Topic: Lampard named Derby Manager

[WhereAngelsPlay]

There are thousands of coaches up and down the country that spend countless hours honing their skills and developing their expertise that care. This philistinism about a complex and sophisticated job is just bizarre, as if genuine expertise and mastery of the skills involved is secondary to the celebrity front man.

A 'celebrity' who has been in & around professional football all of his life.

Anybody can become a football coach but not everybody is cut out to be a professional manager.

[vagabond]

A 'celebrity' who has been in & around professional football all of his life.

So how does that work, does he pick up the skills through osmosis?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

So how does that work, does he pick up the skills through osmosis?

So you don't think that he has picked up any skills ?

[vagabond]

So you don't think that he has picked up any skills ?

He probably has. But it was probably incidental, and down to his own curiosity if he had any, that he did. The coaches are busy teaching him what to do on the pitch, if he learnt how to coach from them then it would have been on his own time. That may have been the case, but the real question is this: is he as skilled as somebody that has spent 10,000 hours over a decade learning how to coach?

[Gerry Attrick]

There are thousands of coaches up and down the country that spend countless hours honing their skills and developing their expertise that care. This philistinism about a complex and sophisticated job is just bizarre, as if genuine expertise and mastery of the skills involved is secondary to the celebrity front man.

Being a great coach ≠ being a great manager though. How many of those coaches that have spent countless hours honing their skills do you think will know how to handle the egos and personalities of about 2 dozen professional footballers? Is Zidane one of the best coaches in the last 3 decades? Almost certainly not, is he one of the best managers in the last 3 decades? Almost certainly.

I've read that Steve McClaren is one of the finest training ground coaches some players have ever worked with but he's absolutely hopeless at doing managerial stuff.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

He probably has. But it was probably incidental, and down to his own curiosity if he had any, that he did. The coaches are busy teaching him what to do on the pitch, if he learnt how to coach from them then it would have been on his own time. That may have been the case, but the real question is this: is he as skilled as somebody that has spent 10,000 hours over a decade learning how to coach?

You don't know because you have no idea how much he picked up throughout his life,a life that started with him shadowing his old man & uncle around.

Like I said knowing how to coach by taking courses and daily training sessions does not mean that you will be a decent manager,dosn't matter if you've done 100 or 10,000 hours.

[The North Bank]

In the end he ll be judged by results, I dont see why hes not entitled to a chance to show what he can do.

[vagabond]

In the end he ll be judged by results, I dont see why hes not entitled to a chance to show what he can do.

Honestly don't wish him any ill. But I do feel sorry for all the people that work hard and never get the opportunity because the old boy's club is so entitled.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

In the end he ll be judged by results, I dont see why hes not entitled to a chance to show what he can do.

Because Bob Bullington from Widnes has been coaching kids since 1975 & was never given the chance to manage a pro club.

[vagabond]

Being a great coach ≠ being a great manager though.

This is a fair point. But it's not like he's walking into the ego-filled dressing room of Real Madrid. It's a championship level job.

The other point is this: management is not the same job as coaching, but I'd rather trust a coach that has mastered the difficult and technical job of coaching to learn how to man-manage on the job, than trust a man manager to learn how to coach on the job.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Because Bob Bullington from Widnes has been coaching kids since 1975 & was never given the chance to manage a pro club.

The point is valid - if you're a hard working coach with no major top league playing career, but a great track record as a coach or manager, you still stand less chance of getting a job than if you played in the Premier League, played for England, but have never managed a team in your life. It's not about "Frank Lampard". It's about the system.

[Gerry Attrick]

This is a fair point. But it's not like he's walking into the ego-filled dressing room of Real Madrid. It's a championship level job.

The other point is this: management is not the same job as coaching, but I'd rather trust a coach that has mastered the difficult and technical job of coaching to learn how to man-manage on the job, than trust a man manager to learn how to coach on the job.

He's still working with professional footballers, many of which have played in the Premier League and international teams.

