Author Topic: What does this Champions League final really mean?  (Read 12126 times)

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
What does this Champions League final really mean?
« on: May 18, 2005, 02:32:17 pm »
So what does this match –– this monumental occasion, now just one week away –– mean?

    Not what it means to us as fans, as hell, it means everything.

    But what does it mean for the future of the club? Is this a one-off trip to the stars, or are we setting up another space station beyond the thermosphere? Will victory make Liverpool the best team in Europe, or simply the best team in European competition? In 1977, 1978, 1981 and 1984 it was clear that the Reds were the best; changes to the rules on qualification (apparently, as of next season, they let any old rubbish in) means it's now less clear.

    When Liverpool finished 5th in the league in 1981, no one dared say they weren't the best when they won the big one in Paris. But the Reds had dominated at home and in Europe for a number of years.

    The achievement of reaching this year's final seems to have been somewhat belittled. Because of the domestic struggles, the Reds are not getting the credit they deserve for being one of the two best teams in European competition this season. Forgive me for missing something, but isn't this a one-off match where the winner is crowned Champions of Europe? Other, supposedly 'better' teams have had their chance to get this far and flunked it. Meanwhile, David Moyes believes Everton are the best team in Liverpool. While the Blues have done well, clearly he'd been drinking too much of his celebratory champagne before making that statement.

    Everton have scandalously won more plaudits for their very good season, but one which ultimately leaves them empty handed. As Steven Gerrard so poignantly pointed out, you don't get medals for finishing 4th. Does being just one more win better than Liverpool in the league (with a minus goal difference!) outweigh Liverpool's eleven extra victories in cup competitions, including top-half Premiership teams like Spurs and Boro, and in Europe, the English and Italian champions (-elect)?

    Both teams were mediocre in the league. At least Liverpool were very good in the Carling Cup, and exceptional in the the continent's elite club competition. The Reds, by reaching two cup finals in one season (and that's six since the turn of 2001), have shown their class. Not many teams do that in a season. It's not an 'accidental' coincidence. If this team isn't yet perfect, there is clearly something special there.

    It was funny to hear ex-Evertonian Kevin Ratcliffe suggest Everton could reach the Champions League final next season –– on the basis that if Liverpool could, so could they. Finishing three points above Liverpool appears to have gone to the Toffees’ heads. Was he forgetting the extensive European experience Liverpool had picked up in the previous four years –– a Champions League quarter-final, another six-game group stage a year later, and the Uefa Cup victory of 2001 –– while Everton were busy in relegation battles? Talk about getting carried away!

    Arsene Wenger was another to disparage the Reds' achievement. Speaking three days after Liverpool made the final, he claimed the Champions League had become like a standard cup, which anyone could win. He said: “The priority has to be the Premiership. If the Champions League goes well it goes well, but the Premiership has to be the most important by miles. The Champions League is too much of a surprise cup now.” Although strangely, Highbury is yet to be taken unawares...

    It’s hard to imagine him saying that should Arsenal actually get somewhere in the competition. I think Arsenal are a superb team, but can they really be proud of just two quarter-final appearances in nine years? Liverpool actually have a higher ranking in Europe over the last five years, and if the Reds beat Milan, and earn the reward of the 5th Champions League place (apt, for the 5th European Cup), then Arsenal will go into the qualifiers on account of their lower Uefa coefficient. Liverpool must be very 'lucky' indeed, in that case.

    The European Cup has always had ‘surprise’ teams in the final. It has always involved a knock-out competition, in one form or another. But it was impossible to say that Liverpool hadn’t earned the right to be there in 2005. If the competition was devalued years earlier by opening it up to teams who finish 4th in their domestic leagues –– from which Liverpool clearly benefited –– Benítez’ team at least proved worthy finalists with their performances in the competition. Frankly, the Reds have been rather special.

    While there was a modicum of truth in Wenger’s assessment –– it is, after all, hard to argue that there is no better team in Europe than Liverpool –– his statement that the Premiership was more important by “miles” was laughable, and indicative of a man under pressure in the Premiership (from Chelsea) and needing to disguise his own radical shortcomings in the Champions League.

    Anyone who thinks Liverpool reaching the Champions League final is anything less than a momentous achievement , needs only to look at how many other English teams have made it this far in the last twenty years (since Liverpool's domination of Europe ended). We are all well aware that the number is one. It took Manchester United at their very best, in 1999, to achieve the feat. So Liverpool have already 'achieved' something. That it was achieved –– unlike United six years ago –– with an absolutely staggering injury list makes it even more remarkable.

    Chelsea lost three games in this season's knock-out rounds; Liverpool, so far, have lost none. That tells a significant story. Milan were outplayed by PSV on two separate occasions, and soundly beaten in the second game. No one has outplayed Liverpool in the last 16.

    Everton, meanwhile, can enjoy their brief moment in the sun, but they need to know that a rude awakening awaits –– if that wasn't already evident after their decimation at Highbury last week.

    Arsenal were superb in the first half against Liverpool three days earlier, but in the second half the Reds showed the level of their quality and character. After 45 minutes there appeared to be an unbridgeable gulf in class, but in the second half Rafa's men showed how well the team can perform, and suddenly Arsenal were 'hoofing' clear. An equaliser never quite materialised, but it was always on the cards. On the balance of play a draw, or a narrow Arsenal victory would have been the fair result –– there was not a two-goal difference in terms of play. However, reports said Everton were lucky to lose 7-0 at Highbury.

