it.

The biggest problem of the Scottish, Irish, Welsh and Northern Irish leagues is the proximity of the English league system. Not only the Premier League clubs, but also the Championship, League One and League two clubs are harvesting the best talent from the neighbouring countries, at a very young age. The only way to stop that would be to increase the financial muscle of the Scottish, Irish, Welsh and Northern Irish clubs, and to create a competition that would be more attractive than the separate national leagues.

By combining these separate leagues, very soon a league at the Championship level will be established, and instead of going to the English lower leagues (like the Championship, League One and League Two), the homegrown players will be staying in their respective countries. Of course, the Premier League clubs will still be harvesting the very best talent from Scotland, Ireland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but that would be in much lower numbers than today.

At the same time, the English football will also benefit from the project. Not only that the top clubs will have their B-teams competing in this combined league, and developing their young players by playing them on senior level at regular basis, but also the English players would find it much easier to get a contract at Championship, League One or League Two level, since the Scottish, Irish, Welsh and Northern Irish players will no longer be present in those leagues in such big numbers.

[El Lobo]

Just chucking around opinions and hoping one sticks 

[helen the llama]

Clubs from the Scottish Premier League are not that poor

Maybe not in terms of cash turnover - but take into account debts

People generally don't watch Scottish football because the players generally aren't particularly good.  So on what planet does merging them suddenly make it an attractive proposition? A broadcaster is going to pay the sort of money needed to get it off the ground, on the basis of them broadcasting games with 1,200 or so attendances most weeks

If you want to raise interest in these leagues, without actually just improving coaching and the quality of player, then you need to do it gradually. A British Cup competition, something like that. Do it as part of pre-season or something. Rather than entering B teams in Scotland, let Celtic, Aberdeen, whoever else enter their U21s in our U21 league.

All SPL average attendances where over double 1,200. Hearts and Hibs both had averages over 10,000.  Even the lowest attendance was over 2100.

Hibs are trying to get into the East of Scotland League with a reserve team and Hearts are considering similar.

[-Willo-]

I want to see some billionaire take over a club like Rhyl to be honest, just be hilarious, imagine Falcao signing for Rhyl instead of Monaco.

[helen the llama]

I want to see some billionaire take over a club like Rhyl to be honest, just be hilarious, imagine Falcao signing for Rhyl instead of Monaco.

"Sugar Daddy" ownership never works out well though

[El Lobo]

Aye I don't doubt it, but condense that into the Irish and Welsh leagues....? You think many people will get a flight from Ireland or spend 16 hours on a coach from Wales to watch their side against Hibs?

I find this idea fascinating. We're going to re-invigorate Scottish, Welsh and Irish football. And we'll do it by using English reserve teams. I'm coming round to the idea Dani, I think you should go and pitch this in a pub in Glasgow and then Dublin.

[El Lobo]

I want to see some billionaire take over a club like Rhyl to be honest, just be hilarious, imagine Falcao signing for Rhyl instead of Monaco.

The Sun Centre or Monaco? Only one winner there.

[-Willo-]

The Sun Centre or Monaco? Only one winner there.

[helen the llama]

Aye I don't doubt it, but condense that into the Irish and Welsh leagues....? You think many people will get a flight from Ireland or spend 16 hours on a coach from Wales to watch their side against Hibs?

From personal experience No, not many go and see there team at away games. Even when they are an hour down the road. I go to a few away games but mostly the Derby and cup games.

[El Lobo]

If you made it a cup contest they might, people like a rare away day. I think you'd get a decent amount coming over from Ireland a few times a season for a cup game against a Scottish/Welsh side.

Football is expensive enough as it is, especially in this country. Asking fans to get to matches by aeroplane ten times a season would only reduce attendance further.

[helen the llama]

If you made it a cup contest they might, people like a rare away day. I think you'd get a decent amount coming over from Ireland a few times a season for a cup game against a Scottish/Welsh side.

