Topic: The Klopp Template

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

But it's not like we can plan to "do better against the weak teams" or "do better against the top 4" as a general strategy, right? It's meaningless, unless there is a distinct pattern in how that opposition group took points from us? I'd imagine we are looking at those patterns, irrespective of opponent status, if anything. It's one game, in the end, and you can say it was against City or against Brighton or against Leicester, but the margins are tiny, and if we keep knocking at the door, we'll win it again in all likelihood. Sooner or later, I imagine we'll give City another healthy beating, too - if the team hits a game against them at full health and tilt, I can well imagine a whirlwind performance this season, especially at home.

[Ghost Town]

There's no point in this kind of thinking. There's no one game where we "lost it" because you can't know what would have happened if we had won, say, the Brentford match or the Leicester match. Perhaps we'd have become more complacent and lost points elsewhere.

All we can say is we had a fantatsic season, lost fewer points than title winners normally lose, but still, for reasons we all know, it wasn't quite enough

[killer-heels]

Most of the dropped points being referenced occurred in the first half of the season and in mid to late December and there are two good reasons why that happened. Things that naturally we got over during the second half of the season.

[Knight]

Most of the dropped points being referenced occurred in the first half of the season and in mid to late December and there are two good reasons why that happened. Things that naturally we got over during the second half of the season.

We dropped points from easily winnable positions too many times and that was significantly down to a dysfunctional midfield. Thiago's fitness was huge for our almost impeccable form in the 2nd half of the season.

[killer-heels]

We dropped points from easily winnable positions too many times and that was significantly down to a dysfunctional midfield. Thiago's fitness was huge for our almost impeccable form in the 2nd half of the season.

As I have said many times before, we spent the best part of the first half of the season getting fully up to speed after the season before, which was a mad one. We had the likes of Van Dijk coming off the back of a long term injury and there were still questions over his level.

When we started to address the solidity of our side and became less open, we started to get even more success. That started after the loss to West Ham and we won 7 games or so in a row but then during December the Covid delays hit us hard and thats where we lost points against Spurs (a covid depleted midfield), Leicester and Chelsea.

[Dim Glas]

There's no point in this kind of thinking. There's no one game where we "lost it" because you can't know what would have happened if we had won, say, the Brentford match or the Leicester match. Perhaps we'd have become more complacent and lost points elsewhere.

All we can say is we had a fantatsic season, lost fewer points than title winners normally lose, but still, for reasons we all know, it wasn't quite enough

yep.

Really no need for yet another cryarse-athon about dropped points, it’s dull enough that they occur in every match thread during the season when another team doesn’t get a draw against ‘insert random team name here’.  No idea how some enjoy this great team trying their utmost against cheats and sportswashers, when they can’t stop going back to a game that happend months and months ago.

[markmywords]

Many on here seem to believe we are gonna play 4 - 2 - 3 - 1 next yr, is there any reason why people think Klopp might do this this season, when all the reasons why we might existed last season when we didn't play it.  Sure we have no.9 in Nunez who doesn't appear to be great at linking the play, but then we started last season with jota at no.9 for whom the same could be said.

When we started to address the solidity of our side and became less open, we started to get even more success. That started after the loss to West Ham and we won 7 games or so in a row but then during December the Covid delays hit us hard and thats where we lost points against Spurs (a covid depleted midfield), Leicester and Chelsea.

Covid delays hit Leicester harder, as they wanted the game postponed having played 48 hrs earlier , getting smashed for 6 by city, we had a full 6 days rest by comparison.  Leicester away last yr could have been our most dissapointing performance/result in all of last season, it cost us huge and it could be said that we deserved to pay the full price + VAT

[tubby]

No sign of 4231 today, was the same 433 as before.

[Fromola]

No sign of 4231 today, was the same 433 as before.

The quotes about Morton yesterday suggesting he'd been playing as an 8 in training and less as a 6 now, led more to 433.

[Dave McCoy]

No sign of 4231 today, was the same 433 as before.

It's still early but on the other hand if one signing makes you change your whole setup then maybe that calls a lot into question?

It will be interesting to see though in relation to what ManC are doing with Haaland vs. what we're doing with Nunez. They're clearly changing their approach by shipping out Sterling and Jesus. I doubt we'll change anything to accommodate Nunez.