    What Everton proved against Arsenal was that without 100% commitment and effort, they are nothing. Their second game in a week, they obviously took their foot off the gas having secured 4th place –– but Arsenal also had nothing to play for. Let's watch the Blues try to maintain their previous levels of performance every Saturday when facing a possible extra 20 games in their season. With all the extra games (if they are remotely successful) will come more injuries, too.

    I honestly believe Everton will do well to finish in the top half of the table next season. The trouble is they are now there to be shot at. Also, after the delirium of an unexpected high, the fall is harder, and further. If they can repeat this year's success, then they really are onto something, and I will hold my hands up and applaud them (while gritting my teeth). But George Burley was right to call to mind the season when his Ipswich side were relegated after finishing 5th and playing six games in the Uefa Cup.


Surreal

Does anyone else still find it all a little surreal –– the European Cup final? Weren't we supposed to build up to a moment like this over a number of years? I don't think it will sink in until I am inside the stadium, drinking in the atmosphere. It all feels like a dream, but a dream that has yet to really get started.

    I haven't even contemplated the Reds losing. Then again, I dare not think about the high should we win.

    Beating Milan, should the previously unthinkable become a reality, will both help and hinder Liverpool next season. It will mean more to live up to, as Champions of Europe; expectations will be raised. It will make the Reds even more of a scalp in the Premiership. But at the same time, it will breed confidence, ensure more money from re-qualifying, and while attracting players won't be tough whatever happens, it will make getting the very best that little bit easier.

    It all just seems so perfectly set up for the Reds. Milan are not only tired, but have an extra game to play this Friday. Should they fail to win, then Juventus will be champions –– how tired will they feel after that? After all, Liverpool had already made Juventus look rather average –– another psychological boost, to have outplayed Milan's 'betters'.

    Milan, while a great side, full of top players, have not been well of late. Their recent form has been terrible in all competitions. They are running on empty. The sensation of a season imploding around their ears is one from which it is hard to escape. While they've been playing and losing games or dropping points, Rafa has been plotting their downfall. If Milan have some extra quality, Liverpool have the elements in their favour.

    The last thing –– or the last person –– Milan's slow, ageing defence will want to see is Djibril Cissé, who is fresh and coming into form and fitness just at the right time. Maybe his broken leg can prove a blessing in disguise. He has settled into English football from the sidelines, watching and learning, and while I am a fan of Milan Baros, I feel Cissé has earned the right to start next week. His attitude and hunger ensure, to my mind, that he will. His all-round play against Villa was sensational –– he finally looked like he'd 'arrived'.

    (Having said that, Baros' questionable attitude of late might not make him a good sub –– starting Baros would be the only way to get the best out of him, as undeserved as it may seem; especially after he was dropped for his two previous cup finals, while Cissé will be "happy" just to be on the bench after the season he has had. But Cissé would still get my vote, and I think Milan will be living closer to Milan than Liverpool next season.)

    All the other serious injuries have cleared up. Alonso, Gerrard, Baros, Luis Garcia, Kewell and Hamann have all had spells from six weeks to four months on the sidelines over the winter months –– their own personal mid-season breaks. They've had just about enough time to get match fit. Finnan, Hyypia and Traore were afforded a rest on Sunday. With the exception of Kirkland and the two ineligible recruits, Benítez currently has his strongest squad to select from.

    Milan are still favourites. But they will be in for one hell of a game. In the venue where teams are welcomed to "Hell", let's hope it's a heavenly ending for the Reds, whatever its enduring 'meaning'. To alter a Bob Paisley quote, just go out and win the thing, lads, and after we'll discuss the significance of the achievement at our leisure.

© Paul Tomkins 2005


Note: Just one week left to order "Golden Past, Red Future" at discounted price.

Just to remind people thinking of ordering "Golden Past, Red Future" that the book goes to press shortly after the Champions League final (as soon as I'm back from Istanbul) and from which point the price reverts to £9.99 when buying from our website www.paultomkins.com. (It is currently £8.99 for pre-orders.) The book is currently being proofed by four diligent Reds, who at present are locked in a dungeon with only bread and water to distract them from their task.

    As previously mentioned, the book will be made available at other retail outlets, but the price is more likely to be £12.99, given we'd be selling it at a loss at £9.99 once they take their cut.

    Also, a sample chapter is now available on the book's site. It deals with this season's Premiership campaign, and what went wrong (not to mention the delicate issue of Everton), although certain sections of this chapter have been kept back for the book, including the look at the successful league games (there were one or two...). It's not necessarily the strongest chapter, given we want to reserve the best stuff for those who've bought the book, but obviously we don't feel any part of the project is 'weak'. (If it was, it would be chopped.) Hopefully I will get to write an online review of the final, but the main priority will be writing up my thoughts on it for the book.


Offline Hattori Hanzo

  • Thinks people playing with lego shouldn't throw stones.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,761
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2005, 02:37:47 pm »



:P hey hey

Offline Johnnyboy1973

  • ★★★ Never, ever, bloody anything ever! ★★★
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,649
  • Up the piss boiling, asthmatic Reds!!!
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2005, 02:39:08 pm »
What does it mean? Fuck all unless we win it. If we dont then it will cap a truly dismal season.
Where's this Yakimoto fella?

