Topic: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?

[MNAA]

Surprisingly decent and measured. Only the first guy repeated bollocks. The rest gave quite thoughtful responses. 

The Grauniad must have been disappointed at the lack of apoplexy and blame. Though as usual they were shameless enough to take Jackson's phrase 'The system as a whole has failed' and twist it into the very different and sensationalised 'The whole system has failed' for the headline.

Agree. That’s my take too when I read it

[MNAA]

not sure fatigue is the issue. surely the coaching staff would have noticed that and acted accordingly.

think we havent got over losing the champions league and league last season.

we will come good again and i do believe that the world cup will have a massive bearing on this season. out of the top 6 we are probably in the best position in terms of players involved in that.

Both physical and mental fatigue. Most likely more mental than physical which is more difficult to overcome

[Son of Spion]

Both physical and mental fatigue. Most likely more mental than physical which is more difficult to overcome

I'd agree with that. Last season really took its toll. So has relentlessly going toe-to-toe with a nation state season after season without having the same resources.

I'm just a fan, but it's absolutely drained me too, and I'm not even on the pitch. Being so damn brilliant yet still getting cheated out of titles is also tough to deal with psychologically.

Thing is, if you are mentally shattered, your body just doesn't respond as well as it might otherwise have done. When the mind becomes sluggish it's easy to lose some of your focus and sharpness. Your game can become sluggish too. In a sport with incredibly fine margins even a small collective drop-off can cost you.

[killer-heels]

Even if we were undefeated entering this stretch it still wouldn't be anything out of the norm to drop points to an Arsenal or ManC team in the forms they are in. So the problem in saying your season and future of the squad hinges on these games is all the reasons why your season hinges on these games. The result in those games doesn't change that. You could dominate both games in almost every conceivable statistic but still drop points, what does that then tell you?

For the transfers, if your starting XI is no longer able to obtain a top 4 level of output then what good does signing 4-5 non-starters do? If the worst comes to pass then Keita, Ox, Milner and Firmino being out of contract are the least of the clubs problems. You still have a shit load of money going to players that no longer are playing to the level they are paid at. You're then signing 4-5 players because you're selling some of them or loaning at minimum, not because the others are out of contract.

Well yeah, if we dont get top four then there is an argument that we need a few starters and that our current sacred cows may not be sacred enough anymore.

[markmywords]

I'd agree with that. Last season really took its toll. So has relentlessly going toe-to-toe with a nation state season after season without having the same resources.

I'm just a fan, but it's absolutely drained me too, and I'm not even on the pitch. Being so damn brilliant yet still getting cheated out of titles is also tough to deal with psychologically.

Thing is, if you are mentally shattered, your body just doesn't respond as well as it might otherwise have done. When the mind becomes sluggish it's easy to lose some of your focus and sharpness. Your game can become sluggish too. In a sport with incredibly fine margins even a small collective drop-off can cost you.

A small collective drop off can definitely cost you, however I think ours is more to do with a possible pre season training miscalculation and the accumulated wear and tear that can hit 30-something sportsmen.

This team has achieved greatness in this league, but I would imagine, when you finish 1 point behind ,mistakes made in the games where we dropped points, will replay in the mind, not the opposition spending power., if we had finished 15 points beind, then their spending would be a more plausible conclusion.  In fact we were 15 points or so behind in jan of this yr, that would have been the time to look at city's spending and throw our hands in the air.    Unfortunately we have 5 or 6 around the same age, if a couple lose half a step, in a hi energy pressing team, that plays with risk, those small margins can have a big impact

Ironically the only way I can see us buying 4 or 5 players in the summer, is if we win games (like the next 2) rebound strongly, which we are capable of and finish 2nd, then we will have hi value sellable assets who could fund a big summer influx

[Keith Lard]

I reckon our squad is so deep in transition that we may sack off fighting for the league this year and just use it to progress the likes of Nunez, Elliott, Carvalho, Jones and Ramsey. We need them ready for next year, supplemented with a couple more quality signings. This is probably the only way we compete with the likes of Man City. There will be seasons where we need to prioritise certain competitions to work through transition. Man City will always be able to spend their way through transition and not have to worry about risk of transfers not working out.

I can see a world where the Champions League gets prioritised, and we manage the squad to get top 4 in the league, and use youth for domestic cups this year.

