Author Topic: Space exploration thread - Unexpected Rapid Disassembly in the launch area.  (Read 310698 times)

Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2200 on: July 23, 2019, 03:13:33 pm »
To an uninformed person the destruction of the satellite was a demonstration of technology. But the US didn't gain anything from showing off a capability they had since the late 60s, early 70s. The only military benefit from the test was the demonstration of a more conventional rocket used in a anti-IBM-like scenario. That opened a new class of anti-IBM arsenal. So, while the satellite had to be destroyed, with which even the Russians agreed, it was done in an experimental way that did have military hues. It was in no way demonstrating to the Chinese that "hey, we have that capability too, let's talk about space". Which is exactly what the Chinese and Indian tests were. Moreover, the USA-193 orbit was below 250km, whereas China and India put debris right where all LEO satellites are, including the ISS orbit at 400km.

What USA did when they demonstrated that satellite destroying technology was show the world that a satellite could be destroyed from the face of earth. They might have used it to destroy a satellite that had to be removed. But it came with a not-so-subtle subtext. And thats important in this era of fraught geopolitics. Today it is a defunct satellite. Tomorrow it could be Russia's. Or China's. Or EU's.

So yes. USA didnt want anyone else to have that technology. Thats why they cried foul when Russians, China and India did it. And now there are 3 nations wanting a seat at the table to discuss how to best proceed with dealing with space waste and space debris with USA not wanting the table at all. Make what you will of it. And we know how moral high ground and USA always go hand in hand.

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Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2201 on: July 23, 2019, 03:21:31 pm »
Also as a followup,

Quote
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/russia-puts-onus-us-for-early-outer-space-rules-after-indias-test/articleshow/68626644.cms

Russia puts onus on US for early outer space rules after India's test

Quote
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/us-takes-note-of-indias-first-anti-missile-test/article26660703.ece

US adopts neutral stand on 'Mission Shakti', to continue space collaboration with India

Quote
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-satellite-usa/u-s-sees-india-space-debris-from-weapons-test-eventually-burning-up-idUSKCN1R91T0

U.S. sees India space debris from weapons test eventually burning up

Quote
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/us-studying-asat-advises-other-nations-against-similar-tests/articleshow/68625205.cms

US studying ASAT, advises other nations against similar tests

And an actual quote - My message would be: We all live in space, let’s not make it a mess,” acting US Defence Secretary Patrick Shanahan told media persons during a visit to the US military’s Southern Command on Wednesday. “Space should be a place where we can conduct business. Space is a place where people should have the freedom to operate.”
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 03:26:43 pm by ChaChaMooMoo »

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2202 on: July 23, 2019, 08:55:55 pm »
What USA did when they demonstrated that satellite destroying technology was show the world that a satellite could be destroyed from the face of earth. They might have used it to destroy a satellite that had to be removed. But it came with a not-so-subtle subtext. And thats important in this era of fraught geopolitics. Today it is a defunct satellite. Tomorrow it could be Russia's. Or China's. Or EU's.

So yes. USA didnt want anyone else to have that technology. Thats why they cried foul when Russians, China and India did it. And now there are 3 nations wanting a seat at the table to discuss how to best proceed with dealing with space waste and space debris with USA not wanting the table at all. Make what you will of it. And we know how moral high ground and USA always go hand in hand.

The best way to bring a sword fighter to the table by drawing out a bigger sword.
My objection to the bit in bold is that the US didn't need to "demonstrate" anything that was done many decades ago. Is every rocket launch a demonstration of capability? Yes and no, right? Yes, because you are showing to the world that you can do that, but no because you've shown convincingly before that you can do it. The event was spun by the medias on both sides as a demonstration or as a necessity to protect life. Choose whichever one to believe, neither covers the whole story.

But of course, the US want to have the biggest stick and so do Russia. And China and India want to join the club. It's the same with the nuclear weapons, it's an exclusive club that wields power. But during the cold war, the powers were balanced. Both Russia and the US had satellite destruction capabilities in the 70s. Much of it was revealed to the public in the early 80s. There was an excellent article in Scientific American, IIRC, from 1984, which compared the Russian and American capabilities (in the context of overall discussion on military satellite launch tactics). The American ones were targeting direct hit with precision targeting, the Russians one was based on proximate explosion (boom near the orbit). Both countries experimented with nuclear explosions in space. Which, from what we know now is completely idiotic (but this was at times when we were dealing with military doctrines that required soldiers to enter the zone of a nuclear explosion 24 hours after the blast). Overall, the US had more sophisticated and more accurate technology, the Russians had more robust and fool-proof technology. This was almost half a century ago! And there was no other player. Now we have France, the UK, China, India, Israel, and Iran who want to join the club. But the problem is that there is no balance anymore. France and the UK are not going to blow up a satellite, they don't need to (neither did the US in 2008). But China, India and Iran, or even North Korea if allowed, need to demonstrate this capability to be taken on par with the US and Russia.

