Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread

[macmanamanaman]

I have a genuine query regarding young attacking players (hopefully someone on these boards who has experience of the club youth system or coach in the  sunday leagues )
Just when are they deemed to be 'ready'?
For many, like Pacheco, pace is one of their main assets. It might improve slightly over a year or two of training, but after 23-24, its downhill all the way from there. Other qualities like dribbling, technique are often instinctive, or coached at an early level. The only improvements can be to physique (strength) and tactical knowledge. And the latter can only really be acquired through experience of the real thing - in a full game at the senior level. So really, whats the point in buying mediocre-to-decent attacking players of age 27+ to fill our squad and forego an opportunity to see if we really have someone who's 'got it' among our youth level players?
Like I said, especially for attackers  (strikers, wingers, AMs), the upside seems much greater than the downside.

[Pr0n]

none of them

Rafa doesn't trust young players, you've only got to look at Babel to see that and he's one of the most exciting prospects in World football and cost £10m

so what chance has some half-arsed kid from the academy got of making a 16 ?

might as well freeze this thread and re-open it in 3 years time, maybe 5, or more likely when we've got another manager

Anderson's the nearest and I can't see him even getting a game in the next 2 years

the worry is that most if not all of these lads will simply not wait until they are 22 or 23 to get a game and will move on, after all who wants to join a club at 15 or 16 (earlier for the local kids) and not play for 7 or 8 years ?

the lad at Palace, Bostock, is reported today as not wanting to go to Arsenal or Chelsea, and who can blame him, he'll probably not get a first team game for 6 or 7 years whereas at Palace he could be playing regularly in a couple of years

Are'nt you a happy camper? Babel has been getting his fair share of games, and will get more in lines with his development. For some players it's good to stay at a club where they will play.. Still have'nt heard about anyone turning us down because they thought they would'nt stand a chance in the first team. They are with us for development and we should give them the best possibilities to do so, which does'nt include playing youngsters just for the sake of it.

[a partridge in seat_5c]

Pacheco - Havent seen much of him but what i have seen is this lad has vision and skill. He was highly rated at Barca

so was Fabio "Quien comio todos las empanadas" Rochemback

[AmericanPoolFan]

By the title of the thread I thought you were a Catholic Priest

[a partridge in seat_5c]

Are'nt you a happy camper? Babel has been getting his fair share of games, and will get more in lines with his development. For some players it's good to stay at a club where they will play.. Still have'nt heard about anyone turning us down because they thought they would'nt stand a chance in the first team. They are with us for development and we should give them the best possibilities to do so, which does'nt include playing youngsters just for the sake of it.

yes, quite a happy camper, got a day off work thanks

I simply answered the question honestly

if you can't handle the answer that's your problem, go see a doctor and get some uppers

[Pr0n]

I have a genuine query regarding young attacking players (hopefully someone on these boards who has experience of the club youth system or coach in the  sunday leagues )
Just when are they deemed to be 'ready'?
For many, like Pacheco, pace is one of their main assets. It might improve slightly over a year or two of training, but after 23-24, its downhill all the way from there. Other qualities like dribbling, technique are often instinctive, or coached at an early level. The only improvements can be to physique (strength) and tactical knowledge. And the latter can only really be acquired through experience of the real thing - in a full game at the senior level. So really, whats the point in buying mediocre-to-decent attacking players of age 27+ to fill our squad and forego an opportunity to see if we really have someone who's 'got it' among our youth level players?
Like I said, especially for attackers  (strikers, wingers, AMs), the upside seems much greater than the downside.