[killer-heels]

I reckon our squad is so deep in transition that we may sack off fighting for the league this year and just use it to progress the likes of Nunez, Elliott, Carvalho, Jones and Ramsey. We need them ready for next year, supplemented with a couple more quality signings. This is probably the only way we compete with the likes of Man City. There will be seasons where we need to prioritise certain competitions to work through transition. Man City will always be able to spend their way through transition and not have to worry about risk of transfers not working out.

I can see a world where the Champions League gets prioritised, and we manage the squad to get top 4 in the league, and use youth for domestic cups this year.

I dont buy that. If we were into transition seasons, then we needed more change. We have hardly changed anything really.

[Keith Lard]

I dont buy that. If we were into transition seasons, then we needed more change. We have hardly changed anything really.

Change doesn’t just come in the form of signings

[Cormack Snr]

We have been the only team who have kept tabs with City in the last few years and have even been recognised as The Best Team in The World at one point. For one reason or another the club, Klopp and the owners have let us deteriorate in plain sight.
We have been second best in quite a few games this season, but I have a funny feeling we will get back on track very soon. I also think Trent will end up in midfield with someone new taking over right back.

[AmanShah21]

I am worried now. No more excuses left. No major injuries, we have everyone in our would-be starting XI fit. What's becoming more and more obvious now is that how many of our players are on decline. It should have been obvious, but I was one of those who thought it should still be manageable. Hendo is a passenger for 70% of the game, Milner seems to have gotten slower by yards. Virgil looks like a shadow of his dominant self. These are terribly worrying signs. This squad needs surgery and the only silver lining I see is that we'll only be 16 games in when the window opens, so its still salvageable to keep us in Champions League places. What looked like maybe one or two midfielders now seems like we'll need a whole lot more. I am dreading all the noise about Klopp that will start now. That's going be awful, probably the worst of it.

[Lynndenberries]

Time to tear it up. The most concerning part is the players who look most off it are mainly the ones who have recently gotten new contracts. We are severely lacking the type of player we looked for in the past, so who knows where we go from here.

[J-Mc-]

The last few years have finally caught upto us.

Don’t want to see anymore of the PR bullshit from any of the lads, just need them to take a hard look in a mirror and realise that they’re better than they’re playing at the minute.

Personally think after the world cup, we’ll be flying, but where we are in the table by then is the massive worry.

FSG need to dip their hands in their pocket and give Klopp the backing.

[UNO]

The team is too old and slow now and Arsenal is playing like the Liverpool 5 years ago. The cycle of most our senior players is done, an era is finished due to the owners’ stinginess in replacing players to keep the team sharp. Let’s wait for the right players, my axx!

[RedKenWah]

Personally think after the world cup, we’ll be flying, but where we are in the table by then is the massive worry.

FSG need to dip their hands in their pocket and give Klopp the backing.

The worry there is we have just had quite a significant and unexpected break in Sept and the team looked knackered after that so what is different to the World Cup break seeing anything different. I don’t see it personally. We are starting games 1 - 0 down as we can’t defend, we struggle to get back into a game and then are so easy to lose the initiative again.

We have an alarmingly high number of players whom are in an age bracket which we can’t possibly continue to rely upon long term. Today we had a midfield 2 of Hendo & Thiago and whilst for the most part they played exceptionally well and kept Arsenal’s midfield at bay, simple fact is they can’t do it for 90 mins over and over again… look at this month and we have 7 games in a space of a month or something silly….

We are dangerously looking like dropping off the top half of the premier league table, never mind top 4…

I can’t see how we turn this around with the current crop of players… we need reinforcements and we need them in Jan and the following summer…

[UntouchableLuis]

The last few years have finally caught upto us.

Don’t want to see anymore of the PR bullshit from any of the lads, just need them to take a hard look in a mirror and realise that they’re better than they’re playing at the minute.

Personally think after the world cup, we’ll be flying, but where we are in the table by then is the massive worry.

FSG need to dip their hands in their pocket and give Klopp the backing.

I don't understand this 'after the world cup' stuff. Why would we suddenly look brilliant?

We need cover for right back, 2 new midfielders and probably need to start looking for a world class replacement for Salah as well.