Football is expensive enough as it is, especially in this country. Asking fans to get to matches by aeroplane ten times a season would only reduce attendance further.

I'd agree with a celtic nations club cup in place of the league cup. or in addition to the league cup. Even if the celtic nations part is qualified for by reaching a certain round in the domestic equivilant.

[campioni]

Like I have already said, I know that the traditionalists will dismiss the idea without even thinking about it.

The biggest problem of the Scottish, Irish, Welsh and Northern Irish leagues is the proximity of the English league system. Not only the Premier League clubs, but also the Championship, League One and League two clubs are harvesting the best talent from the neighbouring countries, at a very young age. The only way to stop that would be to increase the financial muscle of the Scottish, Irish, Welsh and Northern Irish clubs, and to create a competition that would be more attractive than the separate national leagues.

By combining these separate leagues, very soon a league at the Championship level will be established, and instead of going to the English lower leagues (like the Championship, League One and League Two), the homegrown players will be staying in their respective countries. Of course, the Premier League clubs will still be harvesting the very best talent from Scotland, Ireland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but that would be in much lower numbers than today.

At the same time, the English football will also benefit from the project. Not only that the top clubs will have their B-teams competing in this combined league, and developing their young players by playing them on senior level at regular basis, but also the English players would find it much easier to get a contract at Championship, League One or League Two level, since the Scottish, Irish, Welsh and Northern Irish players will no longer be present in those leagues in such big numbers.

This league that is gonna soon be at championship level, which teams are gonna be in it?

Just out of interest, have you ever been to an Irish league or welsh league game?

[El Lobo]

Man Utd B, Man City B, Chelsea B, Arsenal B, Spurs B, Everton B, Liverpool B, Newcastle B, West Ham B, Villa B, Swansea B, West Brom B, Man Utd C, Man City C, Arsenal C, Liverpool C, Celtic and maybe Rangers.

[Dani LFC]

This league that is gonna soon be at championship level, which teams are gonna be in it?

England: LFC (B), Man Utd (B), Arsenal (B), Chelsea (B), Man City (B), Tottenham (B)
Scotland:Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Aberdeen, Hibernian, Dundee United
Ireland: Shamrock Rovers, Shelbourne
Wales: Newport, Wrexham
N.Ireland: Linfield, Glentoran

Something like that. National leagues of Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the English U-21 Premier League will still go on. The champions of these leagues will get promoted to the combined league, and the lowest placed Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Northern Irish and English(B) team in the combined league will get relegated to their respective national league.

[LiamG]

I want to see some billionaire take over a club like Rhyl to be honest, just be hilarious, imagine Falcao signing for Rhyl instead of Monaco.

Even if a billionaire took a welsh club over, It would never attract a player of Falcao's calibre, maybe a retired pro like michael owen?

For what it's worth, i'd be against a celtic league, Remember the celtic international cup? Yeah the one nobody cared about? a league would be the same!

PoP has the right idea, more coaches = better players all round, if every club in the welsh set up takes the same approach the standards will increase massively, Better league = more chance of more sponsorship + going further in europe than the first qualifying round lol

[Dani LFC]

PoP has the right idea, more coaches = better players all round, if every club in the welsh set up takes the same approach the standards will increase massively, Better league = more chance of more sponsorship + going further in europe than the first qualifying round lol

No matter how many quality young players the Welsh league will produce, they will be all gone to the clubs in the English league system, even before the age of 18.

[LiamG]

1) Better and more coaching at the youth level - make it a long term plan to develop great technical players. They can't all go to England and abroad, so those who don't will stay and improve the level of the game. Those that do will bring in money to the clubs that developed them.

[campioni]

England: LFC (B), Man Utd (B), Arsenal (B), Chelsea (B), Man City (B), Tottenham (B)
Scotland:Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Aberdeen, Hibernian, Dundee United
Ireland: Shamrock Rovers, Shelbourne
Wales: Newport, Wrexham
N.Ireland: Linfield, Glentoran

Something like that. National leagues of Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the English U-21 Premier League will still go on. The champions of these leagues will get promoted to the combined league, and the lowest placed Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Northern Irish and English(B) team in the combined league will get relegated to their respective national league.