I know a national coach of youthplayers.. and have been to his seminars/discussed this.
The point is, at the age of 15-17 (of the best players in that braket), you have no idea of how good the player will turn out to be as a senior. It's all potential. All the players in our reserves f.i. have some ability that is standing out. Some have a range of abilities. The main things one can expect to develop is, as you say physique and decision making. It's mostly about developing a secure foundation of understanding every aspect of the game/the players own strengths/weaknesses where the player can learn to expand on his abilities in the team and improve/eradicate his weaknesses. It's usually done in steps, to accomodate the knowledge/ability to a gradually higher tempo. That's the case for most of the players. Some develop more by playing games, some develop more in a coaching environment - and it's highly individual. It's very rare that you have players like Owen, Rooney or Fabrergas who are so mature in decision-making/ability/physique that they can make the step up to highest level at such a young age.

[Pr0n]

yes, quite a happy camper, got a day off work thanks

I simply answered the question honestly

if you can't handle the answer that's your problem, go see a doctor and get some uppers

I think you are deluded in that case, but thanks for the tip. Should get some uppers and remove myself from this keyboard.

[a partridge in seat_5c]

I think you are deluded in that case

perhaps if you don't understand English properly you shouldn't comment on other people's delusion

I said don't expect to see any of these players in the first 16 any time soon

I didn't say they weren't any good, which is what you turned it into, erroneously

I don't do internet betting but if I did I would win in this instance

[Vinay]

When and if this crop of youngsters play together in a few years in the Prem, I dare say it will get very exciting for us!!!!

[Sarge]

If 3/4 of the players on the list posted in the first post come good well and good for us.

[Pr0n]

perhaps if you don't understand English properly you shouldn't comment on other people's delusion

I said don't expect to see any of these players in the first 16 any time soon

I didn't say they weren't any good, which is what you turned it into, erroneously

I don't do internet betting but if I did I would win in this instance

we'll see.. I doubt it will take until they are 22-23 to get a chance. Loan spells are a key for development and it will be interesting to see what happens with anderson next season. It's one thing making it into the squad/figuring in games and one thing becoming one of the 16 best players (which is what I assume you mean).

[Sarge]

By the sound of thing not this season but possibly next season their are potntially 3/4 players making a claim for the first team squad. This is a good thing.

[Texas Reds Fan]

Is an online subscription to LFC.tv a good way for a Yank to keep up with all our younger players? It shows all the reserve matches on a stream right?

[marvellous10]

I'd like to see some of the youngsters (Hamill/Anderson) take the place of the likes of Voronin/Sissoko, and same if Riise goes then we should have Insua as back up to Aurellio/Arbeloa

hope Gutherie comes back to us too, but can't see him sticking around if Momo and Masch are still here as he wouldn't get any games.

I lot of youth development is about making a profit too, not every player will make the grade for us, but can do for another championship/lower league club

[Degs]

Good thread this.

I've been doing the rounds trying to get info on our loanees.

So far I've only got Peltier and Anderson (Not doing Guthrie...saw a thread entitled "Benitez is a c*nt" that went on for 16 pages and immediatley realised those knobheads weren't for me.  Not doing Threlfall either as he's hardly played.

Paul Anderson from swansonline.net

How's he doing", - amazing, one of our best players, by far the fastest player we have, he likes to knock the ball past defenders and run around them and getting the ball back, he has a great crossing ability and has a good eye for goal, he was joint top in terms of scoring goals, earlier on this season, although he asn't bagged one of late. he is also very passionate with us, and when he gets back to you, i think he will have that little bit extra!!! he is quality and he's only 19. amazing

"What price would you put on his head", - honestly? at least a million

"Would you keep him", id love to, sadly he's too good and too expensive for us. this boy will make it big in a few years

"Can he make it at Liverpool", - given time most certainly.. id say he needs another season with us tho, to get him used to
first team football.... we did it for frank lampard, we'll do it for paul anderson!

How's he doing?
In a word, "spectacular". He started the season reasonably well. He demonstrated phenomenal pace, but appeared to lack confidence and control. Since then, he has broken into the first team squad for nearly every game and has evolved into a talented youngster.

