Topic: Pro Cycling 2023

[Baby Huey]

Thanks for the compliment.

Doping is indeed a vexed issue. It has been so prevalent in cycling down the decades that it is unwise to assume that one's favourite riders are angels.

However, by 2001, it was pretty clear that Armstrong was taking it to a new level - and absolutely obvious by 2004 (the year of the Simeone harangue). After speaking to Christophe Bassons, the Festina rider who was abused by Armstrong in the 1999 Tour because he was writing about riding the Tour "clean", it was hard not to be bothered about doping. Certainly doping a la Lance.

It sounds like you've watched more cycling than me over the decades. So you'll be well placed to comment on how the performances have changed since the Puerto bust. But it seems to me like increased professionalism, better training and equipment, and less dope are resulting in closer races and more credible performances.

This year's classics have been cracking, even though they've largely been a Van-n-Pog show. And the Giro could be superb. Hoping to take in some of the final time trial from a terrace in Tarvisio.

The sport is more even than it was during the Sky era. Froome was a rider that never seemed to have a bad day and that’s not normal.

But that’s in the past now, and as we saw with Pogacar’s loss to Vinegaard last year these riders aren’t superhuman. The levels of performance that we’re seeing are at the same levels that we’ve seen from past champions.  These are riders that possess a vulnerability that should be there over three weeks of racing.

As important is the fact that all of the riders winning now are young, there’s no outlier type improvements, ala Armstrong, Riis, Froome and Wiggins

It helps that at the minute we don’t have a patron within the peloton, a rider everyone else knows I’d head and shoulders above the rest, this leads to other riders being prepared to take a chance and attack. This wasn’t so under the Banesto, USPS and Sky periods of dominance.

So yeah, I think the sport is cleaner now, but as we know it’s never going to be clean.

[Baby Huey]

For me there is little chance Pogacar is riding clean.
I've been watching the sport too long to fall for it.

Excuse the tardy reply mate, I went out just after my last post.

I agree with you, I doubt he’s clean, but he has show himself to be fallible. And that for me is an indication that he and the peloton are a lot cleaner.

As I said to De La, these are young riders replicating the form that we have always seen from riders destined to be leaders, Grand Tour winners, not the outliers that I mentioned above.

Look at Pidcock. This is a rider who’s excelled in every discipline he takes part in, and has done from a very young age.

Just today a 20 year old Juan Ayuso took his first win at World Tour level as a pro at Romandie in a time trial at the same town that Contador took his first World Tour pro win. Ayuso will be a team leader at the Grand Tours that Pogacar doesn’t ride.


I’ve just finished reading through the whole of this thread and one of the points that is repeatedly made on relation to doping is if you going to be a great reader, then that is apparent from an early age. Once again, not as an outlier.

[Baby Huey]

Romandie will be worth watching later today. A mountain top finish. Can Ayuso hold on? Will his main threat come from within his team, Yates?

[Baby Huey]

I’ve just seen a report that Matteo Jorgensen is going to Jumbo-Visma for 24. A great addition if it’s true. Jorgensen as we saw at the Tour Of Oman is a good, young prospect, a possible future GC rider. Versatile too, decent one day rider, will fit in well at Jumbo.

[Baby Huey]

Romandie will be worth watching later today. A mountain top finish. Can Ayuso hold on? Will his main threat come from within his team, Yates?

I’ve just seen a report that Matteo Jorgensen is going to Jumbo-Visma for 24. A great addition if it’s true. Jorgensen as we saw at the Tour Of Oman is a good, young prospect, a possible future GC rider. Versatile too, decent one day rider, will fit in well at Jumbo.

Todays stage? Worth watching.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

This bastard deserves a real bullet and his team should be fucked off as well.

Cat shooting cyclist dropped by team

The promising Italian cyclist who shot dead a cat from his bedroom window has been dropped by his Trek-Segafredo team.

Former world under-19 champion Antonio Tiberi said in February he was trying out an air rifle when he shot dead a cat belonging to former head of state in San Marino, Federico Pedini Amati.