So technically a team could finish second in the combined league and be relegated?

You do realise that by removing the strongest teams from the Scottish, welsh and Irish leagues you will be significantly weakening the national leagues? The teams who win the national leagues will not be able to compete and will struggle financially.

I still don't see how a league with those teams in it would be as strong as the championship.

By the way, Glentoran are close to going out of business due to financial difficulties. And they are the second biggest club in the Irish league.

[LiamG]

Welsh premier league have lost Neath and Llanelli in the past 2 seasons, and of course Barry Town went under some time ago too! Even Rhyl nearly went under

[Dani LFC]

Unfortunately, all the quality young players will go to the clubs in the English league system, Cardiff and Swansea included. And they will go there at a very young age, so the clubs in the Welsh league will get peanuts for them. The gap between the Welsh league and the English league system is simply too big. Even the clubs in the English 4th tier (League Two) have a bigger financial power than TNS. You need a buffer zone.

[Dani LFC]

So technically a team could finish second in the combined league and be relegated?

Theoretically, that is possible, if two Irish, Welsh or Northern Irish clubs finish at the top of the league.

You do realise that by removing the strongest teams from the Scottish, welsh and Irish leagues you will be significantly weakening the national leagues? The teams who win the national leagues will not be able to compete and will struggle financially.

The Scottish, Irish, Welsh and Northern Irish leagues have already been suffering from an unbalanced quality of the clubs for years. Removing the top clubs and playing them in the combined league would actually level the playing field for the other clubs. Of course, these other clubs will have the chance of being promoted to the combined league, if they win their respective national championship.

[LiamG]

Unfortunately, all the quality young players will go to the clubs in the English league system, Cardiff and Swansea included. And they will go there at a very young age, so the clubs in the Welsh league will get peanuts for them. The gap between the Welsh league and the English league system is simply too big. Even the clubs in the English 4th tier (League Two) have a bigger financial power than TNS. You need a buffer zone.

ALL of them? Even those that do, it's still going to bring money to those clubs that develop them! Do clubs in league two have the chance of realistic european football? i'm talking champions league?

[Dani LFC]

ALL of them? Even those that do, it's still going to bring money to those clubs that develop them! Do clubs in league two have the chance of realistic european football? i'm talking champions league?

The quality ones will go, and you don't get much money for the 16-17 year old players. Participation of clubs like Newport, Wrexham and TNS in the combined league (not all of them at the same time) would keep those youngsters away from Cardiff/Swansea and the English clubs, for a longer period of time. The promotion/relegation principle of the combined league would allow for at least 3 Welsh clubs (Cardiff and Swansea aside) to be professional clubs at a respectable level.

[LiamG]

the "not much money" might not seem much but to the small welsh clubs it will! Why would them being in a combined league keep them away? are you saying Wrexham,TNS and Newport are the only welsh clubs who could produce good young players? Wrexham already do that's about it!

[Dani LFC]

Mate, it is just an idea that might help everyone involved: The Scottish clubs would get a bigger market and more exposure. The Irish, Welsh and Northern Irish clubs would get the chance to compete at a higher level, and to earn more money. That would enable them to keep the quality young players for a longer period of time. The top English clubs would get the chance to develop their young players by playing them against senior opposition on weekly basis.

Now, if we are being completely honest, I am mostly interested in this idea because it will allow for LFC to play the B-team against senior opposition on weekly basis. The Spanish/German B-teams model seem to be working so well, that the Dutch league have also adopted it, and they have allowed for the B-teams of Ajax, PSV and Twente to compete in the the Dutch 2nd division, with Feyenoord's affiliate club Excelsior already playing there.

