Topic: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell

[So… Howard Philips]

He's the nominated LFC scapegoat for the 2016/17 season, didn't you get the memo...... If he's injured it will undoubtedly move to Mignolet......

I'd just add the way people (for people read Twitter LFC 'supporters') were losing their shit yesterday, less than one half of football into the season, was embarrassing. Moaners, mitherers and bottlers.

But it's not just yesterday. He has a history of poor judgement and rash tackles. Two years worth of history.

I keep on hoping he'll turn the proverbial corner but hasn't happened.

[del potro]

Because football doesn't work like that, the Glen Johnson years say 'hi', this sodding argument has been debunked so many times. Fullbacks look good attacking because they have the space and the overlap to make use of - it's a completely different skill set from being a tricky winger with the close control to make their own space when already pushed up onto the opposition fullback.

Can we please retire this line of thinking?

That all depends on the player, you can't flat out say anyone who played at fullback/wingback cannot be transformed into a winger.

[Jookie]

Klopp's had two windows to address it, this isnt at Rodgers' door. It needs sorting in the next few weeks.

Based on our transfer strategy so far, or at least what is visible to the ordinary fan, it doesn't seem that Klopp wants to replace Moreno. He wanted to add some competition with Chilwell. It's hard to envision Chilwell being brought in to 100% start ahead of Moreno.

I don't think anyone is completely happy with Moreno. Though there are people (me included) that can see why Klopp might value someone with Moreno's attributes in the current system. I personally think someone with Moreno's attributes are essential if you want to accommodate and get the best out of Coutinho on the LHS of attack. If you want Coutinho to have licence to drift inside and exploit any space centrally then a left back who can join the attack and provide width is essential. I'd rather live with Moreno's mistakes than play a defensive full back every game.

If there was a left back who could provide Moreno's attributes and had good positional play and a brain, I'm sure no-one here would shed a tear if Moreno was ditched for them. It's difficult to think Klopp wouldn't do the same. I'd guess there are very few players who can offer that skill set though. Ones that will join us and we can afford? Maybe even less.

Over the course of the season maybe I'll join that group of people whose heads are burnt out by Moreno. The ones who just want to see him gone. The ones who want a defensively solid full back who would normally excel in a standard 442. I don't blame people for thinking this way when they see Moreno doing something reckless. I just wish the same people would at least give some thought to how Moreno helps our team shape when attacking and why Klopp still values him in that position.

[FrancisB]

In my opinion he needs to be replaced.

He can't defend and he is used as a defender. I don't think he is that good in going forward either to be able to stand a chance as a winger.

[The 1989 Brit Awards]

Monreal is one of the best LB's in the League

He is?

I personally think he can still have a chance with coaching and maybe getting a kick in his backside with being rotated a bit to finally wake up defensively; I really like the threat he poses going forward ever since he arrived.

What's weird about your general opinions is that you seem to focus on media attacking him, slightly ignoring that you could say pretty much 75% of our fanbase is done with him too. Even a higher percentage would lay the blame for the first goal and the penalty yesterday on him yet you're firmly on the other extreme saying he did nothing wrong (here and on the post match thread, I think), and hey, to be honest you're just as wrong as them.

If you really want to protect Moreno that much, you're going to have to concede a bit on his abilities, else everyone will think you're just crazy and not take you seriously.

[Jim Pooley]

Alberto is one of the least good players in our matchday squads.  But he's feckin leagues ahead of a lot of the dross we've had to put up with over the past decade.  Even just at left back - Dossena?  PFK?  Djimi "has he even seen a football before" Traore?

Seriously, if there was an every-touch video of Djimi in Istanbul, people would be demanding we give Moreno a 10-year contract.  He's inconsistent, he's not as good as we'd like.  But he's a long way from being as bad as some make out.  Upgrade him when we can?  Definitely.  Do it before we'd sorted out the lack of pace and goal threat through the squad?  Or the issue of cover at centre back?  Of course not.

He'll almost certainly be gone by this time next year, and if not it will be because he's been coached out of the worst errors.  We may yet find a better option by the end of this month.  Either way, he'll do for now.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

That all depends on the player, you can't flat out say anyone who played at fullback/wingback cannot be transformed into a winger.

No, it does happen. But I can say it's a crap argument because people seem to make this automatic assumption that a good attacking FB should always be a winger instead.

