Author Topic: The 2019 Formula One Thread  (Read 140172 times)

Offline gazzalfc

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2019, 03:59:25 pm »
They did that last year and had a lot of dead air to fill. Hope they find ways to improve it

Offline paulrazor

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2019, 04:16:07 pm »
They did that last year and had a lot of dead air to fill. Hope they find ways to improve it
be better off doing highlights of it
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Offline bradders1011

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2019, 07:42:05 pm »
yeah there will be a whole lot of nothing to fill

They've had a few seasons' practice in the races now.
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Offline paulrazor

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2019, 10:57:04 pm »
They've had a few seasons' practice in the races now.
haha. I did think that
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Offline clinical

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2019, 09:20:41 am »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/46927041

Ex-Formula 1 racer Eddie Irvine has called four-time World Champion Sebastian Vettel a "one-trick pony" in a scathing assessment of the Ferrari driver.

Irvine described Vettel as "massively overrated" and says he can't understand how the German secured four successive titles between 2010 and 2014.

He also said Lewis Hamilton is the best driver of this era, but the British five-time world champion "isn't even close" to Michael Schumacher.

Northern Irishman Irvine raced for Ferrari from 1996-99 and finished runner-up in the 1999 championship, also competing for Jordan and Jaguar in a colourful career that included four race wins.

Irvine, now 53, doesn't hold back when talking about the current stature of the sport.

"Formula 1 was still very, very popular when Michael and I were racing," he said. "I think it was a more exciting era but it's less popular now."

Despite admitting he follows Formula 1 with less interest than when he used to compete in it, Irvine isn't shy about commenting on the current crop of drivers.

"I think Lewis is in a different league from all of them," said Irvine, although that praise is tainted by comparison. "He's not in Michael's league and I don't even think he is close, although he's racking up lots of wins. He's got the best car, there are more races and the competition is debateable.

"I think Vettel is good if he is at the front and doesn't have anybody to race. When you watch Lewis race, he's focused on racing and Lewis is really focused on getting ahead of the other guy.

"Vettel, when he is racing is someone, is focused as much on the other guy as he is on where he is going and inevitably crashes into the other guy, which happens nearly all the time.

"I think Vettel is a good driver, but as a four-times world champion, I just don't see it. I think he is massively overrated, he's a one-trick pony and Lewis has a much broader talent.

"Michael was on it every day, like Senna, but Lewis has his off days," he added. "If you look over the two years Lewis and (Jenson) Button were together, Button actually outscored him over two years.

"No-one ever did that to Michael, his level of performance was consistently higher.

"Lewis is an amazingly talented driver. When he first came to Formula 1 he was fantastic to watch and his overtaking was second to none. He's probably a better overtaker than Michael was, but for pace, and consistency over a whole weekend, over a whole year, I don't think anyone touches Michael, even Senna."

"I think Michael was probably the best ever. I think Senna's technique was flawed. He was this amazingly talented driver and had an amazing touch, but he had a couple of techniques that weren't correct and he didn't look into everything.

"I remember at the Japanese Grand Prix, Michael was fastest and I was second fastest, in my first grand prix into the pit lane. Senna was only fourth of fifth.

"Michael practiced the pit entry and Senna didn't, so there's things that he missed. I'm a huge fan of him but I think Michael would have, well Michael did beat him, when they were racing.

"Over one lap Senna was an amazing driver, but I think his technique was slightly flawed. I couldn't have faulted Michael's technique.

"Technically, he wasn't that great but his actual talent with his feet, arms, feel and anticipation were second to none.

"There were corners I couldn't do what he was doing. Then he would just copy me in the corners I was quicker than him.

"I remember Silverstone I was much faster at the last corner and he couldn't figure out what I was doing. He'd always go through the telemetry and figured it out, then he'd just copy me. So that was the problem for me, he just had and amazing talent which you can't copy."

It's evident Irvine still cares about the sport, just not in its current guise and he craves a return to the Formula 1's roots.

"I don't watch it anymore because it bores me," he admitted. "I watch the cars go around the circuit and I think this is incredibly boring because it is so flat.

"It's quite synthetic and it's not raw. It's too perfect and when you make a mistake you don't pay a price. I think the least you should do if you make a mistake is lose a lot of time.

"In the 1950s you got killed if you make a mistake, the 60s you could get killed, the 70s you hurt yourself most of the time and the 80s you hurt yourself some of the time.

"It's just got safer and safer. Which is a good thing but it's gone too far. It's just progress, progress, progress until it's like 'what have we ended up with here?'. And I think we have ended up with something a bit mushy and not that interesting."