What price would you put on his head?
There are rumours that the club have made an offer to Liverpool, but nothing has ever been published officially from the club. I think an offer of 1-1.5 million would be about right. We made 1 million on the sale of Lee Trundle, plus we're having a good run in the cups. I think the club would struggle financially to offer anything more, but that's just my opinion.

Would you keep him?
Without any doubt whatsoever. Personally, I would be delighted to retain him as a player and he's just what we would need if we get promoted in to the Championship this year.

Can he make it at Liverpool?
Not yet. His pace would astound the opposition, but I think he still lacks a little finesse that would be needed at Premiership level. He's definitely growing with each game and he's got a great career ahead of him.

We're all the better for having him in the team and he's a delight to watch.

They really love him, they feel he has come on leaps and bounds and are afraid of him playing against us in the cup for fear of a recall.  One point of note is that he has been "rested" as of late due to looking jaded.

Lee Peltier from "The green room"

How well is he playing?

IMO Struggled a little at the start of the season not help with him switching posistions. Whilst I think he's most effective at right back he can do a decent job in the centre of midfield. Has a tendancy to pick up the odd yellow cards as much rashness of youth more than anything.

Would you keep him at Yeovil?

Was disappointed he went back, would deifintely like him back.

How much would you say he's worth?

Hard to say but wouldn't be too surprised to see someone pay 3 figures 100-200,000. More likely than clubs will wait for his contract to run out not sure when that is.

Does he have the potential to play in the Premier League, eventually?

Possibly, he's defintalley got something about him but perhaps will need more experience at a higher level to see if he can cut it.

Does he have the potential to play for a "Big 4" like Liverpool, eventually?

I'd be surprised if he made that step up.

What is he like on the pitch?

Committed occasionally rash but productive.

How well is he playing?

He was playing well at right back. A very solid defensive player. Does not rush forward. I'd go as far as saying that in a few games, I've not really noticed him, but this is probably because the opposition would rather target the other flank.

Would you keep him at Yeovil?

Certainly, if we could afford him.

How much would you say he's worth?

Between 100-150k.

Does he have the potential to play in the Premier League, eventually?

No. He's not got quite the right mix of pace, height and touch for the top level (at least not for quite some time).

Does he have the potential to play for a "Big 4" like Liverpool, eventually?

That would make him international class, and I can't see it. Not sure I've ever seen a player at L1 level that I've truly belived could cut it in Europe.

What is he like on the pitch?

Strong, decent positional sense

Doesn't sound like a future first teamer, unfortunatley.

Stay tuned for some reports on Antwi and Hammill (hopefully).

[Sarge]

I lot of youth development is about making a profit too, not every player will make the grade for us, but can do for another championship/lower league club

Spot on as i stated below. If we get 3/4 very good squad players from the list of Youth/Reserve Team Players that is a massive bonus for us.

By the sound of thing not this season but possibly next season their are potntially 3/4 players making a claim for the first team squad. This is a good thing.

[Robbo1980]

I have just fast tracked myself from relatively in the dark about our kids to absolute expert using the wonder that is Youtube, just watched about an hours worth of highlights from various games....

Wil give my now expert analysis  on a few players

Plessis, big strong and contrary to what somebody else said he is not similar to Sissoko in touch or passing, he has an assured touch and a decent range of passing although he does generally play the ball short and easy, cant help but think he is being groomed to be a centre half though, very defensive minded midfielder at this stage but promising.

El Zhar, extremely tricky winger, pacey with an eye for goal, wether he makes the step up is another matter but for some clowns to completely right him off as he has not "stood out" in any of the games he has played for the first team so far is laughable, he will need time and games like they all will but he has a chance as he carries a goal threat and is something different.

Nemeth, took his goals well and does look like a young Robbie Fowler, not going to over hype him tho as some of his goals so far have been soft to say the least, time will tell but he does look a natural talent, lets see if we can groom him properly, he has a chance!!