Should Barca have stuck Steve Finnan behind Dani Alves for the past ten years, would they have won more trophies that way?

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Alberto is one of the least good players in our matchday squads.  But he's feckin leagues ahead of a lot of the dross we've had to put up with over the past decade.  Even just at left back - Dossena?  PFK?  Djimi "has he even seen a football before" Traore?

Seriously, if there was an every-touch video of Djimi in Istanbul, people would be demanding we give Moreno a 10-year contract.  He's inconsistent, he's not as good as we'd like.  But he's a long way from being as bad as some make out.  Upgrade him when we can?  Definitely.  Do it before we'd sorted out the lack of pace and goal threat through the squad?  Or the issue of cover at centre back?  Of course not.

He'll almost certainly be gone by this time next year, and if not it will be because he's been coached out of the worst errors.  We may yet find a better option by the end of this month.  Either way, he'll do for now.

Fair post, I think.

[SMASHerano]

Continually picked him when he had other options last season.

He's a world class manager for a reason, a similar reason, I'd venture, as to why you are not. I don't think it's down to lack of preparedness.

And he continually disappointed... or did you miss his mistakes?

Let's keep the personal digs aside and talk football please, I can go on about how you defending Moreno shows how clueless you are but I'd rather not.

[SMASHerano]

Every game is going to have that happen. Monreal is one of the best LB's in the League and he got skinned several times yesterday. Jesus Christ.

At one point, late on, when it was 4-3, Walcott was attacking down their right and came up against Moreno, who calmly tackled him and carried it forward for us. It could have gotten very nervy, but he was cool enough to prevent another Arsenal ball into the box.

That's actually not true. Have a look at Clyne's defending and you will see the vast difference.

[LFCEmpire]

What do you guys think of when Carra commented on live tv ''having a left-back like that''. You can bet Moreno is starting to feel immense pressure.

[heylookitsjacob]

Does anyone think it's Klopp's plan to have Milner start as LB and Moreno as back-up? Moreno's deficiencies seem less detrimental if the idea is to send Moreno on late in games to chase a goal or play against lower opposition in cups.

[El Lobo]

Based on our transfer strategy so far, or at least what is visible to the ordinary fan, it doesn't seem that Klopp wants to replace Moreno. He wanted to add some competition with Chilwell. It's hard to envision Chilwell being brought in to 100% start ahead of Moreno.

Or he does, and he recognises that its an area we can improve, but just like pretty much every other sensible manager in the world who doesnt work for an oil club, he also recognises a) he probably can't make all the signings he wants to improve the team in one window and more importantly b) its not a good thing to make mass changes to the team every window.

Once again, Rafa took a number of windows to build his team. I wish for heavens sake people would just let him get on with it.

[ArchieC]

Any player playing for Liverpool will always have my support. Moreno needs to tidy up from being so erratic. Hopefully as he matures and with the right mentors at the club it will set him straight and be more smart on the pitch.  Nevertheless, next week is a new game and if he's selected he has the chance to prove people wrong

[FrancisB]

So, in order to support Moreno's quality and usefulness, people are using as examples, players that played about a decade ago, like Dossena and Traore. 

[RedEire]

Very erratic and tries to play at 100mph the whole time! Even when he gets a chance on goal he goes to absolutely pile drive it and it more times than not goes over or wide! If he calmed down a little and kept it simple instead of trying to bust a gut to keep getting up the pitch he could be a little more useful than what he is at the mo!

[Chakan]

He's a liability no doubt. Will he get better? I guess time will tell, seen nothing to suggest he's going to change the way he plays.

[Giono]

Our manager values him and thinks he will come good in his tactics. That is good enough for me.