He has a point in some regards, but drivers suddenly become a little overrated when they retire. Don't get me wrong Schumacher was indeed the greatest or one of the greatest of all time. But to say Hamilton is nowhere near is laughable. Also Vettel is better than he says.

I mean he would say that though because he was Schumacher's bitch when they were both in same team.


« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 09:24:52 am by clinical »
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Offline paulrazor

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2019, 09:30:11 am »
he did get a first hand look at schumacher but yeah i think he is harsh on vettel

vettel needs to win a title with ferrari and take down mercedes. he has had chances, i agree with the collisions though, vettel was involved in way too many last year and usually always came away worse off
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Offline sminp

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2019, 09:45:38 am »
He makes some good points but he’s also shockingly dismissive of the talent of the current top drivers and he comes across as a massive twat
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Offline clinical

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2019, 10:20:37 am »
he did get a first hand look at schumacher but yeah i think he is harsh on vettel

Vettel needs to win a title with ferrari and take down mercedes. he has had chances, i agree with the collisions though, vettel was involved in way too many last year and usually always came away worse off

But he hasn't first hand look at the current drivers. To say Hamilton isn't even close to Schumacher is laughable. Schumacher is probably rightly regarded as the best. But I think it's certainly not by a clear margin and there would be lots of evidence to suggest Hamilton/Alonso are just as good.
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Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2019, 10:29:21 am »
I think he makes valid points but he goes over the top in both direction. Hamilton is close to Schumacher and Vettel isn't a one trick pony.

Vettel made mistakes and paid the price although sometimes you get lucky, he didn't. But he's shown he can over take etc




Offline clinical

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2019, 10:37:10 am »
Totally agree with him regards to safety and too easy on tracks.

Bin the halo and bring back more gravel.
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Offline paulrazor

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2019, 10:43:44 am »
Totally agree with him regards to safety and too easy on tracks.

Bin the halo and bring back more gravel.
the same halo that saved Leclerc from being decapitated?
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Offline jackh

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2019, 11:27:39 am »
He makes some good points but he’s also shockingly dismissive of the talent of the current top drivers and he comes across as a massive twat

Always a reasonable presumption.

Offline sminp

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2019, 12:33:21 pm »
Always a reasonable presumption.

It’s just the way it reads, perhaps it’s unfair but he doesn’t come across well in the article. I’m sure I’ve seen it mentioned in here in the past as well that he’s a bit of a bellend.
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Offline Darren G

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2019, 04:30:08 pm »
Totally agree with him regards to safety and too easy on tracks.

Bin the halo and bring back more gravel.

 Yeah, let's go back to gravel so that way we can have cars flipping when they go off like the good old days and have more dead or badly injured drivers.  Fuck the halo too.  It may save lives like the Leclerc incident that Hellrazor mentioned, but the cars don't look as pretty.   Priorities people! Brilliant ideas all round.  :thumbup
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 04:34:11 pm by Darren G »

Offline CraigDS

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2019, 04:35:23 pm »
Bring back serious injuries and death. What a great idea that is.

Should get rid of safety barriers whilst we’re at it. Give the drivers something to worry about.

Offline Darren G

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2019, 04:43:23 pm »
Bring back serious injuries and death. What a great idea that is.

Should get rid of safety barriers whilst we’re at it. Give the drivers something to worry about.

 Whoosh.

Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2019, 04:50:53 pm »
Obviously safety is paramount, for me it's drivers not being able to drive on the edge which is an issue, if your fuel saving, bringing tyres into temp range etc then your really not pushing yourself to the limit. I think f1 has to retain some element of danger and that has got to come from driving the car to 100 percent of its capabilities, taking risks etc.

Its impossible to do that aside from the odd flying lap

How does a driver even get a kick when they can't be on the edge, okay winning feels good but it doesn't get the adrenaline going, you need that adrenaline rush
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 04:53:43 pm by Upinsmoke »

Offline gazzalfc

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2019, 10:53:10 am »
I've bought into the halo after last season. We've seen how effective it is against flying debris. I personally think there is still a question to answer on how easy it is to exit the car after a crash (especially when the car flips). I am annoyed that teams are allowed to add flaps to their halo for an aero advantage. That needs to go right now.

Still think it looks fucking ugly on the car and cant get my head around how it's not a distraction to the drivers. But that is F1 fan in me.  ;D

I think the gravel point is an interesting one and obviously depends on the track. Policing qualifier laps through gaining an advantage is just stupid to me. If a racing line is illegal during quali then it should just be brought into the racing limits of the track the next year. If you dont want to change the track then you make the kerbs higher or add a gravel trap to that area to prevent exceeding track limits or make the punishment for exceeding those limits more harsh.