Great managers don't need to be great coaches in my opinion, they just need to recognise their weaknesses and delegate responsibility. Problems only arise when useless coaches think they're great ones and don't surround themselves with the right people. I have nothing to back this up but I very much doubt the likes of Ferguson, Mourinho etc conducted loads of sessions themselves.

[PhaseOfPlay]

A 'celebrity' who has been in & around professional football all of his life.

Anybody can become a football coach but not everybody is cut out to be a professional manager.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

There are thousands of coaches up and down the country that spend countless hours honing their skills and developing their expertise that care. This philistinism about a complex and sophisticated job is just bizarre, as if genuine expertise and mastery of the skills involved is secondary to the celebrity front man.

you do know that being a good coach on the training ground doesn’t mean you can run the thing, derby of all clubs should know this. You can be maths teacher for 40 years but be no way qualified to be school principal whereas someone who has been one for 10 years can do a great job.

Great managers don't need to be great coaches in my opinion, they just need to recognise their weaknesses and delegate responsibility. Problems only arise when useless coaches think they're great ones and don't surround themselves with the right people. I have nothing to back this up but I very much doubt the likes of Ferguson, Mourinho etc conducted loads of sessions themselves.

They also need to command the respect of the players which lampard will, a large part of zidanes success was that he could command their respect that coaches who didn’t have great playing careers like Mourinho and rafa couldn’t

And I think you are generally right that most of Ferguson’s sessions were done by his assistant or someone like that Dutch guy who managed Fulham for a bit (and they loved him as a coach there but he utterly failed as a number one)

[WhereAngelsPlay]

You can giggle as much as you want fella,doesn't alter the fact that anybody CAN take their badges.

[The North Bank]

The point is valid - if you're a hard working coach with no major top league playing career, but a great track record as a coach or manager, you still stand less chance of getting a job than if you played in the Premier League, played for England, but have never managed a team in your life. It's not about "Frank Lampard". It's about the system.

Having a great career as a player can open the door for you, but you still have to walk through it, or youll end up a managerial joke like Shearer, Neville, Barnes, Ince. None of those will work as managers again, the same will happen to Lampard and Gerrard if they dont get results.

[PhaseOfPlay]

You can giggle as much as you want fella,doesn't alter the fact that anybody CAN take their badges.

So anyone off the street can walk onto the A License, is that what you're saying?

I'm not laughing at you, I'm just not sure you know how the process works.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

The point is valid - if you're a hard working coach with no major top league playing career, but a great track record as a coach or manager, you still stand less chance of getting a job than if you played in the Premier League, played for England, but have never managed a team in your life. It's not about "Frank Lampard". It's about the system.

But Derby have given coaches a chance.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

So anyone off the street can walk onto the A License, is that what you're saying?

I'm not laughing at you, I'm just not sure you know how the process works.

You brought A license into this but yes if you have the money you can work your way through the FA license system.

Or are you claiming that you need to know the secret handshake before the FA will take your money ?

[PhaseOfPlay]

Having a great career as a player can open the door for you, but you still have to walk through it, or youll end up a managerial joke like Shearer, Neville, Barnes, Ince. None of those will work as managers again, the same will happen to Lampard and Gerrard if they dont get results.

Absolutely agree. Again, my point isn't "Frank Lampard". It's that the FA make a big deal about the coaching pathway, getting the licences, putting your time in, and then throw all of that out of the window for their former stars who regularly get managers jobs without even having the correct licences in the first place. But they wouldn't usually extend that courtesy to Barry Manager who has managed for 10 years and had teams over-performing. And chairmen don't know any differently, nor do they care, because big names equals big ticket sales (until they have to sack "big name" because "big name" never served any apprenticeship anywhere and isn't sure how to handle players less talented than themselves).

