Author Topic: Grenfell Tower Fire  (Read 137958 times)

Offline AlphaDelta

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #200 on: June 15, 2017, 08:30:57 am »
As you have insight into firefighting could you comment on the number of firefighters that have been involved here? Because as a layman with only very little knowledge 200 firefighters seem to be a pretty low number for a scenario like this. I mean it is a massive building and there was a huge blaze that is still not fully extinguished. Or doesn't it make sense to have more people there because there's only limited room to work?

I only know a bit about how firefighting works here in Austria, but we have a system based on volunteer firefighters, which will will probably be very different to professionals.

Although I am not a firefighter, I have been around the brigade long enough to try and explain.

In the UK the average fire engine is pretty much split into three types - a pump, an aerial appliance and a special appliance. A pump is what most people associate as a fire engine, it is what attends every type of incident the brigade respond to. It carries between 4 and 6 crew and has around 1600 litres of water, a pump capable of pumping water of 1000 gpm. In addition they carry a variety of ladders, including a triple extension ladder measuring around 13.5 metres plus smaller ladders.
The rest of the equipment includes cutting gear for road accidents, hazmat gear, breathing apparatus, environmental protection gear. Pretty much a Swiss Army Knife on wheels.

If a house fire broke out then two pumps would be sent, three if people are reported to be trapped inside. That would bring around 15 firefighters to the scene.

Should the incident require additional resources, be it for manpower or extra equipment, the incident commander will request them. So a request for make pumps 10 will be a request for 8 additional pumps (fire engines) to supplement the two already on the scene. That would be around 50 firefighters.

Additional fire engines such as Turntable Ladders (100ft extending ladder) or Hydraulic platforms are normally sent on request, they normally have a crew of two guys.

Other fire engines are designated for special roles, such as Rescue Units (they carry no water or hose, just heavy rescue and cutting equipment, or additional breathing apparatus sets that have an extended duration of compressed air) and command units.

To put into context the fire at Grenfell Tower, the biggest fire the UK brigades tend to have is a 20 pump fire, that is around 100 firefighters and pretty much as big as it gets. The fire at Grenfell Tower was a 40 pump fire along with around 20 specialist fire engines - something on this scale is practically unheard of.


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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #201 on: June 15, 2017, 08:39:35 am »
I don't know if its about cheap cladding. (for one, we don't know yet if the cladding was a problem).

However over the last years it became apparant that styrofoam used as external wall insulation creates a fire risk, even if treated with a fire retardant. In fact the most common fire retartand releases a toxic gas and has now been outlawed by the EU, but only in 2015. Lots of buildings still have older material in them obviously.

I know in Germany the enhanced fire spreading risk was raised by some affected and with media investigation (Spiegel) from about 2011. The authorities denied there was an enhanced risk, the material had passed all test, etc. It took over 40 fires, some high profile, and multiple fatalities for them to change their mind in 2014. AFAIK there is an EU guidline (not law), not to use this material in building insulation, but obviously it is up to the member states to make that law and enforce it. Given that this is fairly recent in law-making terms, its likely this hasn't happened here yet, or that the refurbishment of that tower block predates it.


This is from memory, unfortunately I don't have a good link for it atm. Those in the building game like Alan X will probably know more about the relevant regulations.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #202 on: June 15, 2017, 08:41:30 am »
There are pictures of fireman crying when their station was closed.


Yeah, they're the images I saw.  Grotesque.  And some DWP moron will expect those guys to get a job stacking shelves in Tescos.  :no
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #203 on: June 15, 2017, 08:42:50 am »
I don't know if its about cheap cladding. (for one, we don't know yet if the cladding was a problem).

However over the last years it became apparant that styrofoam used as external wall insulation creates a fire risk, even if treated with a fire retardant. In fact the most common fire retartand releases a toxic gas and has now been outlawed by the EU, but only in 2015. Lots of buildings still have older material in them obviously.

Well you can expect that decision to be reversed after Brexit.  :-\
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #204 on: June 15, 2017, 08:46:45 am »
People were reportedly renting some of these flats for £2000 a month... the definition of luxury is very loose in London.  Besides, making things look better benefits everyone. 
Just as long as it's not flammable of course

I would guess that most of the tenants were social housing tenants and that very few were actually paying £2000 a month themselves. 
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #205 on: June 15, 2017, 08:54:23 am »
May is going there at some point today.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #206 on: June 15, 2017, 09:05:47 am »
May is going there at some point today.