As much as I hate Trump, he's got a point that these treaties need to be renegotiated. How, it's another topic. But the US and Russia can no longer keep the balance and the new players have no interest in keeping that balance. Scary times...
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Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2203 on: July 24, 2019, 08:34:38 am »


Funnily enough, I typed out an entire paragraph citing Nuclear energy as an example only to remove it after thinking it has no connection to my point. But what I see is both of us are on the same page and paragraph. Just probably different lines. :)

My point was, USA tested its first ASAT in 1959. It was launched at a test satellite that was flown at an altitude of 250kms. The missile came close by some 12 kms. It could've been nuclear armed and it could've been functional. But it didnt and the test was deemed only semi-successful. The Sputnik-1 was launched in 1957 by the USSR. Coincidence?

USA have been conducting ASAT tests regularly since. And with each test loop, they have been steadily improving. And after 1973, the projects that focussed on ASATs, took low priority. In 1982 a "leak" confirmed USSRs successful testing of a new high altitude missile interception system. Sort of like a counter ASAT. This kick started the ASAT program in the USA and 1984 and 1985 they tested various ASAT technologies and weapons. This program went into sleep in 1987 and in 89 was completely shit down when it was known that the Soviet Union would collapse because their last ever test took place in 1987. I think we are in agreement here.

China destroyed their weather satellite (orbiting at 900 something kms) in 2007 from a missile that they launched from earth. This was heavily criticised by the USA.
In 2008, they destroyed two satellites that they launched from a ship.

Quote
Concern over China's missile test
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6276543.stm
...
...
American Aviation Week and Space Technology said the move could have left "considerable space debris in an orbit used by many different satellites".

While the US may be unhappy about China's actions, the Washington administration has recently opposed international calls to end such tests.
...
...

For a country whose ASAT program went to sleep in 1987 (last ever missile launch happened in 1985) suddenly the issue of space debris and space arms became an issue. This is what I'm talking about. And hopefully you too. As you pointed out, this is not about showcasing this technology. This was about having a technology that nobody else has. This is like Apple suddenly crying fowl on Huawei's phone business saying they are contributing massively to e-waste. And now suddenly, Samsung wants in, Nokia wants in and LG wants in. Because this is exactly whats happening. And this is what I am talking about.

Moral policing is one thing. Forceful bullying is another thing. With the USA, in the last couple hundred years, it has never been about moral policing. Neither are any other country to be fair. Since we are focussing on USA here, I am forced to single out USA here.

But this is what Trump meant when he said space force. People were laughing at him. For once (and I need to wash my mouth with bonjella and xanax mixture) I agree with him. An oversight is necessary for essential checks and balances. Space is one domain where the consequences could be catastrophic. China has been successful in keeping India out of security council. So what better way to demand a seat at the table?!? But as you say, this is another topic.

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2204 on: July 24, 2019, 06:20:52 pm »
I think we are in a nearly full agreement. The issues are so complex that anyone can put any spin on the action. Of coarse the US is bullying other countries, but I expect any other country in the US shoes to do the same. We have 1000s of years worth of proof throughout the human history. All I'm saying is that it's to be expected. I think the US "moral policing" can be described in one president's words (Truman?): "speak softly and carry a big stick". :)
So much for morality...
 
But I think that people in general do not understand the concept of "Space Force" largely because it's spun by the media, and a lot of us grew with Star Wars. It's nothing of the kind, it's a line management reorganization, nothing more, but one with a flashy name. It is an exact analog to the establishment of the Air Force in 1947. Did we not have airplanes before? Have they not been used in wars, especially the just ended WWII? Planes were first used in the Balkan Wars by the Bulgarians in 1912 to drop bombs over Turkey by hand. But they had no "Air Force". Someone decided that its a good idea, other agreed, and they did it. But at some stage of the organization of an army, especially a big army, it becomes apparent that activity management, gathering information, information analysis, conveying orders, etc., can be better organized by the formation of a new department. It's too much for the Air Force, and it's getting way out of their charter. Ergo, Space Force. It makes absolute perfect sense to me.

There is so much going on in space... The Russians and Americans have spy satellites that listen in on each others communications, trying signal jamming technologies all the time, China jams our SMAP satellite every time it flies over regardless that it doesn't have absolutely anything that can even remotely be linked to spying. Unless they don't want the world to know where their water reservoirs are. A powerful radar beam can blind a radar satellite through the tiniest of cracks in the shielding. Instead of worrying about natural sources of background, the radar that measures global moisture had to be designed per warfare standards. That's such a waste of money... But if it hadn't been done, the mission was over on the first pass over China.