If you are talking about adding gravel traps to large areas of run off to punish drivers more then you basically kill off any chance of incentivising overtaking chances during a race.

If a driver feels he can have a go up the end of a long straight into a tight corner then he's more likely to go for it if the can run off the corner and re-enter the track and have another go. If you stick a huge patch of gravel on the same corner then why bother taking the risk of possibly damaging the car or even retiring.

Then from the other perspective. If there is run off then when you are wheel to wheel then you can both attack and defend more as there is less risk. If there is a gravel trap you run the risk of either getting tapped into the gravel or tapping another driver in there.


Offline paulrazor

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2019, 10:59:13 am »
you make good points gazza and regards the halo yes they shouldnt* be allowed modify to gain advantage with flaps on it etc

i dont think it distracts drivers given if it did they would have done away with it by now

i remember there was a concept mentioned of some sort of shield being used instead, it would have made the cars look like the batmobile and i think it would have looked better but with the sun shining on them or rain getting on them they probably wouldnt have worked.


(edit: shouldnt be allowed to modify)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 11:45:56 am by Hellrazor »
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #59 on: January 25, 2019, 11:02:28 am »
Personally I’d rather the halo just be a standard part for the car, no mods. They have enough they can do on the car to improve it over others without having to mess with a safety feature.

Offline paulrazor

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2019, 11:46:16 am »
Personally I’d rather the halo just be a standard part for the car, no mods. They have enough they can do on the car to improve it over others without having to mess with a safety feature.
yep, i made a typo above but they shouldnt be allowed
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Offline jackh

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2019, 12:32:50 pm »
I've bought into the halo after last season. We've seen how effective it is against flying debris. I personally think there is still a question to answer on how easy it is to exit the car after a crash (especially when the car flips). I am annoyed that teams are allowed to add flaps to their halo for an aero advantage. That needs to go right now.

There was a clear sense of fear in Nico Hulkenberg when his car flipped in Adu Dhabi - you could tell he absolutely wasn't comfortable with the situation.

I'm all for the halo really, despite originally preferring the screen that Red Bull and Ferarri trialled.  I get the impression that vast majority have gotten over any aesthetic issues they had with it pretty quickly too.  It barely occurs to me as 'a thing' at all when I see the cars.  Agree with the point about adding aero bits to it - it absolultely should be a standardised part.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 12:35:17 pm by jackh »

Offline Linudden

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2019, 12:48:51 pm »
I'd rate Hamilton as #9 and Vettel as #11 in historical terms. Due to the sport being much more dangerous, true greats like Jim Clark and Alberto Ascari were lost and those were higher talents than both and virtually unbeatable for their team mates. Then of course Niki Lauda would've won a lot more than the three he did but for his life changing at the Nordschleife. The 1976 one would've been a given and his relationship with Enzo most likely wouldn't have deteriorated, which would've meant five in a row between 1975 and 1979.

1. Schumacher (three years, 1995, 1997 and 1998. How on earth he did seasons like that no-one will ever know.  None of those cars was driveable for anyone else who tried them, yet he either won it or took it to the finale. Then in 2003, while Williams had the better car by the time of Monza, he routed Montoya out of the title race through sheer will in two races. Taking three wins in a row to bounce back to beat Häkkinen in 2000 to me was the finest comeback in the sport's history. Wasn't perfect and his return was rather inconsequental in his 40's, but in his prime he was the unstoppable force that conquered all immovable objects.)

2. Fangio (toss-up between him and Schumacher. Fangio made it all look so easy, the only driver who could touch him was Ascari. Came back from a very serious accident in 1952 to win four in a row, just avoiding the Le Mans disaster at the last second. Very hard to place him against Schumacher, but to my knowledge none of his title wins was done in an inferior car. Ultimately that gives Schumacher the slightest of edges).

3. Prost (had five (!) WDC team mates, yet put together a title-esque run against all of them, in 1986 especially in an inferior car. Completely destroyed Rosberg and Mansell as team mates and beat Senna for points both seasons through very good race pace. Could've won a lot more than four but for being very unlucky. 1982, 1983, 1984, 1988 and 1990 would've all seen him as a deserved champion on the balance of his performances).

4. Senna (the best qualifier of all time and only had the best car for four seasons of his career, in which he delivered the goods in three of them. Lacked racing patience and we don't know how he'd fared against Schumacher - which would've been his toughest test yet).