Unwise career decision.

If this happened in any other country, it would cause the fall of any government.

People must pay.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 09:07:38 am by Commie Bobbie »
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #207 on: June 15, 2017, 09:21:21 am »





To put into context the fire at Grenfell Tower, the biggest fire the UK brigades tend to have is a 20 pump fire, that is around 100 firefighters and pretty much as big as it gets. The fire at Grenfell Tower was a 40 pump fire along with around 20 specialist fire engines - something on this scale is practically unheard of.
I


Back in the 80's I attended a sixty pump fire - it took ten weeks to damp down.

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #208 on: June 15, 2017, 09:22:09 am »
If this happened in any other country, it would cause the fall of any government.

I think that is a bit of an exaggeration?

Although May is a twat, so whatever.
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Offline puroresu_kid

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #209 on: June 15, 2017, 09:24:58 am »
Watching the news last night was just so sad and at the same time so annoying.  I fail to believe a fire of such magnitude couldn't of been avoided.


Offline west_london_red

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #210 on: June 15, 2017, 09:39:05 am »
Watching the news last night was just so sad and at the same time so annoying.  I fail to believe a fire of such magnitude couldn't of been avoided.



Of course it could have been avoided, but like everything it costs money and no one wants to spend it, especially in a block inhabited by what looks like to be mostly poorer people and immigrants. Not the kind of voters the local council probably cares too much about.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #211 on: June 15, 2017, 09:41:24 am »

Offline the 92A

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #212 on: June 15, 2017, 09:41:39 am »
As you have insight into firefighting could you comment on the number of firefighters that have been involved here? Because as a layman with only very little knowledge 200 firefighters seem to be a pretty low number for a scenario like this. I mean it is a massive building and there was a huge blaze that is still not fully extinguished. Or doesn't it make sense to have more people there because there's only limited room to work?

I only know a bit about how firefighting works here in Austria, but we have a system based on volunteer firefighters, which will will probably be very different to professionals.
they had 40 pumps at that job, that is massive resources, to put it into context, there are high rises in Merseyside that have similar cladding and Merseyside don't have 40 pumps, they would have to bring in pumps from surrounding areas like Greater Manchester.  Merseyside used to have 42 pumps that has been cut to the low 20's and further cuts will see the pump covering areas like the City Centre, taken off during the night time.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/firefighter-blasts-government-cuts-cost-6750242
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseyside-fire-engines-cut-42-5907262

The cuts have got worse since these articles from the Chief Fire Officer of Merseyside and FBU Sec of Merseyside were written
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Offline the 92A

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #214 on: June 15, 2017, 09:51:08 am »
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Trada

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #215 on: June 15, 2017, 09:55:48 am »
Shocking if this is true surely it can't be.

 Jack Xatzinikolas‏Verified account @MxJackMonroe 1m1 minute ago

Theresa May is going to visit the Grenfell site 'privately' and is apparently refusing to meet residents.
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Offline puroresu_kid

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #216 on: June 15, 2017, 10:02:07 am »
Of course it could have been avoided, but like everything it costs money and no one wants to spend it, especially in a block inhabited by what looks like to be mostly poorer people and immigrants. Not the kind of voters the local council probably cares too much about.

What about re-housing.  Re-housed in the borough or what I fear re-housed out of London. That wouldn't surprise me.

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #217 on: June 15, 2017, 10:04:28 am »
What about re-housing.  Re-housed in the borough or what I fear re-housed out of London. That wouldn't surprise me.

Well Tory councils do have form when it comes to moving people who don't vote Conservative out of their areas.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #218 on: June 15, 2017, 10:21:52 am »
Interesting report on a similar fire in Melbourne, where no lives were lost.
http://www.mfb.vic.gov.au/Media/docs/Post_Incident_Analysis_for_Lacrosse_Docklands_-_25_11_2014%20-%20FINAL-dd61c4b2-61f6-42ed-9411-803cc23e6acc-0.PDF.