So yeah, I'm all for a new space treaty, one that will include ALL countries whether they have capabilities or not. Not an exclusive club that only works in a balance scenario of two super powers. But that ain't gonna happen in my lifetime...

EDIT: It seems that other nations are thinking along the same lines:
France details military 'command of space' plans to protect satellites
https://www.dw.com/en/france-details-military-command-of-space-plans-to-protect-satellites/a-49747318
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 06:23:06 am by farawayred »
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Offline gazzalfc

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2205 on: July 26, 2019, 09:06:11 am »
Space X launched another successful mission last night. Delivering new supplies and equipment to the International Space Station. Another beautiful Falcon 9 1st stage rocket recovery landing as well (watching those rockets land never gets old). Their 44th successful landing of the rocket.


Offline Roady

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2206 on: August 19, 2019, 01:08:27 pm »
Going to stick this in here as can’t find a thread for it. Looking for advice now than anything. Got a decent extra wage this month and as a bonus I’d really like to buy myself a telescope. I live in Spain so ideally off amazon. I’d quite like one easy to use but I don’t want a completely basic one. I’d love to able to connect my phone and take photos etc if that’s possible? I’m completely new to it all. I’ve never really had the time to do this before but I love gazing up at he stars etc over here form the beach or m balcony. I’d love any advice anyone could give me. I don’t want to spend a fortune. Possibly a couple of hundred quid if that’s feasible. Or if I’m gunna get bollocks from that then say so. My mrs kids would love it too. If it’s the wrong thread mods apologies
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2207 on: August 19, 2019, 02:09:21 pm »
Can't help you Roady but you should find what you're looking for on one of these.Just click the telescope on the Sky At Night link to get the review.

https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/reviews/telescopes/

And this one from Space.com

https://www.space.com/15693-telescopes-beginners-telescope-reviews-buying-guide.html
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2208 on: August 20, 2019, 06:37:28 pm »
Aperture is more important than magnification.  The more light your telescope can gather the better.

If memory serves, a reflector is probably best for planets. Check out the 5 inch range :)
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2209 on: August 20, 2019, 09:03:06 pm »
Aperture is more important than magnification.  The more light your telescope can gather the better.

If memory serves, a reflector is probably best for planets. Check out the 5 inch range :)

That what you said to the mrs? ;D

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2210 on: August 20, 2019, 09:38:46 pm »
That what you said to the mrs? ;D

Don't be ridiculous!  That's the 8 inch range!  (You should check out the focal length on THAT! ;D )
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2211 on: August 23, 2019, 06:18:48 am »
Surprised it's not yet mention here:
Russia sends robot Fedor into space for mission with ISS
https://www.dw.com/en/russia-sends-robot-fedor-into-space-for-mission-with-iss/a-50125511
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2212 on: August 23, 2019, 07:41:04 am »
Russian bots?

What could possibly got wrong? ;D
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2213 on: August 23, 2019, 03:04:23 pm »
Russian bots?

What could possibly got wrong? ;D
The ISS runs out of synthetic vodka?  ;D

In fairness though, Chernobyl was cleaned by the 15-year old lunar rover  engineering module, converted to a grader...
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 03:06:47 pm by farawayred »
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2214 on: August 23, 2019, 03:05:24 pm »
Hopefully it’s not too distracted posting on Twitter to do it’s job up there.

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2215 on: August 29, 2019, 08:59:45 pm »
JWT is ready to go apparently. Farawayred can hopefully update us.

