Topic: Listing potential reasons for our decline

[DelTrotter]

Not that I have read. Normally when there is an argument or discussion on here about Bobby’s contract normally those people advocating for it say he will get a reduced contract.

You would imagine he gets some correction on his wage relative to his squad level but it won’t be anywhere under £100k which then begs the question why the hell would we extend it.

Given he won't get many years out of us he most definitely wouldn't be taking a big pay cut too. We get told on here he's still amazing, only 31 etc etc yet the same people seem to think someone that amazing will be sticking around for about 50k a week. Yeah right. A bit unfair on Bobby but his whole situation worries me about where we are headed and no lessons being learned.

[bird_lfc]

I agree with 95% of what is written above.

The wages paid to the team are below, I have no idea if they are accurate.

https://www.spotrac.com/epl/liverpool-fc/payroll/

You’d expect Hendo to be among the highest earners, he’s club captain.

Some interesting figures on there. And a lot of money that can be saved from the summer

I’ve got a feeling salah is off so that combined with some deadwood being shipped out you can be saving £1m a week quite comfortable

Curtis Jones needs a new agent though if that’s true. New contract in December and he’s ‘only’ getting £15k a week while Nat Phillips is getting like four times that?

[MrGrumpy]

Thanks mate - know its all a little uncertain but jesus some of those will make ones head hurt (as you said about Chamberlain, not a remotely decent deputy and still being paid big wage)

More concerningly, we have five more contract years of Fabinho and Hendo to pay out (with them being highest earners after Thiago - who only has a year left anyway)

Fabinho was one of the top players in his position on the planet when he got that contract. Who knows, after a summer off and a good pre-season he may return to that level. Certainly the squad needed freshening up last summer, with Ox and Keita the obvious candidates to be axed.

[jsl2000]

I don’t believe it’s arrogance or anything of the sort, Klopp just isn’t that kind of person and wouldn’t accept it from anyone else.

While we know we needed a midfielder or two, when they didn’t get their main target and for whatever reason didn’t go after others they would have thought based on previous experience of the players they have that we’d have coped.

No one could have predicted quite such a spectacular fall off from everyone all at once. I can’t think of anything comparable from a top level team (although there probably is if you look hard enough).

To those saying we were flagging or starting to look done at the end of the last season, I think at the time that was easily explainable given the number of games we had played and the lack of time between each one. I’m sure it was expected that even after a shorter than usual off season that the players would recover as they have before. And we’ve also started slowly before because of the intensity of pre season so again they probably thought we would pick up after a bit, so they probably didn’t feel the need to react after Fulham

There’s clearly something not right on the pitch and probably off it with all the changes after a period of stability from the back room team and the owners looking to either sell or gain further investment. While the owners may have known what they were intending to do in the summer we don’t know that.

I think it would be fair to say we should have adapted things like tactics and even our transfer policy more than we have, but the fact we haven’t shouldnt have led to a fall off of such proportions.

I get people are pissed off, frustrated at things that seem obvious but haven’t been addressed, I just think it’s a perfect storm and the best thing we can do as supporters is pull together to support each other and Jurgen and the team. Regardless of the dreadful performances we’ve seen particularly of late, I’m trying hard not to lash out at the players or my fellow supporters as it doesn’t actually make anything better.  Some of the stuff being said about players and now even Jurgen is hard for me to accept based on what these lads have delivered for us. That doesn’t mean we should be complacent and it’s clear now in a way it wasn’t in the summer that many may be done.

I don’t even know what I’m trying to say anymore, I guess I’d like us to largely accept the position we’re in, and give them the chance to fix as much as possible this summer. If that didn’t happen then I think it’ll be much harder to accept as that’s what the evidence points to needing to happen in much bigger way than before.

Let’s try and get behind the team as much as possible and help in any ways we can even if it’s only a minor influence on them. That’s what I’ve always believed supporting Liverpool was about, not just about the good times of which we’ve had plenty but sticking together through the bad times too. That’s what made us special in my eyes, and it feels like we’re losing that.

We sing YNWA and that’s what Jurgen, the staff and players need from us, to know we are there. And we accept their errors this season and give them the chance to put them right. It’s how we react and support during these periods that really show what we as supporters are about. The good times are easy, and they will return, despite it feeling a long way off right now.