Really interesting Albie. Had a quick skim through and will read in more detail later. One thing that was notable is that sprinklers helped control the fire but the sprinkler system operated beyond it's design capacity which was based on the assumption that any fire will be contained at the point of origin. The Australian code allows for 4 sprinkler heads and 2 hydrants to operate simultaneously. In that fire 26 sprinklers operated on 16 floors and two hydrants were required to extinguish fires not put out by sprinklers.

I'll keep saying it but this needs a full investigation and all issues need to be addressed.
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Offline itsalltosh

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #219 on: June 15, 2017, 10:44:49 am »
Yes a brilliant reply



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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #220 on: June 15, 2017, 10:51:12 am »
Horrible situation. Will wait to comment further on why and ifs and buts as I know distant family who lived there, unfortunately cannot link their story as they sold it to the rag to generate some income now that they have lost everything.


Horrible situation and can't feel like it could have been avoided, the building seems to have had very inadequate fire suppresion systems and incorrect procedure in case of one.

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #221 on: June 15, 2017, 10:57:14 am »
Does anybody feel uncomfortable with the reporting of this?

I watched the BBC News Channel last night for about 20 mins and it made me that angry that I switched it off.  The reporter was really in the faces of eye-witnesses, residents etc and for my mind, asking insensitive questions.

In the 20 mins I saw, I didn't feel like they said anything of real 'purpose', it just seemed to be filler for the most part, hypothesisng on what-ifs.


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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #222 on: June 15, 2017, 10:58:02 am »
I just wanted to say Sky news are utter cnuts. Carrying out their 10 o'clock newscast with the presenter standing in front of the building whilst it's still in flames and full well knowing people are watching with family members still inside is utterly sickening. I have never given a penny of my hard earned wages to sky for their football subs and this just reinforces my intention to never do so. Fuck Murdoch and Fuck Sky media.  :wanker

BBC had Huw in front of the still burning tower last night too.

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #223 on: June 15, 2017, 11:05:52 am »
It's not just housing that we need to be worried about either. Last year the government scrapped the requirement to have sprinkler systems installed in new schools.
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/14710216.display/

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #224 on: June 15, 2017, 11:05:59 am »
A nice extremely lengthy enquiry seems likely. May' s track record would seem to indicate one that takes a few years to even get started.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #225 on: June 15, 2017, 11:06:44 am »
A nice extremely lengthy enquiry seems likely. May' s track record would seem to indicate one that takes a few years to even get started.

Based on previous events, it'll get kicked into the long grass.

Surely enough is enough.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #226 on: June 15, 2017, 11:09:43 am »
Does anybody feel uncomfortable with the reporting of this?

I watched the BBC News Channel last night for about 20 mins and it made me that angry that I switched it off.  The reporter was really in the faces of eye-witnesses, residents etc and for my mind, asking insensitive questions.

In the 20 mins I saw, I didn't feel like they said anything of real 'purpose', it just seemed to be filler for the most part, hypothesisng on what-ifs.

Sky had footage filmed by someone inside the tower, trying to find a way out. About 2 minutes of pretty harrowing scenes but I watched it thinking they would cut to an interview with the person who filmed it after they got out. No, they then say the person who filmed it is unaccounted for. Disgraceful that they chose to show it, knowing that there's a good chance it could have been the poor person's last moments.

It's been a theme of the reporting of recent incidents and it's very distasteful.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #227 on: June 15, 2017, 11:14:13 am »
Sky had footage filmed by someone inside the tower, trying to find a way out. About 2 minutes of pretty harrowing scenes but I watched it thinking they would cut to an interview with the person who filmed it after they got out. No, they then say the person who filmed it is unaccounted for. Disgraceful that they chose to show it, knowing that there's a good chance it could have been the poor person's last moments.

It's been a theme of the reporting of recent incidents and it's very distasteful.

it starting to leave me cold to events that are happening and I don't like that all.

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #228 on: June 15, 2017, 11:21:50 am »
Does anybody feel uncomfortable with the reporting of this?

I watched the BBC News Channel last night for about 20 mins and it made me that angry that I switched it off.  The reporter was really in the faces of eye-witnesses, residents etc and for my mind, asking insensitive questions.

In the 20 mins I saw, I didn't feel like they said anything of real 'purpose', it just seemed to be filler for the most part, hypothesisng on what-ifs.