[redk84]

Games like the weekend are where we see a lot of old arguments raised. City prefer total domination of the game from start to finish - boring as fuck but works most of the time. Our way is ALSO as effective. Within one point of 2 of their titles doesn't mean they are doing anything outlandish compared to us

We purposely try to feel our way into games, it happened a lot towards back end of last season and mostly was fine as once we got going we would establish our dominance and win most of the time.
Alot are saying we should come out all guns blazing (or at least until we get the first goal) before trying to manage the game...I think this is my preferred wish of how we go about things considering the number of quality attackers we have in our squad (when all fit). I believe we went about things in this manner most of the time in our title winning season (and to be fair a chunk of last season also)...was a pattern to it, get the first goal, see if you can nick the 2nd, other team comes into it a bit and ooo-they could score or should score. was that offside?? blah blah - BANG, Mo/Mane/Jota gets our 2nd, usually in 80 to 90 mins. Game over. Cue cryarsing about how lucky we are...

We should play more to this attacking strength we are armed with...to really manage a game well from start to finish your midfield is very important and needs to be in tune, we are struggling with injuries/form atm.
We do have a great back 5 and our midfield can be very good when on song but you can scare a team before it sets a foot on the pitch by knowing they have to prepare for a bit of an onslaught. Then when we make our subs we can bring on some of our experienced lads who can help us control the game better. Or switch up with some hungry youngsters which will be a nuisance to some tired legs....whatever the match situation calls for really.

Just my thoughts anyway

I doubt that what we saw against Fulham was what was in mind for the way we play this season.

It was a familiar lineup that should have done the business but for some reason didnt on the day....8/10 times we'd win that match and im sure the coaches were fine to roll the dice on that.
I am interested to see how we set up once Nunez comes into the starting 11 as that is what I think will be what we have been planning for. We just have to get wins on the board until then so he has less pressure on his shoulders...

As far as the midfield goes, I think what we saw will be our midfield in big games. Nobody else is established enough to challenge them there yet but for other games they may have their chance to prove a point or two as especially when CL kicks in there will be a spaces up for grabs. As we know from the 3 that started, they're in their 30s or close to it so will need some rest.

I have not seen us at all prior to the match against Fulham, apart from the community shield which I was impressed with.

Am I way off here? what are your thoughts?

[Knight]

As far as the midfield goes, I think what we saw will be our midfield in big games. Nobody else is established enough to challenge them there yet but for other games they may have their chance to prove a point or two as especially when CL kicks in there will be a spaces up for grabs. As we know from the 3 that started, they're in their 30s or close to it so will need some rest.

It amazes me that people have such short memories. The midfield lineup in big game after big game last season was Fabinho, Thiago and Keita. It wasn't the only big game midfield lineup by any stretch, Henderson obviously started the CL final amongst other big games. But we played several away legs in the CL knockout phases with Henderson on the bench.

[redk84]

It amazes me that people have such short memories. The midfield lineup in big game after big game last season was Fabinho, Thiago and Keita. It wasn't the only big game midfield lineup by any stretch, Henderson obviously started the CL final amongst other big games. But we played several away legs in the CL knockout phases with Henderson on the bench.

forgot about keita. sorry pal 
he goes with that 3

the ones having to establish themselves are obviously jones (less him - played alot already), elliott, carvalho. Milner will only ever be a bit part player now

A settled midfield would be great. But with injuries that plague that part of our team for whatever reason we'd be lucky to get that for a good stretch, key would be to get enough of them to be fit at the same time for seamless transition - and ideally thiago and fab to be fit the most as they bring the most to the middle of the park

[Dave McCoy]

John Muller article on Trent, Salah and Nunez and how their movement created the first goal this weekend. Here's a gif from it that basically summarizes it.



https://theathletic.com/3485002/2022/08/08/nunez-salah-liverpool-combination/

[downtown]

8 games in PL and CL in a row now, dating back to after April 30th that we've conceded the first goal.

Granted we ended up winning most of those games (barring the most important one of course), but we really are making lives for ourself difficult with starting games a goal down.

Very concerning

[Knight]

We’re leaving PL trophies out there during Klopp and Allison, Van Dijk, Salah, Fabinho’s best years by not refreshing this squad properly.