Klopp plays with asymmetrical full backs with one (Moreno) tending to be higher than the other to make pressing traps (off the ball) or he will use his explosiveness to get forward in the transitions once the ball is won back from an already higher starting point. Moreno has the pace and stamina to recover. Hector would probably be a bad fit to do this. Therefore it would be a transfer that doesn´t suit that tactical plan he is trying to implement. Rodriguez also isn´t explosive. Someone like Bertrand would work though. The important thing to note is - whoever we play there will always appear as our weak link at full back. We encourage sides to attack that flank and then use it to win the ball back. The problems we are having at the moment is that playing this way isn´t simple to learn or easy to implement. Also, if we give the ball away in the transition phase, it makes us very vulnerable. In these instances people think Moreno is running about like a headless chicken always out of position - Klopp looks at it as the team letting him down by giving the ball away at the wrong time when Moreno has already pushed forward as he was instructed to do so. At the moment Moreno isn´t being helped by us being not spatially compact enough and by us shooting ourselves in the foot sometimes in transitions. That doesn´t mean he is blameless. Far from it. Just that perhaps Klopp believes anybody in that situation would struggle and wants Moreno to have a chance in the role when these other tactical problems are solved giving him a fair crack at the role. If you genuinely believe Moreno is a bad footballer, you are an idiot. There is no getting away from that. One of the elite managers in the game backs him. Perhaps we should all do so too until that situation changes?EDIT:- None of this is aimed at you. I am actually agreeing with your point that he probably isn´t looking for a defensive fullback and why Milner is actually a good fit for the role.

In Klopp I trust.

[Isaacsways]

Opposition managers target him as he's a weak link, there's a reason why so many people don't rate him, it isn't personal, we just want to the best players possible at the club. we'd all love him to succeed as he does have his good parts to his game, his speed, his attitude, he can sometimes add to the attack, but he's a defender and currently he's doesn't do it very well, if Klopp can change that then great but it'll have to be soon or we must look to but someone better, either in this window or January.

[Levitz]

And he continually disappointed... or did you miss his mistakes?

Let's keep the personal digs aside and talk football please, I can go on about how you defending Moreno shows how clueless you are but I'd rather not.

Mate, if you're taking that as a personal dig you've a very thin skin. I'm saying Klopp knows more infinitely more about football than you or I, or the majority of supporters. Suggesting he was ill prepared and didn't or doesn't know about Moreno's weaknesses is insulting to his professionalism.

He can be a frustrating player and he does make mistakes but so do all players. Some of his have been more noticeable than others but there was an article compating him to other LBs  in the league recently and he came off very favourably (both offensively and defensively).

All this, 'buy someone else', who? Moreno was supposed to solve these problems, he was feted at Sevilla, won the Europa with them and now here we are. There is no guarantee that whoever comes in is better, fits in the team, the league better, settles etc etc. Replacing him isn't a guaranteed panacea.

Klopp's mantra is training will improve you. He sees something in Moreno, and all the noises are he's not signing a new first choice LB, I'm trusting his judgement over yours. His other mantra is that it's everyone's responsibility to defend and help each other. It's very rarely one player at fault which is why scapegoating individuals really pisses me off.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

The fact that he's our starting left back after last season should be support enough

[Miltonred]

The sick and poor need our support.
Highly paid footballers not so much. Give your support if you want to but don't demand all others do.

Does he deserve a certain level of respect, I believe so.  I don't think he is a bad person, he's just not a very good left back.

[Raaphael]

He plays for the team we support. Should be obvious that we support him. Slagging him off every game won`t do any good. It won`t help the team.

[SC04OCT]

That's actually not true. Have a look at Clyne's defending and you will see the vast difference.

Are you saying Clyne can go a whole game without conceding one cross?

[Chakan]

He plays for the team we support. Should be obvious that we support him. Slagging him off every game won`t do any good. It won`t help the team.

There comes a point though whenever he steps onto the pitch we might lose points because of him. He keeps making the same mistakes over and over again. Rash challenges , getting caught way out of position. He's not shown that he's actually learning what's wrong. I can't imagine Klopp wants a leftback caught out of position repeatedly.

[Skidder.]

Week-in, week-out, if you put on MOTD or Sky Sports after one of our games, they analyse our defensive shortcomings and sort of half-do opposition scouting for them. Moreno, has almost, always been under question and teams will just continually try to exploit the left when he is playing - whether the goal was his fault or not, teams will just pile the pressure onto him because they know he is not at the level needed to handle the defensive pressure.

The question is, will that come? Do you stick or twist?

The very same could be said for Migs in goal - which is why we've gone out and gotten him backup and competition (it seems like we may be sticking with him for the time being).