5. Clark (the best British driver of all time in my book, someone who took on everything with such ease, such as winning the Indianapolis 500. Lost a title in 1964 when the car broke down, otherwise would've been the first and so far only Brit to win three in a row. Hardly ever made mistakes and his death was through a puncture that sent him out in the woods. Had that not happened, Lotus did do well in the sport between 1968 and 1973, but with Clark, they'd dominated.)

6. Ascari (the only driver who could take on and beat Fangio and also the sport's first true dominant with his 1952 and 1953 titles. His sportscar testing death ensured that the epic Ascari-Fangio duels that could've happened in the years following never happened even after he'd returned to Enzo's camp after their falling out, but Ascari was something else, also leaving a team mate like Farina in the dust. Well-worthy of comparisons to Tazio Nuvolari.)

7. Lauda (the most underrated driver in the colour TV era. Unstoppable prior to his accident, but still won three, which could've been a lot more. Sensationally beat Prost for points scored over a whole season in his previously so-and-so second career, something even Senna as a team-mate (dropped scores in 1988) didn't  manage to do.)

8. Alonso (ended several drivers' careers when he was their team mates, took a useless box of crap to Interlagos in 2012, almost beat a 0.5 second/lap faster Red Bull in 2010 and regularly scored points with the McLaren-Honda, when it didn't break. Tied Hamilton for points in 2007 and made a talented driver like Räikkönen look like a borderline pay driver in 2014).

9. Hamilton (first half of his career badly lets him down, beaten by Button in 2011 and lost to Alonso four years in a row between 2010 and 2013 when the Ferrari was shit. Winning "Nigel Mansell 1992 titles" with a dominant engine combined with a very good car after that doesn't change it. Oh, and then lost the title to a decent but not great driver like Rosberg in the same car. Hamilton's often mediocre 2017 performances could've seen him beaten by Nico again. Good driver, but nowhere near where Sky Sports and the British press rate him.)

10. Stewart (Mr. Reliable, although lacking  the same raw speed as some of the guys ahead of him. Similar to Vettel, only won the title in one familiar environment and I doubt he'd won more than one had Jim Clark lived).

11. Vettel (ludicrously good qualifier with high-downforce cars, but too error-prone. Almost threw away two championships with Red Bull. Still gets up here for one-lap speed and four titles alone. Ricciardo loss and the 2018 collapse puts huge question marks though. However, did great seasons in '11, '13, '15 and '17.)

12. Häkkinen (similarly to Vettel, rather prone to mistakes, but lightning fast over a single lap and also the driver who elevated Schumacher with their occasional magical duels like their two Suzuka classics. Unfortunately he couldn't bring himself to go on anymore after 33, but between 1998 and 2000 he was fearsomely quick, but of course slips like Imola and Monza, spinning off from the lead in the dry, leaves him out of a top 10).

13. Brabham (very hard to judge, but obviously not a match for Jim Clark, but still ended up with more titles than him. Used the vacuum after Fangio's departure perfectly and took two well-measured titles in '59 and '60, prior to making his own team a dominant force capable of beating Chapman's Lotus and of course winning it again in '66).

14. G Hill (won Monaco five times, the triple crown and took Jackie Stewart on well as team mates. Wasn't as fast as Jim Clark, but still got his two world titles. Ultimately carried on too long, but definitely deserves a top 15 and I'd rate him higher than Damon.)

15. Piquet (often forgotten, but had a lot of steel to turn his five title challenges into three titles, even though he wasn't the driver with the greatest flair, he still got the job done, even enjoying a strong swansong at Benetton. The very tough competition in the 80's and him rising to it, should give him a lot of credit though).

16. Fittipaldi (came in right at the same time as Rindt's tragic death and carried the banner for Lotus in great fashion, being a fabulous force between 1972 and 1975. While sometimes, struggling for raw speed against Peterson, he still outscored him and then took a perfectly judged 1974 title to start off the McLaren era. Then in a similarly-coloured car he enjoyed tremendous success in IndyCar later, even after his prime.)