[tubby]

I do wonder if it's because we're so open at the back all the time, no matter the score.  Teams always get very decent chances against us, and it's usually down to individual brilliance from our defenders or keeper that prevents those chances being taken.

We're an amazing team, one of the best ever, but I can't help but feel that we could be even better if we just learned to tighten things up.

[DelTrotter]

We've got problems only the transfer market is going to fix but it's near impossible to discuss on here without a barrage of "you want a new toy" "you done a urine in the bed" etc coming your way.

[Clint Eastwood]

We don't smother the opposition like we used to when we lose the ball high up the pitch, makes us more vulnerable. For sure, our lack of athleticism in midfield is partly responsible. It doesn't help that, during our midfield crisis, the ever-reliable Fabinho looks like he's aged 10 years.

[Knight]

We don't smother the opposition like we used to when we lose the ball high up the pitch, makes us more vulnerable. For sure, our lack of athleticism in midfield is partly responsible. It doesn't help that, during our midfield crisis, the ever-reliable Fabinho looks like he's aged 10 years.

Fabinho has always needed bodies around him. It was fine when we had prime Gini and Henderson and a very athletic if in his 30s Milner, to provide that. But now we have a 36 year old Milner, a declining Henderson, 2 youngsters who are raw, Keita who needs to be wrapped in cotton wool otherwise he breaks down and a world class but incredibly injury prone Thiago who we’re incredibly reliant on.

You look at our midfield options and you’ve got to ask serious questions of our squad planning. How did we let it get to this stage?

[BobPaisley3]

We've got problems only the transfer market is going to fix but it's near impossible to discuss on here without a barrage of "you want a new toy" "you done a urine in the bed" etc coming your way.

Agree. For the first time since his arrival it doesn’t look completely  like a Klopp squad. The inability to play through the lines and the desire to constantly get it wide was a worry. So many crosses into the box, even after Nunez went off. Against a team like Palace, slinging crossed in is generally bread and butter.

[CS111]

Fabinho has always needed bodies around him. It was fine when we had prime Gini and Henderson and a very athletic if in his 30s Milner, to provide that. But now we have a 36 year old Milner, a declining Henderson, 2 youngsters who are raw, Keita who needs to be wrapped in cotton wool otherwise he breaks down and a world class but incredibly injury prone Thiago who we’re incredibly reliant on.

You look at our midfield options and you’ve got to ask serious questions of our squad planning. How did we let it get to this stage?

This

Compare our midfield in general to city or Chelsea and it's poor really unless we have our first 4 playing every game which doesn't happen.

[Dave McCoy]

We don't smother the opposition like we used to when we lose the ball high up the pitch, makes us more vulnerable. For sure, our lack of athleticism in midfield is partly responsible. It doesn't help that, during our midfield crisis, the ever-reliable Fabinho looks like he's aged 10 years.

We don't? Elliott had a shit load of tackles and interceptions around the opposition box. The issue again and continues to be that once our initial press or counter press is broken then there is basically nothing stopping the opposing team from just ambling up to our box without concern. Every turnover that resulted in retained Palace possession seemingly ended with even man breaks against Nat, Virgil and Fabinho. Milner and Elliott were no where to be found until the ball was settled around our box. We're basically asking Fabinho to be Kante and he's not, I just don't get it.

[skipper757]

We've been great in 18/19, 19/20, and 21/22 in grinding out wins.  That's how we've reached all those point totals.  In 19/20, we were terrific at managing games (games like CP away, Sheff United home/away, Wolves home/away, Watford home, etc) without being amazing until we needed it (see City at home, Leicester away, etc).  It's what needed to win titles.  In 21/22, we did the same.  It's an absolutely insane run for the second half last year.  Just absolutely a winning machine.

The thing is though, we really ran out of steam due to the sheer number of games last year.  Our sheer will and game management mentality helped us get past the likes of Villa and Soton, and we did step up against City.  It was all about getting over the line when needed (came up short against Real, but they're also masters of game management and efficiency without being spectacular).

It seems like it's carried over to this season.  Stepped it up in the Community Shield against City.  But as the league kicked off, it's the same types of performances (just get over the line).  But unfortunately, the officials didn't help us with the Mitrovic penalty, and Darwin was sent off today after missing some chances.  When playing with such fine margins all the time, a couple of breaks go against you, and you can't get all 3 points.  When's the last time we won a league game comfortably?  United at home?