Offline Jimbo.

  • Skint
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,922
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2005, 02:39:51 pm »
(We really need a smiley wearing a fez...  :P )

Quote from: Dan_L
Chester is in chesirte, trasmneraeeeee is in wirral dfivo 1adand lpoolis merseydie lpoo2-1 everpuyokton |BluESHITE!!!!!!wert sr76yipeeeeeeeeeeeee113wt4aee

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2005, 03:09:56 pm »
Nice work on the Fez smileys!  ;D


Looking forward to this one Paul  but not gonna read it just yet as I'm one of the dozens of other RAWKites  in the middle of writing their own personal pre-Istanbul article ....


 :wave

Offline Kanonkop

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,441
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2005, 03:13:44 pm »
Great article as always.

It beggars belief that Evertonians can't see that had we not been fighting our way to the Champions League final with grace, poise and elegance then we would, beyond any shadow of doubt, have gained the extra 3 points in the league to finish above them.

They really are deluding themselves and I suspect next season will seriously pop their balloon and take the wind out of their sails whereas we will be much stronger and be able to contest Europan competitions (be it Champions League or UEFA cup) whilst also attacking the Premiership and the two domestic cups.

I can't wait for Wednesday next week, but equally I can't wait for next season to start.

 :scarf
Confucius say, "Man who walk through door sideways going to Bangkok"

Offline Red-juvenated

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,952
  • "Normal One"
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2005, 03:14:37 pm »
Agree with everything you say Paul. Everton got that 4th place not ONLY by playing a whole lot better that they expected, but because LFC consistently failed to take points in games where they lost by the odd goal. In the end just 1 more victory would have got us there, and how many times did we have a situation where we just let it slip. Everton will bask in their glory till the new season begins, and then the reality will hit them in the face. It's best for them to show humility at this time, unlike what Moyes has been uttering.

"What does this Champions League final really mean?"

I think it will put LFC right back into the league of The great European clubs, even more so if we win it. Many neutrals are looking forward to experiencing the reknowned brilliant atmosphere that has made the Kop so well known all around the world. I think everyone will warm to a passionate rendition of YNWA by the Anfield faithful, and will create a magical atmosphere to make it a most memorable European football night. That support from the fans will play a big part in the footballing world recognising LFC as a great club.

With a week to go, the buildup to the event hasnt quite started, but in the last few days, all eyes will be centered on that event in Istanbul, and the world will be exposed to all good things Liverpool.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2005, 03:19:15 pm by Red-juvenated »
Doubters to Believers

Offline Shaun101

  • Didn't take up his ticket for the Screen Sports Super Cup
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Kopite
  • ******
  • Posts: 854
  • Where did I leave it?
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2005, 03:15:47 pm »
Another great article.

It has guiled me the media's off hand treatment of our achievement of getting to the final, All the experts stated we would not get pst Juve- Then again against Chelsea now Milan. Sod 'em. Talk Sport, Sky and ITV all seem to want us to lose. I can just see it if we win the bloody thing

" Well Liverpool are the Kings of Europe once again" followed by "they can hardly be called Europe's finest finishing 5 th" They never said that about Real or US in '81. Also the common quote " not very successful since 1990" er... what happened in 2001? I am sure we won a few pots.

The best commentary on us can be found in mainland Europe. They see us as a strong side with a great manager and a club on the up with lot of potential. I bet the Italian press is talking about our strengths rather than our weaknesses.

The only manager that has performed with dignity has been Rafa. Fergie and the Pizza, Maureen with his rant after the Semi, and Professor Yaffle aspouting about "lucky Liverpool" yeh right! Rafa has been honest after every performance good and bad, never looked to blame others but has taken the questions head on in his after match interviews.

What a way to finish your first season in charge. I can see Rafa now holding the Euro Cup aloft saying to Pako. "Right that's that one out of the way, do you fancy a Premiership or two now then?"

This could be the springboard to another "bastion" period ,something Ged could not do after 2001 when I really thought we were going to move to the final level.


Offline anfield_iron

  • Boys Pen
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • "We are what we repeatedly do"
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2005, 03:24:23 pm »
To me personally it means a hell of a lot. Win or lose. If we come away from Istanbul with the cup then I'll be unbelievably, immeasurably happy. If we don't win then ho-hum. I'll be gutted, but how often do you get to go to the biggest club match your team could possibly play in? I've never travelled away in Europe with the Reds before, so I think that's what's making it extra special. The anticipation of the pre-game build up and atmosphere. Sharing beers, stories and songs with Reds from all over the place. That's what's making me feel as if just being there is going to be so very special.

As a still relatively young Red at 26 - how many people have I offended with that statement  :) - my memories of European Cup finals are limited to remembering pressing play on a video and knowing something "bad" had happened at the Juve game. This will be my own memory to treasure - I'll be able to reminisce about this one day in the same way some of you do about 77, 78, 81, 84 and to a lesser extent 85. I missed out on 2001 so this one will be all the sweeter I suppose. Hopefully it'll carry similarly happy memories a la the 4 wins so far.
"Dignity consists not in possessing honors, but in the consciouness that we deserve them"
                                                                - Aristotle

Offline kingkop182

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2005, 03:37:08 pm »
To me personally it means a hell of a lot. Win or lose. If we come away from Istanbul with the cup then I'll be unbelievably, immeasurably happy. If we don't win then ho-hum. I'll be gutted, but how often do you get to go to the biggest club match your team could possibly play in? I've never travelled away in Europe with the Reds before, so I think that's what's making it extra special. The anticipation of the pre-game build up and atmosphere. Sharing beers, stories and songs with Reds from all over the place. That's what's making me feel as if just being there is going to be so very special.