Honourable mentions to Moss, Andretti, Mansell, Rindt, Räikkönen, Gilles Villeneuve, Nico Rosberg, Button and talent-wise, Max Verstappen is a shoe-in for a top 16 later on.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 01:19:33 pm by Linudden »
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Offline paulrazor

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2019, 12:56:10 pm »
enjoyed that and thanks for taking the time to do it

good to see piquet in there, for a three time champion he seems to nearly slip through the cracks
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Offline Linudden

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2019, 01:05:50 pm »
enjoyed that and thanks for taking the time to do it

good to see piquet in there, for a three time champion he seems to nearly slip through the cracks

Yeah, I think it's important to recognize the legacies of Ascari, Clark and Lauda, I've always held them extremely highly for what they did in their primes. Sadly, all three of them either died or had life-changing accidents they'd walked from today. It's easy to forget that in today's day and age, that those guys took MotoGP-level risks merely by sitting in the car.
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Offline Qston

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2019, 01:23:25 pm »
Thanks Linudden. Enjoyed reading through that. Agree with Hellrazor and your about Piquet. Overlooked in loads of discussions on TV etc about different eras.
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Offline Darren G

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2019, 01:29:46 pm »
Bit short on time, so may write more later, but I disagree with a lot of that and some of it is also factually incorrect.  For example, Senna also beat Prost for points over a season, not just Lauda. 

I think that you're also being particularly harsh on Hamilton and have double standards in dismissing Lewis' "Nigel Mansell 1992 titles" whilst at the same time having Fangio at number two, when he literally had 'best car on the grid' clauses written into his contract and jumped teams the moment that another team produced a better car (see Maserati to Mercedes).
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 01:32:04 pm by Darren G »

Offline Linudden

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #67 on: January 25, 2019, 01:59:09 pm »
Bit short on time, so may write more later, but I disagree with a lot of that and some of it is also factually incorrect.  For example, Senna also beat Prost for points over a season, not just Lauda. 

I think that you're also being particularly harsh on Hamilton and have double standards in dismissing Lewis' "Nigel Mansell 1992 titles" whilst at the same time having Fangio at number two, when he literally had 'best car on the grid' clauses written into his contract and jumped teams the moment that another team produced a better car (see Maserati to Mercedes).

* dropped points. Over 16 rounds, Prost scored more, but due to the crazy regulations of 11 scores back then, Senna won. It still doesn't change the fact the Prost scored more points than Senna both seasons. Ultimately, that rule was scrapped because it was ridiculous.

Hamilton's had off-seasons though, like 2011 and 2012. Fangio never had one. Hamilton's also rather inconsistent. You have Singapore 2018 on one hand, but also Monaco 2017. Among the top 10 best drivers of all-time the standards are bound to be high. Oh, and I put him above Vettel. He also has top six potential, it depends on whether he'd react better to having an inferior car compared to last time it happened. Then also four words that end his aspirations for #1 right there: Nico Rosberg WDC 2016. This in Hamilton's prime. Not at 41. At 31. Like I said, he's a very good driver, but he's not a god. He and Alonso are neck and neck for the best driver born in the 80's.

Anyway, this supreme bottle job didn't exactly help my rating either. He Spurs'd it:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/KglbcTs0vWk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/KglbcTs0vWk</a>

Anyway, the names "Schumacher" and "Alonso" above Hamilton are obviously bound to upset some British fans along with Mansell not in the top 15, I get that  ;D
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 02:06:42 pm by Linudden »
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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #68 on: January 25, 2019, 02:11:06 pm »
we will never agree on the same drivers in the same order so just gonna respect opinions here

i was also gonna explain the 88 season how senna won the title even though prost had more points

was a bit of a silly rule that
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Offline Darren G

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2019, 02:27:02 am »
* dropped points. Over 16 rounds, Prost scored more, but due to the crazy regulations of 11 scores back then, Senna won. It still doesn't change the fact the Prost scored more points than Senna both seasons. Ultimately, that rule was scrapped because it was ridiculous.

Hamilton's had off-seasons though, like 2011 and 2012. Fangio never had one. Hamilton's also rather inconsistent. You have Singapore 2018 on one hand, but also Monaco 2017. Among the top 10 best drivers of all-time the standards are bound to be high. Oh, and I put him above Vettel. He also has top six potential, it depends on whether he'd react better to having an inferior car compared to last time it happened. Then also four words that end his aspirations for #1 right there: Nico Rosberg WDC 2016. This in Hamilton's prime. Not at 41. At 31. Like I said, he's a very good driver, but he's not a god. He and Alonso are neck and neck for the best driver born in the 80's.

Anyway, this supreme bottle job didn't exactly help my rating either. He Spurs'd it:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/KglbcTs0vWk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/KglbcTs0vWk</a>

Anyway, the names "Schumacher" and "Alonso" above Hamilton are obviously bound to upset some British fans along with Mansell not in the top 15, I get that  ;D

 In 1990, counting all races, Senna beat Prost by 84 points to 80.  [EDIT] just noticed that you said "as a teammate", so my mistake, you are correct there, sorry.

 I agree that Hamilton was far from spectacular in 2011 and 2012 and was making the same sort of mistakes that Seb has made in the past two seasons.  Fangio may never have had an off-season, but he also always had the best car in every season but one that he raced in, so I think that it's an unfair comparison to an extent. 

