Author Topic: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)  (Read 496466 times)

Offline Macred

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https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20170622/283351882155883

Some reports in press today re. PL piloting safe standing

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West Brom have offered to trial safe standing.

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Hats off to West Brom - glad they realise it's what the fans want.
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Offline dudleyred

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Shrewsbury will be the first it seems to put safe standing in - big first step

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Shrewsbury will be the first it seems to put safe standing in - big first step
To be fair, at Shrewsbury the fans change ends at half time rather than the players, so it's not much of a trial
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Good to hear the anfield wrap stay fully behind safe standing I think that the lock up seat saying with barriers has to be the safest I have seen.

Do we think LFC could wait for a few seasons before embarking on such a project or if West Bromwich Albion make a success of it then for it happen sooner not forgotting the Hillsborough support groups of course?
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Offline andy07

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Good to hear the anfield wrap stay fully behind safe standing I think that the lock up seat saying with barriers has to be the safest I have seen.

Do we think LFC could wait for a few seasons before embarking on such a project or if West Bromwich Albion make a success of it then for it happen sooner not forgotting the Hillsborough support groups of course?

I think it will happen but only after other clubs have introduced it and it has shown to be successful.  There needs to be some solid (working in practice)evidence to show that safe standing 2017 is a million miles away from the death trap terraces of the 80s.  Not sure what this would mean in terms of ratio standing/sitting.  I am sure that Celtic do 1:1 so no increase in numbers but a reduction in cost which would be a disincentive for the owners.
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I think it will happen but only after other clubs have introduced it and it has shown to be successful. There needs to be some solid (working in practice)evidence to show that safe standing 2017 is a million miles away from the death trap terraces of the 80s.  Not sure what this would mean in terms of ratio standing/sitting.  I am sure that Celtic do 1:1 so no increase in numbers but a reduction in cost which would be a disincentive for the owners.
I think it will only ever happen untill Liverpool Football Club interface with their fans, and ask the opinion of current match going people.


The HFSG have their opinion.   They don't represent the entire fanbase.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 08:19:47 pm by Bigly Red Richie »

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To be fair, at Shrewsbury the fans change ends at half time rather than the players, so it's not much of a trial

What?  :o I know I'm missing a joke here, I just don't know what it is.
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What?  :o I know I'm missing a joke here, I just don't know what it is.

At the old Shrewsbury ground you used to be able to walk between three of the stands in the ground

Wasn't uncommon to have a spec behind the away goal both halves

Regardless Shrewsbury isn't a proof of concept. It's more a test case for parts of the legislation. Plenty of clubs have proved the concept in Europe as we know

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Wasn't just Shrewsbury, you used to be able to do that a bit closer to home too - at Prenton Park.
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Wasn't just Shrewsbury, you used to be able to do that a bit closer to home too - at Prenton Park.

Apparently this was once achievable at Anfield (pre 1960s) in the days of the paddocks on either side of the pitch.
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Offline andy07

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I think it will only ever happen untill Liverpool Football Club interface with their fans, and ask the opinion of current match going people.


The HFSG have their opinion.   They don't represent the entire fanbase.

Indeed, The HFSG is entitled to its opinion but is unrepresentative of large numbers of match going fans, including many (me included) who were in Sheffield on that fateful day.
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Indeed, The HFSG is entitled to its opinion but is unrepresentative of large numbers of match going fans, including many (me included) who were in Sheffield on that fateful day.


I see the reasons for safe standing and think that 1:1 in safe standing is almost certainly the safest way to watch a game unless of course everyone sits down. The bit I can't get past though is being willing to trust the authorities again. To trust that they will act properly, monitor the fans properly and to take action if areas become overcrowded.

You only have to look at the Grenfell Tower Fire to see that far too often in this Country that people in power turn a blind eye to safety and fail to act.

