Author Topic: Listing potential reasons for our decline  (Read 7073 times)

Offline Fromola

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #80 on: February 6, 2023, 09:25:15 am »
Philips on £64k... why?

He was on 3k a year before the extension. By the time his contract is up we'll have paid him in wages the fee we were holding out for all these years.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #81 on: February 6, 2023, 09:27:33 am »
Was always a mad extension at the time. I remember I think we wanted closer to £15m for him but no bids at that level came in.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #82 on: February 6, 2023, 09:30:16 am »
Was always a mad extension at the time. I remember I think we wanted closer to £15m for him but no bids at that level came in.

If we weren't going to sell him then his agent would be in his rights to say you want 15 mill then give him a first team salary if you won't sell him for less. He shouldn't have got that big a raise and we should have took less so its more fuzzy thinking.

That being said he should start next week over Gomez. Another big contract extension for a regularly injured back up who we could have got good money for in the summer.
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #83 on: February 6, 2023, 09:33:20 am »
Do you have a better source than the S*n that says he's on £64,000 a week Fromola/KH?
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #84 on: February 6, 2023, 09:35:43 am »
Do you have a better source than the S*n that says he's on £64,000 a week Fromola/KH?

I didnt use the S*n and in terms of his contract when he signed i read somewhere that he was on £50k a week.

Offline vblfc

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #85 on: February 6, 2023, 09:52:34 am »
Looks like the mental/physical fatigue is spread pretty much across the club. It is quite a meltdown. I think (reading all the threads in here) it is also in ourselves, the fans. Even the new players that have joined look like they almost immediately carry the burden. Obviously very complex set of circumstances, caused by all the above reasons in OP, otherwise I am sure Klopp and the guys would have sorted it. I liked the recent example he gave of Rashford at United. Looked dead and gone last season and now has refound his energy and looks a top player. I think that example can apply to quite a few of our guys - they need to work their way back into form. Another good example is Fabinho. Being written off as being done and we should let him go. Look at his fellow countryman Casemiro at United. He has won just about everything at Madrid, is older than Fab, looked pretty crap or maybe done when he signed for United. Suddenly he is in form again and is being called the best DM in the League (admittedly by the rat on Sky, but…)
This refinding of form seems to apply to many of our players. Almost too many to list. We can’t sack them all off and start again (a general theme in many threads.)
I think Klopp knows rediscovering form, rhythm, confidence, basic formation, passing, scoring, defending (yes - lots of basic things) is his job now until end of season. If it was easy, he would have done it already. But the good news is he has been here before at Dortmund and with us during covid. We need to be patient.  Some injured players returned, some form rediscovered, some key roles appointed at the club, and yes some new players next summer and we will be back.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #86 on: February 6, 2023, 09:54:48 am »
I didnt use the S*n and in terms of his contract when he signed i read somewhere that he was on £50k a week.

So whats the reliable source that says he's on £64,000 a week then...? Cos you know, considering its been a RAWK meme for a good year or so, now that people genuinely believe that we extended Nat Phillips to a level that at the time would have been more than quite a few of our first teamers it'd be interesting to know where the sudden reliable info has come from?

https://lfcglobe.co.uk/liverpool-fc-players-wages-contract-details/

I mean.....this is the sort of site people get their info from and then genuinely use it as if its gospel. Bobby Clarke is on as much as Elliott, Jones and Kelleher combined. Nat Phillips is on more than Robbo and Diaz, the same sort of level as Konate and Gomez. Seems likely. Some bloke is sat in his mums basement posting nonsense player wages on the internet and chuckling when people take them seriously.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Knight

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #87 on: February 6, 2023, 03:34:19 pm »
I agree with 95% of what is written above.

The wages paid to the team are below, I have no idea if they are accurate.

https://www.spotrac.com/epl/liverpool-fc/payroll/

You’d expect Hendo to be among the highest earners, he’s club captain.

