Topic: CLQF: Liverpool vs Real Madrid (1-3)

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Fair point, but when you compare the two performances, its very hard to believe it was an ability issue. Especially if you add in the PL match performances.

For the same group of players to perform so poorly and then so well, against the same team, just a week apart...its stunning. Also if you watch the match, the goals may have been down to individual mistakes, but the general performance wasn't. Especially the first half. No pressing, no recovery runs, no intensity, ... to me that's either motivational or tactical, both of which are down to the manager.

Madrid didn't play the same way in the 2nd leg as they did in the first. They didn't need to. However we played better and had the better chances to score but didn't.  We also adapted to what they did in the first game, in the 2nd game. We pressed better and didn't leave the space for their midfield to dominate and expose our backline. We didn't do that in the first game. That's not a motivation factor.

You can say it's tactical, but if the  manager set out the tactical plan to nullify them, and the players didn't execute them properly, it's down to the manager? I don't think so. Players have to take ownership of certain aspects of the game. No amount of coaching will get you to perform well in every single match.

Mistakes are part of football, but we made too many of them against an experienced side who took advantage. But we also didn't play at our best level. Now you can say that in hindsight our selection should have been different, but then again Keita played poorly as did various other players, so even if the tactics were spot on, the players didn't execute them. Again I don't think it's a matter of motivation.

Poor execution, sure.  Hell even if you want to argue that the tactics weren't correct, that's possible. But again your whole argument is that Klopp didn't motivate the players.

I disagree. The manager doesn't need to motivate the players for every single game either.  You shouldn't have to do that, against Real Madrid, in the first leg, away from home. Not with these experienced players we have.

I can't sit here and criticize the manager, because Robertson or XYZ player couldn't make a five yard pass consistently in the game. That's not a lack of motivation, or down to the manager, that's down to the player. It's a bad day at the office, a poor job overall from everyone involved.

[Dave McCoy]

I 100% believe in the first leg the team was setup to play a game that didn't happen and then couldn't adjust to the actual game.  I think it's a fallacy that Madrid dominated midfield.  They barely tried to play through midfield which completely negated our tactics.  What they did do is figure out ways to get the ball to Kroos in space to pick out passes, usually in amongst the back line of Madrid and in his own half.  We had the majority of possession even in the first half which is not the hallmarks of midfield dominance.  Whether you want to blame that on the players or manager is up to you to decide.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I 100% believe in the first leg the team was setup to play a game that didn't happen and then couldn't adjust to the actual game.  I think it's a fallacy that Madrid dominated midfield.  They barely tried to play through midfield which completely negated our tactics.  What they did do is figure out ways to get the ball to Kroos in space to pick out passes, usually in amongst the back line of Madrid and in his own half.  We had the majority of possession even in the first half which is not the hallmarks of midfield dominance.  Whether you want to blame that on the players or manager is up to you to decide.

In my opinion, they dominated the midfield in the sense, that we didn't suppress them from doing what they wanted when they wanted when they had the chance to do so. Even with us having more possession, they were able to use their strengths to exploit us. We didn't make it difficult on them. At least that's how I view it.

[Alf]

I thought we played well, as well as at any point this season. We lacked a cutting-edge in the final third & as a collective our front 3 have dropped off from their form of the last 4 seasons. Difficult to point the finger at Mo with his goal tally.

[Dave McCoy]

In my opinion, they dominated the midfield in the sense, that we didn't suppress them from doing what they wanted when they wanted when they had the chance to do so. Even with us having more possession, they were able to use their strengths to exploit us. We didn't make it difficult on them. At least that's how I view it.

I think we agree on what happened but not why it happened.  Real played 40 long balls in the first 45 minutes, almost all from their own half, and they only contested midfield when we had the ball.  To me that's an overall tactical failure and not a simple midfield issue. 

[kkhaku]

Madrid didn't play the same way in the 2nd leg as they did in the first. They didn't need to. However we played better and had the better chances to score but didn't.  We also adapted to what they did in the first game, in the 2nd game. We pressed better and didn't leave the space for their midfield to dominate and expose our backline. We didn't do that in the first game. That's not a motivation factor.

You can say it's tactical, but if the  manager set out the tactical plan to nullify them, and the players didn't execute them properly, it's down to the manager? I don't think so. Players have to take ownership of certain aspects of the game. No amount of coaching will get you to perform well in every single match.

Mistakes are part of football, but we made too many of them against an experienced side who took advantage. But we also didn't play at our best level. Now you can say that in hindsight our selection should have been different, but then again Keita played poorly as did various other players, so even if the tactics were spot on, the players didn't execute them. Again I don't think it's a matter of motivation.

Poor execution, sure.  Hell even if you want to argue that the tactics weren't correct, that's possible. But again your whole argument is that Klopp didn't motivate the players.

I disagree. The manager doesn't need to motivate the players for every single game either.  You shouldn't have to do that, against Real Madrid, in the first leg, away from home. Not with these experienced players we have.

I can't sit here and criticize the manager, because Robertson or XYZ player couldn't make a five yard pass consistently in the game. That's not a lack of motivation, or down to the manager, that's down to the player. It's a bad day at the office, a poor job overall from everyone involved.