I agree that some of the questioning is going beyond a line, but it is very important that the survivors and families are heard from. They are the ones with the knowledge of what it was like to live in the tower block and need to be heard- 'narratives' are often allowed to form with no input from people who have experienced what has gone on.

I posted this last night on why uncomfortable reporting should be seen as important:

Brilliant article (yet again) by Tony Barrett:

https://www.joe.co.uk/news/why-it-is-vital-to-amplify-the-distraught-voices-of-grenfell-tower-residents-who-were-ignored-for-too-long-129580

Offline PhilV

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #229 on: June 15, 2017, 11:22:15 am »
It's not just housing that we need to be worried about either. Last year the government scrapped the requirement to have sprinkler systems installed in new schools.
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/14710216.display/

All cost cutting. Fucking tragic, they are playing with peoples lives.  :no

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #230 on: June 15, 2017, 11:23:53 am »
It's not just housing that we need to be worried about either. Last year the government scrapped the requirement to have sprinkler systems installed in new schools.
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/14710216.display/



This country is going to hell. We'll soon have no firefighters, police force, medical or paramedical staff left. But sure, as long as we have loads of bankers and politicians sweeping up their bonuses/expenses/speaking fees...    we'll get along fine.

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #231 on: June 15, 2017, 11:29:55 am »
This country is going to hell. We'll soon have no firefighters, police force, medical or paramedical staff left. But sure, as long as we have loads of bankers and politicians sweeping up their bonuses/expenses/speaking fees...    we'll get along fine.


There'll be plenty of firefighters, police force, medical/paramedical people. You'll just have to pay a fixed fee to have access to them.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #232 on: June 15, 2017, 11:32:28 am »
Really interesting Albie. Had a quick skim through and will read in more detail later. One thing that was notable is that sprinklers helped control the fire but the sprinkler system operated beyond it's design capacity which was based on the assumption that any fire will be contained at the point of origin. The Australian code allows for 4 sprinkler heads and 2 hydrants to operate simultaneously. In that fire 26 sprinklers operated on 16 floors and two hydrants were required to extinguish fires not put out by sprinklers.

I'll keep saying it but this needs a full investigation and all issues need to be addressed.
I think you are right. I've skimmed it as well, number of interesting points, sprinklers worked well but over performed and wind direction helped, had it been in another direction, according to the report. might of 'over powered' sprinkler system. 

However big plus, in my eyes, there was a pressurised stairwell, which kicked in successfully on detecting fire and would have meant the stairs would be smoke free allowing ingress and egress and invaluable for rescue purposes, it wasn't needed in this case but in terms of evacuation if the sprinklers had of been less effective.

Lastly, the 'Alucobest’ aluminium/polyethylene composite panels, and their role in assisting the unusual vertical fire spread, after Melbourne, Dubai and London, need serious look at fire behaviour of any cladding materials in light of their role in vertical fire spread which compromises traditional assumtions about fire spread.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #233 on: June 15, 2017, 11:36:59 am »
I agree that some of the questioning is going beyond a line, but it is very important that the survivors and families are heard from. They are the ones with the knowledge of what it was like to live in the tower block and need to be heard- 'narratives' are often allowed to form with no input from people who have experienced what has gone on.




I agree that families and residents need to be heard, but what do we get from a reporter asking 2 eyewitnesses about people who were jumping because they had no 2 choices....burn to death or hope they survive a 30m fall.....its macabre and sensationalist and seems to be there to fill empty minutes with any moron who wants their 2 mins of fame

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #234 on: June 15, 2017, 11:39:28 am »

Lastly, the 'Alucobest’ aluminium/polyethylene composite panels, and their role in assisting the unusual vertical fire spread, after Melbourne, Dubai and London, need serious look at fire behaviour of any cladding materials in light of their role in vertical fire spread which compromises traditional assumtions about fire spread.

They showed video of a fire in Paris on the news yesterday where the building had the same type of cladding and the fire literally looked like it was jumping vertically up from balcony to balcony much quicker then it was moving horizontally.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #235 on: June 15, 2017, 11:40:42 am »
It's now emerging that the cladding used on Grenfell was an aluminium skin, with a core of polyethylene foam/fibre bonded with PVDF adhesive.