[campioni]

Mate, it is just an idea that might help everyone involved: The Scottish clubs would get a bigger market and more exposure. The Irish, Welsh and Northern Irish clubs would get the chance to compete at a higher level, and to earn more money. That would enable them to keep the quality young players for a longer period of time. The top English clubs would get the chance to develop their young players by playing them against senior opposition on weekly basis.

Now, if we are being completely honest, I am mostly interested in this idea because it will allow for LFC to play the B-team against senior opposition on weekly basis. The Spanish/German B-teams model seem to be working so well, that the Dutch league have also adopted it, and they have allowed for the B-teams of Ajax, PSV and Twente to compete in the the Dutch 2nd division, with Feyenoord's affiliate club Excelsior already playing there.

I really don't think you have any idea of the standard of the irish and welsh leagues. The likes of Linfield, Newport, Shamrock Rovers etc would have no chance of competing against SPL sides and B teams of the top premier league clubs. They would get hammered every week. You only have to look at their european results every year, they usually end up getting beat in the first round of european qualifiers by teams from the likes of Iceland, Faroe Islands etc.

The Spanish system is completely different to what you're talking about. Their B teams play in the second division which is the equivalent of the championship in England. A league with Irish, Welsh and Scottish teams would be nowhere near that standard.

[Dani LFC]

I really don't think you have any idea of the standard of the irish and welsh leagues. The likes of Linfield, Newport, Shamrock Rovers etc would have no chance of competing against SPL sides and B teams of the top premier league clubs. They would get hammered every week. You only have to look at their european results every year, they usually end up getting beat in the first round of european qualifiers by teams from the likes of Iceland, Faroe Islands etc.

The Spanish system is completely different to what you're talking about. Their B teams play in the second division which is the equivalent of the championship in England. A league with Irish, Welsh and Scottish teams would be nowhere near that standard.

Mate, I am perfectly aware of the standard of the Irish, Welsh and Northern Irish leagues. That is exactly why I am suggesting the idea of the combined league: More money for these clubs, means more talented players staying in Ireland, Wales and Northern Ireland, means better quality and more competitive teams. It is all about perspective.

[El Lobo]

England: LFC (B), Man Utd (B), Arsenal (B), Chelsea (B), Man City (B), Tottenham (B)
Scotland:Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Aberdeen, Hibernian, Dundee United
Ireland: Shamrock Rovers, Shelbourne
Wales: Newport, Wrexham
N.Ireland: Linfield, Glentoran

Something like that. National leagues of Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the English U-21 Premier League will still go on. The champions of these leagues will get promoted to the combined league, and the lowest placed Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Northern Irish and English(B) team in the combined league will get relegated to their respective national league.

Why do Scottish teams and the English B teams get treble the amount of places as Ireland, Northern Ireland and Wales? Who decides which B teams compete?

To be honest mate, you're highjacking an interesting thread with utter nonsense purely because you've decided to run with this idea of English B teams competing somewhere in senior competition. Its been done to death, we all know the pros and cons.

Your proposal is to merge the 24th, 36, 47th and 48th best leagues in Europe. The Welsh League has an average attendance of 276. The League of Ireland has 1,700. The Scottish Premier has 10,000, but about 5,000 without Celtic. And the IFA gets about 900. There is no attraction for a broadcaster, whatsoever. The interest is tiny. This idea that grouping four poor leagues together would quadruple the interest is one of the silliest conclusions I think I've seen. The interest would be diluted, as you'd take away the local fans of these small sides as they wouldn't be able to afford to follow them, and inevitably the ticket prices would increase.

Forget about the B teams, because its a nonsense. The ONLY place that English B teams will ever compete at a senior level, will be in England. The idea of these teams, particularly Scottish teams, allowing English reserves sides to compete in their main competition when we've always been so against them joining the Premier League is utterly ridiculous. Just think about what you're typing, please.