End of rant

Agree with alot of this.  For me there was an obvious move to either a new formation or new formation/system.  Getting nunez (who i think will come good) and then going after Tchouaméni was evidence of that and given the longer term link to Bellingham there was I think a move to running something like a 42121 or 4231 formation (both of which we've seen this season).  When the Tchouaméni deal fell through and he chose Real that scuppered a lot of that but having already got nunez for stupid money (overpriced i'd say) there seemed to be the notion to go ahead and hope the existing midfielders could do it.  Unfortunately that doesn't seem the case and with all the injuries its exacerbated that even more.  .  Henderson gets more injury prone the older he gets which is understandable and i think Thiago's legs have gone, though for me he wouldn't have fitted the new of playing anyway.  Getting Arthur was a knee jerk for that all that i'd say but he's nowhere near the type of midfielder Tchouaméni or Bellingham are.  Then the owners come out and basically say they can't compete with the big money (which is code for we can't afford Bellingham) and it all starts unravelling from there.  Now the teams in limbo they're a step towards a new way of playing but have to play the old way because that's the players we have and then it all becomes very disjointed.  i feel for all parties involved to be fair, especially Klopp cos he's practically been overtaken by events without any real sign of something being done about it. 

[Gnurglan]

Fatigue, injuries and being too late to address the age mix in midfield.

We played so many competitive games last season. It was extremely positive. The backlash is what we are seeing. Then came lots of games before the World Cup. In combination we got fatigue and injuries. Being without Diaz, Jota, Firmino and VVD for long spells has made the effect on our team a lot worse. One of the problems is we have basically lost our well-drilled front three and I believe it has made us easier to play through, which has then exposed our midfield more and made it look worse than it is.

We have tried to address the midfield issue. Elliott has played in all(?) our games so far. It's the kind of development we wanted. We are now using Bajcetic, which is another positive. The issue is of course that our senior CM players, who have served us so well for so long, are playing below the level we are used to. Sometimes a lot below that level.

[baltic out here]

Not reasons, but there seems to be a pattern in recent history with declines and contract extensions that were agreed upon after a good season. While there were obviously different circumstances in each case, it is deja vu again in that sense:
Rafa 08/09 title challenge, finished second, contract extension, followed by massive decline in 09/10
Rodgers 13/14 title challenge, finished second, contract extension, followed by decline in 14/15
Klopp's contract is extended after a great season, though yet again finishing second after a title challenge
Could throw in Kenny's full managerial contract after his positive interim manager stint and that didn't go well either

Complacency or just bad decisions? All of these seasons were preceded by bad transfer windows. There is the gut punch of missing out on the title of course. Rafa was gone after 9/10, though the whole future of the club was in question. Rodgers was given another go, but soon replaced as no improvement was seen. I'm sure Klopp gets to build again from the summer, but there tends to be a drastic decline after a very good run with our managers in recent times.

[didi shamone]

Thanks mate - know its all a little uncertain but jesus some of those will make ones head hurt (as you said about Chamberlain, not a remotely decent deputy and still being paid big wage)

More concerningly, we have five more contract years of Fabinho and Hendo to pay out (with them being highest earners after Thiago - who only has a year left anyway)

Melo will end up costing over 10million between fee and wages. That's quite something.  I never want to see another money saving loan. Klopp deserves better.

[buttersstotch]

I think lots of people have said things way better than I will do. The warning signs were there last season towards the end. We got through on sheer will power, but I do think that will have taken a lot out of the players both physically and mentally. It did to me in the summer - I wasn't interested in the new season at all as it felt like there was no break at all. Couple that with a criminal lack of inder investment in the squad, our squad has grown old together. The league seems to have pivoted more towards pressing/athleticism.

The start of the season, injuries crippled our start and I don't know how they were fitnessed/conditioned, but I can forgive people for getting it wrong with the brand new season we've got. What us hard is since the restart we've got worse and other teams have got better.. that's the real head scratcher for me.

As much as we all want to change tactics, I don't think it helps the players when they're trying to be something we're not e.g. way deeper and more compact. I get this is basic football and players should be able to adapt. That all comes down to the recruitment in the squad though, I think Klopp takes some of this blame, but it's also clear we've been criminally under-invested. I think Klopp realises his players can't play how we wants to play so I'm expecting a huge summer, but we shoud;n't be in this position. I know people don't want to hear it, but if we don't get Bellingham then I think everyone looks even more stupid than they currently look.