In terms of Hamilton being beaten by Rosberg in 2016, I don't think that Lewis drove particularly well that year, with poor starts in particular costing him.  That being said, Rosberg did have all the luck that year.  Fangio was beaten by his teammate in much the same fashion. 

China in 2007 was a rookie mistake, with Hamilton's tyres being completely screwed at that point.  A more experienced driver would have come in sooner - which is why I've always said that Mclaren should have backed Alonso that year - but I don't think that Lewis 'spurs'd it' and see no need for that kind of language.  ;)

 For the record, I don't think that Hamilton is 'a God' either and wouldn't put him ahead of the likes of Schumi, Senna or Prost.   I do think that he's higher than 9th though and that some of your reasoning for having him there is flawed.  Some of the stuff on Schumi on the other had - and I do agree with him at number one - appears to show bias in the other direction.  The 1997 and '98 Ferrari's, though not the quickest, were far from 'undriveable'.  In '98 in particular, even Eddie Irvine - who let's be honest was shite - was getting podiums on a regular basis.   

Like Hellrazor says though, opinions and all that.  Finally, it's probably worth mentioning that as a 'British fan' the drivers that I've supported over my time watching f1 have been Senna, Schumacher and Vettel, so nationalism has nothing to do with my views. 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 02:47:12 am by Darren G »

Offline Linudden

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #70 on: January 26, 2019, 02:42:43 am »
In 1990, counting all races, Senna beat Prost by 84 points to 80. 

 I agree that Hamilton was far from spectacular in 2011 and 2012 and was making the same sort of mistakes that Seb has made in the past two seasons.  Fangio may never have had an off-season, but he also always had the best car in every season but one that he raced in, so I think that it's an unfair comparison to an extent. 

In terms of Hamilton being beaten by Rosberg in 2016, I don't think that Lewis drove particularly well that year, with poor starts in particular costing him.  That being said, Rosberg did have all the luck that year.  Fangio was beaten by his teammate in much the same fashion. 

China in 2007 was a rookie mistake, with Hamilton's tyres being completely screwed at that point.  A more experienced driver would have come in sooner - which is why I've always said that Mclaren should have backed Alonso that year - but I don't think that Lewis 'spurs'd it' and see no need for that kind of language.  ;)

 I don't think that Hamilton is  'a God' either for the record and wouldn't put him ahead of the likes of Schumi, Senna or Prost, but I think that he's higher than 9th and that some of your reasoning for having him there is flawed.  Like Hellrazor says though, opinions and all that...

1. In 1990 they were not team mates and it's hard to say how competitive the Ferrari that year was. One of the hardest year to properly gague at all, I lean towards the McLaren being faster over one lap and the Ferrari over a race distance on some of the tracks, but overall I would say the McLaren was always the better bet to win the title.

2. He screwed up badly, especially 2011, where he had the pace to match Button, but couldn't help but fuck it up and somehow finished behind Alonso in one of the worst Ferrari's in my lifetime. Both in 2010 and 2012 he had as good of a chance at an underdog title win as Alonso did, the first year he was not a factor come Abu Dhabi even though he had a mathematical chance coming in there, didn't he (?), whereas in 2012 he was underwhelming. The 2013 Mercedes was not really a title contender, but he should've won more than once and been neck to neck with Alonso for runner-up.

3. He did some really poor starts in 2016, especially Monza, and Rosberg primarily got some luck with the stewards that year (nominal penalty in Austria + Hungary purple sector under yellows wtf?) That being said, it never looks good when a team mate wins the title in the same car as yourself, especially if he's not a Senna. In early 2017, he also struggled a lot with Bottas, but evidently Bottas has now suffered a mental collapse and is likely gone by the end of 2019. Fangio lost in the sports' first year when he may have been 39, but was still rather inexperienced.

4. Of course his tyres were completely screwed, but merely a 5th would've put Räikkönen out of it and he could've cruised in at 5 mph and still come out behind Massa in 4th. His watching the buttons moment crashing into Kimi in Canada the year after was also remarkably silly and not GOAT material. Both he and Vettel have also royally screwed up Interlagos title lead defenses and only just got bailed out one time each in what could've been brutal bottle jobs. Alonso himself didn't screw Abu Dhabi up, it was the dumb strategy call that did. He had the pace to finish 3rd in that race and would've done.