[Cafe De Paris]

It’s a problem if people aren’t worried!

[rawcusk8]

Just 9 more games till the World Cup break, can’t come quick enough.

[MPowerYNWA]

I don't understand this 'after the world cup' stuff. Why would we suddenly look brilliant?

We need cover for right back, 2 new midfielders and probably need to start looking for a world class replacement for Salah as well.

I’d say 3 midfielders, 1 RB and 2 forwards (assuming Bobby leaves)  - if we want to compete across all major competitions with sufficient squad depth.

[Schmidt]

I don't understand this 'after the world cup' stuff. Why would we suddenly look brilliant?

We need cover for right back, 2 new midfielders and probably need to start looking for a world class replacement for Salah as well.

We've been through an injury crisis which has likely had even more of an impact than people realise, we've played a lot of games with an imbalanced XI which has meant more running, more last ditch tackles, more exhausted players. We're also missing all of our youth from midfield.

After the World Cup we'll hopefully have more players back, though we obviously shouldn't be relying on the ones that are out. We'll also have a transfer window to help, hopefully with a player or two lined up early on.

[DelTrotter]

We've got massive problems and big ones coming in the future with other key players that will need replacing. There is going to be loads of work that needs doing, it's always an ongoing process as perfection doesn't exist and we've done some great stuff with Ibou, Diogo, Darwin etc but we needed to do much more in the summer and it fucked us. Hopefully we rectify that in Jan and do plenty more in the summer otherwise before you know it you can just spend years being shit with problem after problem to sort that is really hard to get on top of and it's a really tough rut to get out of. We aren't finished by any means and there's still plenty at the club to be optimistic about but we've got some enormous windows coming and tough decisions to make.

I don't think a break for the world cup solves anything for the current squad, our problems are mostly only solved with transfers like it or not.

[Gnurglan]

Too many players are performing below the level we are used to. I can’t say why, but the impression is we are tired. Our timing is off. Apart from Diaz I think we lack energy and those high-intensive runs from our players that we are known for. We have been unlucky with injuries in CM, despite having an army of options on paper. That needs to be addressed. Somehow. Eventually we will need to find replacements/improvements but that’s months away. Let's hope players get back from injury. Longer term, we need to rebuild that CM. Our most reliable players (Fabinho, Henderson, Thiago and Milner) are all quite old. Quite frankly we need to buy a top CM with the best years ahead of him. I don't think we need any other big change, but it's an important one.

Our recent switch to 4-2-3-1/4-2-4 feels rushed and our squad is not built for it. Basically we have 5 attacking players. With Diaz off injured vs Arsenal we have four left. Meaning if we go 4-2-3-1 all of them need to play and we have no alternative on the bench. That won’t even last the month of October. If CM is an issue, our attack could well be another. I suspect Elliott will have to move to RM from time to time.

We are in a really difficult situation now. The only way out is for players to perform better. Nothing else will come to the rescue.

[le_boss]

Just need to take this season on the chin; learn lessons and move forward.

[12Kings]

It’s on the owners (the club) not the manager, not the players, there should not be any more lessons to learn for them in all honesty.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

This team is done, probably finish 6th or so because of poor planning and lack of investment. Dead players, unambitious owners and needing a total overhaul in the summer instead of strengthening from a position of power.

Last year, the excuse was that we only wanted Jude and he wasn't available, this year, it'll be that there is no CL funds to provide a rebuild. The owners hit the jackpot with Klopp and rested on their laurels and they're now being exposed for their flawed system.

[HeartAndSoul]

So how many players are just out of form and how many of these players are over the hill. All our players look to be declining and showing no signs of turning it around. VVD, Fabinho, Hendo, Salah, TAA, Robertson. Then you’ve got Firmino and Thiago who can’t run anymore?

This is our spine we’re talking about here and they’ve all been woeful. Fabinho Robbo and TAA still have time on their side but the others, I worry about them. Will FSG invest that much in the squad where we can adequately replace all these players?

[JamesG L4]

This team is done, probably finish 6th or so because of poor planning and lack of investment. Dead players, unambitious owners and needing a total overhaul in the summer instead of strengthening from a position of power.

