Topic: Taylor Swift

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

Do we have any Taylor Swift fans in these parts? I have seen a few threads here over the years with references to TS and the discussion has always been a bit more balanced than what you tend to come across online or with people who have no real understanding of who she is as an artist or how she got here. I am sure we could all guess what the usual boring, unfair lines are that get trotted out - she is annoying, can't keep a boyfriend, only dates people so she can write songs about them, manufactured etc...

I do consider myself a fan - seen her in concert twice, the last time during her UK tour and it was phenomenal. I refused to buy tickets as they were so expensive, despite really liking her. My Husband thought this was crazy, despite agreeing they were expensive (£150+) so he ended up buying us tickets and we went to see her at the Etihad. We both came away appreciating her a lot more. He is not a fan as such, he knows some of her songs through me playing them - likes the odd one, but was visibly overwhelmed watching the show. The amount of people on stage, the choreography, the whole experience was just incredible. I really understood why the tickets were so expensive.

There is new Netflix documentary out - Miss Americana, giving a really great insight into who she is, how she got here and some issues she faced along the way and how that has shaped her:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/q07_k5VKuaQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/q07_k5VKuaQ</a>

I watched it on Friday last week when it dropped and really enjoyed it. Felt incredibly sad for her in parts. I feel like I knew quite a lot about the public things she went through - Kanye West debacle and his subsequent behaviour towards her, the stalking case, the sexual assault case, issues with the record label, her Mum's illness etc... but this documentary brought a whole new human aspect to how I viewed her and showed how she has coped through it all and has now found her voice so to speak. Really recommend it.

She writes all her own music  - there has always been tons of evidence out there to prove this, including a song-writing credit on all of her released music, a solo album that she wrote solely on her own, song-writing awards from when she was younger, videos out there showing her writing process etc... The documentary shows some of her process and that's a fascinating watch in herself. As well as how she can pick up an instrument and make music. I have always loved her as a lyricist - I think she is really clever, real and brave in some instances. She does write about relationships, how she is treated by the press/commentators/public because she is a woman who has had relationships compared to how men are treated and calls out how unfair and hypocritical that is. She has a song on her new album about that, called 'The Man'. And I particularly like the line: "And we would toast to me, oh, let the players play - I'd be just like Leo, in Saint-Tropez." Ha!

Having watched the documentary, this thread was really interesting from the aftermath of the Kanye West/MTV Music Awards incident where he did the 'Imma tell you' thing on her: https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=247431.0 It obviously did have a massive impact on her.

Anyway, I just wanted to ask if people had watched the documentary and what their thoughts were but it turned into a bit of a fan girl post.

And here are some of my favourite Taylor Swift songs, some of the less well-known ones, just 'cos why not? She's great!

'Lover' from her latest album:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/cvUAzpn48xA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/cvUAzpn48xA</a>
And I especially love the line: 'Ladies and gentleman will you please stand; with every guitar string scar on my hand, I take this magnetic force of a man to be my lover' - a nod to all those times she was heart-broken in the past and wrote songs about it and how anyone she will be with will need to accept her, scars and all. Just so powerful and beautiful.

'All Too Well' from her Red album:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/u7EexjQdT0s" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/u7EexjQdT0s</a>

'State of Grace' also from Red (acoustic version):
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/NBweBGLcRFw" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/NBweBGLcRFw</a>

[Crosby Nick]

She seems like incredibly hard work (is my considered opinion ).

[Kenny's Jacket]

She seems like incredibly hard work (is my considered opinion ).

The kind of girl who puts on Facebook "If you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best"

[killer-heels]

Love the tune 'Lover'.

[The G in Gerrard]

She's got some good tunes

[FlashGordon]

I have no opinion on her, good or bad. Make of that what you want.

[Henry Gale]

I like her, She's very very talented.

[duvva 💅]

I hadn’t paid much attention before Ryan Adams covered 1989. Decided I’d get the original to compare and became a fan. I think she’s a cut above the usual pop star. Writes her own songs and has a background in country music and can play a few instruments.

Saw her on the Reputation tour at Wembley and it was a spectacular show. Really like the latest album and the stories she tells through her songs.

I watched the doc last Friday and on the whole enjoyed it, I did feel that it wasn’t quite the whole story and despite gaining more of an insight into some of the things that have happened over the years, it still felt a bit like she wanted to retake control of some of those narratives in places.

Still as an artist I think she stands out from the pop crowd and having seen her live she can really sing,

[S]

I appreciate a good pop song and she's had many. Shake It Off and Blank Space were infectious when they were released. She obviously has a lot more natural talent than most of her contemporaries.

That being said, this documentary is not a genuine depiction of her but rather a construct. I haven't even seen it and I can already state that confidently. I have nothing against her at all, but that's just the reality of being a pop star today. The makers know what tone and aesthetic will resonate most with audiences and every minute of the documentary will have been carefully picked out with that in mind.