'Hello is that Celtic? 50,000 average attendance Celtic? European Cup winners Celtic? I know we said you cant come and play in our Premier League. But can you make a new league so our reserves can come and play you? Hello? Hello Celtic? Are you still there..... They've hung up.'

You again haven't once considered the cost to these clubs, not to mention the fans.

Newport Vs Dundee. Over 500 miles each way. A 20 hour journey.

Shamrock Vs Dundee is even more fun. Flight into Edinburgh and then a 70 mile round trip, plus a hotel. Nice and cheap....

Shamrock Rovers, who get the same sort of attendance as most League Two clubs and a few Blue Square clubs, are going to have to get a flight to fourteen of their seventeen away games. The Irish clubs will have one local match a season. One. And this is your grand master plan of increasing interest. By having one local match a season.

[El Lobo]

Mate, I am perfectly aware of the standard of the Irish, Welsh and Northern Irish leagues. That is exactly why I am suggesting the idea of the combined league: More money for these clubs, means more talented players staying in Ireland, Wales and Northern Ireland, means better quality and more competitive teams. It is all about perspective.

HOW?!?!

How are they going to improve, by playing similarly bad sides?! For the love of god man, just think. How are the players going to improve? By testing themselves against other bad players? No extra coaching, no new local system, nothing. Just by pitching them against other poor footballers.

Where is this extra money coming from? Will Magners decide to chuck each side £3 million a year to broadcast games garnering attendances of less than 1000? People will tune in to watch this, right?

If you were involved in funding for a British tennis player, who was about 800 in the world, you wouldn't send him to a local tennis club in Wales to improve his play by playing equally bad players, would you? You'd try and get him a better coach.

[Dani LFC]

Mate, if you are not interested in the idea, why are you making so many posts about it?

[El Lobo]

I'm fascinated by the idea of improving smaller leagues. Of how it could be done.

Not just in the UK, but Europe wide. I'm fascinated at how Holland can produce so many amazing players over such a long period, but have a much smaller population than countries like Ukraine, Poland and England. I'm intrigued that Croatia do the same in comparison to Scotland, Wales and Ireland. None of these countries have a silly merged league system.

You've got a cracking poster in PoP coming up with proper ideas, of how it can be done. It doesn't need people chucking English B teams up in the air and trying desperately to come up with some ridiculous way of getting them senior football. We know it happens in Spain, we know it happens in Germany, we know it happens in Holland and we can see the benefits.

If you really need to discuss it further, if this and the Youth thread isnt enough, then why don't you open a new thread about it? Or search for one as I'm sure its been discussed before.

You can get so much information about what the different leagues do, coaching, international football etc.

[Dani LFC]

I'm fascinated by the idea of improving smaller leagues. Of how it could be done.

Not just in the UK, but Europe wide. I'm fascinated at how Holland can produce so many amazing players over such a long period, but have a much smaller population than countries like Ukraine, Poland and England. I'm intrigued that Croatia do the same in comparison to Scotland, Wales and Ireland. None of these countries have a silly merged league system.

It seems that you are unaware of the negotiations to create the regional football league from the countries of former Yugoslavia, then?

[El Lobo]

It seems that you are unaware of the negotiations to create the regional football league from the countries of former Yugoslavia, then?

Come on lad.

How is that relevant to what you highlighted? They already produce much better players and qualify for major tournaments than Scotland, Wales or Ireland, whilst their teams do better in Europe. That's got nothing to do with having a merged league, and everything to do with how they coach their players.

UEFA have said they don't support any idea of countries merging their league systems. The specific one you mentioned has (admittedly from a quick google) been in negotiation for almost a decade and they seem no closer to any breakthrough on it.

Its not some new idea. Its been discussed before, its been done before and it didn't work. It may well happen again. But not in the way you want it to happen. Merging country leagues is an issue which would take years to come to fruition. B teams taking part in senior leagues is something which would take years to come to fruition. B teams taking part in a merged league, which their parent clubs don't take a part in, is NEVER EVER going to happen. Ever.