Signings for signings sake is pointless, but good players can provide an extra bit of spark that's needed for a squad that's put so much in.  I kind of do like the wait and see approach a bit and see if players like Harvey and Curtis can step up and claim their spot for long-term (Keita too, given his contract situation).  Same with Fabio earning his minutes.  That being said, there's certainly going to be some challenges with the midfield, especially with injuries and age.  Upfront should be ok once Darwin settles in and Jota is back (hopefully Bobby has some more magic left in him).

I do wish we finished off the quadruple last year (I know, I know) as it would give some time this year to work out the kinks on the next great team (so many players are either reaching the end of their contracts or at crossroads for playing time) and given the age profile, it's a great opportunity to transition.  But with that, we'll have some difficult games and results.  That's ok, but given the disappointment of last year, I know patience isn't that high.

2 points from Fulham and Palace is tough to take to start the year, but we didn't hit our stride fully until second half last year anyway.  It is what it is.

[ThoroughlyMediocre]

We've been great in 18/19, 19/20, and 21/22 in grinding out wins.  That's how we've reached all those point totals.  In 19/20, we were terrific at managing games (games like CP away, Sheff United home/away, Wolves home/away, Watford home, etc) without being amazing until we needed it (see City at home, Leicester away, etc).  It's what needed to win titles.  In 21/22, we did the same.  It's an absolutely insane run for the second half last year.  Just absolutely a winning machine.

The thing is though, we really ran out of steam due to the sheer number of games last year.  Our sheer will and game management mentality helped us get past the likes of Villa and Soton, and we did step up against City.  It was all about getting over the line when needed (came up short against Real, but they're also masters of game management and efficiency without being spectacular).

It seems like it's carried over to this season.  Stepped it up in the Community Shield against City.  But as the league kicked off, it's the same types of performances (just get over the line).  But unfortunately, the officials didn't help us with the Mitrovic penalty, and Darwin was sent off today after missing some chances.  When playing with such fine margins all the time, a couple of breaks go against you, and you can't get all 3 points.  When's the last time we won a league game comfortably?  United at home?

Signings for signings sake is pointless, but good players can provide an extra bit of spark that's needed for a squad that's put so much in.  I kind of do like the wait and see approach a bit and see if players like Harvey and Curtis can step up and claim their spot for long-term (Keita too, given his contract situation).  Same with Fabio earning his minutes.  That being said, there's certainly going to be some challenges with the midfield, especially with injuries and age.  Upfront should be ok once Darwin settles in and Jota is back (hopefully Bobby has some more magic left in him).

I do wish we finished off the quadruple last year (I know, I know) as it would give some time this year to work out the kinks on the next great team (so many players are either reaching the end of their contracts or at crossroads for playing time) and given the age profile, it's a great opportunity to transition.  But with that, we'll have some difficult games and results.  That's ok, but given the disappointment of last year, I know patience isn't that high.

2 points from Fulham and Palace is tough to take to start the year, but we didn't hit our stride fully until second half last year anyway.  It is what it is.

Good post, sums up my feelings as well.

[Haggis36]

I just don't understand how we've ended up with a clutch of midfielders who are so, so, slow, and roundly devoid of any meaningful athleticism. We must have one of the slowest and least physical midfield groups in the top half of the league? We play so high that it just feels suicidal sometimes - who is getting back to cover once we've lost the ball high up the pitch? Who is reacting quick enough to snuff it out at source?

I get that our system can be high-risk, high-reward but surely there has to be a better solution in midfield than what we've ended up with? I get it with Thiago - he's world class in just about every aspect of the game but speed/athleticism, so obviously he walks into the team. But the problem comes when you take that attitude to every midfield position, and the likes of Henderson, Milner, Jones, and arguably the current version of Fabinho just aren't offering enough to mitigate their lack of athleticism and mobility, either individually or collectively.

We can't be here saying "he needs legs around him" about ALL of our midfield options. Diaz and Elliott each got through more defensive work individually than Fab/Milner/Henderson did collectively today and though Elliott played in midfield, he is ostensibly an attacker. Or at least it'd be nice if we could let him be - we sort of need it.