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Absolutely agree. Again, my point isn't "Frank Lampard". It's that the FA make a big deal about the coaching pathway, getting the licences, putting your time in, and then throw all of that out of the window for their former stars who regularly get managers jobs without even having the correct licences in the first place. But they wouldn't usually extend that courtesy to Barry Manager who has managed for 10 years and had teams over-performing. And chairmen don't know any differently, nor do they care, because big names equals big ticket sales (until they have to sack "big name" because "big name" never served any apprenticeship anywhere and isn't sure how to handle players less talented than themselves).

so what’s your solution, how would you fix this?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Absolutely agree. Again, my point isn't "Frank Lampard". It's that the FA make a big deal about the coaching pathway, getting the licences, putting your time in, and then throw all of that out of the window for their former stars who regularly get managers jobs without even having the correct licences in the first place. But they wouldn't usually extend that courtesy to Barry Manager who has managed for 10 years and had teams over-performing. And chairmen don't know any differently, nor do they care, because big names equals big ticket sales (until they have to sack "big name" because "big name" never served any apprenticeship anywhere and isn't sure how to handle players less talented than themselves).

I would say the contact book and chances of getting loan players from top clubs is equally as important as the name.

[PhaseOfPlay]

You brought A license into this but yes if you have the money you can work your way through the FA license system.

Or are you claiming that you need to know the secret handshake before the FA will take your money ?

No, I'm saying there's a lot you have to do to get the badges. For most of us - start at the grassroots courses, PASS them, get onto the FA courses, PASS them, get onto the UEFA track, PASS those, then become professionally employed in the FA professional pyramid in order to get the PRO Licence that allows you to coach anywhere. Whereas an ex-international can bypass all of that and go straight to the UEFA B, will almost always have their hand held through the course, be given a pass (I've seen it happen), then go to the "A" which, again, they'll be walked through, and then they'll go onto the Pro licence, often without having the required team to manage which is usually a prerequisite. Sometimes, they can even get employed WITHOUT having the required "A" or "Pro" licences.

So the correct statement is - if you are a normal Joe, have time, money, work ethic, and the knowledge of the game and man-management to PASS the courses, then you can get your badges. If you're an ex-England player, you can bypass most of it.

Which is why I have a tonne of respect for Stuart Pearce, because he actually bothered to get his grassroots certificates and go through the whole system as it was then. That's someone who respects the game.

[The North Bank]

Absolutely agree. Again, my point isn't "Frank Lampard". It's that the FA make a big deal about the coaching pathway, getting the licences, putting your time in, and then throw all of that out of the window for their former stars who regularly get managers jobs without even having the correct licences in the first place. But they wouldn't usually extend that courtesy to Barry Manager who has managed for 10 years and had teams over-performing. And chairmen don't know any differently, nor do they care, because big names equals big ticket sales (until they have to sack "big name" because "big name" never served any apprenticeship anywhere and isn't sure how to handle players less talented than themselves).

The fans want the big name too, the ticket sales are high because the fans get excited by having their club linked to a big name. Derby and Rangers fans are very excited by the possibilities.

[PhaseOfPlay]

so what’s your solution, how would you fix this?

Same as it is in Spain, Germany and Italy - Lose the barriers to entry, don't treat ex-internationals as anything special, fail them if they're not up to snuff, and don't let them work until they've done the pathway. And the pathway is open and equal to all. After that, it's up to the talent of the coach/manager to help them to progress.

The issue is the Anglo federations turn the coaching pathway and the management pathway into a closed shop, for the benefit of the ex-internationals and ex-pros, and consistently ignore more talented coaches with better experience of managing players, situations, and working with less-talented teams and making them better.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

No, I'm saying there's a lot you have to do to get the badges. For most of us - start at the grassroots courses, PASS them, get onto the FA courses, PASS them, get onto the UEFA track, PASS those, then become professionally employed in the FA professional pyramid in order to get the PRO Licence that allows you to coach anywhere. Whereas an ex-international can bypass all of that and go straight to the UEFA B, will almost always have their hand held through the course, be given a pass (I've seen it happen), then go to the "A" which, again, they'll be walked through, and then they'll go onto the Pro licence, often without having the required team to manage which is usually a prerequisite. Sometimes, they can even get employed WITHOUT having the required "A" or "Pro" licences.