[Hank Scorpio]

For me, too much of the value is lost to transfer fees, agent fees and all the other type of supporting activities which are not really part of the core product. 

Radical idea but how about a taxation system?  I know the clubs would never agree but if they were taxed, let's say on transfers, and then that money was pooled and trickled down to lower levels.  Clubs could be incentivised to drive change.  Should a club like Crewe not be rewarded for producing players on a regular basis?  I'm not just talking about the transfer fee they receive but a progressive system which rewards them for investing in their academy in the long term (money for England appearances, for example).  Clubs may then begin to invest in the training of coaches and pay a greater level of attention to the details at grassroots level.

Just thought I would stick this in here.  I find this debate very interesting.

[Dani LFC]

UEFA have said they don't support any idea of countries merging their league systems. The specific one you mentioned has (admittedly from a quick google) been in negotiation for almost a decade and they seem no closer to any breakthrough on it.

Its not some new idea. Its been discussed before, its been done before and it didn't work. It may well happen again. But not in the way you want it to happen. Merging country leagues is an issue which would take years to come to fruition. B teams taking part in senior leagues is something which would take years to come to fruition. B teams taking part in a merged league, which their parent clubs don't take a part in, is NEVER EVER going to happen. Ever.

Well, UEFA have always been idiots, and it is not exactly a secret that they are holding back the development of European football overall, looking only after their own interests. The regional sports leagues in Europe have been very successful when it comes to other sports, with basketball, rugby, hockey and handball being the most obvious examples.

[El Lobo]

B-b-but its not handball, or rugby, or hockey, or basketball..... Its football.

Like I say mate, you're just bouncing from one opinion to another, going off on completely different tangents and ignoring anything being put in front of you.

What on earth have regional rugby sides got to do with football? Do you realise how people in Wales, Scotland and Ireland see rugby compared to football? You don't understand the cultures, the coaching, the people, anything of these countries. You don't factor in cost to clubs and fans. You don't consider quality of player being produced. You don't put up any arguments for any of these things, just simply bounce to another long shot. You don't consider how the Scottish, Irish and Welsh clubs would feel about being seen as equal to English B teams.

Rather than mentioning merged leagues in other sports, why don't you go away, do a bit of research and try and figure out why for example Wales has constantly produced more high class rugby players than footballers?

[Dani LFC]

B-b-but its not handball, or rugby, or hockey, or basketball..... Its football.

Like I say mate, you're just bouncing from one opinion to another, going off on completely different tangents and ignoring anything being put in front of you.

What on earth have regional rugby sides got to do with football? Do you realise how people in Wales, Scotland and Ireland see rugby compared to football? You don't understand the cultures, the coaching, the people, anything of these countries. You don't factor in cost to clubs and fans. You don't consider quality of player being produced. You don't put up any arguments for any of these things, just simply bounce to another long shot. You don't consider how the Scottish, Irish and Welsh clubs would feel about being seen as equal to English B teams.

Rather than mentioning merged leagues in other sports, why don't you go away, do a bit of research and try and figure out why for example Wales has constantly produced more high class rugby players than footballers?

Mate, before I've been prematurely retired due to health issues, I have been working professionally with the Adriatic Basketball Association. It would be fair to say that I probably know more about combining different nations, cultures, religions and traditions into one sports competition, than you will ever know. I have tried to suggest my experience on the issue, and see if there will be any interest about the model in the specific case of the smaller leagues of Scotland, Ireland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It is your prerogative not to like it.

[El Lobo]

Mate, before I've been prematurely retired due to health issues, I have been working professionally with the Adriatic Basketball Association. It would be fair to say that I probably know more about combining different nations, cultures, religions and traditions into one sports competition, than you will ever know. I have tried to suggest my experience on the issue, and see if there will be any interest about the model in the specific case of the smaller leagues of Scotland, Ireland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It is your prerogative not to like it.