Tiberi was fined 4,000 euros and handed a 20-day suspension from Trek-Segafredo.

But the team said Friday that they were disappointed with Tiberi during the suspension period.

"The rider's actions during his suspension did not meet our criteria for a return to competition. With the rider's contract now terminated, he is free to sign with another team," Trek said.

Trek are part of the top tier of world cycling events and have 2019 world champion Mads Pedersen, Italian climber Giulio Ciccone and American all-rounder Quinn Simmons on their team.

During his suspension 

[A Langheck]

What on earth did he do during his suspension then? The mind boggles......



Fernando Gaviria wins the final stage of Tour de Romandie; Adam Yates wins the overall.


Anyway for off-road fans, PFP (Ineos) returns to MTB in France, and wins - and on what looks like a new XC Pinarello bike. Seems Pidcock was a DNF in the men's race won by Alpecin's Sam Gaze.

[Baby Huey]

There’s more racing starting tomorrow with the La Vuelta Femenina. A week long race.

Starting with a Stage 1 team time trial, Torrevieja to Torrevieja. It’s a bit short for a ttt at just over 14km.

As is always said with these stages, you won’t win the race here, but you could quite easily lose the race here.

[Baby Huey]

What on earth did he do during his suspension then? The mind boggles......



Fernando Gaviria wins the final stage of Tour de Romandie; Adam Yates wins the overall.


Anyway for off-road fans, PFP (Ineos) returns to MTB in France, and wins - and on what looks like a new XC Pinarello bike. Seems Pidcock was a DNF in the men's race won by Alpecin's Sam Gaze.

Have a look here.

https://escapecollective.cc/are-pidcock-and-ferrand-prevot-racing-an-unreleased-pinarello-mtb/

[Baby Huey]

That's one view. I would suggest though that his input kept the thread constantly near the top of the page and therefore generated interest and enthusiasm from people who wouldn't normally bother, and maybe have even encouraged others to take up cycling.

Ive been lurking on here since 2010 and Dave opened my eyes to several races that I’d never thought of watching, and I’ve been into pro-cycling all my life. He introduced me to cyclo-cross due to a conversation he had with someone re a race taking place that day, in 2015, that race was the Worlds, the first time I was to see MVDP and WVA race against each other. He was also instrumental in me watching the Women’s racing, something I’d never thought of doing. And in the winter months both he and Redbyrdz kept my interest piqued with their back and forth. Thanks both of you.

I think there been less than twenty pages of posts since he last posted in 2017. This thread is on a life support machine.

[Lad]

Ive been lurking on here since 2010 and Dave opened my eyes to several races that I’d never thought of watching, and I’ve been into pro-cycling all my life. He introduced me to cyclo-cross due to a conversation he had with someone re a race taking place that day, in 2015, that race was the Worlds, the first time I was to see MVDP and WVA race against each other. He was also instrumental in me watching the Women’s racing, something I’d never thought of doing. And in the winter months both he and Redbyrdz kept my interest piqued with their back and forth. Thanks both of you.

I think there been less than twenty pages of posts since he last posted in 2017. This thread is on a life support machine.

I’ve been a cyclist and a cycling fan all my life. I remember watching the Eddie Soens classic at Aintree racecourse 40 years ago and getting the buzz of close up competitive racing, and I’ve subsequently been to many races since.
A highlight for me a few years back was when a group of us did a session on the London Olympic Velodrome track on fixed wheels bikes, something I couldn’t recommend highly enough for anyone with an interest in cycling. What an adrenaline filled hour that was. Can book it online.
Dave kept that interest alive for me on here with his informative writing and you yourself are keeping this thread more active.
Chapeau to you mate.

[De La Goal]

Gearing up for the Giro... There's a nice interview with Primoz Roglic here, which actually gets that he has a rather enjoyable, understated sense of humour. I think his deadpan answers to daft questions are often misconstrued. [NB - edited so link actually works now]

The final meaningful stage is a mountain time trial starting in Tarvisio, just over the border from Slovenia. Even the early part through the town has got some short, sharp climbs. Then it gets very pointy.

