Topic: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)

[Syntexity]

Think Klopp need to take a little look at what Chelsea did and put three at the back, atleast against the lower teams so we can have cover against their counters. It will free up the possibility of wingbacks to cover the flanks and use Moreno. I know Moreno isnt the best fullback, but as a wing back he can do a good job (Milners form has dropped quite a bit lately). That way we can maybe attack a bit more freely as well. Our current set up works against the better sides, but we are so vulnerable against counter attacks against the lower sides.

[killer-heels]

Think Klopp need to take a little look at what Chelsea did and put three at the back, atleast against the lower teams so we can have cover against their counters. It will free up the possibility of wingbacks to cover the flanks and use Moreno. I know Moreno isnt the best fullback, but as a wing back he can do a good job (Milners form has dropped quite a bit lately). That way we can maybe attack a bit more freely as well. Our current set up works against the better sides, but we are so vulnerable against counter attacks against the lower sides.

That works for Chelsea because Hazard and Costa are absolute stars and massively efficient. Pedro scores a fair few as well.

A trio of Mane, Firmino and Coutinho are just not currently as efficient as them. Moving to 3 at the back against poorer sides would just make our trials to score more difficult.

[Suareznumber7]

Think Klopp need to take a little look at what Chelsea did and put three at the back, atleast against the lower teams so we can have cover against their counters. It will free up the possibility of wingbacks to cover the flanks and use Moreno. I know Moreno isnt the best fullback, but as a wing back he can do a good job (Milners form has dropped quite a bit lately). That way we can maybe attack a bit more freely as well. Our current set up works against the better sides, but we are so vulnerable against counter attacks against the lower sides.

I would actually like to see us move to Klopp's favored (at least at Dortmund) 4-2-3-1 next season.  Unfortunately, we don't really have the profile of players for this formation. 

Glaringly, we are obviously missing the type of #9 you would want in this formation.  Someone to play on the shoulder of the last defender and look to bring others into play.  A "Torres" type of striker would be perfect.  Strong, fast, technical, and deadly clinical in front of goal.

Then the three behind that striker is already set with Coutinho, Firmino, and Mane.  The intelligent movement of Firmino would complement a top #9 and Coutinho and Mane could continue to play in the "half spaces" as Klopp prefers. 

The midfield 2 is obviously where we would need some new players.  Hendo could certainly continue playing as the DM, your typical destroyer with good to sometimes great passing.  Alongside him we would need to recruit a top quality deep lying playmaker.  Someone who can spread the ball around with pace and precision.

The two players who really don't fit in a "2" in the 4-2-3-1, but are ideal as the forward midfielders in a 4-3-3, would be Lallana and Wijnaldum.  You could certainly play them further forward but that would likely be as 2nd choice behind the current front 3.   

If Klopp wants to continue playing a high line, which I think he does, then we definitely need at least a top CB as well as better attacking fullbacks on both sides.  A high line also requires a quality "sweeper keeper" which I think we have in Karius. 

Karius
Ward

Clyne     Matip    New CB    New LB
Arnold   Gomez   Lovren    Milner/Moreno

Hendo    New CM
Can        Grujic?

Mane              Firmino     Coutinho
New Attacker  Lallana     Wijnaldum?

New striker
Origi
Ings?

Doesn't look a great side right now but a few really good additions could see us start on the path to a top team.  Transforming the side isn't going to happen in one or even two summer windows though.  Klopp needs some time to get his players in and develop them as he prefers his teams/players to play. 

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Re the cycle of having access to 'top' players who only want to come play champions league. They are not stupid you know. Looking at the pattern of our league finishes they can spot the difference between the likelihood of consistent success between a Liverpool and a Chelsea. Finishing 6th and 7th for years followed by a champions league qualification isn't the recruitment tool it's bigged up to be simply (as we've already seen with Rodgers) because it looks like a one off. You need to do it consistently before you can wave it in front of a prospective player.

We already have almost complete access to the best markets in Spain, France, Italy, Germany. The next bit of the process - recognising quality - is entirely on us. It's been mixed, to put it nicely. 