[UntouchableLuis]

More worrying for me than analysing the issues - and I think there's 4 or 5 big issues at play here, is considering how do we move forward? Can I see a situation where we go winning big trophies under Jurgen again? It's very difficult. I think the owners sack him or he walks away instead. I think we've given up on the season to such an extent that we could sink lower and lower and at some stage the owners are going to want a serious conversation about why we are 10th, 11th, 15th, who knows, in the table. They won't be blaming themselves.

[Bobinhood]

Mane left.

[Gnurglan]

More worrying for me than analysing the issues - and I think there's 4 or 5 big issues at play here, is considering how do we move forward? Can I see a situation where we go winning big trophies under Jurgen again? It's very difficult. I think the owners sack him or he walks away instead. I think we've given up on the season to such an extent that we could sink lower and lower and at some stage the owners are going to want a serious conversation about why we are 10th, 11th, 15th, who knows, in the table. They won't be blaming themselves.

We take one game at a time and try and correct the problems we have.

Come summer we are (very) likely to do something in CM transfer wise. Maybe something in defence too. Until then? Give little game time to those who have no future at the club. Work with those we want to keep. Then at least we will get something valuable with us for next season. Once we get VVD, Diaz, Jota and Firmino back I think we can get to see a real improvement. How far that will take us is anyone’s guess.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Complacency is at the heart of it for me. Relatively easily fixed for next season

[AndyInVA]

We were….but there were signs towards the end of last season that it was adrenalin / momentum / exhausting the last bit of energy to get us through.
I think we were behind in every game in May (except the FA cup final)?
Fabinho was showing signs of decline in that period.
Listen…it was an incredible season….but towards the end we were running on empty…hence the huge drop off.

That is my take as well. The players looked completely done in. They looked like they needed months off and not a few weeks. As much as Jurgen is a legend, I do wonder if a different voice would have made a difference.

The way Pep took a year or so off when he did. I thought that was quite a mature decision. Jurgen would probably benefit from the same thing. He is still a brilliant manager who the players love but not everyone can be full on forever.

[duvva 💅]

That is my take as well. The players looked completely done in. They looked like they needed months off and not a few weeks. As much as Jurgen is a legend, I do wonder if a different voice would have made a difference.

The way Pep took a year or so off when he did. I thought that was quite a mature decision. Jurgen would probably benefit from the same thing. He is still a brilliant manager who the players love but not everyone can be full on forever.

This is a joke post right, you want Klopp to take a year off? Madness. Perhaps change up some of the back room staff if we need fresh voices or a different approach, but the last thing we need is no Klopp

[HeartAndSoul]

1. Underinvestment in the squad. We never really built on the squad when we were on top. There were always excuses why we couldn’t upgrade the team.
2. This is the first time I’ve seen such a huge drop in so many players at the same time. Usually you see one or two but it’s literally the full squad.
3. Our transfer has been shocking this season. Not one of the players we signed in the summer or January, you’d say have came in and impressed constantly.
4. Giving too much control to klopp and ljinders in the transfer market. I think that relates to point 3 where a player has passed the eye test and played well against us and we’ve went and signed them.
5. Owners are tight greedy bastards.
6. Majority of our squad are on the wrong side of 30 and are just going to keep declining worse and worse.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

1 - Played every game possible the season before.
2 - Lack of investment.

End...

[CS111]

I'm surprised nothing has been leaked about why so many are leaving in the background. Obviously something isn't right backstage but that shouldn't really be affecting the players on field.
Too many of them , actually all of them look 'off' bar Allison.
It's pretty unexplainable how they can go from world beaters to near relegation fodder.
We basically need half a new 1st team.
2-3 midfielders that stay fit
1 x CB that stays fit
And a right back to try and get TAA out of the form he's in. Trents big problem is that you can run past him with ease, and when teams are actually attacking us he's not good , no other way of putting it, but going forward there isn't anyone better.

[Realgman]

Absolutely run ragged, that's both the players and Klopp.
losing the league twice with huge points tally, by one point, llosing the two big ones last year by very little too..And all with the disadvantage of squad depth, and book cooking advantage city had, and the fact that guardiola is in fact a brilliant coach to boot. The exhaustion led in a large part to the injury crisis too..the world cup
bollixed tired ultimately...

[Realgman]

I'm surprised nothing has been leaked about why so many are leaving in the background. Obviously something isn't right backstage but that shouldn't really be affecting the players on field.
Too many of them , actually all of them look 'off' bar Allison.
It's pretty unexplainable how they can go from world beaters to near relegation fodder.
We basically need half a new 1st team.
2-3 midfielders that stay fit
1 x CB that stays fit
And a right back to try and get TAA out of the form he's in. Trents big problem is that you can run past him with ease, and when teams are actually attacking us he's not good , no other way of putting it, but going forward there isn't anyone better.