Said it before and I'll say it again - if we hadn't paid at the fee as we did for Moreno, he'd have been loaned out to a Championship club to get experience, like so many other Spanish players that we've had. And that isn't anything against Spanish players, but it is as if Moreno has 3-5-2 mentality.  Every time I see him play in a four-man defense, I always get the feeling that he feels out of position - I always get the feeling that he is looking for that extra support from the defence.

In all honesty, I could only see a future for Moreno if he was used further up the pitch because all I can see with Moreno is a winger-at-heart, who has, at some point in his career, been utilised as a defender. That all seems a bit Football Managery, but Moreno is a good player, he's fast, tennacous and is quite skillful - he can score and runs like a demon.

This is a pretty crude and far from fact association - but Gareth Bale - Gareth Bale played as a left-back for a long time and pretty much looked shit. It soon came to fruition that he isn't really a left-back, he was just a left-footed player who loved to run up and down. Not comparing the two players of course, but that switch of Bale from LB to LW showed actually how much of a not left-back he was/is.

In summary - whilst Moreno does not look comfortable at left-back, I can't help but feel that he doesn't need binning from the team, he just needs binning at left-back. Push him up the odd game and see if he comes into his own, because not only will teams exploit him, he might just be a great penertrative left-footed midfielder.

[Romford_Red]

I think full back in the modern day is one of the hardest positions to play. Well at least it is hardest to please fans.
You get one who is good at defending and he gets criticised for not being better going forward. You get one that is good at going forward and he's criticised for not being able to defend.
Johnson started off good at attacking and got heavily criticised for his defending. He got better at that and (naturally) going forward suffered. Ashley Cole had a similar story to that and he's one of the best full backs of the modern era.

Moreno certainly has his faults and is definitely prone to being rash. The rashness can be coached out of him (hopefully) but a fair amount of the positioning seems to be about him wanting (probably being told) to be alert for breaks forward and to  make sure he's up with play.

He's not anywhere near perfect, but I don't think he's as bad as some make out. I'm more than happy to give him a season.

It is also possible that Klopp knows who he wants to replace him (if he does want to) but that player is unavailable at the moment and he refuses to just spend on a stop gap and I'm completely happy with that approach.

[SMASHerano]

Mate, if you're taking that as a personal dig you've a very thin skin. I'm saying Klopp knows more infinitely more about football than you or I, or the majority of supporters. Suggesting he was ill prepared and didn't or doesn't know about Moreno's weaknesses is insulting to his professionalism.

He can be a frustrating player and he does make mistakes but so do all players. Some of his have been more noticeable than others but there was an article compating him to other LBs  in the league recently and he came off very favourably (both offensively and defensively).

All this, 'buy someone else', who? Moreno was supposed to solve these problems, he was feted at Sevilla, won the Europa with them and now here we are. There is no guarantee that whoever comes in is better, fits in the team, the league better, settles etc etc. Replacing him isn't a guaranteed panacea.

Klopp's mantra is training will improve you. He sees something in Moreno, and all the noises are he's not signing a new first choice LB, I'm trusting his judgement over yours. His other mantra is that it's everyone's responsibility to defend and help each other. It's very rarely one player at fault which is why scapegoating individuals really pisses me off.

Another dig I'm actually here for the mature conversations and talking football, but obviously you can't function without having those sly digs, so I'll just ignore them.

Anyway, the rest of your post is good except for that the fact that you're assuming that he's some sort of god that doesn't make mistakes. He can be a World Class manager who makes mistakes. Just look at Ferguson and his 2 blunders (starting Fabio over Pogba and Evans over Pique). Lots of fans back then rightly said both were mistakes when they happened.

Moreno's case is similar in my opinion. This doesn't take away anything from Klopp's abilities or his credibility or his "professionalism". It doesn't make me or any of the other supporters think we are better than him at his job too (as much as you'd like to convince yourself otherwise).

As for the replacement, we have over 7 scouts watching numerous leagues around the world. It's their job to identify a player who is better (not that that should be hard), not ours. Did anyone on here even hear about Kante before he won the league with Leicester? No, the scouts did their job brilliantly. Go ask them to identify better alternatives to Moreno, we just pointed out that we have an inadequate footballer playing there and that we need an upgrade there.

[SMASHerano]

Are you saying Clyne can go a whole game without conceding one cross?

No I am saying Clyne does not make the same mistakes every single game. Big difference.