Last year, the excuse was that we only wanted Jude and he wasn't available, this year, it'll be that there is no CL funds to provide a rebuild. The owners hit the jackpot with Klopp and rested on their laurels and they're now being exposed
for their flawed system.

Flawed system… that won every major trophy. Fuck me, I hope we have more flawed systems in the future

[Hi72]

I don't know where to start in terms of what is wrong with Liverpool at the moment but all factors cited are probably plausible to a certain extent.  Fatigue, incorrect transfer policy, Mane leaving, Salah´s wages, midfield injuries, Pep´s book, ageing squad, other teams investing more and better - Arsenal being a good example. 

All I do know though is that if football carries on the way it is, with state owned clubs flouting the rules and spending whatever they like (on wages not just transfer fees / fake sponsorship deals etc), City could win the league 5-6 years in a row easily and at some point a big, famous club will over stretch themselves trying to keep up and end up in serious trouble or even going out of existence.  If "the product" is stale, people stop paying to see it, people dont watch on TV or pay their subscriptions, this has not happened yet, but it will as younger generations start to lose interest - and I have seen many arl arses like me on here who have said they are done once Klopp goes, a sentiment I also share.

Arsenal deserved to win today (I know wrong thread) and it is nice to see their fanbase get excited that they are on the road to something big, but the truth is they will get nowhere near the title - I hope this post does not age well but I feel it will! 

In terms of the reds, let's stick together and keep behind JK and the boys, they will find their way and will still be playing CL football come next season

[LifelongRed, Sussex]

Klopp the alchemist and the science of Michael Edwards delivered every trophy, despite having the 4th biggest budget and a mid-table net spend.  Giving us several incredible seasons, an obscene win rate.

The EPL is a money league, stand still and you fall behind.  Arsenal, Chelsea and others are all now spending vast sums each window, hey presto, they’re in the top 6 winning almost every game.

Mane was my favourite EPL player, stretching defences, putting opponents on the back foot with his directness and incredible pace with the ball.  Salah and one other dovetailed perfectly with that.  Genuinely, I knew it was a huge loss on hearing the news, to replace him like for like would take huge money or a great coup by Julian Ward.  The first choice midfield is now old, being given the run around by 5 in midfield oppositions with youth/energy on their side.  TAA is now completely exposed. 

FSG run their sports clubs on a balance the books basis, that’s almost unheard of in English football.  They’ve lent big sums for infrastructure at I think a zero interest rate, but they simply don’t do a Boehly, Mansour or Kroenke.

So, we’re at a crossroads, it’s now entirely down to FSG.

1. Do they simply ride this out at they would at their US clubs, just accept nothingness for a few seasons, until the cycle goes the other way? Or;
2. Invest heavily on the playing side with two real quality CM’ers with youth on their side, possible a Mane replacement and possibly a RB?

Option (1) would be a mini disaster, because unlike US sport each season is not a complete reset.  The club would miss CL riches and Bellingham et al wouldn’t have the slightest interest in signing for a losing mid-table club.

I’m praying that FSG support Klopp and know full well that (2) is a must and in January.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

Flawed system… that won every major trophy. Fuck me, I hope we have more flawed systems in the future

You need money to move forward, you should always refresh your team. Bob Paisley understood this and not only were Liverpool ahead of the curve, they spent money relatively more than anyone else.

No one is asking to spend City or PSG level money, but when you see the likes of Newcastle, Fulham, Wolves and Everton buying midfielders that could have genuinely improved our options compared to what we have and having a higher net spend in general, you begin to question their ambitions.

You can't be fuck the Tories this, tax the rich that and then the moment someone criticize a group of billionaires who just happened to own our club, you jump at their throat.

[Schmidt]

So how many players are just out of form and how many of these players are over the hill. All our players look to be declining and showing no signs of turning it around. VVD, Fabinho, Hendo, Salah, TAA, Robertson. Then you’ve got Firmino and Thiago who can’t run anymore?

This is our spine we’re talking about here and they’ve all been woeful. Fabinho Robbo and TAA still have time on their side but the others, I worry about them. Will FSG invest that much in the squad where we can adequately replace all these players?

That many players don't all just decline at the same time. Yes the squad needs freshening up, but there are clearly other issues at play. Unfortunately we've seemingly squandered our one chance to take a breath and recover over the international break.