[fowlermagic]

Re the cycle of having access to 'top' players who only want to come play champions league. They are not stupid you know. Looking at the pattern of our league finishes they can spot the difference between the likelihood of consistent success between a Liverpool and a Chelsea. Finishing 6th and 7th for years followed by a champions league qualification isn't the recruitment tool it's bigged up to be simply (as we've already seen with Rodgers) because it looks like a one off. You need to do it consistently before you can wave it in front of a prospective player.

We already have almost complete access to the best markets in Spain, France, Italy, Germany. The next bit of the process - recognising quality - is entirely on us. It's been mixed, to put it nicely. 

The joys of the modern footballer as you require CL football to attract the best and even then the cream of the crop wont sign a 4 year contract to a club who frequent the best competition once in a blue moon. And even worse is the fear of losing our best players to clubs who can offer consistent CL football. Its a vicious cycle as the likelihood of holding on to our top players and even our manager may become difficult in the next 18 months if we don't try n bridge the gap. Im sure Klopp loves a challenge but he also knows the thrill of competing in and contesting for domestic and European honours. He is not going to keep looking at the crumbs offered to him when each window opens as two or three seasons of indifferent form is a lifetime when it comes to footballing reputations.

[Giono]

To bring it back to tactics rather than summer shopping.

Our current tactics could still work if we upgraded to wingbacks that cross less and cross more effectively, that can run at defenders from wide and deep and release the ball to on-coming attackers, and that have recovery pace which allows the freedom to go as deep into the opponent's third.

Our tactics include committing our wingbacks forward to join attacking play. But our current wingbacks lack the guile, technique or speed to play so daringly. Milner's downfall is recovery speed, decision making and being right-footed. Clyne's weakness is decision-making and guile.

Moreno was Klopp's first choice left fullback when he initiated this tactic at the beginning of the season. Maybe he should rethink dropping him? Offensively it could be much much better and give Phil more space to operate. Defensively, could it be much worse?


Imagine Hendo/Can passing it up to Moreno instead of Milner. Which option would cause more alarm to the opposing defenders?

[harryc]

To bring it back to tactics rather than summer shopping.

Our current tactics could still work if we upgraded to wingbacks that cross less and cross more effectively, that can run at defenders from wide and deep and release the ball to on-coming attackers, and that have recovery pace which allows the freedom to go as deep into the opponent's third.

Our tactics include committing our wingbacks forward to join attacking play. But our current wingbacks lack the guile, technique or speed to play so daringly. Milner's downfall is recovery speed, decision making and being right-footed. Clyne's weakness is decision-making and guile.

Moreno was Klopp's first choice left fullback when he initiated this tactic at the beginning of the season. Maybe he should rethink dropping him? Offensively it could be much much better and give Phil more space to operate. Defensively, could it be much worse?


Imagine Hendo/Can passing it up to Moreno instead of Milner. Which option would cause more alarm to the opposing defenders?

I would imagine the same as both of them cant beat a man.

Jimmy's lofted crosses into the box or Moreno smashing them across,  again nothing really much to worry about!

[Giono]

I would imagine the same as both of them cant beat a man.

Jimmy's lofted crosses into the box or Moreno smashing them across,  again nothing really much to worry about!

Moreno has recovery pace. He can run down the line and create space for Phil. He can take a corner. There's a few things other than beating his man. Worth the risk I'd say if JK is taking the risk of playing his wingbacks so high anyway.

[SerbianScouser]

You gotta admire how much Klopp can get into opposition manager's head and freak them out.

Cech is averaging cca 6 long balls per game, he had 31 today. Wenger openly talked afterwards of how he dropped Alexis so they go direct haha. It's incredible how much managers can get paranoid about Klopp's pressing and would go as far as possible from their own philosophies fearing they might not have what it takes to deal with such challenge.

[rocco]

cca ?

[SerbianScouser]

cca ?

circa.

[Suareznumber7]

You gotta admire how much Klopp can get into opposition manager's head and freak them out.

Cech is averaging cca 6 long balls per game, he had 31 today. Wenger openly talked afterwards of how he dropped Alexis so they go direct haha. It's incredible how much managers can get paranoid about Klopp's pressing and would go as far as possible from their own philosophies fearing they might not have what it takes to deal with such challenge.

To be fair, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that we struggle against direct teams.  The problem that Wenger had was he tried playing to a target man instead of someone to run in behind. 