[SC04OCT]

No I am saying Clyne does not make the same mistakes every single game. Big difference.

But you used the fact that Moreno conceded a cross in the second half as a stick to beat him with.

[SMASHerano]

But you used the fact that Moreno conceded a cross in the second half as a stick to beat him with.

No I used it to refute your statement that he had an impeccable second half.

[Jookie]

Opposition managers target him as he's a weak link

Do opposition managers target Moreno or our left hand side? Subtly I think there are differences. The way we set up our left hand side is more exposed than the right hand side. That would be the same whether it was Moreno or another left back playing.

[SC04OCT]

No I used it to refute your statement that he had an impeccable second half.

There are crosses every game. You can't stop every single one.

[nico 8]

Based on our transfer strategy so far, or at least what is visible to the ordinary fan, it doesn't seem that Klopp wants to replace Moreno. He wanted to add some competition with Chilwell. It's hard to envision Chilwell being brought in to 100% start ahead of Moreno.

I don't think anyone is completely happy with Moreno. Though there are people (me included) that can see why Klopp might value someone with Moreno's attributes in the current system. I personally think someone with Moreno's attributes are essential if you want to accommodate and get the best out of Coutinho on the LHS of attack. If you want Coutinho to have licence to drift inside and exploit any space centrally then a left back who can join the attack and provide width is essential. I'd rather live with Moreno's mistakes than play a defensive full back every game.

If there was a left back who could provide Moreno's attributes and had good positional play and a brain, I'm sure no-one here would shed a tear if Moreno was ditched for them. It's difficult to think Klopp wouldn't do the same. I'd guess there are very few players who can offer that skill set though. Ones that will join us and we can afford? Maybe even less.

Over the course of the season maybe I'll join that group of people whose heads are burnt out by Moreno. The ones who just want to see him gone. The ones who want a defensively solid full back who would normally excel in a standard 442. I don't blame people for thinking this way when they see Moreno doing something reckless. I just wish the same people would at least give some thought to how Moreno helps our team shape when attacking and why Klopp still values him in that position.

Agree with this. There is no doubt he would look a better player if  he merely held back and fulfilled his defensive duties thereby taking fewer risks. It reminded me of Gomes in that position prior to his injury. He started off really well then got worked out and got skinned a couple of times. Gave a penalty away as well.  I understand that it wasn't his natural position and that he did really well but he gave us absolutely nothing going forward.  I seem to recollect that it began to adversely affect Coutinho.
Milner is not the answer either. He was fortunate against Barcelona as he was exposed and skinned several times. Sure- Messi skinned him but on the one occasion  Suarez lost him and but for the volley chance he did not take -it would have been 1-1. Milner could do a decent job but in no way would he able to offer an alternative option on the break. He doesn't have the legs for it. He can offer other things but that would necessitate a change in style/ pattern.
I do not believe that Moreno is the long term solution (different additional reasons) but just perhaps Klopp believes that this is the player that fits into his system. He believes in the collective and unless there are upgrades available he clearly wants to work in improving him.
I will live with that for now.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Alberto is one of the least good players in our matchday squads.  But he's feckin leagues ahead of a lot of the dross we've had to put up with over the past decade.  Even just at left back - Dossena?  PFK?  Djimi "has he even seen a football before" Traore?

Seriously, if there was an every-touch video of Djimi in Istanbul, people would be demanding we give Moreno a 10-year contract.  He's inconsistent, he's not as good as we'd like.  But he's a long way from being as bad as some make out.  Upgrade him when we can?  Definitely.  Do it before we'd sorted out the lack of pace and goal threat through the squad?  Or the issue of cover at centre back?  Of course not.

He'll almost certainly be gone by this time next year, and if not it will be because he's been coached out of the worst errors.  We may yet find a better option by the end of this month.  Either way, he'll do for now.

Mané, Matip and Klavan haven't helped with that?

[SC04OCT]

Opposition managers target him as he's a weak link, there's a reason why so many people don't rate him, it isn't personal, we just want to the best players possible at the club. we'd all love him to succeed as he does have his good parts to his game, his speed, his attitude, he can sometimes add to the attack, but he's a defender and currently he's doesn't do it very well, if Klopp can change that then great but it'll have to be soon or we must look to but someone better, either in this window or January.

That explains why Arsenal targeted our right in the second half.