Leto, this is a lad a i really rate, he looks a class above reserve league standard but when he has played in the first team he has struggled to make an impact, but thats understandable, he is young and new to the country playing, he has a great touch and eye for a pass (See his ball to Nemeth for a chance Nemeth had saved in the mini derby) and he has some pace, given time and confidence i really think this lad will make the step up to the first team.

Bruwer, to be honest he doesnt look much from what i saw there cant see any outstanding attributes, but thats not to say he doesnt have ability, it may be that he is still adapting, again we seem to forget these lads have moved to a new country and are no doubt missing family, friends etc and some will need more time, this lad needs to step up quickly now tho if he is to earn himself a new deal IMO.

Insua, didnt see a great deal from him defensivly as generally we seem to be on the attack in most reserve games but he seemed very willing to get forward and get crosses in, he did seem to have formed a decent understanding with Leto and that can only be a promising, obv he has a chance, as full back IMO is a position where you can give a chance to a bit of youth and let them show there goods.

Thats about all i can comment on from limited highlights and clips i have seen as the defenders never get a look in as we are always attacking, although the other CM (Spearing??) does look a v good player he will need to develope physically to stand a chance as a centre mid.

[Brick Tamland]

None will make it soon.


With the amount of pressure on the manager and club to perform and get results I just don't see faith being put in youth. For example, the centre back crisis, Hobbs has had his best opportunity to feature and has still not broken through hugely and now we sign a replacement from abroad for 6million to make his job harder.

We have around 22 first team players, only 16 can feature per match. 6 not even involved. That's a big enough amount to rotate without including the youth. If we had a smaller squad, then maybe, maybe... the youth would get a clearer progression to the first team. But we all know by now this is not Rafa's way, he'd rather spend on 4 decentish/versatile players for a position than spend huge on a world beater and gamble with a youngster as back up.

I don't see this changing anytime soon. Too much pressure on results. Can you imagine the slating the manager (and youth player) would've got if he'd of started Nemeth (for example) against Wigan and we'd still of got the 1-1??

[Robbo1980]

If this country would change the number of subs from 5 to 7 as it is abroad then managers would be ableto pick 1 or 2 kids per game and give them experience, rafa has been going on about this for a while but the dozy c*nts at the FA do...well....FA about it, if they want young english kids to get experince and come through changing that 1 rule would help massively IMO

[Degs]

If this country would change the number of subs from 5 to 7 as it is abroad then managers would be ableto pick 1 or 2 kids per game and give them experience, rafa has been going on about this for a while but the dozy c*nts at the FA do...well....FA about it, if they want young english kids to get experince and come through changing that 1 rule would help massively IMO

If the bench was 7 we'd still fill it with first teamers.

What I'd like to see is a mandatory 2 under 21 players on a 7 man bench.

Although if this was brought in it would probably be two English players.

[Robbo1980]

Just add, 1 of the things i fucking cant stand is dick heads saying these kids (like El Zhar and Hobbs) have no chance as they have not stood out in the 2 or 3 games they have played, fucking hell, it took Steven Gerrard a few months in the first team IMO before he found his rythym and he has not looked back has he, it takes time, a couple of games played invaribly in a weaker side is not the time to dismiss a young lads chances of making it.

at first Gerrard looked like he was star struck, 2/3 months later he was showing real promise and we could all see what he had, it just shows even the best struggle to make the step up (And its a fucking huge step) immediately.

[Brick Tamland]

If the bench was 7 we'd still fill it with first teamers.

What I'd like to see is a mandatory 2 under 21 players on a 7 man bench.

Although if this was brought in it would probably be two English players.

What's the rule in the SPL?

Is it - There must be 3 homegrown players U23 in the matchday squad?

[Sarge]

So as i read it.

Possible First Team

Bruna
Pacheco
Damien Plessis
Craig Lindfield
Lee Peltier
Krisztian Nemeth
Paul Anderson
Danny Guthrie

Maybe.