[JackWard33]

To be fair, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that we struggle against direct teams.  The problem that Wenger had was he tried playing to a target man instead of someone to run in behind. 

Think his idea was that Giroud wins the first ball and holds it up and then the 3 behind him can break off that on the counter
It's a pretty solid plan against us but why he wouldn't use Sanchez as one of the 3 is clearly down to other things

[Miltonred]

You gotta admire how much Klopp can get into opposition manager's head and freak them out.

Cech is averaging cca 6 long balls per game, he had 31 today. Wenger openly talked afterwards of how he dropped Alexis so they go direct haha. It's incredible how much managers can get paranoid about Klopp's pressing and would go as far as possible from their own philosophies fearing they might not have what it takes to deal with such challenge.

I don't think it was the pressing he was concerned about, I think he just thought we would be shit at defending the long ball - which has been essentially true for weeks now. Think of the goals we have given up from direct play. As it happened we ha Matip and Klavan in good form and Wenger had to change it up in  the second half.

[Suareznumber7]

Think his idea was that Giroud wins the first ball and holds it up and then the 3 behind him can break off that on the counter
It's a pretty solid plan against us but why he wouldn't use Sanchez as one of the 3 is clearly down to other things

The game changed when Sanchez came on. Why he didn't start with someone who is arguably one of the top 2-3 players in the league is baffling to me.

[McrRed]

The game changed when Sanchez came on. Why he didn't start with someone who is arguably one of the top 2-3 players in the league is baffling to me.

It was a good plan. It didn't work.

As said already, there seems to be a backstory that hasn't come out yet.

[Dree]

You gotta admire how much Klopp can get into opposition manager's head and freak them out.

Cech is averaging cca 6 long balls per game, he had 31 today. Wenger openly talked afterwards of how he dropped Alexis so they go direct haha. It's incredible how much managers can get paranoid about Klopp's pressing and would go as far as possible from their own philosophies fearing they might not have what it takes to deal with such challenge.

But teams who can play directly well can beat us with ease, that it's often a negative knowing that we always want to high press. Lallana and Firmino's pressing can be bypassed and if we are disadvantaged in the back four (e.g. Vardy vs. Lucas). We definitely need more strength in depth in CB and deep midfield.

[Suareznumber7]

It was a good plan. It didn't work.

As said already, there seems to be a backstory that hasn't come out yet.

Regardless of how good your plan is you don't develop one without your best player heavily involved. 

[SerbianScouser]

But teams who can play directly well can beat us with ease, that it's often a negative knowing that we always want to high press. Lallana and Firmino's pressing can be bypassed and if we are disadvantaged in the back four (e.g. Vardy vs. Lucas). We definitely need more strength in depth in CB and deep midfield.

You're spot on but at least it's crystal clear what the problem is. For me personally it's a lot more about tactics and approach rather than the quality of our personnel. Klopp is probably struggling with this issue as he never had to face it in Germany at least not to this extent but in theory this problem should be easier to solve than if you were poor against top teams and didn't know how to compete with them. It's definitely too late this season but hopefully Klopp will figure out in the summer how to resolve this issue.

[liverpool185]

Klopp and his teams over the years have always struggled big time against sides who's plan is to sit back and frustrate you. Why do you think we have such a good record against the big sides under Klopp? It's because the top teams come to play and that works in Klopp's favour, he's a counter attacking coach and always has been. It's so damn obvious that we need to start working in training on teams that's game plan is to sit back and frustrate. I think Klopp needs to evolve a bit as coach and move away a bit from being a counter attacking side if we are to be successful.

[KiNki]

Klopp and his teams over the years have always struggled big time against sides who's plan is to sit back and frustrate you. Why do you think we have such a good record against the big sides under Klopp? It's because the top teams come to play and that works in Klopp's favour, he's a counter attacking coach and always has been. It's so damn obvious that we need to start working in training on teams that's game plan is to sit back and frustrate. I think Klopp needs to evolve a bit as coach and move away a bit from being a counter attacking side if we are to be successful.

We've had the same issues with houllier and rafa.  Neither of those manager invested in wingers to truley stretch teams and create space, too risky, Klopp wants too increase the depth of wide players we have, but hasn't been able to.  Hopefully he will in the summer and we'll have a viable alternative tactic for teams who want to sit deep.