As a still relatively young Red at 26 - how many people have I offended with that statement  :) - my memories of European Cup finals are limited to remembering pressing play on a video and knowing something "bad" had happened at the Juve game. This will be my own memory to treasure - I'll be able to reminisce about this one day in the same way some of you do about 77, 78, 81, 84 and to a lesser extent 85. I missed out on 2001 so this one will be all the sweeter I suppose. Hopefully it'll carry similarly happy memories a la the 4 wins so far.

You summed my feelings up exactly mate. Win or lose it will a great night and something i will have look back on in yrs to come; my brother, dad and I with the 20,000 other kopites at the final of best club competion in the world. My dad loves to regail me of the time he saw liverpool in the european cup final and it'll be great to be able to say to him.....So have I. ;D

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2005, 03:41:28 pm »
Cheers, fellas.

Professor Yaffle:   :lmao

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2005, 03:42:43 pm »
You summed my feelings up exactly mate. Win or lose it will a great night and something i will have look back on in yrs to come; my brother, dad and I with the 20,000 other kopites at the final of best club competion in the world.


And half of RAWK  :D  :wave

Offline Anthony

  • Snot a Sailing Specialist. Has not signed for Manchester United. Misses Santa's knee!!!!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,325
  • We don't need anyone to tell us this is golden...
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2005, 03:42:45 pm »
Great article (as usual) but one clanger!

Whatever happens as regards admitting Liverpool to the CL next season (and whatever might have happened if we had finished 4th and won the CL) Arsenal will not be demoted from automatic entry to the Group Stages.

See http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/history/seedcl2000.html which is the qualification structure for the 2000/1 CL when Real Madrid replaced Zaragoza. Deportivo la Coruna, who had finished 2nd in La Liga, still went straight into the Group Stages meaning that 3 Spanish Teams went straight in and only Valencia, who had finished 3rd had to qualify.

Just to emphasise.

1) The Title Holders *do* have their own spot in the Group Stages.
2) If the TH spot is not used (because Milan have already qualified for the Group Stages via Serie A or because Liverpool are not allowed straight into the Group Stages under the 4 teams max rule) then the Champions of Turkey, who would normally have had to qualify from QR3, will go straight into the Group Stages instead (and Poland will move from QR2 to QR3 and Romania and Slovakia from QR1 to QR2).
3) By implication, therefore, if UEFA do allow us to defend the CL from the automatic Group Stage slot (by ignoring the 4 team rule) then it will be at the expense of Turkey, Poland, Romania & Slovakia who will go back to their original positions.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/qual2005.html


:wave
"We will win the European Cup one day. Aim for the moon and end up among the stars" - Gérard Houllier 2001

Thankyou Rafa and Jürgen  for taking us to Heaven!

"Hicks could have purchased Dallas' MLS franchise but decided not to. 'In hindsight, I probably made the wrong decision' he said" - Sports Illustrated/AP 2007

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2005, 03:44:13 pm »
Great article (as usual) but one clanger!

Whatever happens as regards admitting Liverpool to the CL next season (and whatever might have happened if we had finished 4th and won the CL) Arsenal will not be demoted from automatic entry to the Group Stages.


You are the man!

Just going on what I'd read in a few different pieces here and there. Trust me for trusting journos!  ;D

Offline gramck24

  • Tryathlete
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,781
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2005, 03:52:32 pm »
Just a few more articles to go before you leave for Istanbul please Paul???

Then i will have enough to read on the plane going out.  ;)

Offline Darren Page1

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 930
  • OH Jimmy, Jimmy, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jimmy, Jimmy Case
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2005, 03:59:44 pm »
great read Paul--we NEED to win this tomake your book the closest thing we have to Fever Pitch!!!!

Offline mercury

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,747
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2005, 04:01:42 pm »
    It was funny to hear ex-Evertonian Kevin Ratcliffe suggest Everton could reach the Champions League final next season –– on the basis that if Liverpool could, so could they.

mmmmm, then good luck to them.  as you rightly pointed out, the quality just isn't there.  it would be interesting to see how Everton and Moyes will cope with the extra European games.   Without laying out significantly, I can't see them progressing to the group stage where the real money rolls in.   If they lay out more on players, it  might potentially put them in financial jeopardy, with their finances not in any health anyway.  And the extra burden of Euro games..... this  might be the doom of them in the Premiership.   

Enough about them.  More about us.

No doubt  this final is significant.  It's the best spring board for Rafa and our future.  Winning it would be incredible, given the difficult season.

But the real significance is how we have got there.  We beat some very good teams with a variation of tactics - that is a genuine sign for hope.  And the most signicant of all - to me at least - is we beat Chelsea in the game, barring the final, of the highest stake.  it's so sweeeet.  It does away much of the anger against at least two of the three undeserving defeats.  It does away much of the anger against the Gerrard saga since last summer, in which some of our very own had no hesitation to twist this dagger on us.    It is a vengeance against much of the Chelsea Football Club has come to stand for.  Losing it would have been unbearable. 