Not a very pleasant way to end a 3-week stage race, but it could make for a grand showdown if Rog, Remco, Tao and/or G are all within striking distance of each other. Or maybe someone else... UAE have both Almeida and Vine. And should Vlasov be in the conversation?

[Baby Huey]

The best, most compelling and competitive race I’ve seen this season was at Catalunya, I expected that to be the battle for the overall, Roglic vs Evenepoel. Of the others I don’t see any of Vlasov, Almeida or Thomas being good enough to thwart the plans of the two premier riders here. In fact I can see both Ineos and Bora getting more rewards from Geoghan-Hart and Kamna.

A rider I will be keeping an eye on is Thymen Arensman, who took the Queen stage at the Vuelta last year, beating both Mas and Angel Lopez to the line. Good tter really good climber, a future GC rider for Ineos.

[Baby Huey]

Tomorrow’s stage at the Vuelta Femenina should end in a sprint, but does feature a climb that doesn’t have the hardest gradients in the last 20 kilometres. After that it’s pretty much pan flat.

Here’s todays podium, if anyone’s interested.


1-Team Jumbo-Visma-18.03.
2-Canyon//SRAM Racing-18.04.
3-Trek - Segafredo-18.12.

[De La Goal]

The best, most compelling and competitive race I’ve seen this season was at Catalunya, I expected that to be the battle for the overall, Roglic vs Evenepoel. Of the others I don’t see any of Vlasov, Almeida or Thomas being good enough to thwart the plans of the two premier riders here. In fact I can see both Ineos and Bora getting more rewards from Geoghan-Hart and Kamna.

A rider I will be keeping an eye on is Thymen Arensman, who took the Queen stage at the Vuelta last year, beating both Mas and Angel Lopez to the line. Good tter really good climber, a future GC rider for Ineos.

Kamna is an interesting one. Has he ever been let off the leash to challenge for GC?

[SouthDerryLaggo]

anyone entering the velogames for the giro?

[Baby Huey]

Kamna is an interesting one. Has he ever been let off the leash to challenge for GC?

No.

He has only shown in breakaways, winning at last years Giro, up on Etna and another Grand Tour win at the 20 Tour. He’s already had a decent win-this season at Alpes. Withh no Hindley here I think/hope he will have a bit more freedom. Obviously that’ll be dependent on how Vlasov does.

[De La Goal]

As an aside, old clip now, but seen there's an interest on here, probably just about relevant to the 'pro thread', https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99wJn5QBvyg defy anyone who's been on a bike not to be impressed with this 1.14 pidcock hits some oil, proper bike handling

Wince-inducing, thinking how that might have ended. Though that sort of back wheel step-out is actually far preferable to a front wheel washout, from which there is generally no recovery.

As a (former, very amateur) MTB racer, I'd hazard that the way Pidcock handles it comes from his considerable MTB and cyclo-cross prowess. Off-road, sub-optimal grip and involuntary drifts are par for the course. So the handling correction would be purely instinctive.

He is very exciting to watch. Just slightly off the pace in the Ardennes classics and Roubaix - probably still recovering from his earlier injury. It will be interesting to see how Ineos use him in Le Tour.

[De La Goal]

Think you're right about MTB prowess adjusting  him instinctively, think there's more to come from Pidcock, no doubting his path from juniors, outstanding all rounder, find him an exciting rider haven't been following pro cycling much, even missed watching Roubaix this year so wasn't aware he's been off the pace but it's the new riders like him that drag you back in

It was unfair of me to say "off the pace".

Pidcock was 2nd to Remco at Liege, 3rd at Amstel behind Pog and Healy. Podium finishes like that aren't to be sniffed at. But he couldn't stay with the climbing power of the winners when they made their decisive breaks, which surprised me a little. And he looked quite (understandably) cooked by the end of each race. He admits as much in this report.

My expectations were heightened by the way he destroyed the field in Strade Bianche, but perhaps coming back from concussion (after crashing at Tirreno-Adriatico) took an edge off. Or perhaps seeing Pog, Van Aert and vd Poel making the momentous look mundane is raising the bar for everyone else.