[liverpool185]

We've had the same issues with houllier and rafa.  Neither of those manager invested in wingers to truley stretch teams and create space, too risky, Klopp wants too increase the depth of wide players we have, but hasn't been able to.  Hopefully he will in the summer and we'll have a viable alternative tactic for teams who want to sit deep.

I don't think it matters who we bring in the summer, forget rafa and houiller for a second, Klopp as a manger has always struggled against these types of sides. Dortmund wasn't renowned for there dominating football, it was because they were such a devastating counter attacking side, that's what Klopp does.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Since Rafa left, we have conceded a minimum of 40 goals a season. For us to achieve anything in this league, that has to change, and Klopp will have to make adjustments in the summer.

[bird_lfc]

Since Rafa left, we have conceded a minimum of 40 goals a season. For us to achieve anything in this league, that has to change, and Klopp will have to make adjustments in the summer.

We get Rafa in as an assistant manager/defensive coach. Problem solved!

[KiNki]

180+ in the past few seasons, shocking defensive vulnerability that goes beyond klopp, much like dealing with teams that park the bus.  He needs to address both aspects and to do that he needs full support of the board, well whoever it is that signs the cheques.

[Giono]

You're spot on but at least it's crystal clear what the problem is. For me personally it's a lot more about tactics and approach rather than the quality of our personnel. Klopp is probably struggling with this issue as he never had to face it in Germany at least not to this extent but in theory this problem should be easier to solve than if you were poor against top teams and didn't know how to compete with them. It's definitely too late this season but hopefully Klopp will figure out in the summer how to resolve this issue.

Do you think he will abandon committing so many players forward and playing a high line? I have my doubts that he thinks the trade-off needs to be adjusted tactically. For example, will he recognise that Clyne is better in defense than on attack and adjust how high up he plays Clyne? He hasn't all season.

My guess is he will look to upgrade 3-4 positions like he did last summer. He brought in Matip, Wijnaldum and Mane to play our current tactics and they basically start every game pretty much. Why would he suddenly return to the drawing board? 

We can beat any team in the league with the current tactic, even with the current starting 11. Why change that? Just because when playing the bottom teams they allow our low-threat players most of the ball (Clyne, Milner, Hendo)? Up grade the wingbacks and maybe DM, thereby heightening the threat from those positions and the lower teams' tactics will have to adjust...not our tactic. Suddenly they won't be able to just stay compact and crowd our front 3. They'll have to stretch out from the box to try to impede the wingbacks on each side and the DM up top. They'll have to consider stopping our build-up instead of just running back to set-up the block.

[Fromola]

It was a good plan. It didn't work.

As said already, there seems to be a backstory that hasn't come out yet.

It wasn't, we could have been there for the taking without Henderson and defensive problems and after Monday but Ozil missing and Sanchez dropped was a big boost. I didn't think we played that well first half, at least initially (we were better against Spurs) but Arsenal were dreadful first half and that allowed us to get our flow back again.

[Giono]

Klopp and his teams over the years have always struggled big time against sides who's plan is to sit back and frustrate you. Why do you think we have such a good record against the big sides under Klopp? It's because the top teams come to play and that works in Klopp's favour, he's a counter attacking coach and always has been. It's so damn obvious that we need to start working in training on teams that's game plan is to sit back and frustrate. I think Klopp needs to evolve a bit as coach and move away a bit from being a counter attacking side if we are to be successful.

We are having trouble carving teams open when they are tough defensively. If you were having trouble carving a roast, would you abandon eating meat altogether? Or would you sharpen your knife?

We need some more lethal players with speed and guile down the wings. To stretch defences, then cut them open with a pass or a dribble. Mane does that. And we missed that big time when he was at AFCON.

[SerbianScouser]

For me the best solution is to improve our build-up play any which way we can.

For example we go away to Burnley or Leicester, they press us high up the pitch and by doing so totally destroy our build-up because we start hoofing like crazy fearing passing through their press. That's not good enough , we should be delighted these teams want to push up and not fear it. They dragged us down to their level and we started playing their game instead of focusing on doing what we do best.

Between Mignolet, Lovren and Henderson there's not enough courage on the ball to pass out from the back , our build-up play is poor the entire season because of them; against big teams is not a big issue because they allow us to press them back which is how we gain foothold in these games.