Now I'm happy. I can just enjoy the final of the best club competition in the world and hope for the 5th...........  ;D

Offline wembley78

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2005, 04:04:38 pm »
Good article Paul.

Interesting to see Kevin Ratcliffe's quote about the bitters winning the CL next season.  He seems to think that our run has all been luck and at no point did the fact we have a studious, tactically aware manager, who has already had real success in Europe count for anything.   

Next season will show what happens with the bitters but i'm confident they won't progress far with little time to recover between games and travelling.

Like yourself i haven't thought about the potential high of winning next Wednesday, but then again, haven't considered for one moment that we will lose either.  There is no reason why we should lose given our CL form.  Like all of us, i've waited 20 years for us to sit at Europe's top table again and now we're there, i'm confident that the players and staff won't let us down

Offline Rafa's Red's

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 464
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2005, 05:24:40 pm »
great article, enjoyed reading that.

I think Liverpool do have the upper hand on Milan, because basically the pressure's on them. They might think that they know exactly what Liverpool will be like, but in Rafa they don't know what he's got up his sleeve in terms of tactics. Were a totally different team in the Champions League and to me I'd be really gutted if we lost now. We've come this far, we've done what has needed to be done, playing brilliant sides off the park and while I hate the bittersweet scenario in which we've seen this season with the league, I also hate the way no one's give Liverpool any real credit.

It's Smug journalists being, well smug journalists and not allowing us fans to celebrate our achievement in reaching the champions league final. They highlight obvious opinions that are the truth with us not being a class side, but we certainly should have more headlines made about this. Paul their touched on how surreal he felt the whole thing to be. I think he's very much in a majority there. But certainly with our history we deserve plaudits that recognise firstly, what an excellent manager Rafa Benitez is. Secondly, how this achievement along with what Rafa will do to the team in the summer, warrants Liverpool's opponents next season to start fearing us. But obviously that won't happen with these journalists.

On the Everton front, personally because our kid is a blue I'd like to see them do well.

Benitez in my eyes is a legend with what he's done this season. I'm so optimistic about next season but maybe in a couple of years though we'll all see the true Rafa Benitez's Liverpool.

Offline rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,764
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2005, 05:47:43 pm »
I actually find it quite funny listening to the Bitters and their fans, gives me a good laugh. On Merseyside this morning, they were saying that Kenwright reckons Moyes will go down in Everton folklore, that he will be one of the managerial greats! This is the same manager who nearly got them relegated 12 months ago!! Moyes himself has been an annoying little prick, by all means be arrogant if you've won the league - but not when you finish FOURTH, 3pts ahead of your neighbours who've only managed to get to a domestic cup final (using the reserves) and the European Cup Final. He who laughs last David.....................................

On the way back from the game on Sunday, there was a bitters fan on the phone in on City who said “we haven’t been seeded yet (!) but hopefully we will get seeded and then get an easy game in the qualifiers”. I nearly crashed laughing..

As for the sniping from Wenger, that is born from jealousy and possibly a chairman asking him “how come he made the final in his first season with THAT team,why can’t you??”.

Neither Fergie or Wenger have what it takes to consistently get to European Finals, Wenger – none, Fergie – three in 18 years, (2 at Mancs, 1 at Aberdeen). Rafa is in his second consecutive final, Maureen was close(ish) to his third on the bounce.

Actually getting to the final is surreal to me too,still can’t believe it. I have to keep mentioning it to the Mancs in work, just to be on the safe side!! At the start of the season, I was hoping for a decent run that got us out of the group stage and at every point since, I’ve been waiting for it to all go wrong, but Rafa has proved he has the nous to go all the way. Maureen had his moan after the semi, but he was outfoxed and outsmarted by, of all things, a Spaniard (I have a very good mate who is Portugese, if I want to piss him off I call him a Spaniard – he goes nuts !!) and not big enough to just accept that. Rafa knew Chelsea only had one option, smack it long to Drogba and hope midfield runners picked up the second ball. Rafa packed out this area and stopped it. Chelsea were lucky, if Djibril had been as sharp as he looked on Sunday, he would have bagged at least one of his chances.

As for who to start up front, that’s one im not sure on. Milan’s control has been suspect lately, there was one point on Sunday where he attempted to control the ball and it ran a good 4 yds from him. Against AC, we need the ball to stick. However, when he came on, he seemed to link quite well with Cisse and an ageing defence, on a hot night, won’t want to face them two in full flow. Rafa has a big decision to make.
(Didn’t Cisse dream that he came on to score the winner? Maybe that will help Rafa ;D ).

IF we win it, none of us will care what any of the snipers has to say, we’ve won it, it’s ours to keep and it goes in the trophy room alongside the four replicas.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Offline Dermot

  • Rent this renovated space for just £3.99/month. Price includes neon backlighting.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,777
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2005, 06:54:34 pm »
Good as always
The cheek of that mon, deserves a shlap

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2005, 06:57:51 pm »
He who laughs last David.....................................


That's it - they can have their mini laugh now, but whatever happens next Weds, we'll be laughing next season.

Offline 7777

  • RAWK Boxing Prediction League Champion 07
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,452
  • We see things they'll never see
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2005, 07:11:27 pm »
That article compelled me to register and post - excellent mate.