[Gifted Right Foot]

I do wonder if it's because we're so open at the back all the time, no matter the score.  Teams always get very decent chances against us, and it's usually down to individual brilliance from our defenders or keeper that prevents those chances being taken.

We're an amazing team, one of the best ever, but I can't help but feel that we could be even better if we just learned to tighten things up.

We give these teams an easy out.  Even if they don't score it helps them relieve pressure.

[Clint Eastwood]

The team needs time to learn how to play with Nunez. Far too many long balls and early crosses. We've always been a patient team in attack, but even when we were in good positions to carry on attacking we'd rush it. Hardly ever see us shoot from range, and then Virgil hit one from the half-way line. Trent, Nunez, Salah also having rash long-range attempts. I was hoping we'd cut that out at half time, then within 15 seconds of the second half Phillips lumps it up to Nunez.

We looked more fluid when he came off, because we started playing our natural game.

[Knight]

I just don't understand how we've ended up with a clutch of midfielders who are so, so, slow, and roundly devoid of any meaningful athleticism. We must have one of the slowest and least physical midfield groups in the top half of the league? We play so high that it just feels suicidal sometimes - who is getting back to cover once we've lost the ball high up the pitch? Who is reacting quick enough to snuff it out at source?

I get that our system can be high-risk, high-reward but surely there has to be a better solution in midfield than what we've ended up with? I get it with Thiago - he's world class in just about every aspect of the game but speed/athleticism, so obviously he walks into the team. But the problem comes when you take that attitude to every midfield position, and the likes of Henderson, Milner, Jones, and arguably the current version of Fabinho just aren't offering enough to mitigate their lack of athleticism and mobility, either individually or collectively.

We can't be here saying "he needs legs around him" about ALL of our midfield options. Diaz and Elliott each got through more defensive work individually than Fab/Milner/Henderson did collectively today and though Elliott played in midfield, he is ostensibly an attacker. Or at least it'd be nice if we could let him be - we sort of need it.

Yes. This is the squad planning issue. We’re so far from even having the options to play a quintessential ‘Klopp’ midfield it’s untrue. And Elliot was great today and he’s a much better option at RCM than Henderson but even if he isn’t particularly athletic.

[tubby]

The team needs time to learn how to play with Nunez. Far too many long balls and early crosses. We've always been a patient team in attack, but even when we were in good positions to carry on attacking we'd rush it. Hardly ever see us shoot from range, and then Virgil hit one from the half-way line. Trent, Nunez, Salah also having rash long-range attempts. I was hoping we'd cut that out at half time, then within 15 seconds of the second half Phillips lumps it up to Nunez.

We looked more fluid when he came off, because we started playing our natural game.

We've always reverted to long balls and cross spamming under Klopp when we've struggled to break a team down.  We've never really ever played through the middle, just filled it with workhorses.  That changed a bit with Thiago, but now we've lost the athleticism we once had as well.

[crewlove]

Were we really that good at managing games last season? I feel like we had many moments relying on defence or Alisson to bail as out. We eventually did got it over the line but it was far from calmly managing the game as in 18/19.

I said it once and will say it again. I feel like last season never ended and 22/23 is an extension of 21/22. Today is on Nunez to huge extent but systematically I felt like watching the same game. We created few chances that whether Nunez or Salah should have scored but we were playing so high up the pitch that it would be pretty bad if we didn't. Now that we have really low athleticism in our midfield is way harder to come back and stop counter attacks. Something really bad happened with planning our midfield and I don't really think you can solve it without moves on the transfer market unfortunately.

[afc tukrish]

We've always reverted to long balls and cross spamming

How does one spam a cross? 

Are there viral crosses?

[Clint Eastwood]

We've always reverted to long balls and cross spamming under Klopp when we've struggled to break a team down.  We've never really ever played through the middle, just filled it with workhorses.  That changed a bit with Thiago, but now we've lost the athleticism we once had as well.

But this was in the first half, when we we’re cutting through Palace quite easily.

[Haggis36]

Yes. This is the squad planning issue. We’re so far from even having the options to play a quintessential ‘Klopp’ midfield it’s untrue. And Elliot was great today and he’s a much better option at RCM than Henderson but even if he isn’t particularly athletic.