That said, while we lost today it was against a much better team than what we've faced so far this season and we controlled the game for long periods. For me, we need to get the City game out of the way and then treat the next game as a fresh start, there are plenty of winnable games coming up and our players are slowly returning from injury.

[JamesG L4]

Klopp the alchemist and the science of Michael Edwards delivered every trophy, despite having the 4th biggest budget and a mid-table net spend.  Giving us several incredible seasons, an obscene win rate.

The EPL is a money league, stand still and you fall behind.  Arsenal, Chelsea and others are all now spending vast sums each window, hey presto, they’re in the top 6 winning almost every game.

Mane was my favourite EPL player, stretching defences, putting opponents on the back foot with his directness and incredible pace with the ball.  Salah and one other dovetailed perfectly with that.  Genuinely, I knew it was a huge loss on hearing the news, to replace him like for like would take huge money or a great coup by Julian Ward.  The first choice midfield is now old, being given the run around by 5 in midfield oppositions with youth/energy on their side.  TAA is now completely exposed. 

FSG run their sports clubs on a balance the books basis, that’s almost unheard of in English football.  They’ve lent big sums for infrastructure at I think a zero interest rate, but they simply don’t do a Boehly, Mansour or Kroenke.

So, we’re at a crossroads, it’s now entirely down to FSG.

1. Do they simply ride this out at they would at their US clubs, just accept nothingness for a few seasons, until the cycle goes the other way? Or;
2. Invest heavily on the playing side with two real quality CM’ers with youth on their side, possible a Mane replacement and possibly a RB?

Option (1) would be a mini disaster, because unlike US sport each season is not a complete reset.  The club would miss CL riches and Bellingham et al wouldn’t have the slightest interest in signing for a losing mid-table club.

I’m praying that FSG support Klopp and no full well (2) is a must and in January.

Great post

[Gnurglan]

So how many players are just out of form and how many of these players are over the hill. All our players look to be declining and showing no signs of turning it around. VVD, Fabinho, Hendo, Salah, TAA, Robertson. Then you’ve got Firmino and Thiago who can’t run anymore?

This is our spine we’re talking about here and they’ve all been woeful. Fabinho Robbo and TAA still have time on their side but the others, I worry about them. Will FSG invest that much in the squad where we can adequately replace all these players?

Yes, the whole team looks poor. But we played a CL Final earlier this year. That was months not years ago. I think it's a matter of fatigue. Which is no surprise (if true) since we played the maximun number of games. Now it doesn't help us with so many games coming up in a short space of time.

The issue for me is how we still must rely on Fabinho, Henderson, Thiago and Milner in CM. They are available, so I can’t blame that. But the problem is obvious when we consider that AOC, Jones, Keita and Elliott for different reasons can't replace them week in, week out. We have eight options for CM. Nine with Arthur. We have five for the front three/attacking roles. And despite this it's our CM that is the problem. Behind those nine, we have Bajcetic and possibly Morton. It's a mess that needs to be fixed. Tonight, still annoyed after the Arsenal game, I'd trade 3-4 CMs for a young Wijnaldum.

[JRed]

I think we can definitely start worrying now.

[redbyrdz]

Yes, the whole team looks poor. But we played a CL Final earlier this year. That was months not years ago. I think it's a matter of fatigue. Which is no surprise (if true) since we played the maximun number of games. Now it doesn't help us with so many games coming up in a short space of time.

This is what I don't get. I do understand we carry extra fatigue, our team is getting old, etc, but I don't understand the dramatic drop from nearly winning the league to 10th. It's not losing against a good Arsenal team, we have looked like we forgot how to play football in all out matches this season. The only one we looked normal in was the charity shield, a week later, it had all gone to pot.

[Butcher Knife Roberto]

Some very interesting posts back on page 1 of this thread. I'd like to think that the people who run the club know more about it than a bunch of loons on a web forum, but it appears that the opposite may be closer to the truth than I would like. If they can't see the problems that we do then frankly it's alarming.

[Guz-kop]

This is what I don't get. I do understand we carry extra fatigue, our team is getting old, etc, but I don't understand the dramatic drop from nearly winning the league to 10th. It's not losing against a good Arsenal team, we have looked like we forgot how to play football in all out matches this season. The only one we looked normal in was the charity shield, a week later, it had all gone to pot.