In any case, it looks like an entire episode of the Netflix Tour de France doco series will be dedicated to Pidcock's Alpe d'Huez escapade. Should be fun.

[Knight]

Just want to defend Wiggins on the doping front a second. The man had huge pedigree on the track and then lost A LOT of weight to focus on the grand tours. He still wasn't that incredible gong up climbs but Sky found a way to mitigate his weaknesses with the 'SKy train' and then he was able to use his Time trialling ability to take time. Then you've got to bare in mid that he went from 4th at the tour with Garmin to a much, much lower finish with Sky the first time he raced it with them. That is, it wasn't simply massive improvement. Sky clearly pushed boundaries and played with the edge of the rules but 'doping' in terms of blood transfusions, EPO etc? I doubt it. And even if you don't trust Sky at all, you've still got the fact that he became a genuine GC rider at Garmin pre Sky.

[Baby Huey]

Charlotte Kool (Team DSM) won stage 2 of the Vuelta Femenina.

Due to the time bonifications at the finish, Vos is the new overall leader, one second ahead of Dygert.

01   NED   VOS Marianne Team Jumbo-Visma   02:59:24
02   USA   DYGERT Chloé CANYON//SRAM Racing   + 1
03   NED   MARKUS Riejanne Team Jumbo-Visma   + 2
04   GBR   HENDERSON Anna Team Jumbo-Visma   + 2
05   NED   KRAAK Amber Team Jumbo-Visma   + 6
06   POL   NIEWIADOMA Katarzyna CANYON//SRAM Racing +6


Todays stage is another flat one, 157.8 kilometres, the 3rd stage of La Vuelta Femenina travels from Elche de la Sierra to La Roda. Probably the same today as yesterday.

[De La Goal]

Just want to defend Wiggins on the doping front a second. The man had huge pedigree on the track and then lost A LOT of weight to focus on the grand tours. He still wasn't that incredible gong up climbs but Sky found a way to mitigate his weaknesses with the 'SKy train' and then he was able to use his Time trialling ability to take time. Then you've got to bare in mid that he went from 4th at the tour with Garmin to a much, much lower finish with Sky the first time he raced it with them. That is, it wasn't simply massive improvement. Sky clearly pushed boundaries and played with the edge of the rules but 'doping' in terms of blood transfusions, EPO etc? I doubt it. And even if you don't trust Sky at all, you've still got the fact that he became a genuine GC rider at Garmin pre Sky.

My theory with Sky is this. They were actually open from the start about what they were doing.

There was a line on the back of their jerseys, which represented the line which they would not cross. By implication that meant they would do everything up to that line, pushing the regulations as far as they could go. All in keeping with the philosophy of marginal gains.

If one of those marginal gains could be found by getting a theraputic use exemption (TUE) for one medicine rather than another to treat allergies and asthma, then they would do it. Thus the TUE for Wiggins's use of triamcinolone which, as ex-user David Millar put  it, caused "1.5-2kgs [to] drop off in like a week, and not only would the weight drop off but I would feel stronger".

So the therapeutic treatment handily also came with a performance-enhancing side effect. No ethical problem as far as Sky were concerned, as they requested and received the TUE in the correct manner. They were pushing up to the line, but not crossing it.

Unfortunately, that's not how a lot of people in and around cycling saw it. They reckoned Sky had adopted a holier-than-thou stance vis-a-vis doping, insisting on not hiring anyone with a confirmed doping past (but rather hilariously including former Armstrong domestiques like Michael Barry and Bobby Julich, not to mention some extremely questionable medical staff) and deploying a no-needle policy.

So Sky saw an advantage which, while morally questionable, was within the rules. They were then rather surprised when they received a load of brickbats when all was revealed. They needed - at least - better PR advice. Because the likes of Thomas and Froome also suffer from the raised eyebrow treatment by association. 

[Baby Huey]

Charlotte Kool (Team DSM) won stage 2 of the Vuelta Femenina.

Due to the time bonifications at the finish, Vos is the new overall leader, one second ahead of Dygert.