When it's a poor job from all 11 players on the pitch, I think it's a pretty safe bet to criticise the manager.

As you alluded to, our pressing was non existent in the first leg, there was no intensity to our game at all. You're telling me that was due to 11 players all making individual mistakes at the same time for 45 mins? Come on mate, the lads as a group were not up to it in that first leg, and if that's widespread Kloppo has to take the flak.

Not that I'm calling for his head or anything but he got something horribly wrong in that first leg, which is not like him at all. Just have to accept it and move on.

[Historical Fool]

Feels weird...fuck me I thought we had it after Mo’s half chance at the start of the match...!shades of barca.

We go again.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

When it's a poor job from all 11 players on the pitch, I think it's a pretty safe bet to criticise the manager.

As you alluded to, our pressing was non existent in the first leg, there was no intensity to our game at all. You're telling me that was due to 11 players all making individual mistakes at the same time for 45 mins? Come on mate, the lads as a group were not up to it in that first leg, and if that's widespread Kloppo has to take the flak.

Not that I'm calling for his head or anything but he got something horribly wrong in that first leg, which is not like him at all. Just have to accept it and move on.

I didn't say that Klopp can't take criticism for the first leg however, as I've said, the issue wasn't a lack of motivation. Multiple things can be true at once. I'm not going to blame Klopp for several players not being able to pass the ball consistently, and I'm not going to blame him for not motivating players enough for the first leg. You don't need to be motivated by a manager when you're facing Real Madrid, and if you do, you're at the wrong club. And quite clearly our players have shown that in recent history that they understand the nature of such matches.

You can say it's down to the tactics and  I'm not necessarily disagreeing with that aspect. However again as I've said, players have to take ownership and responsibility for the individual decisions [or lack of], mistakes and performances on the pitch. A manager is only responsible for so much, and when you have quality players on the pitch, you can't blame the manager and his lack of motivation in a game like this. you either performed or you didn't.

Ultimately we conceded two goals too quickly before we could make any in game adjustment to what Real were doing. This is why you often hear managers say that they need to get to half-time to make tactical adjustments. It's often difficult to do so during the game. And we found our selves in that predicament.

However we did get back into the game, and gave ourselves a big away goal despite our shit performance. But we made a number of mistakes defensively very quickly and conceded the 3rd.

So to reiterate, yes Klopp can take some blame perhaps tactically, but I personally don't believe him not being able to motivate the players for the first leg is a reason and I am not going to blame him for certain players not being able to do basic things that they otherwise do 99.9 percent of the time.

When it's a collective shit show, then you take the blame collectively, not blame it on one particular person i.e. Klopp or Keita.

[The 1989 Brit Awards]

Can we call them a boogie team now? I'm kinda tired of not beating them

[Ghost Town]

Can we call them a boogie team now?

Maybe, but it takes two to tango

[harleydanger]

I 100% believe in the first leg the team was setup to play a game that didn't happen and then couldn't adjust to the actual game.  I think it's a fallacy that Madrid dominated midfield.  They barely tried to play through midfield which completely negated our tactics.  What they did do is figure out ways to get the ball to Kroos in space to pick out passes, usually in amongst the back line of Madrid and in his own half.  We had the majority of possession even in the first half which is not the hallmarks of midfield dominance.  Whether you want to blame that on the players or manager is up to you to decide.

This is right. Backed up by watching Kroos try and do it in the 2nd leg, but not being able to hit the side of a barn, mainly because Milner was on him instantly

[Eeyore]

I think we agree on what happened but not why it happened.  Real played 40 long balls in the first 45 minutes, almost all from their own half, and they only contested midfield when we had the ball.  To me that's an overall tactical failure and not a simple midfield issue. 

For me that is a defensive issue and not a tactical one. We should have been absolutely delighted that Madrid kept going long. It should have been meat and drink to our centre backs. When you have Phillips getting done in both games by 60 yard straight balls . What exactly can you do about it, is a coach.

We had a clear defensive weakness at the back and Madrid ruthlessly took advantage. That was always likely to happen. We gave away 3 terrible goals against Madrid. It is nothing new against the top sides we simply aren't good enough without VVD, Gomez or Matip. The likes of City, Chelsea, United and Leicester have all done us at the back.

It isn't tactical or a lack of motivation it is just that the centre backs aren't good enough at the absolute highest level. They are giving everything but at this stage of their careers they simply aren't good enough.

[Eeyore]

This is right. Backed up by watching Kroos try and do it in the 2nd leg, but not being able to hit the side of a barn, mainly because Milner was on him instantly

That didn't even attempt to do it in the second leg because they didn't need to. They didn't even bother to attack for long periods of the game. It reminded me of Juve away in 2005. They just kept their shape, looked to retain possession and run the clock down.

[jepovic]

I think we agree on what happened but not why it happened.  Real played 40 long balls in the first 45 minutes, almost all from their own half, and they only contested midfield when we had the ball.  To me that's an overall tactical failure and not a simple midfield issue.