5. I see potential he might make it to fifth by the end of his career. For that to happen, he needs to dig out a title in a car that is actually slower than his competition, not like last summer where all four Mercedes and Ferrari drivers regularly qualified within 0.1 seconds and then Mercedes pulled out three tenths on race day because of energy recovery modes and all that. That doesn't count as "winning in an inferior car", even though Autosport ran insane campaign journalism last summer indicating it was. Ferrari didn't have one easy win last season, there was always a Mercedes running around like a furious bee each time. Vettel was never able to get away more than 3-4 seconds. Not even in Canada. It was his best title run yet, but from the first half of his career he still has a lot of ground to cover. Back at the end of 2013, I'd put him between 15-20 and Vettel in #7. He's done well to reverse that, but that Rosberg loss really ended his aspirations to hit "big four level".


« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 02:49:25 am by Linudden »
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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #71 on: January 26, 2019, 03:08:50 am »
We could go around forever I guess.  I edited the Senna/points comment prior to your posting. Also added some remarks on Schumi.  (see above). 

"it never looks good when a team mate wins the title in the same car as yourself."

 And yet you have Fangio at number two.  You mention that he was inexperienced so give him a pass, whilst at the same time condemn Lewis for the China mistake...in his first year in the sport.  Complete double standards.  Where Lewis would have come out is entirely irrelevant by the way as the tyres simply wouldn't grip on the way in, where he was going slowly incidentally.


 "He screwed up badly, especially 2011, where he had the pace."

 The pace for what?  No one was ever going to get close to Seb that year.


 "Both in 2010 and 2012 he had as good of a chance at an underdog title win as Alonso did."

 Well, we're descending into farce at this point.  The 2012 Mclaren a potential title-winning car?  Not. A. Chance.

I see potential he might make it to fifth by the end of his career. For that to happen, he needs to dig out a title in a car that is actually slower than his competition

 Again, when did Fangio ever do this given that you seem to feel that it's a needed qualification?

 Agree to disagree I guess.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 03:12:44 am by Darren G »

Offline Linudden

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #72 on: January 26, 2019, 03:39:21 am »
Irvine said after his career he was lost for words as for what Schumacher did with those cars (F1 Racing, 2011 I think). Granted, he took some podiums in 1998, but that was due to the collapse of Williams and Benetton. He was half a second per lap slower all year long. Anyway, Barrichello would've won 1999, I'm sure of that. He was a better driver in his prime than both Irvine and Massa. Then of course, 1998 saw this famous performance from Schumi:

Spoiler

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/wjNWy1VS1b4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/wjNWy1VS1b4</a>

[close]

As for McLaren in 2012, it wasn't any worse than the Ferrari was, just look at Massa's horror story of a season back then. Red Bull had the sole title-winning car that year, but Vettel and the team almost bottled it. In 2011, what I meant to say was that Hamilton should've finished second that season.

Anyway, comparing 1950's rookies to 2000's rookies is a bit of apples to oranges. Experience meant a whole lot more back then, considering how difficult and dangerous the cars were. Also, were you aware that Fangio's gearbox gave up on his likely 1950 title at Monza, when he'd beaten Farina for pole by 1.4 seconds the day before? Then he took over Taruffi's car and the engine blew! Maximum misforune and in reality  had his car held together, he'd surely won it, he only needed to finish third in his original car to win, something he definitely would've done. Second in Taruffi's car would've also won him the title on countback. He had amazing pace that weekend. Therefore, it's wrong to "hang "Fangio for the 1950 loss. It was only six rounds back then, so any mechanical failure could mean curtains in a title battle, unlike the modern day 20-race seasons.

That being said, Hamilton suffered an engine failure in Malaysia that you could say cost him the title, but then again, Nico would've approached the weekends much more aggressively without the points bank he had. It's much easier to say "engine failure in the final race = title loss" compared to Malaysia = title loss ;)

Young drivers coming into the sport in the mid-2000's had a lot of testing under their belt and knew exactly what to expect. Hammy did a great job in his rookie season, aside from the complete meltdown in the final two races.

That being said, being #9 in history with the possibility to rise to #5 or #6 is not bad at all. Let's agree to disagree, anyway  :P
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 03:47:57 am by Linudden »
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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2019, 03:49:59 am »
 :thumbup Yeah, all good man.  We could go on making counterpoints to each other until the cows come home.  I respect your opinions even it they differ to mine and it's all somewhat subjective interpretation at the end of the day regardless.  Let's just hope for a great season ahead.

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #74 on: January 26, 2019, 08:51:41 am »
Good to see some love for Prost, Clark and Acsacri there...  and on Jackie Stewart, his autobiography is an absolutely cracking read.