So the correct statement is - if you are a normal Joe, have time, money, work ethic, and the knowledge of the game and man-management to PASS the courses, then you can get your badges. If you're an ex-England player, you can bypass most of it.

Which is why I have a tonne of respect for Stuart Pearce, because he actually bothered to get his grassroots certificates and go through the whole system as it was then. That's someone who respects the game.

So my post shouldn't have really put you on your back with laughter.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Same as it is in Spain, Germany and Italy - Lose the barriers to entry, don't treat ex-internationals as anything special, fail them if they're not up to snuff, and don't let them work until they've done the pathway. And the pathway is open and equal to all. After that, it's up to the talent of the coach/manager to help them to progress.

The issue is the Anglo federations turn the coaching pathway and the management pathway into a closed shop, for the benefit of the ex-internationals and ex-pros, and consistently ignore more talented coaches with better experience of managing players, situations, and working with less-talented teams and making them better.

ZZ bent the rules and was fast tracked.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

I would say the contact book and chances of getting loan players from top clubs is equally as important as the name.

and they’re cost cutting as well where that contacts book comes into hand

So my post shouldn't have really put you on your back with laughter.

keep me out of this

[McSquared]

Seems quite naive think the best people should get the best jobs. Probably only happens in a handful of serious professions. Mostly its jobs for the boys, arse lickers and people who turn a trick

[Samie]

ZZ bent the rules and was fast tracked.

Is that the norm? You just gave an exceptional case there.   

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Same as it is in Spain, Germany and Italy - Lose the barriers to entry

As in cost, if so I totally agree

don't treat ex-internationals as anything special, fail them if they're not up to snuff, and don't let them work until they've done the pathway.

how can they stop clubs employing them? And maybe they get that treatment because with the likes of gerrard and lampard they’ve got experience in the game you can’t teach and it’s much better for the game that they’re in coaching/management than a bt sport studio?

After that, it's up to the talent of the coach/manager to help them to progress.

in reality that’s not going to happen, as a well known ex pro with a good contacts book will be far more attractive to a chairman than a similar or more able at the coaching non pro candidate

The issue is the Anglo federations turn the coaching pathway and the management pathway into a closed shop, for the benefit of the ex-internationals and ex-pros, and consistently ignore more talented coaches with better experience of managing players, situations, and working with less-talented teams and making them better.

do you not think the system is biased towards ex pros because they actually have done the job and can more easily relate to players, not so much their capability of coaching (which is a different skill)

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Is that the norm? You just gave an exceptional case there.   

Was the 1st one that popped into my head.

[CowboyKangaroo]

You can giggle as much as you want fella,doesn't alter the fact that anybody CAN take their badges.

I'm pretty sure its like Pokemon. Whenever you fail to get your badge you just run up and down in the long grass beating up animals until you feel ready to try again. And 10 year olds can beat Pokemon

[PhaseOfPlay]

ZZ bent the rules and was fast tracked.

He wasn't really. He had the "B" and the "A",, the last of which is the precursor/prerequisite to the "Pro". He just hadn't completed the "Pro". Dispensations are given out to managers/coaches who are at least signed up for the Pro Licence, because unlike the rest of the badges, the "Pro" is a "management" course that lasts a full calendar year. So as long as you are at least signed up for it, you can manage. The "A" licence involves the completion of coaching theory and focuses on the 11v11 game. The "Pro" licence deals with man-management, Media, Season planning, Recruitment, and all that other good stuff.

Here are quotes from the original complaint against ZZ:

Miguel Galan, director of Madrid-based coaching course provider Cenafe Escuelas, told EFE news agency [picked up in Marca] why he was making the official complaint.

"Zidane does not have the required qualification," Galan said. "According to all the reports, he has just a UEFA 'A' license. That is not enough to take charge of Castilla. The coaches who have the qualifications must be defended. Any person, whatever their name, must get the appropriate qualification, approved by the Ministry of Education, Culture and Sport.