[liverpool185]

As soon as the Europa League final was over we should of started planning to go all out and get a top class left back. That final performance from Moreno was one of the worst individual performances i have ever seen since i started watching the game of football. Yesterday in the first half, within a few minutes he nearly cost us two goals had it not been for Mignolet's penalty save. If we don't do something about this he is just going to be targeted all season and it's going to cost us a lot of points.

As for the shouts of Milner competing with him at left back, that's just completely ridiculous. Milner isn't a left back and has no right being played there, reminds of when Rodgers was shoe-horning Emre there and we all know how that turned out.

It will be a massive mistake from Klopp to carry on this blind show of support for him, everyone can see he just isn't up for the job. He need's replacing by someone better and maybe that will give him a good kick up the arse to focus on improving.

[BoRed]

I can't imagine Klopp wants a leftback caught out of position repeatedly.

Unless, of course, according to Klopp, he isn't being caught out of position repeatedly. It may just be that every time an expert like Carra tells us Moreno was out of position, he was in fact exactly in the position Klopp wanted him to be in. Central defenders like Carra want full backs to never go forward. Managers like Klopp think differently. Moreno was not out of position for the first goal, if he had stayed behind, and Lallana hadn't lost the ball, we would have been a man short going forward, and Moreno would truly have been out of position.

[TheBigRedFatPanda]

Week-in, week-out, if you put on MOTD or Sky Sports after one of our games, they analyse our defensive shortcomings and sort of half-do opposition scouting for them. Moreno, has almost, always been under question and teams will just continually try to exploit the left when he is playing - whether the goal was his fault or not, teams will just pile the pressure onto him because they know he is not at the level needed to handle the defensive pressure.

The question is, will that come? Do you stick or twist?

The very same could be said for Migs in goal - which is why we've gone out and gotten him backup and competition (it seems like we may be sticking with him for the time being).

Said it before and I'll say it again - if we hadn't paid at the fee as we did for Moreno, he'd have been loaned out to a Championship club to get experience, like so many other Spanish players that we've had. And that isn't anything against Spanish players, but it is as if Moreno has 3-5-2 mentality.  Every time I see him play in a four-man defense, I always get the feeling that he feels out of position - I always get the feeling that he is looking for that extra support from the defence.

In all honesty, I could only see a future for Moreno if he was used further up the pitch because all I can see with Moreno is a winger-at-heart, who has, at some point in his career, been utilised as a defender. That all seems a bit Football Managery, but Moreno is a good player, he's fast, tennacous and is quite skillful - he can score and runs like a demon.

This is a pretty crude and far from fact association - but Gareth Bale - Gareth Bale played as a left-back for a long time and pretty much looked shit. It soon came to fruition that he isn't really a left-back, he was just a left-footed player who loved to run up and down. Not comparing the two players of course, but that switch of Bale from LB to LW showed actually how much of a not left-back he was/is.

In summary - whilst Moreno does not look comfortable at left-back, I can't help but feel that he doesn't need binning from the team, he just needs binning at left-back. Push him up the odd game and see if he comes into his own, because not only will teams exploit him, he might just be a great penertrative left-footed midfielder.

Good post. Agree with all your points and especially that Moreno should be converted to a winger. Although he has not shown too much promise in attack but that could also be down to the fact that he has to worry about defending. He looks to have the attributes needed to become a winger. The only problem is that we are very short on the LB position and Moreno is probably the only player who can play there right now. So, we definitely need to go out and buy another LB that can push Moreno out of the LB position. The other problem Moreno would face is the number of attacking mids we currently have and the fact that Coutinho currently plays sort of a LM role.

We also now have Gini who Klopp is playing as CM who will more often than not wander into the opposition box which means we need our FB's to be stronger defensively and less marauding forward to help with the attack.

[SC04OCT]

Unless, of course, according to Klopp, he isn't being caught out of position repeatedly. It may just be that every time an expert like Carra tells us Moreno was out of position, he was in fact exactly in the position Klopp wanted him to be in. Central defenders like Carra want full backs to never go forward. Managers like Klopp think differently. Moreno was not out of position for the first goal, if he had stayed behind, and Lallana hadn't lost the ball, we would have been a man short going forward, and Moreno would truly have been out of position.

Nail on the head.