It might still be good to watch though, I'm not disputing that part. Pop music is best enjoyed that way I find. Accept that you'll never be totally sure what's real and what's fake and enjoy the spectacle.

[Agent99]

I refused to buy tickets as they were so expensive, despite really liking her. My Husband thought this was crazy, despite agreeing they were expensive (£150+) so he ended up buying us tickets and we went to see her at the Etihad.

I think you knew what you were doing here 

I quite like her and 'Style' is a boss song.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Can't stand her.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

I think you knew what you were doing here 

Haha! To be honest, we have a joint bank account so my money is his and vice versa!

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

That being said, this documentary is not a genuine depiction of her but rather a construct.

I agree with you in the sense that the people making the documentary aren't going to portray her as a c**t or acting like a twat for the most part of it.

Where I think you see the human side of her is that there are a lot of moments where she is filmed 'in the moment' as something happens or conversations are had for the first time and you see genuine emotions and reactions. Rather than filmed reactions where she has had time to 'construct' an opinion or a reaction.

[IanZG]

Haven't watched the documentary yet, but I like her. It's not what I would listen to constantly, but her songs are enjoyable and very easy to listen to. And I think she'd put on a decent live show. As someone said, a cut above most pop stars today. No real opinion on her as a person, don't know much about her apart from the songs and the Kanye incident years back.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

What an incredible year it has been for Taylor Swift. She released folklore (July) and evermore (Dec) and folklore won RAWK's Album of the Year 2020 (a particular highlight for her, I am sure).

I have been a Taylor Swift fan from the Red days (released 2012) - enjoyed all of her albums, some more than others naturally but it was the songwriter/storyteller/musician side of her that always appealed to me. She has made some really, really great pop records and for so many people that is their only exposure to Taylor Swift and that is a such a shame. She will always have that side and that makes her who she is but with those last two albums - folklore and evermore - it feels so far removed from pop Taylor Swift. I guess part of it is that she is 30 now? Just into her 30s, so maturing and growing up.

I don't know what has happened but since evermore, I have become so attached to both of those albums. I find myself so stunned and sometimes overwhelmed by how incredible they are. She is such an amazing lyricist - she always has been but the consistency of these albums, the themes and production and how so many of the stories are intertwined and connected is incredible. She gets to work with some amazing people on this - Aaron Dessner and the National, Justin Vernon and I think someone else from Bon Ivor. Jack Antanoff has been involved in so much of her catalogue too.

Writing about the same subject from different people's perspectives like she does with August, Betty and Cardigan is really clever.

Champagne Problems
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/wMpqCRF7TKg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/wMpqCRF7TKg</a>
"How evergreen our group of friends - don't think we'll say that word again."

Evermore with Bon Iver
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/EXLgZZE072g" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/EXLgZZE072g</a>

Cardigan
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/K-a8s8OLBSE" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/K-a8s8OLBSE</a>

Last Great American Dynasty
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/2s5xdY6MCeI" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/2s5xdY6MCeI</a>
I love the storytelling in this and the personal bit right at the end.

I just love how different these albums are for her and how well produced they are - nothing too overblown or in your face. Just so, so beautiful. I just think these are two masterpieces for her.

Also, it feels like people are taking her more seriously now. People are seeing this side of her, rather than the perception of Taylor Swift. Her songwriting with these two albums are getting people.

AND! There are some theories out there that this is a bit of trilogy and there is potentially a third album afoot... mega fans have somehow worked this out. Not sure if it's true but we live in hope!

Treat yourself to some Taylor Swift if you don't know anything other than pop Taylor Swift.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqECaJ8Gagnn7YCbPEzWH6g

[damomad]

Nice post Ciara, I enjoyed Folklore last year and haven't got round to Evermore so will be sure to now!

"Betty" makes me feel all fuzzy inside, takes me to a place I feel nostalgic for, first love, endless American summer, parties in the garden with all her stupid friends. Such a powerful song in its own way.

Rest of the album is great too.

[Drinks Sangria]

Hasn't ever written a better tune than Love Story. Next.

In all seriousness though she can clearly write, even if her type of pop isn't usually may bag - I probably preferred her earlier country-influenced stuff or her more recent 'cottage-core' stuff. It's not bad listening in the background (my girlfriend loves her and we're both working from home).

I've far from heard a lot of what she's done but I'd say she does seem a cut above a Katy Perry type or even a Beyonce - there's no credible argument that she doesn't have a gigantic creative thinktank putting together every note and syllable of her tunes.

Seems like she mortgaged her future with that whole Scooter Braun saga.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

I've far from heard a lot of what she's done but I'd say she does seem a cut above a Katy Perry type or even a Beyonce - there's no credible argument that she doesn't have a gigantic creative thinktank putting together every note and syllable of her tunes.