With that in mind is it really time to abandon the inbuilt safety margin that all seater Stadiums provide, even if that is indirectly.
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Offline PaulD

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I am OK with the thought that LFC would have the oversight and be the guardian of safe standing at Anfield.

Offline Anfield89

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I see the reasons for safe standing and think that 1:1 in safe standing is almost certainly the safest way to watch a game unless of course everyone sits down. The bit I can't get past though is being willing to trust the authorities again. To trust that they will act properly, monitor the fans properly and to take action if areas become overcrowded.

You only have to look at the Grenfell Tower Fire to see that far too often in this Country that people in power turn a blind eye to safety and fail to act.

With that in mind is it really time to abandon the inbuilt safety margin that all seater Stadiums provide, even if that is indirectly.

They are failing at the moment. They turn a blind eye to the mass standing that goes on in all seated areas which is much more dangerous than it would be if a rail would be put in.

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Looking at the rail seating, is there not a safety issue with it?

In the event of a fire (or similar), you would surely be forced to go along the row rather than having the ability to climb over rows of seats..?

Is that a valid concern?
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Looking at the rail seating, is there not a safety issue with it?

In the event of a fire (or similar), you would surely be forced to go along the row rather than having the ability to climb over rows of seats..?

Is that a valid concern?

One of the main considerations of the green guide is the time it takes to evacuate each area. The capacity of a stand is dictated by being able to evacuate the stand within the required time. So in theory the fact that you would have to evacuate a stand horizontally at first would be taken into account.

The problem is that only works if the stewards and Police ensure that fans are spread evenly across the terrace.

They are failing at the moment. They turn a blind eye to the mass standing that goes on in all seated areas which is much more dangerous than it would be if a rail would be put in.

Isn't that the point though, the Stewards and Police are unwilling or unable to control whether fans sit or stand which is much simpler than controlling the fan density of an entire terrace.
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Offline Anfield89

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One of the main considerations of the green guide is the time it takes to evacuate each area. The capacity of a stand is dictated by being able to evacuate the stand within the required time. So in theory the fact that you would have to evacuate a stand horizontally at first would be taken into account.

The problem is that only works if the stewards and Police ensure that fans are spread evenly across the terrace.

Isn't that the point though, the Stewards and Police are unwilling or unable to control whether fans sit or stand which is much simpler than controlling the fan density of an entire terrace.

No it's isn't simpler. You can't make 12,000 people sit down. You can make sure individuals go to their correct spot. There are a lot of season ticket holders in the Kop who won't want to move so keep it at 1:1 and it's a much smaller job to Make sure a few groups return to their area.

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Offline CentenaryBoy

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Indeed, The HFSG is entitled to its opinion but is unrepresentative of large numbers of match going fans, including many (me included) who were in Sheffield on that fateful day.

I just find it totally impossible to believe that the club would go against the wishes of the HFSG on this issue of all issues. If they remain opposed, safe standing will not happen at Anfield. You're going to have to convince them if you want to see it happen because, whether it's right or wrong, they effectively have a veto over the decision.

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I just find it totally impossible to believe that the club would go against the wishes of the HFSG on this issue of all issues. If they remain opposed, safe standing will not happen at Anfield. You're going to have to convince them if you want to see it happen because, whether it's right or wrong, they effectively have a veto over the decision.

I agree entirely, it is going to be a slow process but we will get there in the end.
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Offline Billy Elliot

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Looking at the rail seating, is there not a safety issue with it?

In the event of a fire (or similar), you would surely be forced to go along the row rather than having the ability to climb over rows of seats..?

Is that a valid concern?

I imagine that in the case of an evacuation for any kind of reason, it would be safer if people didn't try to scramble over seats and the barrier would encourage people to leave in a more orderly way.

SOS's consultation included independent safety experts (if I remember correctly) and I imagine it would have an expert opinion on it (especially with terrorist threats).

I think it is a valid concern though and I'm definitely not an expert, so my assumptions might be a load of shite.  I won't be able to make the closed meeting, and don't fancy standing up at an open meeting.