Following a towerblock fire in Melbourne, the city's fire service asked Australia's Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO) to undertake tests on it in 2015, and they found:

"sustained extensive “flaming” after 55 seconds and had to be extinguished after 93 seconds because of “excessive flaming and smoking”."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/property/fears-grow-as-apartment-cladding-debacle-ignites/news-story/22bf66af43cd0c52c91063d8b4b34535

Grenfell was refurbished with the same Alucobest cladding in 2016.

There is a much more fire-safe alternative called Alucobond, which uses a mineral fibre core. But it's more expensive.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #236 on: June 15, 2017, 11:42:08 am »
... Lastly, the 'Alucobest’ aluminium/polyethylene composite panels, and their role in assisting the unusual vertical fire spread, after Melbourne, Dubai and London, need serious look at fire behaviour of any cladding materials in light of their role in vertical fire spread which compromises traditional assumtions about fire spread.


This is interesting regarding Alucobest in Australia back in 2015 ... http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4243787.htm

...MADELEINE MORRIS: So this is the cladding that was used on the Lacrosse Building. The brand name is Alucobest, but there are a number of different brands. On the outside, it's got aluminium, on the inside, it's got a polyethylene, or plastic, fibre. This is the cladding that should be used. It's called Alucobond. Aluminium again on the outside, but on the inside, it's got a mineral fibre core. But, to the naked eye, you would never know the difference.

Melbourne's Metropolitan Fire Brigade asked the CSIRO to test Alucobest's combustibility.

CSIRO REPRESENTATIVE: When we lowered the Alucobest in, because there's a polymer core to the sample, it started to flame at 55 seconds, so it is a combustible material.

MADELEINE MORRIS: 55 seconds to catch fire in a test.

This fire brigade animation shows how the fire, lit by a smouldering cigarette on the eighth floor of the Lacrosse Building, swept up 13 stories in as many minutes. It's running up the cheap, plastic-filled cladding.

MICHAEL O'CONNOR: This product is rife. It's used in buildings throughout Australia. All the information we're receiving, Brisbane, Perth, Melbourne, every capital city, we believe this product is used in many buildings and particularly in high rise buildings.

MADELEINE MORRIS: It shouldn't be. Building regulations prohibit the use of Alucobest cladding on high rise buildings. It is allowed on low rise buildings and that's why it's imported into Australia and easy to buy.

MICHAEL O'CONNOR: The material that's fire-resistant is a lot more expensive than the material that isn't, so if you're a builder and you see two different products, one's a lot cheaper and you get told that it meets Australian standard, you can't blame the builder for going for that product.

MADELEINE MORRIS: The problem is, surveyors may not know if builders have illegally used the flammable cladding on skyscrapers.

SCOTT WILLIAMS, CEO, FIRE PROTECTION ASSOC.: Quite often they're involved sometimes too at the end of the process, and when a building is built, as I said, and the product looks and feels the same, and unless they've got documentation and they've got evidence, really, they're just taking a guess.

MADELEINE MORRIS: And proper documentation about the materials used on buildings is frequently absent....
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #237 on: June 15, 2017, 11:47:57 am »
I agree that families and residents need to be heard, but what do we get from a reporter asking 2 eyewitnesses about people who were jumping because they had no 2 choices....burn to death or hope they survive a 30m fall.....its macabre and sensationalist and seems to be there to fill empty minutes with any moron who wants their 2 mins of fame

I don't think it's necessarily sensationalist. What those people went through was a living hell and I think it's important for that to be conveyed to the public. This is what OUR society has become in 2017 Britain. I think everyone in Britain should know the full consequences of the decisions we've made to get us here. Simply reporting that X number of people have died in a building fire doesn't do that. 

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #238 on: June 15, 2017, 11:49:53 am »
Unwise career decision.

If this happened in any other country, it would cause the fall of any government.

People must pay.

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #239 on: June 15, 2017, 11:50:41 am »
Does anybody feel uncomfortable with the reporting of this?

I watched the BBC News Channel last night for about 20 mins and it made me that angry that I switched it off.  The reporter was really in the faces of eye-witnesses, residents etc and for my mind, asking insensitive questions.

In the 20 mins I saw, I didn't feel like they said anything of real 'purpose', it just seemed to be filler for the most part, hypothesisng on what-ifs.

Yes, very uncomfortable. I wanted to kick the TV last night with some of what i witnessed from the news networks. I'm avoiding watching any of them today fairly depressed with the whole thing.
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