Elliott looks faster than he ever has for us and crucially his reactions and speed over short distances are quick, which is really promising. The slightly worry I had playing him in midfield was whether it left us too open. Ironically I didn't expect us to look too open in spite of Elliott (who was fantastic offensively and defensively), rather than because of him. Regardless, in any midfield combination you want him in and around the box, not lugging it up and down the pitch covering because the other midfielders don't have the legs for it.

This might just be a slow-start or a blip in form for Fab but he is and always has been on the slow side. It requires an element of compromise, but it feels like we've gone way too far in the other direction and the players that are supposed to be shoring up that area aren't offering much offensively or defensively anymore, Thiago notwithstanding.

[Knight]

You simply cannot be playing Milner as the legs of the midfield whilst Elliot does more creating and Fabinho sits. That. Will. Not. Work. He’s 36.

[cdav]

Score our chances early and things become easier to manage, thats pretty much the top and bottom of it. We've not been great but should have won both our matches so far

Some more stability in the team will help if we can get some players back this week

[BobPaisley3]

We've always reverted to long balls and cross spamming under Klopp when we've struggled to break a team down.  We've never really ever played through the middle, just filled it with workhorses.  That changed a bit with Thiago, but now we've lost the athleticism we once had as well.

Yes but there was a sense of variety. Get it wide, work a triangle, underlap from the full back, central midfielder on the outside. Today it was get it wide and sling it in a lot of the time. Against Palace that’s not going to work too often and so it proved, particularly when the main target of the crosses went off after an hour.

[Dave McCoy]

We had 17 shots in the first half. Nunez had 5 shots before he got sent off. Generally speaking our attack is fine. More than fine even, wouldn't doubt we'll be top of the xG table as things stand. The goals will come, they always do.

The issue is we are giving up chances in our defensive half that are right now at a bottom half of the table level. We ended up 2nd in xG conceded last year but way off ManC's performance and right now are trending even worse. This started towards the end of last season though where we were conceding about 1xG per game for the last stretch. At some point we need to either ask our current players to defend less or get different players that can do what Klopp wants them to do. Long term this defensive issue will be more damaging to beating ManC to the title than these two draws.

[Dree]

You simply cannot be playing Milner as the legs of the midfield whilst Elliot does more creating and Fabinho sits. That. Will. Not. Work. He’s 36.

It’s crazy. We got away with it late last season playing Milner but it leaves Fabinho with so much work especially as we turn the ball over more.

[Chris~]

We had 17 shots in the first half. Nunez had 5 shots before he got sent off. Generally speaking our attack is fine. More than fine even, wouldn't doubt we'll be top of the xG table as things stand. The goals will come, they always do.

The issue is we are giving up chances in our defensive half that are right now at a bottom half of the table level. We ended up 2nd in xG conceded last year but way off ManC's performance and right now are trending even worse. This started towards the end of last season though where we were conceding about 1xG per game for the last stretch. At some point we need to either ask our current players to defend less or get different players that can do what Klopp wants them to do. Long term this defensive issue will be more damaging to beating ManC to the title than these two draws.

I think Diaz and then a kind of knock on effect as well of going Nunez and Elliott, if we do when he's back, means we can't ask a lot of players to do the same same thing, even if they were physically in their prime. the newer players just interpret their roles/potions different say the classic 18-20.side.

Diaz is way better suited to sitting wide and dribbling in then making off ball runs inside like Mane was or say Jota would be. Nunez isn't going to and we shouldn't want him to get on the ball around midfield like Firmino does.or Mane did end of last season. And to compensate for that you probably need your centre mids/8's more aggressively up the pitch. Elliott also plays super aggressive high and wide compared to others so kind of feels like we've trying to somewhat we did in 18-20, but with the midfield being way more aggresive in attack.


Said it in the pre-match thread but given the mix of players I really didn't think we needed Robertson bombing on. Diaz and Milner are already going to be pushed up and wide. Not sure it stops the goal today, Fabinho just over committed and left us nearly 4vs 2, but going forward it may help us retain possession and stop.counters a bit better

We didn't seem to really try anything too different in preseason and I'd be surprised if we suddenly made a big change like keeping a full back more reserved without plenty training time though