I would love to know the reason behind this too...

[rossipersempre]

1 - Played every game possible the season before.
2 - Lack of investment.

End...

3 - Morale in the toilet, emanating from the absentee executive/ownership, key staff having left or serving their notices, all of which cascades down throughout the club, and of course onto the players, many of whom have hit a physical wall as well as psychological.

Sometimes you can't just give one specific reason, it's just a vibe internally, but the one constant is that it always starts from the top.

[rossipersempre]

I would love to know the reason behind this too...

Demotivation is a powerful driver. For me, the red flag was Edwards leaving without any job to go to (still the case) which speaks to someone who's had enough, burnt out, and could see the writing on the wall in terms of FSG's interest and investment.

[Solomon Grundy]

3 - Morale in the toilet, emanating from the absentee executive/ownership, key staff having left or serving their notices, all of which cascades down throughout the club, and of course onto the players, many of whom have hit a physical wall as well as psychological.

Sometimes you can't just give one specific reason, it's just a vibe internally, but the one constant is that it always starts from the top.

I'd add

4 Complacency.

To the list as well. It started from the top and found its way down.

[rossipersempre]

I'd add

4 Complacency.

To the list as well. It started from the top and found its way down.

Agree. Possibly a bit of hubris too, given recent success.

[Realgman]

Demotivation is a powerful driver. For me, the red flag was Edwards leaving without any job to go to (still the case) which speaks to someone who's had enough, burnt out, and could see the writing on the wall in terms of FSG's interest and investment.

Certainly a powerful driver... Edwards leaving perhaps "having enough" is in itself a worrying thought, I mean enough of the highest level, and success... the way we were stymied in other trophies by city and the endless top class substitutes in every single position must have had a real punishing effect on everyone in the club... even with the glory we did achieve...

just to add, I don't really see the complacency bit as big, maybe a touch, but the smallest margins etc..., I personally think they are all wrung a bit out after so much effort..

[WhereAngelsPlay]

3 - Morale in the toilet, emanating from the absentee executive/ownership, key staff having left or serving their notices, all of which cascades down throughout the club, and of course onto the players, many of whom have hit a physical wall as well as psychological.

Sometimes you can't just give one specific reason, it's just a vibe internally, but the one constant is that it always starts from the top.

1st two caused your No3.

[Sinyoro]

They gave it all last season and what a ride it was 👏🏾

Mental fatigue

[TomDcs]

Is there some weird narcissistic virtue that is the flip to the 12th man, miraculous, god like presence of our club? Does it require a fall from grace, that is equal to all the triumphs against all odds, to spur us back into positive momentum? Probably not, but it sounded good in my head, and is much simpler to get my head around than the likely reality.

[Asheroo]

The physical and mental exhaustion is glaring. We generally have had stinkers of seasons following a 2nd place finish the season before, 19/20 was the exception. The midfield has declined and it has been scandalous that we haven't introduced a quality younger player into there by now. After winning the league and champions league finals we should have bought an established 22-25 year old to rotate in and improve. The age of the squad now means that by standing still we will be going backwards, I think the players know this. Finishing 2nd on 92 points and feeling that the team will regress the next season due to decline, loss of Mane, Backroom staff departures, No significant on field investment can only be detrimental to morale and ultimately performances.

I think the midseason world cup has been a disaster, Van Dijk and Fabinho in particular seem to been more concentrated on their national teams. I think now that has passed, January window is closed with no midfield investment everyone has now written off the season.

[Max_powers]

Maybe the biggest one: It's a game of very fine margins at the top.

When a few things are wrong it can seem like everything is wrong because results and performances start to look bad. In the past under Klopp at times we have really maximized these fine margins and small advantages to dominate but right now, we are the really lacking ability to win second balls and press efficiently, something Klopp's system relies heavily on.

A few examples of how small changes (sometime just mental) can snowball in a good or bad way.

Liverpool 2021 is utter crap most players are written off. Liverpool 2022 becomes the only team ever to threaten a quadruple with minimal changes. Liverpool 2023 looking utter crap again.

Another great example is Arsenal gone from bottling Top 4 every year to league leaders in a few months when few predicted.

Also, Fulham went from championship to pre-season relegation favorites to being in the Top half in February ahead of Liverpool and Chelsea who have spent more than half a billion in a season. 