You can do that successfully if you have two of the best passers in all of football in midfield. Kroos and Modric were a constant threat, while our midfielders were harmless again. More importantly, they dominated midfield by easily evading our press with superior short passing.

It's perhaps harsh to compare our midfielders with some of the best central midfielders of this generation, Milner and Gini are by no means bad footballers, but this is the highest level of football.

[NarutoReds]

I think Gegenpresser101 is a nice and charming lad.    I believe you all are thinking the same too.

[liverbloke]

can only just post in this thread after watching the game

it's been said a hundred times but fuck me my gran could've scored some of those - and she passed away over 20 years ago bless her

and before anyone says 'oh but players do miss scoring opportunities y'know' then i know that BUT to miss soooooooooooooooooooo many chances is shockingly poor

overall i thought the team gave all they had and only seemed to tire near the end but not once did i see any real change to our tactics - maybe the boss was thinking with all those chances then something has to go in!!!! but alas

and the subs didn't make any impact

real played us and they aren't exceptionally good either - that night we could have won 4-0! okay they might've changed their tactics to one of attack (i know they scored 3 in the first leg) but we'll never know will we

so to end - we need a stronger squad with decent signings as signing 10 bob players gets you 10 bob performances (cept robbo of course who was bought for 5 bob and is already a legend) so get the club to give the boss loads of money IS the answer

you can only blame injuries and bad luck so much - if pele gets injured then bring on cruyff

[Wengerpresser101]

I think Gegenpresser101 is a nice and charming lad.    I believe you all are thinking the same too.

Love Reacts only.

[Bobinhood]

can only just post in this thread after watching the game

Ya

Im crushed we didnt get past those, i really thought we would probably do it. Not least because does Football really want a traditional National Symbol of extremely dubious charm, Two Oil States and a Top Oligarch in the final four of this cherished and hallowed competition? I thought the tides of fate wouldn't allow it even the sprites have fucked off for the year.

crap and we pretty much represent "The Right Stuff" between the incredible Teams weve thrown out there over the years and the incredible Fans likewise. 

disappointing from top to bottom. Fucks sake.

I dont dwell hardly ever and i wont dwell on this for long but its fronted up a little linger on me     

[Schmidt]

For me that is a defensive issue and not a tactical one. We should have been absolutely delighted that Madrid kept going long. It should have been meat and drink to our centre backs. When you have Phillips getting done in both games by 60 yard straight balls . What exactly can you do about it, is a coach.

We had a clear defensive weakness at the back and Madrid ruthlessly took advantage. That was always likely to happen. We gave away 3 terrible goals against Madrid. It is nothing new against the top sides we simply aren't good enough without VVD, Gomez or Matip. The likes of City, Chelsea, United and Leicester have all done us at the back.

It isn't tactical or a lack of motivation it is just that the centre backs aren't good enough at the absolute highest level. They are giving everything but at this stage of their careers they simply aren't good enough.

Real didn't really do anything we shouldn't have expected though, Chelsea did it to us, Fulham of all teams did it to us, all teams know you can blindly hit long balls in behind TAA when he pushes forward and Nat won't have the pace to do anything about it. Rashford will absolutely do the same to us and I wouldn't be shocked to see Nathan Redmond look world class against us a few weeks from now.

[Ghost Town]

can only just post in this thread after watching the game

it's been said a hundred times but fuck me my gran could've scored some of those - and she passed away over 20 years ago bless her

and before anyone says 'oh but players do miss scoring opportunities y'know' then i know that BUT to miss soooooooooooooooooooo many chances is shockingly poor

It is poor but it's not shocking because it's been happening all season; it's the 'new normal', if you like, for this season, so was kind of expected. I've no idea why it's happening but it's happened enough to be a tangible 'thing'.

We can but hope that it's a one season thing only; these players have never been so profligate before so they should revert back up to their expected mean

[HomesickRed]

It is poor but it's not shocking because it's been happening all season; it's the 'new normal', if you like, for this season, so was kind of expected. I've no idea why it's happening but it's happened enough to be a tangible 'thing'.

We can but hope that it's a one season thing only; these players have never been so profligate before so they should revert back up to their expected mean

Mane's loss of form and goals have really highlighted how much he and Salah carry Firmino.
Bobby's lack of goals is overlooked by many because he brings 'other' qualities, but when one of S or M misfires, he goes missing. Ditto the rest of the team.

[liverbloke]

It is poor but it's not shocking because it's been happening all season; it's the 'new normal', if you like, for this season, so was kind of expected. I've no idea why it's happening but it's happened enough to be a tangible 'thing'.

We can but hope that it's a one season thing only; these players have never been so profligate before so they should revert back up to their expected mean

ghosty is this what we need - coz i have my printer ready

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/D7WJgToNRps" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/D7WJgToNRps</a>

[Machae]

Feels weird...fuck me I thought we had it after Mo’s half chance at the start of the match...!shades of barca.

We go again.

We score one in the first half, then Madrid would have crumbled and I could only see one winner.

3 goals in 130 odd shots is not good, god knows what our Xg stat must have been in that spell