01   NED   VOS Marianne Team Jumbo-Visma   02:59:24
02   USA   DYGERT Chloé CANYON//SRAM Racing   + 1
03   NED   MARKUS Riejanne Team Jumbo-Visma   + 2
04   GBR   HENDERSON Anna Team Jumbo-Visma   + 2
05   NED   KRAAK Amber Team Jumbo-Visma   + 6
06   POL   NIEWIADOMA Katarzyna CANYON//SRAM Racing +6


Todays stage is another flat one, 157.8 kilometres, the 3rd stage of La Vuelta Femenina travels from Elche de la Sierra to La Roda. Probably the same today as yesterday.

Good stage today as the race headed across the plains, wind and echelons made for some clever racing riding from Movistar and Team DSM.

Stage result.

1. Marianne Vos (nld)
2. Charlotte Kool (nld) s.t.
3. Chloé Dygert (usa) s.t.
4. Clara Copponi (ita) s.t.
5. Emma Norsgaard (den) s.t.
6. Tamara Dronova-Balabolina (rus) s.t.
7. Liane Lippert (ger) s.t.
8. Alba Teruel (spa) s.t.
9. Demi Vollering (nld) s.t.
10. Marlen Reusser (swi) s.t.


GC after stage 3
1. Marianne Vos (nld)
2. Chloé Dygert (usa) + 0.13
3. Riejanne Markus (nld) + 0.14
4. Anna Henderson (gbr) + 0.22
5. Amber Kraak (nld) s.t.
6. Elise Chabbey (swi) + 0.23
7. Kasia Niewiadoma (pol) s.t.
8. Lian Lippert (ger) + 0.32
9. Emma Norsgaard (den) + 0.34
10. Annemiek van Vleuten (nld) s.t.

[Baby Huey]

Stage 4 is on a predominantly rolling route of 133.1 kilometres between Cuenca and Guadalajara. The Alto de Hurche is the hardest ascent of the day - 4 kilometres at 4.8% - with its summit 12 kilometres before the finish.

I think we’ll see some changes in the GC tomorrow with the likes of Annemiek van Vleuten, Kasia Niewiadoma first amongst equals.

[Baby Huey]

Some really great news for the u-23 women’s peloton.under-23 women with the launch of a first-ever Tour de l’Avenir Féminin in 2023.

The women’s event will begin as a five-day stage race and will take place directly following the men’s Tour de l’Avenir that is held annually in August.

“As of next year, the Tour de l’Avenir will be followed by a women’s version, contested under the same format and open to up-and-coming cyclists under the age of 23, in perfect harmony with the general movement initiated this year with the Tour de France Femmes,” Alpes Vélo announced during the Tour de France in July.

[Baby Huey]

Vos wind again on a hectic stage. A decimated peloton rode into Guadalajara where  Marianne Vos powered to her second consecutive stage win to extend her lead on GC. Chloe Dygert and Riejanne Markus sit in second and third, respectively 25 and 26 seconds down on the Dutch rider.

Results 4th stage 2023 Vuelta Femenina
1. Marianne Vos (nld)
2. Emma Nosgaard (den) s.t.
3. Marlen Reusser (swi) s.t.
4. Blanka Vas (hun) s.t.
5. Annemiek van Vleuten (nld) s.t.
6. Lizzie Deignan (gbr) s.t.
7. Elise Chabbey (swi) s.t.
8. Silvia Persico (ita) s.t.
9. Chloé Dygert (usa) s.t.
10. Tamara Dronova-Balabolina (rus) s.t.

GC after stage 4
1. Marianne Vos (nld)
2. Chloé Dygert (usa) + 0.25
3. Riejanne Markus (nld) + 0.26
4. Amber Kraak (nld) + 0.30
5. Elise Chabbey (swi) + 0.31
6. Kasia Niewiadoma (pol) s.t.
7. Emma Norsgaard (den) + 0.40
8. Liane Lippert (ger) + 0.44
9. Marlen Reusser (swi) s.t.
10. Annemiek van Vleuten (nld) + 0.46

[Knight]

What's Van Vleuten doing that far down? Not had any major mountain finishes yet?