It's a good point and something I've never heard mentioned before, I've just asked whether it was considered during the consultation with safety bods.  I'll post back when I get a reply.
 
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Worth a listen to TAW "City Talk" show

another informative piece on safe standing on the City Talk show (Gareth speaks to Jon Darch, a leading campaigner on safe standing who has worked closely with the Football Supporters’ Federation). Very good stuff.


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With that in mind is it really time to abandon the inbuilt safety margin that all seater Stadiums provide, even if that is indirectly.
Like others, I believe that the current situation, ad hoc standing in seated areas, is more dangerous than rail seating.

Of course HFSG should be consulted. But they are a Hillsborough group, not experts on safe standing or representative of match going fans. It would be interesting to know how many of their members have attended a safe standing presentation and how many are still against.

However, I do accept the sensitivities of this . I realise that others will have to pioneer this, and we will follow. As in stadium redevelopment, we will be well behind the curve.


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Jay McKenna on SOS debate progress in TAW.

https://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2017/07/liverpool-and-the-safe-standing-debate-its-time-we-talked-about-rail-seating/

and Club ask to respect HFSG majority in the Echo.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-safe-standing-rail-seating-13344411

Not sure the two are linked as the SOS debate on the position they'll take is in general, not at Anfield. 

Edit - the Echo article is bollocks.

"It came as Liverpool supporters union Spirit of Shankly (SOS) holds private meetings on Tuesday with Hillsborough families to discuss the issue of so-called safe standing."   No, it's a private meeting with all families, not just the HFSG families and it's also open to anybody else that was there that day.

"That precedes a public meeting on Saturday at the Liner Hotel in Liverpool city centre to establish whether SOS will take a position for or against the re-introduction of some form of standing at Anfield."  No, it's about SOS stance on safe standing in general, not at Anfield.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 03:18:27 pm by stephen075 »
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Well said, Stephen.
It is any wonder that views get 'distorted' when the local newspaper can't even report the facts correctly (do I hear you say, 'no change there then' ?)

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I attended the meeting on Tuesday.  There were around 50 present with 15 or so expressing their views.  Discussion was generally around safety with a comparison between the relative safety of rail seating vs the existing practice of standing in front of seats both on The Kop and elsewhere.  I suggest that anyone interested attends on Saturday.
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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1590 on: September 8, 2017, 08:19:58 pm »
Listened to the SOS on TAW and the massive majority of both sections of the survey were almost exactly correlated at 85% or so.  SOS would then work on what they want to do about this over the next months rather than immediately badgering LFC to accept Safe Standing.

Should be welcome news for anyone interested in progress for the return of Standing that this time is Safe.
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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1591 on: February 12, 2018, 03:17:14 pm »
Going back to the original comments from this thread, I believe it’s only the financial implications of safe standing that are preventing clubs from being more enthusiastic about its installation.
So purely for fun and to maybe promote some intelligent discussion, I did some simple maths......
But before I start I must state that as an ex STH of the ‘real’ Kop of the 80s & 90s, I would LOVE to see SAFE standing implemented.
Using the Kop as an example, because I think this is where it would most beneficial, and also rounding up numbers just to make the maths simple.....
Let’s assume we decided to convert the lower HALF of the Kop to safe standing........
The Kop seat pitch is about 600mm...but Safe Standing seat pitch needs to be about 800mm to allow 2 people to stand one behind the other in I seat space.
Here’s the maths........
50 rows with 600mm pitch  x 125 seats = 6000 seats
38 rail seat rows with 800mm pitch = 4750 seats.
BUT 38 rail seats converted to safe standing (2:1 ratio 2 people occupying I seat space) = 9500 spectators.
6000 seats @ £35 = £210,000
9500 standing @ £25 = £237,500 (+£27,500 x 20 = £500k per season)
So even though the Kop capacity increases the financial benefits per season would not be very big, and would probably take 10 years to recover (not allowing for extra pies and programs!)
European nights would not necessarily see a reduction of gate receipts however. A seat with 800mm legroom could be marketed as ‘Premium’ seat.......
European night 4750 PREMIUM seats @ £45 = £214,000
My maths are crude..... my knowledge of club marketing strategies non existent.....But who would not want a safe standing Kop with more flag waving STANDING supporters paying £25 ....... 