Good players don't suddenly become shit. It looks like they're mentally just shot. No intensity, off the pace. That's the most worrying thing because tactics etc can be worked on. We don't have the issues of covid season to fall back on in the same way and the whole thing looks very worrying. I've full faith in klopp and (just about) the club to rebuild but we face a situation where we actually need to rebuild somewhat

[nerdster4]

I have to say much of it seems psychological .

Like this is the same team which had the most unbelievable second half to a season very recently .

I am ambivalent about the  investment stuff . . We’ve been balancing books for years . We just haven’t done a good job of it this summer . Previously Nunez money bought us VVD , Alisson etc. I just wonder what the best way of spending Nunez plus Carvalho plus Ramsey (plus Melo wages ) money would be . Possibly none of those players . Jesus plus Guimares for example would have been far more useful .

I am also not sure if the Age thing is an issue . City dominated United with Gündogan and KDB.

I just wonder if despite playing out of our skins , losing out on the two big trophies really hurt us .

It’s worth remembering that Fabinho was on the bench , Keita and Jones have not featured this year . This is not FSG’s fault .

The only positives I am clinging onto are
1. World Cup : opportunity to recharge and refocus.  Robertson , Trent & salah especially .
2. Konate coming back solidifies the defence . He was really very good last season .
3. A January signing which actually makes a difference . Even a loan .

We had a shocking season 2 years ago . We came back from it . Then it was a CB issue . Whatever it is this time we diagnose it , and address it

[wemmick]

Old squads fall off cliffs sometimes--even great ones. Happened with the invincibles, too. We need to get younger, hungry players in midfield and possibly defense. We just seem physically incapable of competing at the levels we did before. It happens to athletes all the time. The body recovers from the long seasons, but it loses something, and then players and teammate start making bad decisions to compensate. Henderson, Thiago, Van Dijk, Matip, Salah, Fabinho, and Robertson just look incapable of competing physically. They are a step slow to every loose ball and on every sprint. Klopp plays such a high risk, high reward system that it's biting us hard right now.   

[Gnurglan]

This is what I don't get. I do understand we carry extra fatigue, our team is getting old, etc, but I don't understand the dramatic drop from nearly winning the league to 10th. It's not losing against a good Arsenal team, we have looked like we forgot how to play football in all out matches this season. The only one we looked normal in was the charity shield, a week later, it had all gone to pot.

It could be that all it takes is we lose that edge because of it. We have played a high-intensity kind of football. If we drop off, we suffer.

Because of that we needed to get more players to play in more games. Tsimikas is probably the only one who has managed to do that. Apart from him, it's the same players who play. Henderson and Milner have both been involved in 7/8 PL games. It's to their credit that they're available all the time. By now we should have others who challenge for those roles.

[LifelongRed, Sussex]

This is what I don't get. I do understand we carry extra fatigue, our team is getting old, etc, but I don't understand the dramatic drop from nearly winning the league to 10th. It's not losing against a good Arsenal team, we have looked like we forgot how to play football in all out matches this season. The only one we looked normal in was the charity shield, a week later, it had all gone to pot.

1. No Mane - it changed so much.  Opponents can now relax in defence.

2. Henderson’s finally over the age edge, making the non-spring chicken Fabinho and Thiago also look old.  Most EPL teams, in varying formations, are effectively playing three CM’ers to win the all important engine room battle.  Their 3 or 5 are younger with more energy.  TAA doesn’t now have world class cover.

3. Klopp’s football, unlike Guardiola/Conte/Arteta/Mourinho is based on risk-reward.  An imperfect defence a small price to pay for marauding FB’s and a stack of goals.  For the other managers, defence is a almost an obsession with one or two pivots protecting the defence.  This wasn’t a problem for us with an energetic squad of quality, 18 good to great players.  But father time has caught up, I remember looking at our winning 1989/90 team just getting over the line to the title, and spotting that Arsenal and ManU were investing in top players in their early to mid 20’s.  Whereas Whelan, Hansen, McMahon were approaching 30.  Imho The Moores family read that wrong, I fear FSG have this time around. 

But they’re immensely wealthy and they can rectify this pretty quickly.  In addition, so much of the squad have years ahead of them.  They simply need help in certain key positions.