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2216 on: August 30, 2019, 03:54:14 am »
JWT is ready to go apparently. Farawayred can hopefully update us.
I don't know know much more than it has been in the news - it has been assembled (https://spaceflightnow.com/2019/08/29/james-webb-space-telescope-fully-assembled-in-california/). The planned launch date is in 2021, so there's still plenty of time and a lot of work to go. A group of JPL flight techs are going there for several months this winter (they don't like that very much as there is always someone who gets divorced afterwards, true story!) There are still some kinks that are worked out with the MIRI detector system (our contribution to the mission), but those should be easy to fix. So far so good, except way past the original budget and deadline...  :)
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2217 on: August 31, 2019, 03:04:16 pm »
I don't know know much more than it has been in the news - it has been assembled (https://spaceflightnow.com/2019/08/29/james-webb-space-telescope-fully-assembled-in-california/). The planned launch date is in 2021, so there's still plenty of time and a lot of work to go. A group of JPL flight techs are going there for several months this winter (they don't like that very much as there is always someone who gets divorced afterwards, true story!) There are still some kinks that are worked out with the MIRI detector system (our contribution to the mission), but those should be easy to fix. So far so good, except way past the original budget and deadline...  :)
With all the delays, has the tech aged badly or has it been updated as time goes on?
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2218 on: August 31, 2019, 04:19:25 pm »
With all the delays, has the tech aged badly or has it been updated as time goes on?
That's a very good question because "end of life" is a thing and JWST will operate at the Lagrangian point, where astronauts can't go to repair it (yet). This is a Goddard mission  and I have little visibility to it, but I don't know of any major design or instrument revisions. But at the same time, with every failure investigation design and implementation are being improved. It's a bit like a bicycle tire with many patched holes - it works fine and the patches don't seem to put a limit on its life.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2219 on: September 2, 2019, 10:39:03 pm »
Well HST was designed in the 70s/80s and has done well enough.  Yes it's been upgraded with modern computer tech but the JWT is hardly Voyager 2. 
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2220 on: September 7, 2019, 06:17:15 am »
A sad day for Chandrayaan-2, for India, and for the entire space community... I hope they can figure it out and go again

https://www.dw.com/en/india-loses-contact-with-lunar-spacecraft/a-50334583
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2221 on: September 25, 2019, 08:18:42 pm »
Nice little video courtesy of Scott Manley.  Earth rotating for an hour (about six days' worth)

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/uCcQ0satz08" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/uCcQ0satz08</a>
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2222 on: September 29, 2019, 02:16:42 pm »
Starship ....

Elon Musk is fucking nuts... but once again, this is incredible
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2223 on: September 29, 2019, 11:11:24 pm »
Starship ....

I wonder if Fireball XL5 was shown in South Africa when he was a kid....



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Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2224 on: September 29, 2019, 11:13:49 pm »
It needs heat resistent tiles to be added for re-entry...

No tail rudder is going to make it a bitch to guide through thee atmosphere though surely?

I wonder how high it is when it turns and fires it’s rockets...
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2225 on: September 29, 2019, 11:38:48 pm »
It needs heat resistent tiles to be added for re-entry...

No tail rudder is going to make it a bitch to guide through thee atmosphere though surely?

I wonder how high it is when it turns and fires it’s rockets...

The BBC says he plans to use Glass...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49870154

The Starship will feature heat-resistant "glass" tiles in those areas likely to experience the highest temperatures during a descent back through the atmosphere.

I think he's a very peculiar man, almost like something from a HG Wells or Conrad novel, but he does seem to be pushing things along, or at least his money is.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2226 on: September 29, 2019, 11:44:24 pm »
Pity he brands innocent people as peados when they have the nerve to disagree with his opinions.
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2227 on: September 30, 2019, 12:01:44 am »
Pity he brands innocent people as peados when they have the nerve to disagree with his opinions.

Yes, but I expect quite a few important historical figures across many disciplines would also share his ill disciplined and abhorrently arrogant views or similar when their authority or pronouncements were challenged, it's just they didn't have twitter to publicize them and by such to inform us what complete and utter arseholes they probably were in person.
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2228 on: September 30, 2019, 12:09:16 am »
Starship ....

Elon Musk is fucking nuts... but once again, this is incredible

Sounds like one of his goals is to take on the airlines or maybe I read that wrong.
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Online farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2229 on: September 30, 2019, 12:14:39 am »
The BBC says he plans to use Glass...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49870154

The Starship will feature heat-resistant "glass" tiles in those areas likely to experience the highest temperatures during a descent back through the atmosphere.

Makes sense. The Shuttle tiles were essentially made of porous borosilicate glass and heat treated tetrasilicide, so it's a proven technology. But recently aerogel materials are advancing in leaps and bounds, so those may be even better.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2230 on: September 30, 2019, 12:15:37 am »
Yes, but I expect quite a few important historical figures across many disciplines would also share his ill disciplined and abhorrently arrogant views or similar when their authority or pronouncements were challenged, it's just they didn't have twitter to publicize them and by such to inform us what complete and utter arseholes they probably were in person.

Stephen Hawking for one.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2231 on: September 30, 2019, 01:08:35 am »
Indeed, Hawking seems to have been a bit of a dick.  For myself though I've had no time for Musk since that outburst. It's an abhorrent remark to make.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2232 on: September 30, 2019, 03:36:41 am »
Indeed, Hawking seems to have been a bit of a dick.  For myself though I've had no time for Musk since that outburst. It's an abhorrent remark to make.
Sure, I agree 100%. Musk is a dick and his arrogance knows no limits. But without making any excuse for what he said, I have to admit (as much as I hate it) that arrogance is a necessary ingredient of success and general progress through innovation.