I got it from here Lobo. May well be totally wrong, just followed the link and saw it.

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #88 on: February 6, 2023, 04:39:49 pm »
I am more than likely misremebering but I thought that he (Matt) went from 3k to £16k pw.
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Offline Gerard00

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #89 on: February 6, 2023, 04:44:16 pm »
-Dysfunctional forward line
-Poor cohesion between midfield and defence (can't we just plant 2 players in front of the back 4 next game please)
-Injuries
-Form drop off from TAA, Robbo, Matip, Fab, Salah
-Letting Mane,Origi and Minimoto leave in same window
-Not buying midfielders
-Choosing wrong type of players up top (Gakpo and Nunez)

Offline Draex

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #90 on: February 6, 2023, 04:45:58 pm »
I'd say keeping up with a cheat club which finally broke us last season is high on my list.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #91 on: February 6, 2023, 04:50:23 pm »
I got it from here Lobo. May well be totally wrong, just followed the link and saw it.

And if you go back to 19/20 on there its got Nat Phillips...on £64k a week, before he even signed an extension :D

I guess we saw some real, real promise from that loan spell to Stuttgart. Poor lad probably googles himself and cries every time he sees that he's allegedly on £64k a week.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #92 on: February 6, 2023, 05:23:39 pm »
Do you have a better source than the S*n that says he's on £64,000 a week Fromola/KH?

The S*n! What are you talking about? I didn't say he was on that, other posters have quoted those figures.
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Offline paisley1977

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #93 on: February 6, 2023, 06:06:58 pm »
On the subject of Fabinho losing form he won't be the first or last player to go backwards after his wife giving birth.
A new baby can can disrupt any house hold.
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Offline Fromola

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #94 on: February 6, 2023, 06:10:11 pm »
On the subject of Fabinho losing form he won't be the first or last player to go backwards after his wife giving birth.
A new baby can can disrupt any house hold.

I know he's had a poor season but he looked good at Villa (if not at his top level) then he missed the Leicester game with his wife giving birth and we were horrific in that game with many pointing to his absence, although Elliott came in rather than Bajcetic which made no sense at the time.

He hasn't actually played much since. Brentford and Brighton basically had our number and then he got dropped and has struggled coming on as a late sub.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline rocco

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #95 on: February 6, 2023, 06:12:33 pm »
7. Change in philosophy in our style of play

Offline shank94

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #96 on: February 6, 2023, 06:45:50 pm »

-Letting Mane,Origi and Minimoto leave in same window


I was worried about this since on counting we essentially lost 50 goals (Goals+Assists) in these players compared to last season. Nunez and Gakpo have not hit the stride while Jota and Diaz have been consistently injured, it still does not explain the drop off in the defense and midfield. It's not like we needed to outscore to win last year.
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Offline Fromola

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #97 on: February 6, 2023, 06:54:33 pm »
I was worried about this since on counting we essentially lost 50 goals (Goals+Assists) in these players compared to last season. Nunez and Gakpo have not hit the stride while Jota and Diaz have been consistently injured, it still does not explain the drop off in the defense and midfield. It's not like we needed to outscore to win last year.

There's stacks of reasons behind this season's failures, most of which could have been plastered over with a good transfer window last summer.

However, in terms pure personnel with midfield: Fabinho and Henderson falling off a cliff at the same time with their performances. They were still at a good level last season. The concern was more regarding Henderson's durability in terms of his age and fitness and Thiago and Keita's injury record. We obviously needed more but the scale of the drop off of those 2 wasn't foreseen.

Forwards - Diaz and Jota being out most of the season. 2 of our livelier players. Made it tougher for Nunez to settle in and left Salah more isolated as well as the woes of the midfield impacting on the service.

Defence - lack of any protection from midfield put them under the cosh from day one and made playing a high line unworkable.

Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Dim Glas

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #98 on: February 6, 2023, 07:01:31 pm »
On the subject of Fabinho losing form he won't be the first or last player to go backwards after his wife giving birth.
A new baby can can disrupt any house hold.

how many wives has he got? The one that gave birth most recently - only happened last month.

He’s been ‘off’ far longer than that.

Offline El_Macca_17

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #99 on: February 6, 2023, 08:14:51 pm »
I got it from here Lobo. May well be totally wrong, just followed the link and saw it.

If that’s right and Diaz really is on less than Adrían, then he needs a new agent.
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #100 on: February 6, 2023, 09:14:50 pm »
If that’s right and Diaz really is on less than Adrían, then he needs a new agent.

We all need Nat Phillips agent. I reckon he’d have got Haaland about £3 million a week, and that’s just on the books
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline rojo para la vida

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #101 on: February 6, 2023, 09:16:29 pm »
Divock Origi. He doesn't have to play but he should stay on the pay roll until he's at least 70. We need our good luck charm back.

Offline GBF

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #102 on: February 6, 2023, 09:50:19 pm »
#1 & #2 lead to the rest

We had a preview of this in 20/21 and we let it go

01111001 01101111 01110101 00100111 01101100 01101100 00100000 01101110 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 00100000 01110111 01100001 01101100 01101011 00100000 01100001 01101100 01101111 01101110 01100101

Offline bornandbRED

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #103 on: February 6, 2023, 11:05:56 pm »
I think it’s the first time under Klopp there have been no green shots whatsoever. You could accuse us in the past of having a soft underbelly, leaky defence, lack of control or whatever. But there’s always been an underlying framework which you could see was being built towards.

There’s not one positive about us at the moment. We’re just shite. You’d normally be optimistic for any knockout game in the CL because you know they have to come to Anfield - but right now it feels like it did in 14/15 when you knew they’d turn us over. You now go into games against relegation contenders expecting not to win. We’ve somehow become a vanilla side with no identity and no intensity - with a bunch of square pegs in round fucking holes. With defensive stats mirroring relegation level teams.

We’ve seen it before. Losing identity was Rodgers’ downfall - I really hope it’s not Jurgen’s but I can’t help but think how the fuck have we got here under this manager?
« Last Edit: February 6, 2023, 11:07:54 pm by bornandbRED »

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #104 on: February 7, 2023, 11:07:46 am »
I think it’s the first time under Klopp there have been no green shots whatsoever. You could accuse us in the past of having a soft underbelly, leaky defence, lack of control or whatever. But there’s always been an underlying framework which you could see was being built towards.

There’s not one positive about us at the moment. We’re just shite. You’d normally be optimistic for any knockout game in the CL because you know they have to come to Anfield - but right now it feels like it did in 14/15 when you knew they’d turn us over. You now go into games against relegation contenders expecting not to win. We’ve somehow become a vanilla side with no identity and no intensity - with a bunch of square pegs in round fucking holes. With defensive stats mirroring relegation level teams.

We’ve seen it before. Losing identity was Rodgers’ downfall - I really hope it’s not Jurgen’s but I can’t help but think how the fuck have we got here under this manager?

On the plus side it should really remove the sentiment around moving players on and make the task clearer.

Offline Smudge

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #105 on: February 7, 2023, 11:36:50 am »
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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #106 on: February 7, 2023, 11:47:21 am »
how many wives has he got? The one that gave birth most recently - only happened last month.

He’s been ‘off’ far longer than that.

Only gave birth last month, but that doesn't mean there were no complications in the previous 9 months.
Speculation of course and the pregnancy/birth/first month is equally as likely to have absolutely nothing to do with his form.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #107 on: February 7, 2023, 04:10:31 pm »
We don’t go from near quadruple winners to mid table unless something is seriously wrong. Ok fatigue, mental and physical, together with a lack of investment play a part, but don’t explain the drop off the edge of the cliff.
I've been reading a book about the collapse of multiple societies/cultures around the eastern Mediterranean around 1200BC, because that's the sort of exciting thing I fill my time with. And discussion of the reasons why they collapsed becomes oddly similar to these threads.