If we bring couple of players who have much more courage on the ball we will go next season to these places and pass through their press for fun because they're fucking Burnley and Leicester and we're supposed to be technically superior to them. And when we do that we'll make a mockery out of their pressing , pass right through them and have all the space we need in the final third to cause serious damage.

Improving our build-up play would be a much more efficient solution because we already have ingredients in our front 5 while if we wanted to solve the issue by becoming a much more direct team and all the good work we've done so far will go to waste.

[Lycan]

We've got to start moving the ball much quicker in and around the box when we're facing these low block teams. We've been starting so slowly against these sides, which has been allowing themselves to get organised. It's all been too easy for them. We're playing right into their hands time and again.

[Giono]

For me the best solution is to improve our build-up play any which way we can.

You have a point there. I think when Klopp gets most frustrated during matches is when players make poor choices. And Lovren is culpable for sure.

People can criticise Sakho, but he did not lack 'courage on the ball' as you call it. People's criticism of him could  be that he had too much. Makes not having him this season all the more frustrating. Hendo's circulating the ball to (deferring to) the centre backs would not have been such a bad thing if we had Sakho and Matip on either side of him trying to find midfielders with their passes.

Possibly we don't need to replace Hendo if we have a 2nd quality passer in central defence and if we have more creative wingbacks for Hendo to launch it up to up field?

[bolusanya]

I guess thats one of the reasons he likes to play lucas as the back then

[cdav]

To beat the shite teams we need to stop conceding goals against them, that is the easiest way. We shouldn't need to have to score 3 or 4 to beat a Swansea, Sunderland or Burnley. So we need a better centre back (as the drop off after Matip and Lovren, who are injury prone, is too big) and a left back.

We also need another quality wide player who is quick and can beat a man, this would stretch them and hopefully create space. We also need a clinical centre forward for these types of games, someone who can score off a half chance to get us  the vital first goal.

And finally, we need more patience in our play so we can keep working the opponent until we get a good quality chance- maybe this would require another midfielder who can knit play together as well get into the box.

[Miltonred]

"You are inconsistent, until you are the team you want to be, then you are consistent."JK.
I like that quote. It makes sense.

I have mentioned that we have players who are inconsistent, game to game, and we have players who are inconsistent within a game.

I don't think the problem with consistency is really an issue of how teams sit back against us, I think its about the players ability to execute.

There were two examples yesterday involving Clyne. In the second half with Sanchez on, and already showing that his intent was to push down the left, Clyne made an overlapping run when it was already 2-1, bursting beyond Sanchez anticipating a pass that never came because the player on the ball was under pressure. It was the wrong choice by Clyne, the ball was turned over and Sanchez wound up with it. Arsenal could have equalised on that play. The camera cut to Klopp and you could see he wasn't happy with Clynes choice. Ditto a few minutes later when Clyne did get the ball into the box, but chose to shot when Coutinho was wide open on the penalty spot.

Those are the things that work better when the players execute. It might mean we need a better right back, or Clyne might just learn to be a smarter player.

[jillcwhomever]

To beat the shite teams we need to stop conceding goals against them, that is the easiest way. We shouldn't need to have to score 3 or 4 to beat a Swansea, Sunderland or Burnley. So we need a better centre back (as the drop off after Matip and Lovren, who are injury prone, is too big) and a left back.

We also need another quality wide player who is quick and can beat a man, this would stretch them and hopefully create space. We also need a clinical centre forward for these types of games, someone who can score off a half chance to get us  the vital first goal.

And finally, we need more patience in our play so we can keep working the opponent until we get a good quality chance- maybe this would require another midfielder who can knit play together as well get into the box.

Julian Brandt is one of the players who is high up on our list for the summer. Certainly he is a genuine winger, who would give us some pace and create plenty of space, but we also need to work on the defence too, as well as a goal keeper.

[Giono]

To beat the shite teams we need to stop conceding goals against them, that is the easiest way. We shouldn't need to have to score 3 or 4 to beat a Swansea, Sunderland or Burnley. So we need a better centre back (as the drop off after Matip and Lovren, who are injury prone, is too big) and a left back.

We also need another quality wide player who is quick and can beat a man, this would stretch them and hopefully create space. We also need a clinical centre forward for these types of games, someone who can score off a half chance to get us  the vital first goal.