Offline hooded claw

  • Foiled by the Anthill Mob
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 23,413
    • The Plate Licked Clean
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2005, 07:15:20 pm »
That article compelled me to register and post - excellent mate.

You're doomed- that's how I started  ;)

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2005, 07:29:13 pm »
That article compelled me to register and post - excellent mate.


Cheers - welcome to RAWK!    :wave

Offline The Jackal

  • GENESIS 1:1
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,546
  • Form is temporary, class is permanent...
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2005, 07:38:02 pm »
You're doomed- that's how I started  ;)

 ;D

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Think it means a lot, even if we don't win it, primarily because of the way we've gotten to the final. We haven't been 'lucky' as wenger would have it, or had an easy route - we've had to play some very tough opposition and put in some cracking performances along the way - that means a hell of a lot, not just for this season, but for the future...
Blanco y en botella. Es leche, no?

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2005, 07:45:43 pm »
Think it means a lot, even if we don't win it, primarily because of the way we've gotten to the final. We haven't been 'lucky' as wenger would have it, or had an easy route - we've had to play some very tough opposition and put in some cracking performances along the way - that means a hell of a lot, not just for this season, but for the future...


Precisely...

Offline kingkop182

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2005, 08:11:48 pm »
;D

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We haven't been 'lucky' as wenger would have it, or had an easy route

I still cannot believe his comments, i used to have some respect for the man but not anymore. I suppose all teams have some form of luck/close scrape along the way, look at AC they were hardly convincing against psv, or had chelsea got to the final would he be saying that they were luckey against barca? I think what it boils down to is that his team cannot win it and he knows it; IF we win it then that will be 3 current EPL managers to have acheived it and this clearly worries the man as he is losing his position as a top manager.

Offline Kop

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 470
  • Lurky McLurker
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2005, 09:14:02 pm »
Quote
The last thing –– or the last person –– Milan's slow, ageing defence will want to see is Djibril Cissé, who is fresh and coming into form and fitness just at the right time. Maybe his broken leg can prove a blessing in disguise. He has settled into English football from the sidelines, watching and learning, and while I am a fan of Milan Baros, I feel Cissé has earned the right to start next week. His attitude and hunger ensure, to my mind, that he will. His all-round play against Villa was sensational –– he finally looked like he'd 'arrived'.

Thats something i've been saying since he returned.  Though you wouldnt wish the injury on anyone it may have been one of those there blessings in disguise.

As for what it means?  Just being there has made me mentally instable, feck knows what will happen to my fragile sanity if we win.  I truely mean it when i say, if we get to the final whistle and are champions, i suddenly will not care one damn if we get to defend it or not.  I'd rather win it once than just be in it twice.
Once bitten twice shy.

NEVER trust a known LIAR.

Offline Taksim Square

  • Kemlynite
  • **
  • Posts: 32
  • They're only half a football team....
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2005, 09:37:43 pm »
Spot on - of course we all want to have another crack at it next year, and I cannot imagine a scenario where we will not be in it if we win, but we wont care on Wednesday night if we do.

I remember vividly how I felt in Dortmund after the 'golden own goal', and we all said at the time 'it cannot get any better than this, can it?'. Well, it can, and it is about to.... 
We all dream of a team of Carraghers.....

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2005, 10:04:12 pm »
Spot on - of course we all want to have another crack at it next year, and I cannot imagine a scenario where we will not be in it if we win, but we wont care on Wednesday night if we do.

I remember vividly how I felt in Dortmund after the 'golden own goal', and we all said at the time 'it cannot get any better than this, can it?'. Well, it can, and it is about to.... 


Interesting user name, Matt! Just so long as people don't think I put you up to it!  :D

CD for the road trip next week is all burned, should be a good craic if I'm still conscious...

Offline Darren Page1

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 930
  • OH Jimmy, Jimmy, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jimmy, Jimmy Case
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2005, 10:04:36 pm »
I truely mean it when i say, if we get to the final whistle and are champions, i suddenly will not care one damn if we get to defend it or not.  I'd rather win it once than just be in it twice.

100% spot on -- lets not lose sight of why Liverpool want to qualify for this Competition (some might be in it for money)
Thats why i think its humerous the blue shites are celebrating getting into the qualifying rounds--lofty goals you have there lads!!!!!
Trust me too, from the man who said wed get Juve then  Chelsea before we drew them--i bet my arse Everton get Rangers or Celtic in qualifying and their only European travel will be to Glasgow in the rain!!!!!!!!!

Offline Templar

  • Kemlynite
  • **
  • Posts: 43
  • Wine for my men, we ride at dawn
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2005, 10:47:36 pm »
Yet again, Paul Tomkins has done a superb job at rebutting the likes of Arsenal's and Everton's proposition. What I like about him is that he traverses them not with superficial remarks or subjective comments, but with facts; I will be surprised if Paul is not a barrister.

As I have mentioned previously in remarks posted on Paul Tomkin's page, even the Australian hosts of ESPN in singapore are not too supportive of Liverpool's capabilities; in fact, a few Liverpool matches were not televised "Live" here while others were. Unfortunately for Liverpool die-hard supporters like me, we do not have access to Skysports, a more balanced and up-to-date channel available to English fans, which I had the privilege to tune in to when living in England not too long ago.