Remco destroyed the field in the Giro opening TT yesterday, gonna be interesting to see if he can maintain that form for the 3 weeks and whether Rog improves. Because Remco will take 4+ minutes from him in just the time trials if we see the same pattern in the other 2. Tao with an absolutely cracker of a performance, 4th overall is very impressive. Think a podium is definitely doable for him.

[Baby Huey]

What's Van Vleuten doing that far down? Not had any major mountain finishes yet?

Remco destroyed the field in the Giro opening TT yesterday, gonna be interesting to see if he can maintain that form for the 3 weeks and whether Rog improves. Because Remco will take 4+ minutes from him in just the time trials if we see the same pattern in the other 2. Tao with an absolutely cracker of a performance, 4th overall is very impressive. Think a podium is definitely doable for him.

Not been watching?

Yesterdays stage was immense. I won’t spoil it, just watch it.

Today the finish is up on Lagos de Covadonga. Prior to that the race takes in one intermediate climb before finishing on one of the most revered climbs in Spain, iirc it’s been used 22 times in the Men’s Vuelta. This is its debut in this race. The ascent to the Lagos de Covadonga is 12.5 kilometres long and wildly irregular. It’s going to be an exciting day.

[Crosby Nick]

Nice to see this thread revitalised. Used to read it a lot, but not comment that often as my knowledge these days (and always) is a bit limited.

Grew up watching the Tour back in the day when Indurain was dominating. Always enjoy watching it, but have definitely watched less in recent times. Hoping this will help me get back into it a bit more.

[Baby Huey]

Give the Giro a swerve today and watch the Women’s  Vuelta instead. The Giro will  be a sprint finish, the Vuelta should be a great day, with attacks needed, big attacks to make the necessary changes in the GC.

13.00 UK.

[Baby Huey]

I’ve just remembered Tro Bro Leon is today. So hipster they’ve decided they don’t want anyone watching their race, ergo their planning it for today .

If you like Strade you’ll like this race too.

[Baby Huey]

Give the Giro a swerve today and watch the Women’s  Vuelta instead. The Giro will  be a sprint finish, the Vuelta should be a great day, with attacks needed, big attacks to make the necessary changes in the GC.

13.00 UK.

Women’s race…great.

The Giro was…meh, as expected.

[Knight]

I’ve not got into womens cycling much. Did watch the women’s tour last year and might watch the GCN highlights of today stage later.

[Knight]

Have now watched highlights... Wow, what a crazy finish to the women's vuelta!

[Baby Huey]

Have now watched highlights... Wow, what a crazy finish to the women's vuelta!

The next televised race is also from Spain, The Navarra Women’s Classic. The race starts and ends in Pamplona on a classics course with nine ascents to do. The race has been won by a pure climber in each of the two races, in it’s short life.

[Baby Huey]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/USpWmQGPBlg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/USpWmQGPBlg</a>

[Baby Huey]

I’ll put up Tro Bro Leon once I’ve watched it.

[Knight]

Van Vleuten was totally untouchable in the tour last year. Clearly not so today… what’s happened? Just a form issue? Other riders improved?

[Baby Huey]

Van Vleuten was totally untouchable in the tour last year. Clearly not so today… what’s happened? Just a form issue? Other riders improved?

Being 40 doesn’t help.   I think she’s preparing with her GT races in mind.

She’s winding down as she’s retiring at the end of the season. I think she’s only doing races she’s interested in this season. In fact I think today was only her second stage race, I know she rode earlier this year at Setmana Ciclista-Volta Comunitat Valenciana Feminines. I don’t think she won a stage or had a podium place. itzulia I would think will be her next outing, she rides for Movistar…all that said, she’s just won at Vuelta Femenina. Yet another GT on an already great palmares.

She’ll ride at the Giro d'Italia Donne and the Tour de France Femmes, it’s possible she retires with all three GT’s.

[Baby Huey]

Todays Giro was exciting for about 30 seconds, tops. Riders didn’t want to know, probably because of the length of the stage.