Even the "fell off a cliff" line. There's a name for it: the Seneca Curve, after the Roman philosopher who observed that progress was generally slow and gradual, but decline could be sudden and brutal.

This is 'Systems Collapse'. The more complex the system, the more sudden and severe the collapse. It's similar to chaos theory, or the butterfly effect.

Obviously, this can be applied to our tactics at a fairly simple level: our success is based on intensity, pressure and control, which have suffered with the premature ageing of midfielders, exposing weaknesses in both attack and defence as the glue that holds the team together cracks.

But it also applies to our organisational structure; FSGs ownership model, investment levels, Gordon stepping away from his coordinating role, Edwards moving on, Ward/Graham resignations, shifts in the balance of power between recruitment and coaching.

It's a complex system. Elements not only complement and support each other, but also at times compete, contradict and oppose. It's the complexity of the network of those relationships which makes the system, held in balance by tension as much as cooperation.

A small changes or added tension/stress applied at some point in the structure - and we've had more than that - can fundamentally change the balance. Systems Collapse then describes how small changes in a number of areas within a complex system can trigger a multiplier effect, breaking links between elements of the system, putting greater strain on others, shifting the balance and stresses within the remainder, to bring the whole thing down, suddenly and, apparently, inexplicably.

But this is only football, and we're only midtable.

Interestingly another observation of system collapses is that those in charge of the system, whatever it is, often recognise the problems and make changes to try and address them - but it can be really quite difficult to know whether those changes will make things better or worse, without hindsight.
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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #108 on: February 7, 2023, 05:54:36 pm »
VVD - Not the same since injury
TAA - Not in the games
Gomez - Not good enough
Tsimikas - Not good enough
Matip - Not good enough
Ramsay - Not good enough
Phillips- Not good enough
Fabinho - Not good enough
Thiago - Flashes only, not consistent
Milner - Age
Hendo - Age
Keita - Not good enough
Oxlade Chamberlain - Not good enough
Jones - Not good enough
Salah - Position change needed
Núñez - Still early, but he needs to start putting them away
Gakpo- Still early.


We have too many players in the squad that wouldn’t make any of the top 6 teams.

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Offline tubby

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #109 on: February 7, 2023, 05:55:57 pm »
What are you basing your rating for Ramsay on?
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Offline paisley1977

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #110 on: February 7, 2023, 06:38:52 pm »
VVD - Not the same since injury
TAA - Not in the games
Gomez - Not good enough
Tsimikas - Not good enough
Matip - Not good enough
Ramsay - Not good enough
Phillips- Not good enough
Fabinho - Not good enough
Thiago - Flashes only, not consistent
Milner - Age
Hendo - Age
Keita - Not good enough
Oxlade Chamberlain - Not good enough
Jones - Not good enough
Salah - Position change needed
Núñez - Still early, but he needs to start putting them away
Gakpo- Still early.


We have too many players in the squad that wouldn’t make any of the top 6 teams.



Apart from the bottom two the others were good enough last season.
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Offline call me red

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #111 on: February 7, 2023, 07:24:56 pm »
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Offline MaradonaPisstest

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #112 on: February 7, 2023, 07:35:14 pm »
I've been reading a book about the collapse of multiple societies/cultures around the eastern Mediterranean around 1200BC, because that's the sort of exciting thing I fill my time with. And discussion of the reasons why they collapsed becomes oddly similar to these threads.

What's the book out of interest?

Offline Devastatin' Dave

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #113 on: February 7, 2023, 08:00:43 pm »
Bring very simplistic: If anyone has experienced being burnt out at work, you either need a time away from work or a job somewhere else to reset.

This season  is a write off, and next year will be a fresh one.

Some players/personnel will have a break and be refreshed and others will move on.