Everton's David Moyes blew his own trumpet about Everton winning 4th placing, just one match before his team was historically mauled 7-0 by Arsenal, whom Liverpool had locked-down 2-1 in their first leg. Thats double the number of goals everton let in than Liverpool lazily did in the latter's second leg. Moyes himself confessed to how embarrassed he felt. Liverpool were simply not interested in winning the second leg against Arsenal; who would want to risk injury and bookings fighting for 4th placing?

But I wonder if anyone noticed one fact: Every foreign player that Liverpool is linked with for next season, and even in previous seasons, sees the likes of chelsea, Manchester United or Arsenal joining in the chase. These obtrusive teams, with all the mega-bucks they have to spend, watch and observe who are the players Liverpool is keen on signing, and they spalsh their mega-offers in that direction. One example is Gerard Milito, the Argentinian. A friend of mine joked that perhaps the scouting-agents for "M.A.C." (Manchester united, Arsenal, and Chelsea) simply scrutinize the Liverpool web-sites to find out whom the reds are going after, and then make the recommendations to the gaffers at their respective clubs without getting off their arses. In Alex Fergusons autobiography, the scottish manager admitted to having consulted Gerrard Houllier about a player he brought in to the club. such is the respect shown towards Liverpool's capability to notice talent. does anybody at all notice this trend with M.A.C.?

Secondly, look at how many foreign players that chelsea or Manchester United have been interested in, who are not interested in playing for Chelsea or Manchester United. These players know that glory is something that comes with a price-tag at the two clubs - you could be playing for them one season, and if there's no glory then you're out the next. Notwithstanding Liverpool's average accomplishments over the past few years, the reds have understood the meaning of loyalty to the players. Loyalty works both ways here. Before the season started, I was astonished at the number of foreign players who expressed their interest and desire to play for Liverpool. and those that are already playing for Liverpool express their love for the team, the fans and the place. Perhaps its the same reason why my father supported Liverppol too. It began when he was an engineer on board the Blue-Funnel Line British ship in the late 50s, early 60s period - he attended  a Liverpool match with an unknown opponent. He told me Liverpool was down 2-0 with 5 minutes to go. He felt there was no hope for Liverpool (he was not a supporter then), so he left the stadium early to escape the post-match rush. The next morning he read the local papers and the match report read the score for the previous day's Liverpool match as 2-2. From then he fell in love with Liverpool, saw the Beatles performed in that famous pub, and told me you could not find a more friendly, warm, and hardworking bunch than the people of Liverpool. Hehad been all over the world, and to most parts of Britain, but he said the citizens of Liverpool had something about them that made you want to live there and no matter how hatrd you had to slog it out to make ends meet.

Perhaps thats something M.A.C. wont be able to buy with money like you can in a fast food restaurant.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2005, 10:50:25 pm by jamesronan1 »
Riise is the best!

Offline hooded claw

  • Foiled by the Anthill Mob
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 23,413
    • The Plate Licked Clean
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2005, 10:51:05 pm »


But I wonder if anyone noticed one fact: Every foreign player that Liverpool is linked with for next season, and even in previous seasons, sees the likes of chelsea, Manchester United or Arsenal joining in the chase. These obtrusive teams, with all the mega-bucks they have to spend, watch and observe who are the players Liverpool is keen on signing, and they spalsh their mega-offers in that direction. One example is Gerard Milito, the Argentinian. A friend of mine joked that perhaps the scouting-agents for "M.A.C." (Manchester united, Arsenal, and Chelsea) simply scrutinize the Liverpool web-sites to find out whom the reds are going after, and then make the recommendations to the gaffers at their respective clubs without getting off their arses. In Alex Fergusons autobiography, the scottish manager admitted to having consulted Gerrard Houllier about a player he brought in to the club. such is the respect shown towards Liverpool's capability to notice talent. does anybody at all notice this trend with M.A.C.?


Good point. It's not the first time, sadly- a few years ago it seeemd every player we were interested in was swooped on by United. Silvestre is a case in point.
Paul's not a barrister, though the wig may appeal...  :P

Offline BazC

  • ...is as good as Van Basten
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 29,562
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2005, 11:10:11 pm »
what a post...  :wellin
“This place will become a bastion of invincibility and you are very lucky young man to be here. They will all come here and be beaten son”

Offline Red Squiggle

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,860
  • Raaaaaaaafaaaaaaa in Iiiiiiiiistanbuuuuuuuuul
    • Venus in Faux Official Webpage
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2005, 11:35:52 pm »
Superb post Paul, interested in reading this book when it finally comes out and I've got the time free from academic reading......



PS enjoy the new B&S release on monday, grab the CD at the airport before you head off to 'Bul

Offline Vulmea

  • Almost saint-like.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,329
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2005, 11:41:09 pm »
Firstly let me say I enjoyed the article and its style bodes well for the book

also we have a right to get carried away we are in the Champions league final ffs

but in the cold light of day however objectionable I find Moyes and Wenger they have decent points

Wenger says winning cup competitions is down to luck - comparisons with Millwall who reached the FA Cup final without playing a premiership team are laughable but to win a cup you do generally need luck - to be fair to him he has said consistently this year and last that the premiership is his target - its also my preferred trophy - i'd rather win the premiership than the CL despite the prestige and money that follows - also we have not won it yet - we may end up defeated by a fluky goal in the final or outplay Milan just like PSV or Munich in 99 and get beat and boy we will be moaning about luck then - so a little humility is required - yes we have performed well to get to the final and we should get credit for that - but we aint won it yet by a long stretch and we have had our share of luck - a goal which wasn't being one such slice