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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1592 on: February 12, 2018, 04:55:45 pm »
The numbers the clubs will be interested in will involve total matchday spend, rather than just tickets. If fans are going to buy a pint, a programme and a pie, all of which are sold at a huge markup, not to mention popping into the club shop for a scarf or something, then the taking per head will be higher than the simple numbers suggest.

On the flip side, the 2:1 conversion looks unrealistic. Bear in mind that you also need more/wider walkways between the rows and more exits, and you lose a lot of seating (or standing) space.
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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1593 on: February 12, 2018, 06:55:24 pm »
Going back to the original comments from this thread, I believe it’s only the financial implications of safe standing that are preventing clubs from being more enthusiastic about its installation.
So purely for fun and to maybe promote some intelligent discussion, I did some simple maths......
But before I start I must state that as an ex STH of the ‘real’ Kop of the 80s & 90s, I would LOVE to see SAFE standing implemented.
Using the Kop as an example, because I think this is where it would most beneficial, and also rounding up numbers just to make the maths simple.....
Let’s assume we decided to convert the lower HALF of the Kop to safe standing........
The Kop seat pitch is about 600mm...but Safe Standing seat pitch needs to be about 800mm to allow 2 people to stand one behind the other in I seat space.
Here’s the maths........
50 rows with 600mm pitch  x 125 seats = 6000 seats
38 rail seat rows with 800mm pitch = 4750 seats.
BUT 38 rail seats converted to safe standing (2:1 ratio 2 people occupying I seat space) = 9500 spectators.
6000 seats @ £35 = £210,000
9500 standing @ £25 = £237,500 (+£27,500 x 20 = £500k per season)
So even though the Kop capacity increases the financial benefits per season would not be very big, and would probably take 10 years to recover (not allowing for extra pies and programs!)
European nights would not necessarily see a reduction of gate receipts however. A seat with 800mm legroom could be marketed as ‘Premium’ seat.......
European night 4750 PREMIUM seats @ £45 = £214,000
My maths are crude..... my knowledge of club marketing strategies non existent.....But who would not want a safe standing Kop with more flag waving STANDING supporters paying £25 ....... 



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I think most people would want a (safe-)standing kop. The row depth for standing is actually 280mm (per the Green Book guidelines). On that basis you could double the capacity of the kop, if it were not for a couple of things:

1. More exits would be required to evacuate the extra capacity,
2. On the whole, people have got bigger ie., they take up more space,

For these reasons it's generally accepted that the increase in capacity would be about 1.8:1 ie., the capacity of the kop would be about 22,000.

The other assumption is that no-one wants to pay full price to stand (even though they stand anyway...) Allowing a total spend just over half to stand (including food and beverage), the overall income would increase by about 20%. This may or may not cover the cost of the rail seating and putting it up for CL games and taking it down again, increased security, new exits etc etc.

So far so good but the club won't want to do this at the expense of filling the rest of the ground. It would have to be sure that it can sell a 60k stadium out at full price before adding another 10,000 at (just over) half price.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 06:57:20 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1594 on: February 12, 2018, 07:55:44 pm »
I think most people would want a (safe-)standing kop. The row depth for standing is actually 280mm (per the Green Book guidelines). On that basis you could double the capacity of the kop, if it were not for a couple of things:

1. More exits would be required to evacuate the extra capacity,
2. On the whole, people have got bigger ie., they take up more space,

For these reasons it's generally accepted that the increase in capacity would be about 1.8:1 ie., the capacity of the kop would be about 22,000.