Offline Penfold78

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #114 on: February 7, 2023, 08:57:39 pm »
Going in the direction of a French philosophical  movie this. Because what I would say in response is the system, whether it is LFC, or the ancient Eastern Mediterranean, or 21st century food production, was ultimately a failure, or in another way of speaking, a false success. Winning and progress create a faith in the system. Which is very different to knowing that the system definitely works. If the system collapses so suddenly it was never really that well built and the faith was blind to something that was hard to evidence.

*and with that, he let go of his lover, lowered his eyes mournfully, exhaled a dart of cigarette smoke, sighed and turned his back to the cold Parisian night*

As I said in a different thread, winning can paper over a huge amount of cracks.

I've been reading a book about the collapse of multiple societies/cultures around the eastern Mediterranean around 1200BC, because that's the sort of exciting thing I fill my time with. And discussion of the reasons why they collapsed becomes oddly similar to these threads.

Even the "fell off a cliff" line. There's a name for it: the Seneca Curve, after the Roman philosopher who observed that progress was generally slow and gradual, but decline could be sudden and brutal.

This is 'Systems Collapse'. The more complex the system, the more sudden and severe the collapse. It's similar to chaos theory, or the butterfly effect.

Obviously, this can be applied to our tactics at a fairly simple level: our success is based on intensity, pressure and control, which have suffered with the premature ageing of midfielders, exposing weaknesses in both attack and defence as the glue that holds the team together cracks.

But it also applies to our organisational structure; FSGs ownership model, investment levels, Gordon stepping away from his coordinating role, Edwards moving on, Ward/Graham resignations, shifts in the balance of power between recruitment and coaching.

It's a complex system. Elements not only complement and support each other, but also at times compete, contradict and oppose. It's the complexity of the network of those relationships which makes the system, held in balance by tension as much as cooperation.

A small changes or added tension/stress applied at some point in the structure - and we've had more than that - can fundamentally change the balance. Systems Collapse then describes how small changes in a number of areas within a complex system can trigger a multiplier effect, breaking links between elements of the system, putting greater strain on others, shifting the balance and stresses within the remainder, to bring the whole thing down, suddenly and, apparently, inexplicably.

But this is only football, and we're only midtable.

Interestingly another observation of system collapses is that those in charge of the system, whatever it is, often recognise the problems and make changes to try and address them - but it can be really quite difficult to know whether those changes will make things better or worse, without hindsight.
« Last Edit: February 7, 2023, 09:19:12 pm by Penfold78 »

Offline redmark

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #115 on: February 7, 2023, 10:39:50 pm »
What's the book out of interest?
1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed, Eric Cline. Not the most rivetingly written read, but interesting subject matter.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #116 on: February 7, 2023, 10:40:56 pm »
Going in the direction of a French philosophical  movie this. Because what I would say in response is the system, whether it is LFC, or the ancient Eastern Mediterranean, or 21st century food production, was ultimately a failure, or in another way of speaking, a false success. Winning and progress create a faith in the system. Which is very different to knowing that the system definitely works. If the system collapses so suddenly it was never really that well built and the faith was blind to something that was hard to evidence.

*and with that, he let go of his lover, lowered his eyes mournfully, exhaled a dart of cigarette smoke, sighed and turned his back to the cold Parisian night*

As I said in a different thread, winning can paper over a huge amount of cracks.

The point is, all systems fail, or become a different system. Eventually.
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Offline redk84

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #117 on: February 8, 2023, 10:42:46 am »
Everything would be a guess or a partial truth because we just don't know what has gone on behind closed doors.

I had every faith Klopp would get a tune out of what players he has available by now - but it's February and he hasn't. We know he is a world class coach, one we want to continue coaching here (not the anonymous idiots on twitter apparently but I'm guessing everyone else)
So for him to not be able to get us going - especially with how badly we have been post WC - there must be exceptional circumstances or a cluster fuck that even he can do nothing about...

He'll get us back playing well again but it's anybody's guess when that is.
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