And just as a reminder to the magnitude of the task of going to Mars, Elon Musk's first plan to land on Mars was for 2015... Ahem... But in his defense, it's not easy! The successful Mars landings are less than 50% (will be exactly 50% if we manage to land one more time). So, I consider that any challenge to NASA (or ESA, or Rosskosmos) is a good one, it drives us on. 
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2233 on: September 30, 2019, 10:14:45 am »
Stephen Hawking for one.

Shockley was another.

Shockley donated sperm to the Repository for Germinal Choice, a sperm bank founded by Robert Klark Graham in hopes of spreading humanity's best genes. The bank, called by the media the "Nobel Prize sperm bank", claimed to have three Nobel Prize-winning donors, though Shockley was the only one to publicly acknowledge his donation to the sperm bank. However, Shockley's controversial views brought the Repository for Germinal Choice a degree of notoriety and may have discouraged other Nobel Prize winners from donating sperm...

...My research leads me inescapably to the opinion that the major cause of the American Negro's intellectual and social deficits is hereditary and racially genetic in origin and, thus, not remediable to a major degree by practical improvements in the environment.[33]...



Makes sense. The Shuttle tiles were essentially made of porous borosilicate glass and heat treated tetrasilicide, so it's a proven technology. But recently aerogel materials are advancing in leaps and bounds, so those may be even better.

Sandia have been doing interesting stuff with aerogel treatments (and here) for years, there's a hint in there about high performance thermal insulation

Which reminds me of a story I was told around 20 or so years ago that one of the first practical uses of aerogel was as a plasma between the primary and secondary stages in fission-fusion. Fogbank. It's an interesting read, not so much about the material but what happened when they subsequently had to reverse engineer it years later as the original production line had been closed down and the staff long dispersed or retired.


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Online farawayred

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2234 on: October 1, 2019, 04:27:46 am »

Sandia have been doing interesting stuff with aerogel treatments (and here) for years, there's a hint in there about high performance thermal insulation

Which reminds me of a story I was told around 20 or so years ago that one of the first practical uses of aerogel was as a plasma between the primary and secondary stages in fission-fusion. Fogbank. It's an interesting read, not so much about the material but what happened when they subsequently had to reverse engineer it years later as the original production line had been closed down and the staff long dispersed or retired.

(I wasn't aware of Shockley's image, thanks for posting that!)

Yeah, Sandia have been developing aerogels due to Jeff Brinker's good work for many years. Jeff is one of the leaders in the field in the U.S. and I'm familiar with his work. Livermore are doing a lot too nowadays. But unfortunately (for me), the U.S. is no longer leading the aerogel field worldwide. TUHH (Hamburg) has a strong group, DLR (Cologne) has the largest aerogel effort among aerospace entities, and France (Sofia Antipolis) is very strong. These two resurrected the aerogel science from the oblivion after 2003. And England is not far behind, especially Lidija Siller at Newcastle Uni is doing some really fine work. I'm closely connected to the aerogel field, and just recently went to the 1st International Conference on Aerogel-Inspired Materials in Newcastle. I also gave a public lecture there on Sep. 17 on the NASA use of aerogels and was thinking of posting on here if someone wanted to come, but got distracted at work and forgot... The progress in the last few years has been immense! Not only do they sell aerogel-filled clothes, hiking gear and what not (people climbed Everest in aerogel-insulated boots), but they make bullet-proof vests better than Kevlar, aerogel windows for houses, oil pipe insulation, and Aerogel Technologies are working on replacing the Airbus internal plastic panels and Ford engine covers. Mind-boggling...

Having said that, "high performance thermal insulation" is synonymous with aerogels, any aerogels. They are the best thermal insulators known to men, full stop. The issues for their implementation are mostly cost and other factors, such as hydrophobicity, structural integrity, drying process, etc., not physical limitations. There is a way to implement them in everything, but it's not always feasible. For example, the only place they can be used in housing is Switzerland, because saving a few inches from the inner walls of retrofitted houses translates into savings. For space, we use them since the Pathfinder mission; insulating the Sojourner rover was not only the only solution that fit into the mass budget, but allowed for adding a small weather station (most people don't know that little detail). We never looked back afterwards and used it on every rover on Mars, all electronics and RTG shielding uses aerogel. Cost is not a real issue for flight missions, to be honest. We also used it to capture comet particles (Stardust) and in a composite form as a vacuum pump (InSight). I'm trying to expand its application to radar technology.