Ray Putterill
Robbie Threlfall
Stephen Darby
Adam Hammill
Mikel San Jose Dominguez
Francisco Duran

Doubtful.

Besian Idrizaj
Godwin Antwi
Miki Roque
Jay Spearing
Ryan Flynn
Ronald Huth

[Pr0n]

Btw, if you haven't already seen it, there's a good interview with Gary Ablett on youtube. From .tv I think.

[Pr0n]

I think Spearing could have a bright future ahead of him.. Did'nt he move up to the reserves this year only? Anyway, he looks a bit tiny yet (could use some bulk) and he could use a longer loan spell I think - but spot on attitude and good ability too.

[Robbo1980]

Add Leto to the 1st team list, IMO he will defo make it.

I have no idea how anybody can have an opinion Bruna as yet, be suprsied if Lindfield or peltier make it.

[Pr0n]

Add Leto to the 1st team list, IMO he will defo make it.

Along with Hobbs.. Both of these two could be due for a longer loan period.

[Art Vandelay]

So as i read it.

Possible First Team
Pacheco
Krisztian Nemeth
Paul Anderson
Danny Guthrie
Astrit A....

Maybe.
Damien Plessis
Bruna
Jay Spearing
Ray Putterill
Robbie Threlfall
Stephen Darby
Mikel San Jose Dominguez
Francisco Duran
Craig Lindfield
Lee Peltier
Godwin Antwi

Doubtful.
Adam Hammill
Miki Roque
Ryan Flynn
Ronald Huth

Never in a month of Sundays
Besian Idrizaj
Brouwer

[Robbo1980]

Along with Hobbs.. Both of these two could be due for a longer loan period.

The difference bewteen Hobbs and Leto getting a chance is that Hobbs position, we are strong in that position now with Skrtel, Carra  and Agger, wheras we dont have anybody for left wing really, Kewell who is out of contract soon, be suprised if Leto is actually loaned out, he could be a starter next season, only IMO of course.

[Pr0n]

The difference bewteen Hobbs and Leto getting a chance is that Hobbs position, we are strong in that position now with Skrtel, Carra  and Agger, wheras we dont have anybody for left wing really, Kewell who is out of contract soon, be suprised if Leto is actually loaned out, he could be a starter next season, only IMO of course.

Agreed, and a lot depends of wheter or not Sami is here next season, but that said, Hobbs have great masters to learn from in Carra and Sami, and would no doubt get more chances in the cups next season even in competition with 4 first teamers.. For me, if we get Agger back sooner rather than later, loaning out Hobbs for the remainder of the season would be a good idea.

Insua is another exciting one, who could be pushed in the right direction by a loan spell.

[Crazyhorse7778]

apart from the obvious ones, such as nemeth and pacheco, i rate adjarevic and san jose vey highly

also if/when swansea get promoted to the championship i think we should extend  paul anderson's loan for another year.

[Robbo1980]

Well with Agger playing in the reserves tomorrow he should be back for the game after the Boro one, i have said in another thread i can see Hobbs going out on loan for the rest of the season and all of next to get some proper football experience, why not send him to Swansea with his mate Paul Anderson, they are involved in big games as they are winning the league and are still n the FA Cup and lower league cup, some pressure football can only help his developement.

Not sure if sending young lads away together is a good idea tho, both could lose focus of what they are there for.

[Sarge]

Possible First Team

Pacheco
Krisztian Nemeth
Paul Anderson
Danny Guthrie
Insua
Sabestian Leto

[ouestlereferee]

I'll comment on the ones i think have a chance: the way he plays, he can attack but not with the speed of an Evra or a clichy, he's not that type of a left back. I would say he has a better cross than those 2 players and is probably better defensively as well. I would have him ahead of Riise in the pecking order so that says alot about how i rate him.