And finally, we need more patience in our play so we can keep working the opponent until we get a good quality chance- maybe this would require another midfielder who can knit play together as well get into the box.

We don't need to score 3-4, but with our offence we should threaten to score 2-3 against bottom 3 teams and more importantly: We should score first to make them chase a draw and not be just content to sit back and defend to get a result.

Our goals against tally is partially from us chasing results, over-committing and leaving space. It's not all down to the quality of our defenders. Although they can certainly be upgraded.

Patient build up play? That's what we do now when the opponents concede possession. I'd like to see much quicker transition from our deeper midfielders and our wingbacks to get us flooding up field with quick movement and quick passing to feet. Letting them set-up like they want by being patient in possession is not the recipe I don't think.

[Upinsmoke]

We didn't press arsenal that high yesterday, especially second half when Alexis Sanchez came on, I just don't understand why we have to press up to the halfway line against the so called lesser teams when it's obvious there main strength is counter attack.

Or maybe go three at the back against the lesser teams so we have a bit of defensive cover on the counter but still retain the width. The likes of Leicester and Hull were narrow but direct so surely that goes some way to nullify that?

[SerbianScouser]

Or maybe go three at the back against the lesser teams so we have a bit of defensive cover on the counter but still retain the width. The likes of Leicester and Hull were narrow but direct so surely that goes some way to nullify that?

Yup, for me to these 4 games away to W.Ham, Watford, Stoke and Wba we should go with 3 at the back push our fullbacks higher. It'll give us better coverage in the air and against the counter-attacks plus our build-up play should improve with more options at the back. Klopp has to try something for these 4 games because if we go same old same old I don't see what can change to what we've seen at Hull and Leicester.

[SerbianScouser]

Don't know where to post this as Can's thread has been locked but I for one thoroughly enjoyed his performance yesterday as a DM. Some lovely penetrating passes, switch of play, his first thought was always about a forward penetrating pass. It was very refreshing to see. Whether he gets another chance or not this season (probably not) it's nice to know that we have another very good DM option , player who imo is the most natural option for this role in our squad.

[rickardinho1]

                        Karius
                        Mignolet

Clyne    Matip           Lovren       Milner
Trent     Gomez        Klavan       Moreno
Randall
                      Henderson
                         Can
                        Lucas
                       Stewart

          Lallana              Wijnaldum
                                    Grujic
                                    Ejaria

 Mané                                   Coutinho
 Wilson                                  Ojo
 Kent                                     Woodburn
                    Firmino
                    Sturridge
                    Origi
                     Ings

There are 4 issues in this squad:

- lack of a natural LB
- lack of cover/alternative in midfield with Lallana's dynamism
- lack of first-team winger other than Mané
- lack of a clinical striker

James Pearce said recently that he sees a big summer with 5-6 signings and a few "deadwood" leaving.

Considering the way Klopp likes to play, and the 4 issues listen above, it seems logical to think that the following would happen:

- Buy a creative midfielder so the squad isn't overly reliant on Lallana.
- Buy another winger (or two, depending on progress of Ojo, Wilson, etc)

Likely departures (according to Pearce): Lucas, Moreno, Sturridge...

... meaning that with European football Klopp would probably want:

- Another CB, LB, and striker.

If anyone else leaves (Can? Mignolet?) then that would need to be accounted for too.

In summary:

In's: CB, LB, CM, LW, ST.
Out's: Lucas, Moreno, Sturridge

2017/18 projected squad:

                           Karius
                          Mignolet

Clyne        Matip        Lovren       LB
Trent           CB          Klavan       Milner
                 Gomez

                      Henderson
                        Can
                      Stewart

              Lallana          Wijnaldum
                 CM               Grujic
                                     Ejaria

   Mané                                       Coutinho
Wilson/Kent/Ojo/Woodburn          LW

                         Firmino
                           ST
                          Origi

If Pearce is right then changes along these lines look pretty reasonable, and address the key tactical short-falls of the current squad listed earlier:

- lack of a natural LB
- lack of cover/alternative in midfield with Lallana's dynamism
- lack of first-team winger other than Mané
- lack of a clinical striker

Those changes also re-balance the squad to keep players (eg. Firmino) having to be played out of position.