Moyes and Everton - I dislike the man - he appears to be a bitter and ungracious individual - a young alex Ferguson and for my money the next Utd manager - but didn't rafa suggest earlier in the season that we were the better team immediately before they beat us at Goodison - the truth is this season in the Premiership Everton have been the better team - their spirit and commitment has dragged them up into 4th whilst our lack of those same qualities has seen us finish 5th - our worst performance for years and not good enough - we can hide behind our dislike of Moyes and laugh at Evertons prospects next year but however lucky we think they have been (and I think they have been very very lucky btw with no injuries, or suspensions, playing teams in europe, getting little decisions go their way, the opposition hitting the woodwork, late goals  etc etc)) they have shown far more spirit than us - and poor as I think most of their players are technically they have earned their right to compete in the CL and to say that this year at least they have proved in the Premiership to be the better team.

As for what the champions league final means - Liverpools name is once again on lips around europe but if we don't continue to improve it will mean little - to be acknowldged in the elite we have to have sustained success and that means trophies and on a regular basis - it means demonstrating to europe that we are amongst the top 8 teams reaching the finals each year -  Utd have finished 3rd two years running in the Prem and won the FA cup last year and they are in decline, they says its not good enough but their record is still much better than ours

Perhaps our appearnace will draw in big names, players, sponsors, investors, perhaps it will spark a new era - those things are all 'possibilities' because of the achievement this season - but at present they are just that

so for me does it mean anything - yes hope is reborn and to quote the man we now have more 'possibilities' and watch this space








« Last Edit: May 18, 2005, 11:45:54 pm by Vulmea »
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Offline Templar

  • Kemlynite
  • **
  • Posts: 43
  • Wine for my men, we ride at dawn
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2005, 12:18:44 am »
To Vulmea, let me say I beg to differ. you must understand, Gerrard and finnan had already admitted way back that they were not motivated by the PL. They were more interested in the CL. And its not surprising, because as Benitez said, Liverpool has a relatively small squad this season, and for the players to be able to have renewed aim and motivation to go for all three titles would be unrealistic. Liverpool IS by far a better team. As I said recently, we beat Arsenal 2-1 and lost 3-1 to them more recently. Arsenal mauled them 4-1 and 7-0 in both legs respectively. Yes, everton still reached 4th placing; but every year some team from the bottom half of the table does the unexpected and surprises us all. Portsmouth was one example. Everton is a flash in the pan. Look at how Liverpool plays, you can see them holding back - avoiding going in for the lunge-tackle, and other hints that they simply didnt want to be the monkey with its hand in the cookie jar, only to emerge as united and Manchester United did - with nothing to show, except perhaps, the consolation FA Cup. Liverpool did the smartest thing and focused on the most prestigious - the CL. And I will tell you why the CL is more prestigious compared to the mundane PL. Year in and year out you play almost the same teams in the PL, "I win this year, you win next year". But with the CL there is no telling who will be your opponent in the next tournament. and it involves different international styles, different environment, and the best of Europe. alex and Wenger have been over-shadowed by the two top mangers in the world today according to an official report: Benitez and Mourinho have introduced the latest and most sophisticated of football tactics on English soil. Soccer is now a chess game, ever more so interesting. Lets see if the likse of Moyes, Ferguson or Wenger can walk their talk. I prefer Benitez's style - let the results show.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2005, 12:21:07 am by jamesronan1 »
Riise is the best!

Online afc tukrish

  • How long for them sausages? Maggie May's Mythical Turkish Delight. RAWK's Expert Sausage Monster! Oakley Cannonier is fucking boss. Likes blowing his friends and undoing their nuts? Who nose?!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,934
  • This looks like a nice spot...
    • Flat Back Four
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2005, 12:32:15 am »
You're doomed- that's how I started  ;)

no, no, 7777 was referring to posting, not wanking... :P
Since haste quite Schorsch, but Liverpool are genuine fight pigs...

Offline woof

  • Barking up the wrong tree.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,709
Re: What does this Champions League final really mean?
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2005, 04:41:03 am »

also we have a right to get carried away we are in the Champions league final ffs

but in the cold light of day however objectionable I find Moyes and Wenger they have decent points
As for what the champions league final means - Liverpools name is once again on lips around europe but if we don't continue to improve it will mean little - to be acknowldged in the elite we have to have sustained success and that means trophies and on a regular basis - it means demonstrating to europe that we are amongst the top 8 teams reaching the finals each year -  Utd have finished 3rd two years running in the Prem and won the FA cup last year and they are in decline, they says its not good enough but their record is still much better than ours

so for me does it mean anything - yes hope is reborn and to quote the man we now have more 'possibilities' and watch this space


Excellent points and my sentiments exactly. Let's gloat all we want AFTER we have won the CL. Like Shankly said, there are no prizes for finishing 2nd. We have to win CL when we have the chance. What we accomplished this season means nothing at all next season.

I won't dare say we are primed to win the match against Milan. The fact that they are the other finalist gives them enough cred to be champions. I only pray that our players give their 110%, play their hearts out and play to Rafa's tune. Rafa is truly a master tactician and we all have faith in him to outwit any opponent.

I'll be there at the Celtic Club on Queens St, Melbourne on Thursday morning to do my 'bit'