But Alonso isn’t top 10, he isn’t even top 20.  I reckon he will be forgotten reasonably quickly as the decades pass.  Just my opinion of course...not that he isn’t a wonderful driver..

Mansell is someone that is ignored too easily though.  Went from F1 to Indy and won there too.  And he made Ferrari turn from a joke to a winning team ... a  remarkable driver on his day.
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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #75 on: January 26, 2019, 09:12:42 am »
Good reading that Darren & Linudden. You both have great historical knowledge and It's good seeing it go back and forth  :D

Good to see some love for Prost, Clark and Acsacri there...  and on Jackie Stewart, his autobiography is an absolutely cracking read.

But Alonso isn’t top 10, he isn’t even top 20.  I reckon he will be forgotten reasonably quickly as the decades pass.  Just my opinion of course...not that he isn’t a wonderful driver..

Mansell is someone that is ignored too easily though.  Went from F1 to Indy and won there too.  And he made Ferrari turn from a joke to a winning team ... a  remarkable driver on his day.

Alonso is so unlucky though for me. He's retired every 1 in 6 races and his timing of constructor moves outside of Renault just really seems so unlucky you couldn't of wrote it. He was never bettered by any team mate except maybe at minardi. He hasn't had the best car on the grid for over a decade, give him what Hamilton has had the last few years or Seb at Red Bull and Vettel and Lewis would both have less and Alonso would be closer to Schumacher and probably equalled fangio.

Yes it is all if's and maybe's but his talent is up there with Hamilton and i'd rate him higher than Seb given his performances over the last two seasons.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 09:23:24 am by Upinsmoke »

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #76 on: January 26, 2019, 11:05:57 am »
Good reading that Darren & Linudden. You both have great historical knowledge and It's good seeing it go back and forth  :D

Alonso is so unlucky though for me. He's retired every 1 in 6 races and his timing of constructor moves outside of Renault just really seems so unlucky you couldn't of wrote it. He was never bettered by any team mate except maybe at minardi. He hasn't had the best car on the grid for over a decade, give him what Hamilton has had the last few years or Seb at Red Bull and Vettel and Lewis would both have less and Alonso would be closer to Schumacher and probably equalled fangio.

Yes it is all if's and maybe's but his talent is up there with Hamilton and i'd rate him higher than Seb given his performances over the last two seasons.

Alonso would've been a four-time WDC under normal circumstances as in:

No idiot on the Ferrari pitwall in 2010 who knew a thing or two about the Bridgestone tyre dropoff.
Normal service resumed for hitting a car in the side at the start = retirement (Senna on Vettel at Interlagos).

Then add that he was one point off in 2007 and 21-0:ed Vandoorne, let alone smashing Massa and Räikkönen. For me, he's definitely top 10.
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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #77 on: January 26, 2019, 11:36:14 am »
Alonso would've been a four-time WDC under normal circumstances as in:

No idiot on the Ferrari pitwall in 2010 who knew a thing or two about the Bridgestone tyre dropoff.
Normal service resumed for hitting a car in the side at the start = retirement (Senna on Vettel at Interlagos).

Then add that he was one point off in 2007 and 21-0:ed Vandoorne, let alone smashing Massa and Räikkönen. For me, he's definitely top 10.

"After the race it is always very easy to see the best strategy. As I said now you need to cover from someone and if we didn't stop I think Webber probably would have overtaken us, if we stopped we cover from Webber but let Petrov and Rosberg in front so it was a very difficult call I think. It was obviously a tough difficult race. I lost a position at the start and then when the first safety car came out Petrov and Rosberg came in so... We saw some problems with the soft tyres, Webber pitted and then we tried to cover from him. When you cover someone probably you give something away to the others. So it was then a choice between covering Vettel or Petrov and Rosberg, so we covered Webber and then it was difficult to overtake Petrov. The Renault is very quick on the top speed so it was a frustrating race behind him. But this is a sport, this is motor racing. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose." - FERNANDO ALONSO.

Offline Graeme

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2019, 10:28:29 am »
Updated car launch schedule...

February 11 - Toro Rosso - Online
February 12 - Renault - Enstone, UK
February 13 - Racing Point - Toronto, Canada
February 14 - McLaren - McLaren Technology Centre
February 15 - Ferrari - Maranello, Italy
February 18 - Sauber - Barcelona, Spain

So that means just 2 weeks until we see the first car :D

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Re: The 2019 Formula One Thread
« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2019, 12:02:17 pm »
oh fuck it

ill work on a 92 review

youll all like the andrea moda work
yer ma should have called you Paolo Zico Gerry Socrates HELLRAZOR