[Barrow Shaun]

In response to the title of this thread:

We need some new players. We have some when lads come back from injuries so that's a start, but we need a couple more, obviously, and a few to be let go.
I also think we need to get this ownership stuff sorted and made clear.

Right now on the pitch though, we need to become difficult to beat, whatever that takes. Brentford, Brighton and Wolves have just (deservedly) battered us.

[bornandbRED]

We look miles off it physically compared to any team we play against. We couldn’t get anywhere near Wolves - almost makes you believe the inhaler/caffeine off cycle bullshit when you’re getting bullied by a 36 year old Moutinho, slugs like Neves and industrial cloggers like Craig Dawson. They literally ran rings around us.

In reality, I’m gonna guess we absolutely fucked up pre-season/the short break from a fitness perspective. But then you’d think the vast majority of the squad that didn’t go to the WC would be able to address this issue in the winter break? Nothing makes any sense at LFC this season.

[KirkVanHouten]

Confluence of many things.
- Mane was a very important player for us, drew a lot of attention and opened space for others. Nunez isn't at the same level yet.
- Jota and Diaz have been out for most of the season.
- Incredibly braindead tour of Asia after playing every game last season with a shortened break.
- Mental exhaustion from the players after just falling short of the league and CL
- Underperformance of several key players like Fabinho, Henderson, Trent and Robbo.
- Underinvestment in midfield
- Keeping players in the squad that should have been gotten rid of ages ago (Ox, Phillips, even Keita)
- Owner's looking for outside investment
- All the senior scouting staff leaving

There are so many things going wrong at the moment, the worst part is that seeing us get dominated by relegation fodder isn't even shocking anymore. I watched Wolves score twice in 12 minutes and didn't even feel surprise. I genuinely think we'd lose to a league one side at present.

[Fromola]

3 - Morale in the toilet, emanating from the absentee executive/ownership, key staff having left or serving their notices, all of which cascades down throughout the club, and of course onto the players, many of whom have hit a physical wall as well as psychological.

Sometimes you can't just give one specific reason, it's just a vibe internally, but the one constant is that it always starts from the top.

Morale down the toilet with the squad since August when we wouldn't strengthen midfield. Especially after a slow start and injury crisis. The owners gave up on the season so the players did.

It was going to be a struggle anyway (City have gone down the toilet as well). But we're obvious further down.

[Knight]

Philips on £64k... why?

[El Lobo]

He's taken a paycut? Fair play

[killer-heels]

Philips on £64k... why?

Protecting value innit. Smartest person in the room and all that.

[PhilV]

I honestly think we are slow at moving on players, both fans and more importantly, the club.

So many people cruising that show they are not at the level we need to be to be competing for titles.

Keita, Ox, Jones, Adrian, Arthur and potentially more. We need to simply be more cutthroat, it is that simple for me, we are too sentimental I feel at times and as fans I get it, I am too, I always want the Ox to do well, but he doesn't and the club need to put in people who are good. Arthur has been dead weight with injury etc, I feel most people would terminate loan and send him back to home club to be rehabilitated, why are we rehabilitating a loanee???

Adrian not as good as Kelleher, why is he still about instead of moving him on?

Stuff like that, we are too attached, just let them go.

[Knight]

Protecting value innit. Smartest person in the room and all that.

'Hey lads lets pay this Philips lad 3.3 million a year to protect his value.'

4 years later he leaves on a free after we've paid him £13 million in wages.

[Knight]

I honestly think we are slow at moving on players, both fans and more importantly, the club.

So many people cruising that show they are not at the level we need to be to be competing for titles.

Keita, Ox, Jones, Adrian, Arthur and potentially more. We need to simply be more cutthroat, it is that simple for me, we are too sentimental I feel at times and as fans I get it, I am too, I always want the Ox to do well, but he doesn't and the club need to put in people who are good. Arthur has been dead weight with injury etc, I feel most people would terminate loan and send him back to home club to be rehabilitated, why are we rehabilitating a loanee???

Adrian not as good as Kelleher, why is he still about instead of moving him on?

Stuff like that, we are too attached, just let them go.

Nah keeping Arthur allowed them to say there was no room in the squad to buy more players. A galaxy brain play that one.

[El Lobo]

So if you google 'Nat Phillips wages' the first source that comes up says he's on £24k a week.

The first source that says he's on £64k a week? Well....I'd hope that no-one here would use it.