Pacheco - Havent seen much of him but what i have seen is this lad has vision and skill. He was highly rated at Barca and i think we have a real gem here. He is only 16 but i think once he gets more physique as he gets older he's a definite first teamer. I would be surprised if he doesnt break through before he is 20.

Nemeth - Like others have said he knows where the back of the net is. Always in the right place as well. I dont think he's ready for the first team yet, looks a bit light but given how poor Voronin is i would actually give him some minutes against Luton and against Swansea in the next round and take it from there.

Bruna - I havent seen the lad play at all but he was very highly rated at Madrid so that says a lot.

i'd agree with this entirely

[ouestlereferee]

what about sending players out to derby or sunderland?

sunderland, for example, are in dire need of a centre back (mcshane is appalling) and i'd be surprised if hobbs didn't get a good few first-team games there.  this would also have the following benefits:
- he'd be coming up against PL strikers (i felt agger learned a lot from facing drogba, in particular, a couple of times)
- we'd gauge exactly how good he is.  we have a fair idea he is PL standard, but it's a question of wherabouts.
- it'll showcase him to other teams

thoughts?

[Pr0n]

what about sending players out to derby or sunderland?

sunderland, for example, are in dire need of a centre back (mcshane is appalling) and i'd be surprised if hobbs didn't get a good few first-team games there.  this would also have the following benefits:
- he'd be coming up against PL strikers (i felt agger learned a lot from facing drogba, in particular, a couple of times)
- we'd gauge exactly how good he is.  we have a fair idea he is PL standard, but it's a question of wherabouts.
- it'll showcase him to other teams

thoughts?

For Derby I don't know, they seem to be sticking to their squad no matter what and looking to keep it into the championship (seeing this PL-stint as a learning experience). Sunderland, yes, why not?

[Robbo1980]

Because Sunderland have the financial clout to go and buy a first teamer now, they are trying to get themselves out of trouble, why would they take an in-experienced kid, Derby are trying to build for next season, again no advantage for them to take Hobbs IMO.

A championship side would do him at this stage, get 20 oodd games under his belt then play a full season somewhere next year, after that he should be ready to prove if he has what it takes.

[Sarge]

what about sending players out to derby or sunderland?

sunderland, for example, are in dire need of a centre back (mcshane is appalling) and i'd be surprised if hobbs didn't get a good few first-team games there.  this would also have the following benefits:
- he'd be coming up against PL strikers (i felt agger learned a lot from facing drogba, in particular, a couple of times)
- we'd gauge exactly how good he is.  we have a fair idea he is PL standard, but it's a question of wherabouts.
- it'll showcase him to other teams

thoughts?

Yes no harm as it is proved with Guthrie.

[ouestlereferee]

Because Sunderland have the financial clout to go and buy a first teamer now, they are trying to get themselves out of trouble, why would they take an in-experienced kid, Derby are trying to build for next season, again no advantage for them to take Hobbs IMO.

A championship side would do him at this stage, get 20 oodd games under his belt then play a full season somewhere next year, after that he should be ready to prove if he has what it takes.

well they've only got £20m to spend and they really need to improve everywhere.  So loans may be of interest to them.  Unless Keane can sell 6 or 7 players in the transfer window and add 3m of quality in each position then the bulk of their team is still not good enough.  As you say it's a gamble, but Keane has to gamble - his "safe option" does not work.  That's why Hobbs is more likely to get game time with them than with us, where Arbeloa is not as big a gamble - he's alot more used to working with Carragher, Riise & Finnan so you're only asking him to move position, wheras you're asking Hobbs to work with a new defence, at a far far higher standard.

[The Nihilists]

What worries me though is someone like Linfield how was raved about is no where near the 1st team and you have to wonder why.

Any thoughts on Linfield anyone.

I don't think anyone raved about Linfield - always looked a decent reserve type, bit like Mellor. Should make it as a pro, but maybe a division or two down, at least to start with.

Everyone should also remember that Arsenal's young team has taken a long time to get together, getting Carling Cup games here and there.