It's interesting to read that, as in my eyes she is so far removed from a Beyonce or Katy Perry. I guess in my mind I don't see her as a pure pop star but then maybe Katy Perry and Beyonce fans would not see them as that, maybe they have more depth that just global pop stars. I really don't know anything beyond the mainstream stuff and even then I am sure some of that passed me by.

I can see why people think that of Swift but she is so, so, so, SO much more than her singles.

Love Story, You Belong With Me, 22, We Are Never Getting Back Together, I Knew You Were Trouble, Me!, Shake It Off, You Need To Calm Down etc... would be nowhere near a list of my favourite Taylor Swift songs, though they all have a place and I really like most in their own way and they are definitely something she is (rightly so) proud of.

The last two albums especially, are not conventional radio songs from her.

Less than an hour after resurrecting this thread I see she announced the re-recording of Fearless and 6 new tracks to go along with it. More power to her.

[Zee_26]

I'd agree that there's a lot more depth to her music that puts her above some of her contemporaries. And while a lot of her singles are generally more on the light-hearted side and sometimes a bit jokey, the deeper cuts on her albums have aged remarkably well, even on something like Reputation which was not well received on release. Her best songs have this wonderful touch of either melancholy or pure happiness. If anything some of the pop sheen detracts a bit from the beauty of her songs and listening to some of her demos or concert versions on Youtube really shows how great they are.

I'm glad that she's exploring different ways of telling stories and communicating through her lyrics. I think it fits well with where she is in her life, where full-on public attention is something she's not as comfortable with anymore. Also, working with The National and Bon Iver would have helped her see different arrangements and maybe make a permanent move away from pop to something more alternative. Listening to Folklore and Evermore, I can actually imagine her working well with Sufjan Stevens or Bon Iver's more eccentric production - a match up that would have been inconceivable even two years ago.

[Macphisto80]

Shite.

[Nobby Reserve]

Last Great American Dynasty
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/2s5xdY6MCeI" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/2s5xdY6MCeI</a>
I love the storytelling in this and the personal bit right at the end.

My eldest daughter loves her (which makes our youngest also love her  ). They both went to that Etihad concert with Mrs R as well.

The 1989 album was the first to get played over and over in the car, so the first I really listened to (even if I wouldn't have chosen to do so) and I ended up really liking it. I'm not a fan of everything she produces, but there's some absolute gems.

Folklore has also been played a lot and, as it was released the day we set out to France last summer, was the soundtrack to the holiday. Last Great American Dynasty is my favourite (can't believe I'm saying that  ), but the girls both love The Lakes (which I do also really like)

I also like her as a person. Was made up when she got off the political fence and nailed her colours firmly to the anti-Trump mast, and find myself hating Scooter Braun almost as much as my daughter does, 

I take it you're looking forward to the re-records?

[Crosby Nick]

Who the fuck is Scooter Braun? Although I think I hate him just from the name.

[AndyMuller]

'Cause the players gonna play, play, play, play, play
and the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate
Baby, I'm just gonna shake, shake, shake, shake
I shake it off, I shake it off (Whoo-hoo-hoo)

That level of lyricism is unmatched IMO. One of my favourite albums for lyrics is Illmatic by Nas and I have to say the above blows it out of the water.

[Drinks Sangria]

It's interesting to read that, as in my eyes she is so far removed from a Beyonce or Katy Perry. I guess in my mind I don't see her as a pure pop star but then maybe Katy Perry and Beyonce fans would not see them as that, maybe they have more depth that just global pop stars. I really don't know anything beyond the mainstream stuff and even then I am sure some of that passed me by.

I can see why people think that of Swift but she is so, so, so, SO much more than her singles.

Love Story, You Belong With Me, 22, We Are Never Getting Back Together, I Knew You Were Trouble, Me!, Shake It Off, You Need To Calm Down etc... would be nowhere near a list of my favourite Taylor Swift songs, though they all have a place and I really like most in their own way and they are definitely something she is (rightly so) proud of.

The last two albums especially, are not conventional radio songs from her.

Less than an hour after resurrecting this thread I see she announced the re-recording of Fearless and 6 new tracks to go along with it. More power to her.

I think I've worded what I said poorly - I'm trying to say that aside from some of the pop she does that veers towards 'bubblegum,' that she has more depth and a wider back catalogue than most might give her credit for, and I respect that she does her own writing with more minimal collaboration compared to a Beyonce or a Katy Perry.

My case in point is that Beyonce's Lemonade had a full time writing staff of 100 musicians, ridiculous that she can claim much credit in the creative process beyond being the performer (which of course is a huge skill in and of itself, but in my eyes, if you didn't write it, you are a notch below those who write, compose and perform). The defensiveness of her and her legal team to refute this simply proved it in my eyes.