So, Elon Musk is smart, porous glass/ceramics is the way to go, and the sol-gel production method applies well to them. Nowadays they make them flexible or high-temperature ( for >800 C) and they can make composites (flexible blankets). I'm trying to push for implementation in a Europa landing mission, but I've got a lot of resistance at JPL... But Elon doesn't care, he does what he wants. That's what I like about a private company which hasn't yet accumulated critical amount of deadwood... Sometimes I wish I was born one generation earlier...

Edit: That picture on Fogbank with the brick on top of the aerogel took a few tries... :) The material is very good on compression, but lousy in pull or shear (not unlike cement). if the brick tilts, the aerogel crumbles in 1000 pieces like car glass.
« Last Edit: October 1, 2019, 04:31:36 am by farawayred »
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2235 on: October 11, 2019, 01:52:00 am »
Mars 2020 rover being packed for shipping soon.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2236 on: October 15, 2019, 07:58:31 pm »
Gilbert V. Levin is an engineer and inventor; he was the principal investigator of the Labeled Release life detection experiment on NASA Viking missions to Mars in the 1970s.

I’m Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s
By Gilbert V. Levin


We humans can now peer back into the virtual origin of our universe. We have learned much about the laws of nature that control its seemingly infinite celestial bodies, their evolution, motions and possible fate. Yet, equally remarkable, we have no generally accepted information as to whether other life exists beyond us, or whether we are, as was Samuel Coleridge’s Ancient Mariner, “alone, alone, all, all alone, alone on a wide wide sea!” We have made only one exploration to solve that primal mystery. I was fortunate to have participated in that historic adventure as experimenter of the Labeled Release (LR) life detection experiment on NASA’s spectacular Viking mission to Mars in 1976.

On July 30, 1976, the LR returned its initial results from Mars. Amazingly, they were positive. As the experiment progressed, a total of four positive results, supported by five varied controls, streamed down from the twin Viking spacecraft landed some 4,000 miles apart. The data curves signaled the detection of microbial respiration on the Red Planet. The curves from Mars were similar to those produced by LR tests of soils on Earth. It seemed we had answered that ultimate question.

When the Viking Molecular Analysis Experiment failed to detect organic matter, the essence of life, however, NASA concluded that the LR had found a substance mimicking life, but not life. Inexplicably, over the 43 years since Viking, none of NASA’s subsequent Mars landers has carried a life detection instrument to follow up on these exciting results. Instead the agency launched a series of missions to Mars to determine whether there was ever a habitat suitable for life and, if so, eventually to bring samples to Earth for biological examination.

NASA maintains the search for alien life among its highest priorities. On February 13, 2019, NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine said we might find microbial life on Mars. Our nation has now committed to sending astronauts to Mars. Any life there might threaten them, and us upon their return. Thus, the issue of life on Mars is now front and center.

Life on Mars seemed a long shot. On the other hand, it would take a near miracle for Mars to be sterile. NASA scientist Chris McKay once said that Mars and Earth have been “swapping spit” for billions of years, meaning that, when either planet is hit by comets or large meteorites, some ejecta shoot into space. A tiny fraction of this material eventually lands on the other planet, perhaps infecting it with microbiological hitch-hikers. That some Earth microbial species could survive the Martian environment has been demonstrated in many laboratories. There are even reports of the survival of microorganisms exposed to naked space outside the International Space Station (ISS).

NASA’s reservation against a direct search for microorganisms ignores the simplicity of the task accomplished by Louis Pasteur in 1864. He allowed microbes to contaminate a hay-infusion broth, after which bubbles of their expired gas appeared. Prior to containing living microorganisms, no bubbles appeared. (Pasteur had earlier determinted that heating, or pasteurizing, such a substance would kill the microbes.) This elegantly simple test, updated to substitute modern microbial nutrients with the hay-infusion products in Pasteur’s, is in daily use by health authorities around the world to examine potable water. Billions of people are thus protected against microbial pathogens.

This standard test, in essence, was the LR test on Mars, modified by the addition of several nutrients thought to broaden the prospects for success with alien organisms, and the tagging of the nutrients with radioactive carbon. These enhancements made the LR sensitive to the very low microbial populations postulated for Mars, should any be there, and reduced the time for detection of terrestrial microorganisms to about one hour. But on Mars, each LR experiment continued for seven days. A heat control, similar to Pasteur’s, was added to determine whether any response obtained was biological or chemical.

The Viking LR sought to detect and monitor ongoing metabolism, a very simple and fail-proof indicator of living microorganisms. Several thousand runs were made, both before and after Viking, with terrestrial soils and microbial cultures, both in the laboratory and in extreme natural environments. No false positive or false negative result was ever obtained. This strongly supports the reliability of the LR Mars data, even though their interpretation is debated.