"That Real Madrid is one of the most recognised institutions in the world, and Zidane one of the symbols of this sport, does not exempt them from fulfilling the regulations which apply to everyone."

That's how it should be done.

[Doc Red]

The point is valid - if you're a hard working coach with no major top league playing career, but a great track record as a coach or manager, you still stand less chance of getting a job than if you played in the Premier League, played for England, but have never managed a team in your life. It's not about "Frank Lampard". It's about the system.

Don't hate the playa hate the game.

I wonder if it's a phase  , POP.
I remember in the NBA there was a lot of clamour about there not being enough former players getting coaching jobs after they retire, and that there was a very small minority of black coaches in a sport with predominantly black players. The following decade things shifted, and there was an influx of former players coaching teams,  some were exceptional, a lot were okay, and others a complete failure. Right up until the past 5 years, former players were getting coaching jobs with high salaries without a single day of coaching experience.

Things seemed to have balanced themselves now. There are former players as coaches, and doing well, and coaches without NBA playing experience that are also doing exceptionally well. Interestingly enough, I can't think of a single successful coach that was playing in the NBA at an elite level. Might be hard to coach players to play at a standard much lower than they were used to playing, at least that's my guess.

Point is, could this be a phase? Former quality players retire and move into analysing the game behind the camera, sound smart and articulate, and start getting jobs as managers. Something I can't recall happening 10 years ago. Next phase will be sink or swim. If the likes of Gerrard and Lampard bomb in their positions, following on directly on the heels of the Neville utter failure as a manager, it could mark a shift towards younger coaches with coaching and training experiences that aren't big name former players.

In a way, and thinking 10 years from now, this might be the best thing to happen to the coaching industry. A hypothesis is created and now it's being tested.

[Skeeve]

Being a great coach ≠ being a great manager though.

Not being a great coach doesn't imply you will be a good manager either though, you just know they can't do the first half of the job and are unsure about the second.

[Gerry Attrick]

Not being a great coach doesn't imply you will be a good manager either though, you just know they can't do the first half of the job and are unsure about the second.

It's not an exact science though, you only find out by taking that chance. They've tried coaches that haven't proved to be great managers for them, so they are probably seeing if a different method can work this time. If not, I dare say they'll look for another coach and try again.

[SlowRap]

I’m often debating this question, respecting POPs view on it and relating it to my own job. One thing I was wondering on with regards to managers, (ex players vs none players or lesser players) is that I remember reading about some of the Madrid lot kicking off at Mourinho for his tactics, and the hymn was that “You never played at the highest level, so why have you got the cheek to tell me how to do my job? I’m 100 x the player you ever was.” At that level they’ll respond better to someone who has done it all at the top as a player -  because he can relate more, he’s been there, done that got the medal.

Someone can be as good a manager as possible but they’ll still fall short on the experience a player goes through. It’s similar to my job in sales – you don’t have to be the best sales person to be a good sales manager in fact there’s a mistake that happens in sales whereby they push the top sales person into management, there’s all kind of different human levels to managing a team rather than just looking after your own.

However, saying that – the best sales managers I have worked with and who I respected the most were top sales people themselves – I had sales managers who would talk the talk but when it came down to it they would be scared of the customer, they could give you the techniques to deal with pressure yet they themselves looked pressured when confronted by a problem. If I put myself into the mind-set of an elite football player, I reckon that I’d respect someone like Zidane immensely; not because he’s my manager but because he walked the walk, he won everything as a player – he knows what it takes – added to that he was arguably the best midfielder in the world and you listen to what he says as the respect he commands built on his history would be monumental. 

[CallumLFC]

Impressive so far. He's got them playing some good football.

He hasn't got any coaching experience though right? Disgrace he got the job. Experienced coaches like Clement should be getting a chance, etc, etc.

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

Picking up the right kind of players is one thing (loan or otherwise), getting them to play that way is another. Credit to him.