The other assumption is that no-one wants to pay full price to stand (even though they stand anyway...) Allowing a total spend just over half to stand (including food and beverage), the overall income would increase by about 20%. This may or may not cover the cost of the rail seating and putting it up for CL games and taking it down again, increased security, new exits etc etc.

So far so good but the club won't want to do this at the expense of filling the rest of the ground. It would have to be sure that it can sell a 60k stadium out at full price before adding another 10,000 at (just over) half price.

The increased exits would also actually lower our capacity for CL games.
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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1595 on: February 13, 2018, 01:05:59 am »
The numbers the clubs will be interested in will involve total matchday spend, rather than just tickets. If fans are going to buy a pint, a programme and a pie, all of which are sold at a huge markup, not to mention popping into the club shop for a scarf or something, then the taking per head will be higher than the simple numbers suggest.

On the flip side, the 2:1 conversion looks unrealistic. Bear in mind that you also need more/wider walkways between the rows and more exits, and you lose a lot of seating (or standing) space.
As I said........
Current seating has a seat pitch (the distance front-to-back) of about 600mm. Safe standing rail seat requires a pitch of 800mm! Hence your current 50 rows of seats reduces to 38 rows.


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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1596 on: February 13, 2018, 01:27:36 am »
As I said........
Current seating has a seat pitch (the distance front-to-back) of about 600mm. Safe standing rail seat requires a pitch of 800mm! Hence your current 50 rows of seats reduces to 38 rows.


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And as I said, you also need to add wider walkways and additional exits. Why are we saying things twice BTW?
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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1597 on: February 13, 2018, 03:40:47 am »
The increased exits would also actually lower our capacity for CL games.

The determining factor is evacuation time for which there are other factors but on the face of it, yes, it would.

Nevertheless, the loss of revenue on the smaller number of seats should be factored into the increased revenue from the larger standing capacity.


As I said........
Current seating has a seat pitch (the distance front-to-back) of about 600mm. Safe standing rail seat requires a pitch of 800mm! Hence your current 50 rows of seats reduces to 38 rows.


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There are no guidelines for safe standing in the UK or how much space is required front to back (other than the agreements reached at Celtic...).

Guidelines still applied in England and Wales for traditional standing have a minimum step of 280mm for an existing stand. At a given minimum height of step, this is deemed a safe pitch with barriers at a certain distance. As it happens, the Kop can accommodate traditional standing in terms of the basic structure, steps, angles but not of course barriers. Rail seating has barriers every row of seats or every 2 rows of standing and hence is inherently safer than traditional standing.



The UK Green Book also recommends a minimum clearway of 305mm in front of any seat (in the down position in this case), which with a seat size of 245mm would require 600mm step depth (including 50mm frame). At Celtic, the existing stand happened to be 700mm and the seat size and clearway were agreed accordingly.

So I don't know where you're getting the step depth from but if rail seating required a step of 800mm, you would be talking about re-building the Kop, which would defeat the economics of the situation by a country mile.

Two standing rows per seat:

« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 04:58:28 am by Peter McGurk »

Offline Lolo

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1598 on: February 13, 2018, 10:46:45 am »
Just to clarify here...... I’ve never mentioned ‘steps’ or ‘depth’. I’m talking about the seat PITCH..... the distance between one seat and the seat IN FRONT of or BEHIND it!
The 800mm comes from recommendations on the Safe Standing Roadshow website.
Yes the Kop base would need to be dug out and a new one laid with steps 400mm front-to-back by whatever depth (HEIGHT) they need to be to get the required gradient (sorry but I can’t do the maths on my mobile for that dimension).


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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1599 on: February 13, 2018, 11:01:22 am »
If the Kop has a gradient of 23degrees..... 400mm x 169.6mm steps would be required.  If it’s not 23degrees, then the height will be slightly different...


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