[John_P]

She's great live as well. Went to see her at the Etihad during the Reputation tour (excellent support acts in Charli XCX, and Camilla Cabello as well). Should've gone to see her in London last year as well.

[Mr Grieves]

I’d have never in a million years chose to listen to her had she not won the RAWK AofY poll.

Much the same as last year with Lana Del Rey, an album I would consider as a truly great album.

Anyway I did play Folklore and have enjoyed it, probably won’t go through her back catalogue  but agree this a very good album.

[Nobby Reserve]

Who the fuck is Scooter Braun? Although I think I hate him just from the name.

He rose to prominence by discovering and managing Justin Bieber.

For that alone, he deserves eternal torture with broken glass and lemon juice.

He also manages that moron Kanye West. Swift and West have a bad history (West being his typically misogynistic and bullying self), culminating in his fat-arsed whore of a wife taping and making public what Swift believed to be a private business conversation. Braun had stirred the shit along the way, and Bieber posted a piss-taking photo of him, West and Braun laughing when Kardashian released the phone call recording.

Swift had been trying to buyout the masters of her first 6 albums (she signed the deal as a naive 15 year old not knowing if she'd make it or not) for years from her old record company but had been refused. Braun bought out her old record company, taking control of her old albums. Swift again asked to buy the masters. Braun said he would sell, but demanded a an 'ironclad non-disparagement' clause that she wouldn't agree to.

Swift has now begun to re-record those first 6 albums.

[AndyMuller]

I see she has kicked off on Netflix over a joke made about her on a sitcom. Embarrassing.

[Red Viper]

I know fuck all about her bu Shake It Off is an absolute banger IMO

[BarryCrocker]

I see she has kicked off on Netflix over a joke made about her on a sitcom. Embarrassing.

She wrote on Twitter:

Hey Ginny & Georgia, 2010 called and it wants its lazy, deeply sexist joke back. How about we stop degrading hard working women by defining this horse shit as FuNnY. Also, @netflix after Miss Americana this outfit doesn't look cute on you Happy Women's History Month I guess."

In response to their:

What do you care? You go through men faster than Taylor Swift.

Nothing wrong with anybody responding to such a statement.

[AndyMuller]

She wrote on Twitter:

In response to their:

Nothing wrong with anybody responding to such a statement.

It is a joke in a sitcom.

[CraigDS]

How is it sexist?

Jokes have been made about men having lots of girlfriends for years. It’s not like only women are picked on for it.

[AndyMuller]

How is it sexist?

Jokes have been made about men having lots of girlfriends for years. It’s not like only women are picked on for it.

Exactly. How is it disrespectful against hard working women either? She is a crank.

[Red Viper]

She's just acting the way most big Hollywood/American celebs do. Hardly any of them have any self-awareness or the ability to just laugh at themselves.

[Nobby Reserve]

She's just acting the way most big Hollywood/American celebs do. Hardly any of them have any self-awareness or the ability to just laugh at themselves.

Taylor Swift going through boyfriends (then making an album out of each breakup) has been a 'thing' for years, though, with various people trying to put her down with it, so I guess that's her issue. Abercrombie & Fitch even produced a t-shirt in 2013 with "more boyfriends than t.s" on it (withdrawn after a big public backlash), and she was singled out by the psychopaths at the Westboro Baptist Church who labelled her the “the whorish face of doomed America”. She became one of the focal points in the 'slut-shaming' argument back then, and likely doesn't want that re-hashed.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I know fuck all about her bu Shake It Off is an absolute banger IMO

 

[amir87]

I know fuck all about her bu Shake It Off is an absolute banger IMO

Please stop reminding people of the multiple number of men she has wanked off. It's not what she would want.

[AndyMuller]

Taylor Swift going through boyfriends (then making an album out of each breakup) has been a 'thing' for years, though, with various people trying to put her down with it, so I guess that's her issue. Abercrombie & Fitch even produced a t-shirt in 2013 with "more boyfriends than t.s" on it (withdrawn after a big public backlash), and she was singled out by the psychopaths at the Westboro Baptist Church who labelled her the “the whorish face of doomed America”. She became one of the focal points in the 'slut-shaming' argument back then, and likely doesn't want that re-hashed.

Erm, that is literally what she did though. I'm sure even Calvin Harris who is one of her ex boyfriends tweeted after splitting up telling her not to make a record about him or something.

[Kashinoda]

Why's she attacking Netflix?

Netflixed comissioned a show that was produced, directed and written by women.

Are they then meant to watch every single minute and filter out any potentially tasteless jokes that might be deemed as sexist? Bizarre.

[killer-heels]

What a mad complaint.