In her recent book To Mars with Love, my LR co-experimenter Patricia Ann Straat provides much of the scientific detail of the Viking LR at lay level. Scientific papers published about the LR are available on my Web site.

In addition to the direct evidence for life on Mars obtained by the Viking LR, evidence supportive of, or consistent with, extant microbial life on Mars has been obtained by Viking, subsequent missions to Mars, and discoveries on Earth:

- Surface water sufficient to sustain microorganisms was found on Mars by Viking, Pathfinder, Phoenix and Curiosity;
- Ultraviolet (UV) activation of the Martian surface material did not, as initially proposed, cause the LR reaction: a sample taken from under a UV-shielding rock was as LR-active as surface samples;
- Complex organics, have been reported on Mars by Curiosity’s scientists, possibly including kerogen, which could be of biological origin;
- Phoenix and Curiosity found evidence that the ancient Martian environment may have been habitable.
- The excess of carbon-13 over carbon-12 in the Martian atmosphere is indicative of biological activity, which prefers ingesting the latter;
- The Martian atmosphere is in disequilibrium: its CO2 should long ago have been converted to CO by the sun’s UV light; thus the CO2 is being regenerated, possibly by microorganisms as on Earth;
- Terrestrial microorganisms have survived in outer space outside the ISS;
- Ejecta containing viable microbes have likely been arriving on Mars from Earth;
- Methane has been measured in the Martian atmosphere; microbial methanogens could be the source;
- The rapid disappearance of methane from the Martian atmosphere requires a sink, possibly supplied by methanotrophs that could co-exist with methanogens on the Martian surface;
- Ghost-like moving lights, resembling will-O’-the-wisps on Earth that are formed by spontaneous ignition of methane, have been video-recorded on the Martian surface;
- Formaldehyde and ammonia, each possibly indicative of biology, are claimed to be in the Martian atmosphere;
- An independent complexity analysis of the positive LR signal identified it as biological;
- Six-channel spectral analyses by Viking’s imaging system found terrestrial lichen and green patches on Mars rocks to have the identical color, saturation, hue and intensity;
- A wormlike feature was in an image taken by Curiosity;
- Large structures resembling terrestrial stromatolites (formed by microorganisms) were found by Curiosity; a statistical analysis of their complex features showed less than a 0.04 percent probability that
  the similarity was caused by chance alone;
- No factor inimical to life has been found on Mars.

In summary, we have: positive results from a widely-used microbiological test; supportive responses from strong and varied controls; duplication of the LR results at each of the two Viking sites; replication of the experiment at the two sites; and the failure over 43 years of any experiment or theory to provide a definitive nonbiological explanation of the Viking LR results.

What is the evidence against the possibility of life on Mars? The astonishing fact is that there is none. Furthermore, laboratory studies have shown that some terrestrial microorganisms could survive and grow on Mars.

NASA has already announced that its 2020 Mars lander will not contain a life-detection test. In keeping with well-established scientific protocol, I believe an effort should be made to put life detection experiments on the next Mars mission possible. I and my co-experimenter have formally and informally proposed that the LR experiment, amended with an ability to detect chiral metabolism, be sent to Mars to confirm the existence of life: non-biological chemical reactions do not distinguish between “left-handed” and “right-handed” organic molecules, but all living things do.

Moreover, the Chiral LR (CLR) could confirm and extend the Viking LR findings. It could determine whether any life detected were similar to ours, or whether there was a separate genesis. This would be a fundamental scientific discovery in its own right. A small, lightweight CLR has already been designed and its principle verified by tests. It could readily be turned into a flight instrument.

Meanwhile a panel of expert scientists should review all pertinent data of the Viking LR together with other and more recent evidence concerning life on Mars. Such an objective jury might conclude, as I did, that the Viking LR did find life. In any event, the study would likely produce important guidance for NASA’s pursuit of its holy grail.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/im-convinced-we-found-evidence-of-life-on-mars-in-the-1970s/
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Offline gjr1

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2237 on: November 3, 2019, 10:33:53 am »
Mars 2020 rover being packed for shipping soon.

Just watched a program about curiosity. I see the new rover has many of the same technologies.

And also a helicopter drone which sounds cool
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2238 on: November 3, 2019, 05:16:55 pm »
Just watched a program about curiosity. I see the new rover has many of the same technologies.

And also a helicopter drone which sounds cool
True. Mars 2020 was sold to Congress as "built-to-print" rover with some modifications. In reality, the commonalities are scarce. The rover electronics are at least a decade old products by the time they fly, and the technology evolves so rapidly that the old widgets are no longer available. The new one have to go through the entire qualification program again. Same is true for mechanical components. We definitely don't want the same crappy MSL actuators, the wheels were redesigned to minimize puncture, the mobility joints were beefed up, the M2020 drill is a core drill, there is an entirely different sample handling suite... In fact, the similarities are pretty much mass, size and power source (rocket, parachute, EDL systems, etc. are the same).

The helicopter is a cool addition indeed, and it will have something truly symbolic. That's one of two technology demonstration missions. The other is MOXIE (Mars Oxygen In-situ resource utilization Experiment), which intends to produce oxygen and methane fuel from Mars atmosphere for future human exploration support.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #2239 on: November 4, 2019, 05:55:51 pm »
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/nov/04/nasa-voyager-2-sends-back-first-signal-from-interstellar-space


Nasa's Voyager 2 sends back its first signal from interstellar space

Nasa craft is second to travel beyond heliosphere but will give most detailed data yet





Twelve billion miles from Earth, there is an elusive boundary that marks the edge of the sun’s realm and the start of interstellar space. Voyager 2, the longest-running space mission, has finally beamed back a faint signal from the other side of that frontier, 42 years after its launch.

The Nasa craft is the second ever to travel beyond the heliosphere, the bubble of supersonic charged particles streaming outwards from the sun. Despite setting off a month ahead of its twin, Voyager 1, it crossed the threshold into interstellar space seven years behind, after taking the scenic route across the solar system and providing what remain the only close-up images of Uranus and Neptune.

Now Voyager 2 has sent back the most detailed look yet at the edge of our solar system – despite Nasa scientists having no idea at the outset that it would survive to see this landmark.

“We didn’t know how large the bubble was and we certainly didn’t know that the spacecraft could live long enough to reach the edge of the bubble and enter interstellar space,” said Prof Ed Stone, of the California Institute of Technology, who has been working on the mission since before its launch in 1977.



The heliosphere can be thought of as a cosmic weather front: a distinct boundary where charged particles rushing outwards from the sun at supersonic speed meet a cooler, interstellar wind blowing in from supernovae that exploded millions of years ago. It was once thought that the solar wind faded away gradually with distance, but Voyager 1 confirmed there was a boundary, defined by a sudden drop in temperature and an increase in the density of charged particles, known as plasma.

The second set of measurements, by Voyager 2, give new insights into the nature of the heliosphere’s limits because on Voyager 1 a crucial instrument designed to directly measure the properties of plasma had broken in 1980.

Measurements published in five separate papers in Nature Astronomy reveal that Voyager 2 encountered a much sharper, thinner heliosphere boundary than Voyager 1. This could be due to Voyager 1 crossing during a solar maximum (activity is currently at a low) or the craft itself might have crossed through on a less perpendicular trajectory that meant it ended up spending longer at the edge.

The second data point also gives some insight into the shape of the heliosphere, tracing out a leading edge something like a blunt bullet.

“It implies that the heliosphere is symmetric, at least at the two points where the Voyager spacecraft crossed,” said Bill Kurth, a University of Iowa research scientist and a co-author on one of the studies. “That says that these two points on the surface are almost at the same distance.”

Voyager 2 also gives additional clues to the thickness of the heliosheath, the outer region of the heliosphere and the point where the solar wind piles up against the approaching wind in interstellar space, like the bow wave sent out ahead of a ship in the ocean.

The data also feeds into a debate about the overall shape of the heliosphere, which some models predict ought to be spherical and others more like a wind sock, with a long tail floating out behind as the solar system moves through the galaxy at close to supersonic speeds.

The shape depends, in a complex way, on the relative strengths of the magnetic fields inside and outside of the heliosphere, and the latest measurements are suggestive of a more spherical form.

There are limits to how much can be gleaned from two data points, however.

“It’s kind of like looking at an elephant with a microscope,” Kurth said. “Two people go up to an elephant with a microscope, and they come up with two different measurements. You have no idea what’s going on in between.”

From beyond the heliosphere, the signal from Voyager 2 is still beaming back, taking more than 16 hours to reach Earth. Its 22.4-watt transmitter has a power equivalent to a fridge light, which is more than a billion billion times dimmer by the time it reaches Earth and is picked up by Nasa’s largest antenna, a 70-metre dish.

The two Voyager probes, powered by steadily decaying plutonium, are projected to drop below critical energy levels in the mid-2020s. But they will continue on their trajectories long after they fall silent. “The two Voyagers will outlast Earth,” said Kurth. “They’re in their own orbits around the galaxy for 5bn years or longer. And the probability of them running into anything is almost zero.”
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